OK, being a cheap guy myself, I don't actually know the commercial costs, but I am afraid that I am not shocked because they would actually do a lot of stuff to create a fancy pond. If the stones are already really big, or they were suggesting big stones, they would probably need to bring a medium sized piece of equipment anyway. I doubt that the hole dig would therefore be a much bigger cost.

None the less, since I am cheap, I would do everything myself, and it is not clear to me that you need to do much just to keep going. I'm not clear on what your pump was Supposed to be doing, but whatever it was, I would remove it and clean it out. I imagine it is all tangled up with roots and crud and could be an easy repair/cleaning. If it didn't go to a waterfall, it can just circulate underwater and avoid all the possibly messed up plumbing. It wouldn't add attractive features but I guess you don't have them now and perhaps don't care. You don't have to use rocks to hide a liner. Plants, both in and out of the pond can hide the liner. I often also use logs and driftwood. I doubt that you really need to move rocks etc, but if you do, hire the local kid.

Hi Chas! Thanks so much for your reply.

Hmmm....So it probably seems silly to spend this much, huh?

Yeah...I am so confused! I know I'm paying primarily for labor. That is always the way it is, isn't it? Could probably buy all the materials involved for $1200-1600 retail. The rest is labor. And "the rest" is a lot of money! (IMHO!).

I try to be frugal and responsible with money too, Chas. That is why I am feeling so torn.

(Sometimes I am tempted to fill the thing with soil and create a flower bed there!).

Yes, I have aquatic plants...they are healthy and nice. But the liner is just not in there right...hard to describe. It needs to be done over...& this fellow would replace the liner with a new one. But liners are very cheap!

Flower bed or pond? LOL! I do like my fish...have even named them! And a really well done water feature is quite special and unique and adds much to an outdoor space (I know...preaching to the choir here!).

Well...I just have to deliberate some more about it over this long weekend. I am not going to rush to judgement. But I want & need to do something before it gets & stays hot and humid. (Sigh....!)

I could just pay the guy the $375. he charges to take out the fish & clean everything really well, and think about it for another year! But then...that doesn't solve the mosquito issue or hide the liner, etc.!

Thanks again!!!

mosquito fish may help with that aspect.

I assume you are talking about increasing pond size to be adequate for "4 large koi and many goldfish"? That would be about 2-3,000 gallons IMHO. Otherwise - I guess Im not sure what exactly are trying to accomplish?? I never quite understood why people want big fish but don't want to provide room to be able to see them swim majestically through the water. Although let me say kudos for keeping them reasonably healthy in difficult conditions. Instead of increasing pond size some people will find good homes for their fish when they outgrow the conditions.

I don't suppose a picture is possible? GardenWeb now allows you to just link to your photo on your computer. Are you completely incapacitated or just not able to lift large rocks? I was trying to suggest that you shouldn't need to do anything strenuous to get your pond looking and working better. If your liner is holding water, I believe it is in there well enough. I have been posting today about pond edges on two threads. I actually have a lot of rocks around my pond and stream but at this point, you can't even see most of them anymore from all the plants and logs. Clean out (free) or buy a $100 in pond pump. You don't even have to hook it to anything to get circulation. Get a neighbor kid to pull out old messed up plants and rocks. Sounds like two or three hundred max.

Thanks for the suggestion, Steiconi!

Kashkakat, due to the pond being surrounded by pavers and mature shrubs (camellias) there is no where to go...no way to enlarge. The koi have lived in the pond at this size for over a decade (previous owner had these fish in a pond in a different place...but their pond was same size as this one!).

The pond fellow/expert person affirmed that they appear to be healthy fish.

The goldfish have multiplied. And mulitiplied!

Ugh, I don't know what to do. Maybe I should just save the money & give up on this pond! The fish seem happy here...but what do I know about fish happiness???

Thanks for all feedback!

