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Ammonia Spike
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Posted by kevip711 8a (My Page) on Sun, May 25, 08 at 22:37
| For the last 4-5 days I noticed my koi were not eating and acting a bit lethargic.. I tested the water and nitrite was low, ph was around 7.6 and then I tested ammonia and it was 1.0 which is really high. I have done 3 large water exchanges but to no avail.. tap water is testing 1.0 and even nitrites was a higher than my pond water so the exchanges arent helping.. I salted my pond today and added alot of those water conditioners you add when adding tap water which is supposed to remove ammonia, chlorine, etc, etc.. but water is still testing high for ammonia and fish are camped out by the waterfall.. I also noticed I recently had the biggest spawn I have ever seen in my pond, with probably millions of eggs everywhere.. my first spawn the koi ate all the eggs within a couple days but this one the koi arent eating, food either.. need some advice, dont want to lose all my koi.. |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Ammonia Spike
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- Posted by jalal z3/Canada (My Page) on
Mon, May 26, 08 at 2:29
| Don't feed your fish as when they are eating they produce more ammonia. I use Prime on my pond but some people like Amquel Plus for neutralizing ammonia, chlorine and chloramines. Do you add the tap water first then the conditioner? I use my sc for water changes as can shut it down, drain it and refill then add Prime. If you can't treat the new water before adding then put the dechlorinator in first before adding new water. If your ammonia is that high you will have to keep doing water changes to bring the levels down. Add an air stone if you don't have one as your fish are hanging out by the waterfall. Is this a new pond? It may not be cycled yet. |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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| No this pond is almost 3yrs old.. I add the Amquel the same time I add the water.. problem is my tap that I am adding is already high in ammonia; which is different as I think my water supply has changed recently... I have two water falls and a air stone already.. I dont know what else to do.. I am really not new to ponding anymore but this new problem is beyond my knowledge as I dont know what else I can do.. I also have a weird foam that is developing by the waterfall, not sure if that is from the dechlor I have added or what.. havnet seen that before... I need help.. as worried about my koi as I can afford to replace them as most are over 15 inches now.. pond is 3,500 gallons and I have 12 koi.. one is one 8 inches but the rest are large.. I have never had this problem before so not sure what to do.. |
Spawn causing ammonia buildup
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| Sorry correction.. cant afford to replace them.. and yes I stopped feeding yesterday.. I am doing everything I know possible.. was thinking of removing some media from my bead filter but not sure if thats the right thing to do.. any advice I am open to any suggestions... I think the water from my tap changed and the huge spawn has caused this.. |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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- Posted by larryl 7 Southern Oregon (My Page) on
Mon, May 26, 08 at 3:00
| I'm no expert on ammonia, so I won't even try to give any pond advice here, but reading your post I'm wondering if your test kit could be giving you a false positive. The fact that your well aged pond and your tap water suddenly show the exact same 1.0 ammonia reading sounds a little suspicious to me. Maybe your test kit is bad. If you have any bottled water you could test it and see if you get the same result. |
Water
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| I did.. I have a salt and fresh water aquarium so I did a control test on my fresh water from the store... It tested 0 for ammonia.. I even poured in the 5 gallon jug into my pond.. |
Water test kit
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| I even didnt believe my test kit... as it was over a year old so I bought a new test kit to test and the same results were basically revealed.. Even with no test kit its not hard to tell there is a problem.. just looking at my koi you can tell there is something wrong.. |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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| This is new to me (I didn't know chloramine would break down into amonia), but I found this. Hope it helps. http://www.australianportraits.com/aquarium/topics/newaquarium/water/tapwater.htm |
Water Chlor
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| Sorry but no it doesnt help.. I already know about Chlorine and Chlorimine, I have treated the new incoming water but it makes no difference.. I am trying to take ammonia and convert it into ammonium for now until my filter can take over and covert it to nitrite then nitrate but for some reason this isnt happening.. I took out some media today as the filter was a bit overstocked and I also took out handfulls of eggs, yes handfulls.. as the spawn produced more eggs than I have ever seen.. fish are all still not acting right or eating.. I guess now I am just waiting to wake up to a pond of dead fish as I have exhausted all known methods to help.. I have tried everything I know.. if anyone has any suggestions I am open to them as I dont know what else to do.. I havent had this problem ever before.. even when just starting ponding when I made tons of mistakes.. |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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| Kevip, My understanding is that when your fish spawn, it will spike the ammonia in the pond. My fish have not spawned yet, that will be soon judging by what is currently going on in my pond. Back in the middle of April, we too had an ammonia spike and the water exchanges were not bringing those levels down. I called a local ponding store and he told me to add the Spring Summer Microbelift. We added this and the results were almost instanteous. The ammonia levels were brought right back down to where they are supposed to be. We have been adding the Microbelift each week ever since and not had any problems with the ammonia levels. Give it a try - and let us know how you make out. Best of luck.
