Nancy, That epoxy works very good, and does work under water. If you can drain the water down to the leak and seal it with PL Roof & Flashing Urethane sealer sold at Lowes & H.D. About $5 a tube.
It is inert after it cures and fish safe. If you can't drain it that far for 24 hours, then I guess go with the epoxy putty. It works great and seems like the simplest route, but may not hold long term to the liner.

Thanks for the tip. I actually have a couple of tubes of the epoxy, but what I might do is get the product you suggested to use on the inside in the pond, and the epoxy to seal it from the outside, the dirt side. Or vise-versa Double whammy.

For a flexible liner, the PL is really the best. It is designed for use for rubber and EPDM. EPDM is actually for roofing material and then the ponders started using it (Thank Goodness) because it is also fish safe. The PL seal is flexible, just like the liner and will shift with it during any temperature change.

What a relief Nancy to have found the leak! However, I think a bulkhead fitting on a flexible liner pond is always going to be a problem, unless you have made allowances for that. They require a strait, hard surface to keep the seal. I think pipebooting the PVC pipe is a better option. It may recquire a bigger pipe thru the pond to use the hole you already have, but you can then reduce the pipe with fittings to tie in with your plumbing. Just my advice. :)

Lisa

Lisa, the pipebooting is actually a good idea, one that I considered at the time of installation, and is something I will keep in mind for the future, if this continues to be a problem.

I got to say guys I am completely demoralized, I taped and siliconed the heck out of my pond and I still have a significant leak. At this point I dontknow what to do, All I can think of is it might be the bottom drain fitting that connects to the skimmer. I loosened it a bit because I was planning on taking it off to get a better surface for patching the rest of it but was unable to unscrew it any more so I gave up. I just wish I knew someone who could do it for a reasonable price.

If you know where the joints are for you plumbing (if there are any) you might try digging down far enough to see if there is any wet soil. Otherwise, I'm afraid you might be right about the BD. They don't usually leak, but like everything else, they definitely can.

If you decide to reset the BD, instead of silicone you might try the PL that woeisme recommended a few posts up. I tried it, and it is a very good product.

Duddly,

I thought I posted this last night, but it seems to have not made it? Here is a good link to troubleshooting pond leaks. Hope it helps and you find your problem area.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pond Leaks

Its a horrible situation all around, the skimmer box is hugh and in a very tight space, therefore its hard to see anything around the box itself. 2, I know where the leaks general area is, problem is its quite a large area.

3, seemingly all the patching i put down dont stay. I even use firestone liner primer to help but that doesnt even work.

I just wish to God I had a professional do it originally.

I love my pond so much, but as long as Ive had it Ive never been able to enjoy because this crap is always hanging over my head.

Duddlydoright,
Lets see if we can figure out what you are doing wrong with your patching. Since I am certified by Firestone on liner installation and seaming. Patching liner is very easy. First the liner must be clean and dry. Then clean the liner again with charcoal lighter fluid and a rag or paper towel. Let it dry then put a layer of the primer down that is larger then the patch that is going to be down. This should be applied with the proper applicator. This should be allowed to dry until it no longer strings when you touch it. The patch should then be applied which is normally a piece of cover tape. This patch needs to be rolled. Once this is done the patch can then be submersed. It will continue to cure for about 24 hours. If done correctly it is almost impossible to remove this patch. It will not fall off by itself. Most seams or patches done by homeowner I can usually pull them off by hand. One done right is pulled apart with a piers little piece by little piece.
Mike

well, like I said, the problem with this skimmer is its in a horrible spot.

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/?action=view&current=100_1331.jpg

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/?action=view&current=100_1328.jpg

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/?action=view&current=100_1327.jpg
http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/?action=view&current=100_1359.jpg

Okay you have a PondSweep 702F skimmer. It was manufactured from 1999 to 2004. It was made in Yorkville,IL. If that is the original pad holder and pad in the picture then it was made in either 2003 or 2004. It is an excellent skimmer that is made out fiberglass. Looking at the pictures it looks like there is plenty of room around the skimmer. The first thing I would look at if you live in a cold climate is where the 3/4" PVC pipe support fits into the skimmer. I have seen ice build up in the pipe and crack the side wall of this skimmer. If not dig down by the bottom drain pipe going through the liner and see if it is wet there.
Mike

The leak is somewhere on the right side of the skimmer where the liner is crinkled. I just tryed tightening it to see if that would fix it but it just loosened up and the liner pulled out. So now I am draining it back again! Ill let it dry and assess it then. I think I am going to reposition the skimmer so the front faces the natural position of the liner. I also think I am just going to scrap the bottom drain altogether, we never got any use out of it anyway. I wish you lived closer, Id by ya a 24 back and dinner and wed knock this out in a day. Anyway. I never knew you had to let the primer dry before applying the tape. Does it matter?