Ponds are expensive. The price can drop dramatically IF you are willing to learn, learn, learn and then DIY. What are you willing to contribute in terms of your own time and energy, rather than money? The more you learn about pond construction, filtration, etc. the cheaper it gets because you can do the work yourself and get it right the--well, not the first time, but the second or third time.

One thing you should do is get an air pump and air line and get your water bubbling so your fish have sufficient oxygen. This only gets more important as water gets warmer in summer time. Moving water will eliminate any mosquito problems as mosquitoes want still water.

Then start learning about pumps, pipe, filtration, and see what you can DIY. DIY filters are just as effective as the kind you buy and are a lot cheaper. Leave cosmetic issues like the liner showing for last.

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Thanks again, Chas! Thanks, Hoovb.

Well, you see...

...did all that gobbleygook for the last 8 years, & I am just not good at it! Read & read and tried and bought equipment, yada yada. Really have put much sweat equity into this.

I feel I need someone who knows what the heck they are doing to kick it up a notch. But the pond is dug. The pond is there. I guess I just have a prob with this $4800 figure. Frankly, It seems exploitative, but I don't really, truly know that for sure. I guess. Maybe I am asking/expecting too much!

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The first pic is Spring, the second is Winter. The camellias bloom Nov. to Feb.

I just got a quote for the same thing, redoing my approx 10'x10' x20" deep pond, new filter stuff, add uv filter, fix waterfall. $4400, three guys for 2-3 days. I have done all work on pond by myself in the past, I just dont want to take all summer getting it done! I want it over with and looking good again. But we also need to do some other home maintenance, so my pond may have to wait until fall, or next spring. All the fish and plants seem happy though, it just looks like hell.

I just thought I'd share my quote, sounds like our quotes are insame ballpark at least.

Yes! Thank you for sharing, OOTM! Good to know. Your deal sounds a tad better, imo. Your pond is bigger & your proposal is $400 cheaper. Good for you.

I hear you about attending to other projects. I have other projects to attend to too!

Well, it sure looks good from here. I think plenty of people would be happy to be in your situation. I see that my other posts about logs and vines would be out of place, but it appears that you have some ivy or something draping into the pond and you could hide a lot more liner that way.

If you don't want to do any of the work yourself, how about hiring the older brother of my original suggestion and tell him to see if he can fix the pump or perhaps determine if there is a big clog somewhere by shooting hose water into the disconnected pump line with a cloth jammed in there to seal the area around the hose and pipe etc. It sounds like you made all this yourself and could give some useful advise to your young man of choice. And again, if he can't figure it out, just buy a cheap submersable pump and just let it circulate water below the surface. Then when you have a little more time or find the neighbor is useful, have him construct some piping under some of your rocks to actually create a spillway/waterfall or several Tees with some decorative spitters or a little fountain; or rehook-up your original waterfall (if you had one) with that new piping.

Thanks, Chas.

I think it's time for a new pump & UV light at least.

Never had a real "waterfall," just a trickle fall under that urn.

What do you think about a skimmer box? That needs to be dug underground, I realize.

This 4800 guy was going to create a real 2 ft. tall fall using a Savio biofalls unit.( Is Savio worth pursuing if I do this myself?).

If I keep this DIY, I'd definitely need to find someone to deliver and place additional stone.

This butcher, baker, candlestick maker approach --- That's the Story of my life. Finding helpers, workers, competent people who do what they say they will do and actually show up and all that good stuff. Truly a challenge!

Thanks for the suggestions, affirmation, and encouragement!

Btw...what do you think about $375. for a good cleaning? Pressure washing the liner & rocks (taking out the fish of course!). I think they can do a good job...and that price seems fair to me for that service.

Oh...and I went out & measured...14 ft. long, 7 ft. wide.

Does it look like I have too many fish?

Figure for long term health for koi, 300-400 gallons per koi. I have seven koi 20"-32" in only 2400 gallons, however I have 5,000 gallons worth of filtration.