Carolyn |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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| First of all....what is the brand name of your test kit? The reason I am asking is this. When you dump an ammonia binder in the water, the ammonia is bound up and unable to hurt the fish....but it is still there. Some kits can tell the bound from the unbound ammonia and only tell you how much harmful ammonia you have and some kits can't tell the difference and tell you about ALL the ammonia (bound and unbound). Tell me what test kit you have and I'll see which kind of kit it is. Also, it's possible ammonia is still really high. Fish excrete ammonia through their gills. When the ammonia levels are already high in the water, they can't excrete it...so it backs up in their system. When you bind up the ammonia in the water, the fish start dumping more back in, making the ammonia levels stay high. They can only excrete harmful ammonia from their systems when ammonia levels are low enough, which is why ammonia kills fish so quickly. So the first step is lets make sure your test kit is the right kind and we will go from there. |
Test
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| I dont remember the brand of test kit I have but even the ammonia removers say that the test kits will still give false positives on ammonia after adding the ammonia removers. But really it doesnt take a test kit to see the problem with the fish.. its really evident they are all suffering.. Carolyn where can I get this Spring Summer Microbelift?? |
Test Kit
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| Carolyn, just ordered it online.. should get it tomorrow.. I am desperate so paid for the overnite shipping.. hopefuly this helps as I am pretty much out of ideas and things to try.. ccombs1, test kit is Fresh Labs Brand.. |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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| Spring Summer Microbelift is a good product, but it contains NO ammonia binders. It will not help these fish!! Please get a new ammonia test kit...Tetra pond is good. Also get some ChlorAm-X to bind the ammonia. A good place to shop is linked below. They ship very fast and if you live on the east coast, you will probably get your order in the next two days. In the mean time, do a 50% water change to get some of the ammonia out of the water. Check your nitrites. If you have any (and you probably do since ammonia spikes and nitrites go hand in hand), salt the pond to .15%. Add 1 1/2 lbs of salt per 100 gallons to reach that level. This will protect the fish from Brown Blood Disease, caused by nitrites. Please don't rely on microlift to fix this ammonia problem...it is not the right product for this! |
Here is a link that might be useful: Aquatic Eco systems
Microlift
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| ccoombs, I have already done the above.. no change.. the brand is Red Sea, Fresh Labs.. problem with water exchanges is the new water is worse than the water in the pond.. I am getting some help today as it is raining, I have already gotten 3 inches or more of fresh water in the pond which is good as my fish are moving around a bit more now.. question do I let the ph crash or bring it back to the original level.. my nitrite levels are low. Also should I cancel the order for the Microbelift? If its not needed I would rather cancel the order.. |
Order
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| Too late the stuff already shipped.. if its just bacteria it cant hurt to have it on hand to help later or to add more bacteria to the media.. |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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| Rain will cause the pH to crash only if your alkalinity is too low. Do you know what your kH is? The blessing of a lower pH is ammonia is not as toxic. So if you were to add baking soda now to raise and buffer the pH, the ammonia would kill them for sure. But don't let that pH crash! Two types of ammonia test kits are commonly available. The first is based on the Nessler reagent. This kit normally uses drops in a water sample with an associated color chart. The second is a salicylate reagent test that may use drops, powders, or pills and is usually a two step process again followed by a color chart. The Nessler kit provides a faster test but is not compatible with any ammonia treatment chemicals that may be in the water (so you will be reading bound and unbound ammonia). One way to determine which type of test kit you have is that the Nessler kit color chart normally ranges from clear, meaning no ammonia, to yellow/yellowish-orange as ammonia levels increase. The salicylate based test kit ranges from a light yellow, meaning no ammonia, to green/bluish-green as ammonia levels increase. So you need to make sure you have a salicylate type test kit. And you will need to keep binding the ammonia until the problem resolves. Be sure to get some salt in that pond if nitrite is a problem. |
salicylate reagent