I kind of need to know whether or not i can patch the existing hole in the fiber glass skimmer box with seaming tape?

Duddlydoright,

First yes you have to let the primer dry to the point where when you touch it you don't get any strings of primer lifting up when you pull your finger away. Depending on the temperature this could take any where from a few seconds to 10 or 15 minutes. Second you don't want to put too much on or not enough. So you don't want to use a brush or a rag to apply the primer. Firestone will tell you to use their applicator but you could also use a scotbrite pad.

Do not remove the bulkhead in the skimmer where you bottom drain enters. To close off this opening just screw a 2" PVC pipe plug into the threads in the bulkhead. Make sure you use teflon tape on the threads of the plug.

I am not sure what you mean by the liner is crinkled. If the liner has a fold or wrinkle where it attaches under the face plate on the skimmer it will not seal. If it is wrinkling when tightening the bulkhead going thru the liner it will pull out of the bulkhead. If this is the case you need a washer to go between the nut and the liner. The rubber gasket on the bulkhead goes between the face of the bulkhead and the liner. If you don't have a washer on the back side of the liner in between the liner and nut the liner will twist when tightening the nut. You can make a washer out of any flat piece of plastic that is large enough to put a hole thru that is the size of the O.D. of the bulkhead.
Mike

the primer is used because the surface isnt clean, correct? what do u use to clean the surface just water and a hard bristled brush? I can post more pics if it would help.

No the primer is not used to clean the rubber. I use water and a scotbrite pad. Then I use charcoal lighter fluid to finish cleaning. The primer actually allows the tape to chemically bond to the EDPM.
If you can post a close up picture of the area that you are talking about I can probably tell you how to correct it.
Mike

Ok , will post some tomarrow, thanks for all the help dude.

I wasted a lot of the primer, i have like a quarter of a quart left, hopefull that will be enough. Its a pretty large area./

Just a tip to get the EPDM clean. I used just water and a microfiber towel, then I used some PVC cleaner and that really got the EPDM clean and it dried very quickly. Acetone would work also. I'm sure the Pro's suggestion of lighter fluid is the best, just chimming in.

problem is there is built up algae on a lot of the area and water and a brush doesnt do the trick

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/Picture007.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/Picture006.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/Picture005.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/Picture004.jpg

I know how I would fix it if I couldn't just put a new liner in. I would just seam a new piece of liner in that whole area and do away with all the patches on top of patches. But that is not the easiest thing with only one person. How big of a pond is this? How much area is there patch on top of patch?
Mike

there is probably 2 o3 areas all on the right side that are patch on patch. Most of the original patching took, just the areas near the bend in the liner and the bottom drain were always iffy.

6000 gallon around there pond.

duddlydoright, you would be better of, to fly Mike in from Illinois, to where ever you are, for a day and just replace that liner.
How did it get so beaten up?
"Horton"

The guy I had put the plumbing in, who was recommended by the guy I got my supplies from, did a fine job putting it in, but the problem is he put the skimmers in far to low. So we were forced to try and fix it ourselves. Needless to say its been a very trying experience ever since.

http://cdn.pondliner.com/downloads/pondgard_liner_patch.pdf

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/Picture005-2.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/Picture003.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/TheGo0dGuy/Picture001-1.jpg

Aa before, I am going to have trouble getting a flat surface. I guess Ill just have to try my best .

Do you use double sided tape mike?

Double sided tape as it's uses but seaming and patching is not one of them. It can be used to hold two pieces of liner together while seaming. If I needed to do that I would use primer on both surfaces and stick the two surfaces together with the primer by itself and cover tape over it. The only time I have used double sided tape is with doing inside corners.

The patching instructions from Firestone is good. If you go on the Firestone specialty products website you will find instructions on every type of seaming and liner work.

Picture 001-1 I am not sure what I am looking at. I can tell it is the backside of the liner but it looks like it is two pieces of liner. Maybe you can tell me what I should be looking at.