Is there a koi club in your area? Great way to learn--ask questions and simply listen to everyone, but make your own judgements based on multiple people's comments. Koi people are extremely opinionated and you have to balance out the comments to get the truths for your own situation, because every single pond is different.

It doesn't look like you have too many fish, but it is not obvious how many small goldfish might be in there. I had been thinking about suggesting that you harshly remove a few goldfish if needed. Several of us recently posted about observing that fish initially seemed to multiply but then further increase was prevented. Your statement about 'multiplied and multiplied again' was unusual.

Others here will be of more use about skimmers. I don't have one, partly from inertia and partly because I usually have so many lily pads etc that I don't see how much crud would make it over to the skimmer. If you didn't do a massive cleanup before taking those photos, I don't see why you would need one. I also don't believe that you need to dig a new area. It could go on top of a/the submerged pump.

I was imagining lots of dead stuff in your pond and I don't see that from the photos. I suppose a big cleanup could be useful, but on the other hand, at least regarding the liner, I think some stuff stuck to it looks as or more natural than a clean shiny liner. I imagine that the price is reasonable, but I'm just not sure that it needs to be done.

AND one more time: in spite of frustration or overwhelm, I think it would be hugely wasteful not to check your current pump to determine if it is tangled with crud and vines. It is easy to do and it almost certainly is tangled. It happens to almost every pump. I usually wait until I notice severely deminished flow, but I surprised myself this year and just took my pump apart and removed significant crud before it caused problems. I usually need to do this once a year or so.

So, to recap; if it were up to me, I would clean or replace the pump and either attach it to your spillway with some flex 1.5 inch tubing or whatever you already have. Then I would move some rocks around and add some more ivy, perhaps ask a nurceryman what ground cover would grow some roots into the pond and go back to tending the camellias and other lovely stuff you have and be done with it. If you were lucky it might only cost 50 bucks, or with the neighbor kid you are probably still under two hundred. If you really have to buy a pump, probably some more. I think you have more than enough stone.

$4800 is fine, and the $375 clean out is fine too.

I used to clean ponds for a while and here's the deal...I used vacuums to clean the pond because I think that's just a better way for the pond and fish. And it's a lot cheaper, like $100. Trouble is many people want the pond emptied and "power washed". It makes no sense, but that's what people want. They think it's cleaner.

Same deal with pond building. Do you need a skimmer? You haven't had one and didn't say you wanted one, but you're getting one. Do you need a bio filter? Well you haven't had one for how many years...but now you're getting one. If you have a EPDM liner there sure isn't any reason to replace it, but they will. A 3600 GPH pump for a 2200 gal pond of this type is a lot of pump imo.

The reason you "need" all these things is because...well, that's the kind of pond this dude builds and because most people can easily be talked into buy these things. Just have to say "bio filter will keep your pond cleaner", few people will say no to that even though a bio filter has nothing to do with a pond being clean.

BTW, goldfish eat mosquito larvae. Moving water = no mosquitoes is kind of a myth. Backyard ponds don't move enough water to matter.

UV filters only need the bulb changed like once a year. If the unit isn't broken there's no reason to replace it, other than for whoever is making money on the deal.

If a pump is working it doesn't need to be replaced. Generally if you not seeing a lot of water flow it's other problems, like clogged pump, hoses.

My biggest concern would be are these guys really going to build the pond you want? If you're convinced then $4800 is fine. Check out their work, make sure it is their. I personally don't like the type of pond these guys make, but lots of people do. The only thing that matters is if you like it.

The $375 cleaning thing is something this type is commonly done on a yearly or even twice a year basis. That's the standard practice. Again, I don't care for that myself, but it's common.

Thanks So Very Much!