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| I have the salicylate reagent kit.. I can get more ammonia binders, the rain helped a bit, and will lay off raising the ph for now unless we have a heavy rain tonight.. So far I was successful lowering nitrites but not ammonia, and I guess I will keep doing more of the same of what I have been doing.. from what I can tell not a single egg hatched in the pond or from the ones I took out and put into my aquarium.. :( |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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| just keep a close eye on pH too so it does not crash. And keep on doing what you're doing....water changes and ammonia binders. Such a shame your city water is so bad...it just compounds the problem. |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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| The only problem I have ever had with ammonia was when I reduced my koi (3 of them at the time) to a 150 gallon stock tank while I expanded my pond. I don't know if you have too many fish, but with the massive spawn they have had is it possible that it is just temoprarily overloaded? Have you thought about running out and getting some containers or stock tanks to house your fish until you figure it out? If this is something you try, be sure to have lids for them with no sharp edges. From my experience, the koi will try to launch themselves out of an unfamiliar tank. Are there any other sources of water in your area? Brad |
Water Source
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| Nope no other water source.. our water comes from the Lake about 2 miles from my house and just seemed to get bad recently as it never tested high for ammonia before.. my fish are large so I cant move them.. also plenty of room for them, I think multiple females all layed eggs at the same time.. What exactly causes the ammonia to spike from a spawn? never really understood why it spikes I just know it does.. |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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spawning makes the ammonia spike because of the huge release of fishy bodily fluids into the pond. How are the fish this morning?
Can you contact your local water department and see if they have done something different recently? Sometimes if they are doing construction and have to break into a line they "supercharge" the lines after with much higher doses of chlorine or chloramine. If that has happened recently, it's possible that the amount of dechlorinator you added was not enough to handle the water treatment the city added. |
Changes
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| Yeah they are building a huge mall complex close to my house, the pumping station is also close to my house as well.. Not much change in the pond as I took a quick peek this morning.. still hanging out by the waterfall with pretty much no movement.. the only difference is not all the fish are huddled together anymore.. some venture out around the pond but there a few fish that seem to always be camped out by the bigger of my two waterfalls.. one is a female that layed most the eggs and the other is my very large Ochiba.. Will put that stuff I bought in this evening and do a water exchange and dechlor and ammonia and a bit more salt.. I hope this doesnt happen again and this thing clears up soon.. should I shop vac out the remaining eggs as I dont think they are going to hatch? |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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| yep...by all means get as many of the eggs out as you can because as they decay, the ammonia levels will only go higher. And since you do have major construction nearby, I'd get yourself a chlorine test kit and test the city water for chlorine and ammonia every time you add water new water to the pond. Some days you may have to add a lot of dechlor, some days not so much. What a pain...I sure am glad I have a well. |
Microlift
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| Sorry Carolyn but that stuff you bought I actually already had.. guess I should of read the label before ordering as it was basically a waste of money.. I talked to our water supply techs here and got readings on the water and their readings does not include both variations of ammonia.. I shocked my pond today and all seemed well as the fish started acting normally and ate some.. but weird as about a hour or two later they are back huddling again by the waterfall.. I am lost on what to do.. ammonia now reads lower than 1.0 now, nitrite is 0 and ph actually went up to 8. I also have another problem as another female is about to burst with eggs.. I cant catch a break.. but so far no lost koi which is good.. still open to suggestions on what the heck is going on with my pond.. what else can I check or adjust.. I am going to lower my ph tomorrow but other than that I dont know what else to do.. I also bought a high volume water filter for the tap going into the pond.. |
RE: Ammonia Spike
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- Posted by drh1 z4 VT (My Page) on
Sat, May 31, 08 at 23:23
A couple of comments that might help: a.) It is possible to strip ammonia out of solution using a bubbler. The more air you add, the finer the bubble size, the faster you can strip it out. To be effective (for ammonia stripping) the pH must be above 7 and preferably higher (8 or even 8.5). The downside is that this also coverts the ammonia from ammonia ion to ammonium hydroxide as you cross the point where the pH equals the equilibrium constant (don't worry about what it is! :-) ). So plopping in a bubbler won't hurt your fish and may actually help a bit with getting the ammonia down. b.) It sounds as if your biofilter is not up to the task of keeping up with the rate of ammonia production. You may, for protection in the future, want to consider expanding/adding on to your biofilter capacity. c.) Your tap water (you indicated it is from a municipal source) should NOT have ammonia in it. If they are attempting to create chloramines in the water they often will add ammonia to the water in the presence of "free chlorine" to create chloramines. If no "free chlorine" is present then you'll only be adding ammonia. The presence of nitrifiers in your drinking water line will actually degrade chloramines with the possibility of creating nitrites and ammonia (this is a headache for most municipalities trying to maintain chloramine residuals - see reference below). I'm not sure if this is directly applicable to your problem. d.) You can add more ChlorAm-X than just the stoichiometric amount to lock up additional amounts of ammonia to be released. I have not seen any published values for upper toxicity limits but a factor of 2x probably would be reasonable without major consequences. A biological control alternative is the introduction of something such as water hyacinths or water lettuce. The root mass offers, as a rule of thumb, 10x the surface area of the amount of plant occupying the surface, i.e. 10 square feet of hyacinth floating on the surface will have at least 100 square feet of root-mass-surface area in the water. The roots not only absorb nutrients but provide the surface area for nitrifiers to grow and help convert the ammonia. Maybe you've already got your pond loaded with these plants. e.) If possible check your dissolved oxygen levels in your pond as well as the temperature. As you know at warmer temperatures oxygen solubility decreases. Part of your fish behavior might be a coincidental side effect that you have low D.O. levels hence they hang out near the water fall. Furthermore, nitrifying bacteria require oxygen-rich environments to convert ammonia. Too low an oxygen level, no conversion (check to see if your biofilter is clean,i.e., not too much gunk in it and also check the D.O. levels going into and coming out of it to make sure adequate D.O. is present). Using a bubbler will help you if you've got a problem. However, if you're within 95% of saturation for D.O. - for your water temperature - then don't bother with additional aeration since you'll be just throwing $$ into the water with no significant impact except that it will help with stripping out the ammonia as I indicated in (a)above. Hope all this helps. Good luck.
---David |
Here is a link that might be useful: Nitrifying bacteria and chloramine - example paper
Spike
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| Already have a bubbler in the deep end.. I bought zeolite ammonia cancelling type rocks today and bagged them and put them in the skimmer.. Ammonia levels were always fine until the spawn.. and like I said I am about to have another.. I also lowered the ph today to about 7.7 or close to it.. Nitrite is still 0 and I got ammonia down to .5. Water from the utilites or tap is testing .5 to .7 from what the techs at the water plant told me but I think theu are only testing bad ammonia and not both types.. which is the reason my tests are coming up 1.0 from the tap... The plant you mentioned I dont think I can add as I think its illegal in my state but I do have lilies.. which cover about 20% of the pond. In the evening my koi seem to be ok as temps come down but all day and after a small feeding they go back to dormant like behaviour and hanging by water flow areas in the pond.. not sucking O2 just next to high flow areas in the pond.. Also my bead filter is rated for over a 5,000 gallon pond so not sure I can expand this as my pond is only 3,500.. How do I check if my bead filter is clean? Its always full of gunk as I have two mixed media in the filter but it agitates fine when I use my blower. Also how would I clean it if it is messed up.. taking out all media would be bad as I would be taking out alot of the good bacteria.. If you want to see some old pics of my pond you can go to www.kpetitto.com and click on the koi pond link.. there is a pic there of my filter and equipment.. |
Thanks
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| Thanks all for all the advice, emergency is over and pond has returned to normal.. now just have to clarify the water a bit.. |
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