"...you have to balance out the comments to get the truths for your own situation, because every single pond is different." Great advice for this scenario, hoovb, and for Life in general! Yes...every situation is different. Don't drink the Kool-Aid...Be discerning. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

Chas! Wow. Fabulous information once again! You really get it. I feel you really are understanding my needs and what I find challenging which is really nice. Your insights are spot on & I really like your suggestions!

Waterbug...excellent observations! Amazing information you provided.
Yes, I think between what you had to say and what Chas had to say, I am going to refrain from going with the $4800 makeover & tackle it myself following the guidelines Chas provided.

Thank you Chas and Waterbug and Hoovb!

I am feeling much more optimistic and confident that maybe I can pull this off, thanks to y'all ... and am also feeling quite good about "saving" several thousand dollars!

You know, this "dude's" first estimate was for $7,000! But I told him I needed a revised strategy to cut costs. First, he was going to dig the pond deeper and use a larger pump. He came back with a new price of $5,375, for which he would not be digging the pond deeper & using a smaller pump. I also scoffed at that figure. He then said his bottom line price would be $4800.

I am going to pass...

If you want to hide the liner you can put down 2 rocks that are the size of the rock on top and wrap the liner up between the 2 rocks and over the top of the rock and cap with the big rock on top. Then when the pond is full it will come up over the first layer of rock.

I don't see why you would have to empty and pressure clean your pond. Can't they just vacuum the bottom and do a big water change? Can you get a price for that?

Do you have ponding friends or family that will help you? I know that I would be glad to help someone in my area that needed help. I also 'direct' my family in helping get pond things done.

This year I have added a big pot with water spilling out of it to my small pond. My pump is 20 years old and I have had to change the impeller a couple times but it still pumps just as many gallons per hour. The pot has quilt batting in it with some rocks on top holding it in place with plants in a basket on top of the batting. I have a simple set up and it has worked great for years and years.

I filled my pond in for a couple of years but missed it so much I dug it back out. Best wishes on getting what you want and need done to your pond. It is beautiful and may just need a few tweeks. I know I am forever tweeking.

Hi Frankielynn! Thanks for the suggestions about the stones.

Yes...I am also rethinking the whole "Take the fish out, pressure wash the liner, lalapaloosa" approach to pond cleaning! Given the remarks here, including yours now, I doubt that is necessary. Seems a less intense but still thorough cleaning may be in order and then the fish would certainly be less stressed out (as would I!).

And yes a "pond buddy" is an excellent idea! I shall seek one out! I will go to the pond supply store & see if one of those fellows might (for a fee of course) just come out for an hour & offer their evaluation.

Indeed, hopefully some very simple "tweaking" is all that is needed! That would be great! I feel I really need, up close and on site, an extra hand and extra eyes and thoughts from someone who works with pond equipment and fish and ponds daily ... yes that would be wonderful.

For example, I wonder about the configuration of my hoses & so forth, & can't show pics of ...so someone seeing the nitty gritty of all that would be helpful. They can tell me if I need something extra or not...& they don't have quite as much of an agenda as the pond installer folk. (Whom I don't fault for wanting to make money or run a successful business...but hey... it is my "business" to manage my finances well too!).

So the "pond store buddy" evaluation may be money & time better spent, & probably wouldn't be terribly costly.

Wow, Frankielynn, a 20 year old pump! Energizer Bunny pump!

Your pond is adorable! How sweet that you missed it after you filled it in...and created another! Thank you for your kind words about mine ... and for all your sharing.

I am reassessing a lot here because of the replies I have received ...
... so don't ever think "out there" that your comments fall on deaf ears or they don't really make a difference!

Also, Frankielynn, your little dog is precious! He/she really enjoys the pond too! My cat Jasmine used to love sitting out there near the pond. She never disturbed the fish. She passed away last June ... was with me 16 years!
This is her heading out first thing one fine morning...

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Be careful of pond experts who are actually sales experts. I see this at retail, people who clean ponds and people who build ponds. Problems can always be found and solutions always just happen to be what they sell.

I sold a house in San Jose with ponds. The new owners hired a pond expert to fix the pond...which had been running fine for years. The expert moved the pump from the skimmer to the bottom of the pond and added a crappy mass market filter for a pile of $$$. Month or so later the filter fell apart which caused the pump, now at the bottom of the pond, to drain the pond dry and kill all the fish.

I have a very low opinion of pond experts. You are almost always far, far better off with a little reading and doing very little actual work. Ponds can be easy or they can be hard. It's the owner's choice.

IC, thank you for your kind words. Just one more thing about your old pump. I am pleased that frankielynn chimed in about the 20 year old pump; it certainly helps to support my point. However, at some point (that might be now) it might also be useful to consider energy use. The newer mag drive pumps are more efficient and draw less current. If it turned out that your impeller was broken and was going to be somewhat expensive (I don't know since mine hasn't broken), it could be the time to upgrade to a magnetic drive rather than going all cheepO (like I kind of suggested way up there somewhere; I had just been trying to strongly suggest that you needn't spend much money). OTOH, if your pump is essentially fine, then it takes a long time to make up for spending even an extra $100 - 150.

And then re. pond buddies: I suspect that WBG is right that the actual pond store guys aren't really the ones you want. Unfortunately, I have only spent little time at places like that and also had a garden center that had pond stuff on the side. Therefore I am not really experienced with them, but would expect them really wanting to over sell you (and I can't say I blame them). I think it would be useful if possible to find a popular pond place and ask the clients if one could help you. Or ask friends and neighbors if they know someone else with a pond.

And lastly; One of your pictures did show a pair of what appeared to be perhaps two too small black pipes doing something. I don't have a UV and don't recall how they are set up, but I would assume they are just in line with anything else which in yur case would just be, pump to UV to spillway which is very simple and short but probably bigger tubing.

Hi Inquisitivecat. Wow, what wonderful answers everyone has contributed to your plea for help. I'm agree pretty much with all of the replies and think these folks are awesome. I would like to offer one other point of interest to help you hopefully in your quest for someone to honestly help you. I don't know your location so I'll just say this. Find out if there is a pond club in your area. If there is, go to one of their meetings and observe. Just see if you feel like these folks will help you. Pay close attention to the content of their seminars and see if you observe someone that has the knowledge you're looking for. It may take a couple of trips but usually there will be someone there who will offer to help you whether it be with knowledge or the recommendation of someone who can do the work. I'm here in Texas and I wish I could come and look at your problem. This is how our organization works, we help, not only our members but anyone who needs our help. I'm a hands on kinda gal and I've been learning about ponds, doing research since 1988. Our organization was developed in 1999 because I got sooo sick of bad information and people getting ripped off. I've been the club President for 12 years, took a four year break because my hubby was seriously ill and I'm back at it again. Our policy is lived everyday and I walk the walk. Our folks help everyone that needs a hand and we also help our elderly members if they need their pond cleaned because they aren't able to do it anymore so we believe in charity begins at home. I would start there and see if you can join an organization that will get rid of the $4800.00 dollar man. You may feel inept and I don't know your situation but if its only mind boggling because of the fear of doing something wrong. They can help you hopefully feel more confident and independent. I will say this to add to what everyone else has said. Yes, it needs to be cleaned out and Koi as they get bigger no matter the size of your pond need more room. Goldfish are amazingly wonderful fish but if you find an organization or club, you'll learn all this. God bless you and all the folks here. If you are in Texas, let me know. I can recommend some organizations that will help you.

I am cheap and I have no intention of paying people that much money. Its a small pond..no need for a skimmer box, just keep it clean. I jump into my neighbor's pond with my flat net and clean her pond which is the size of yours. I get the leaves out but I don't scrub because the bacteria on the liner is very beneficial to your water quality. I made a skippy filter out of a big strawberry pot, pea gravel and lots of impatiens. It looks pretty and does an amazing job. Finally, I would get as many goldfish as possible out. Keep your fish numbers low.
But thats just an amateur's thoughts :)
no sense in spending so much when we can do most of this ourselves.

Another source of help might be available in your master gardener's group. We have to do so many volunteer hours to keep up our certification. Contact your local Cooperative Extension and they may have a Master Gardener with a pond who can help you.

My pump is a mag drive and I wouldn't want anything else. The impellers weren't too expensive and easy to change out yourself. I think I ordered 2 for $25 about 10 years ago. I was afraid that I might not be able to get them since the pump was so old so I ordered 2.

One of our local pond stores was owner operated and she was happy to come out and help with problems. She also didn't push new and expensive 'fixes'. She enjoyed her work and people and was happy to 'infect' others with pond/watergardening fever. She had a rack of 'do it yourself' project sheets free for the taking. We moved and I really miss her.

I personally would never skip a skimmer except for really small ponds. Leaves I don't mind. But water can get a film for many reasons including just dust. When the light is right and/or viewed from the right angle it can make the pond look very dirty. Skimmer fixes that.

DIY skimmer is pretty easy and cheap to make. Here's my how-to.

Wow! Thanks everyone.

Was super busy yesterday ... & too exhausted & sore to even pick up my laptop & look at my computer last night ... fun finding your replies this morning!

Inspired by y'all cheering me on ... went out & reconfigured the stones! Took me over 3 hours, but without buying even ONE new stone, hid all but a few inches of liner. I know some plant material can help there.

Just took blood, sweat & tears! To say some of the stones are heavy is an understatement. Pushed and maneuvered them. No way I could pick up most of them.

Cuts, scratches and scrapes, much pouting, & a few tears later...the stone arrangement is just about as good as it can be, "Imho!" LOL! Can't believe this much coverage was possible with my existing stone! YAY!

Jiminy crickets, didn't need to purchase a TON of stone afterall! (Amount the "expert" said I absolutely couldn't get by without!).

I feel so good about this! (Couldn't have done it without y'all!).

Btw...I am 5'2" 108 pounds, not brawny or buff in the least! Have had chronic back pain for 18 years & my new pain syndrome---a frozen shoulder, since last July! I injured a foot last month, but that seems to be healing. (Though this morning is hurting a little again!).

So yes, I am a frail and fragile flower, but otherwise very healthy and fairly energetic. My main "strength" which served me well yesterday is that I am quite tenacious ... like a dog with a bone! (Haha!)

Then went to the pond store and made an appointment with a fellow for first week in June. He'll come over & yes (for a hefty hourly fee) check things out.

Will be mindful of the clock. And no...won't let him sell me products. I only buy fish food there, and most everything else I purchased on Amazon for half their prices!

Waterbug...yes, I will keep your excellent pointers in mind when the fellow comes over. I agree..."Difficult or Easy" is very much a matter of perspective and attitude.

Chas...thanks for the additional info about pumps & your cautionary words as well. Yes, those hoses bother me a great deal. That's something I really want this guy to look at!

Sandy, hi!... Nice to meet you! Yes, I am very appreciative of the wonderful replies, including yours, as I find your story quite inspiring and uplifting! Your organization sounds great! I am sure you make a fabulous President. Lucky group to have you on board in a leadership role. Wish I could join, but I live in Virginia! Will look and see what I can come up. Thank you!!!

Cicadidae...thanks for sharing your thoughts. All makes a great deal of sense! Yes, I hear you about keeping things simple and less costly. I like your approach!

Hi Frankielynn! Great suggestion...will call my Master Gardner group to see if they have any pond people involved! Thanks too, for the additional pump info and for sharing your enthusiasm! You clearly enjoy this endeavor!

Waterbug...thanks again. DIY skimmer? Hmmm....gonna get DIY'd out here, LOL! But Maybe later will feel like I can add that into the mix. Nice of you to let me know about it.