In picture 005-2 it looked like there are a lot of patches on the liner. Am I correct that a bulkhead that went thru the hole in liner and that was used for the bottom drain pipe. In that picture I see one area that is a probable leak. I can not tell if any of the patches was leaking. You can look at the edges of the patches and see if any edges are not sealed tight to the liner. Look closely at areas where one patch goes over the edge of another patch. The area that I see as a probable leak is where the face plate of the skimmer on the lower right corner goes over a patch on the liner. Because of the difference in the thickness in the area being sealed it is very very difficult to get enough pressure even enough to seal the liner to the skimmer. Then add the way the baffle on this skimmer is installed under the skimmer face plate and liner and it might be almost impossible to get a seal. Then add to the problem how close the second from the corner bottom screw is to this patch and it is even harder.

Nancy I am sorry for hijacking your post.
Mike

No problem, Mike. My repair is holding, for the moment, so if this thread can help you, go for it.

given the new photos you make it sound like I am screwed.

Duddly......if I may interject and add a thought to Mike's advice.
The patching or seaming is best done where the liner can be laid out as flat as possible on a concrete surface or on wooden boards.
Any wrinkles at all in the repair/seam area, will cause the repair/seam to leak.

Is it possible for you to position a backer board behind the area you want to patch and have some one (or two) assist you in keeping the liner flat as you install the patch/tape.

I would tend to go for splicing a completely new section of liner into the damaged area, using splicing tape, cutting out all the area where the previous patches are.
As Mike pointed out with the difference in the uneven thicknesses, due to the patch upon patch repairs, that you have now, it will be really difficult to make a proper repair in situ.

The essential part to this, is having the liner laying/positioned completely flat, backed against an even, solid, surface. And the repair area, must be squeaky clean, before you attempt to prime it and splice tape in a new section of liner.

I hate to say this but I think after looking at the photographs, you may have to bite the bullet and pull the liner out to where you can work on it properly or you will be back to square one with the leaks.
"Horton"

If you are saying that you are screwed because of attaching the skimmer at that part of the liner. That problem is not that big a deal. It can be corrected by putting liner tape in all the areas that the patch is not. Just do not over lap the tape. That way you will get even pressure on the silicone seal.
I would have to guess that there is patch on top of patch because you thought that there was a leak with the first patch. Now we have to figure out what besides the skimmer seal was leaking if anything. Why were all the patches put there in the first place?
Mike

Like I said, I had to raise the skimmers at least 1 foot due to the poor installation of the guy we hired originally. Most of the original patching went smoothly because we took the box out. Over the years, and many leaks later, I would add patchs where I thought the Leak MIGHT be coming from. Most of the patching is only 1 layer, its just 2 or 3 areas on the right side of the box that have looked problematic. I think that the problem most likely lied with the bottom drain hole but I never can tell.

Like I said, Most of the patching on the left side looks really really solid. I just patched the old weir hole and it looks really good. But that area was the least of my worries, the other areas are very hard to get to a flat surface.

well i patched most of it tonight, some good some bad, the liner didnt stick the best in places but the seaming tape made me feel a lot better.

I honestly dont know if I can take another pond fill and have water behind my skimmer box again.

Mike, do you put anything over the seams of the seam tape? I am going to use silicone, but I have heard of lap sealant. No dealers carry it around here and the one that used to said it didnt work very well.

The patch looks ok, but there are crevaces in a few p[laces

Silicone will not work. I have used lap sealant before on certain applications. I would agree with the dealers that you talked to. The product that I would suggest would be CIM 1000 trowel grade. It works great as long as it is mixed and applied correctly.
I am not sure what you meant in this statement. " the liner didn't stick the best in places but the seaming tape made me feel a lot better". If you are saying that primer didn't hold two pieces of liner together too well then that is correct. It will not seal two pieces of liner but it does hold together until the cover tape can be used.
Mike

Thanks Mike, is this what you are talking about http://www.lowes.com/pd_239232-27977-23711_0?productId=3172833&Ntt=cim+1000+trowel+grade&Ntk=i_products&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0_s?newSearch=true$Ntt=cim%201000%20trowel%20grade$y=8$x=43

Also, is there a specific type of seaming tape you use or does it matter.

As for the trowl grade, if I apply that to the tape seams there should be no chance of leak right?

Also, I was talking to a relative of mine who runs a construction company. He spoke of some sort of compound that you can toss in the water that finds the leak and plugs it. Have you ever heard of this or used it?

No not at all. The product that I am talking about will cost about 12 to 15 times that. This is the product that I was talking about http://www.cimindustries.com/excluded/black/1000TG%20Coating-PenetrationsJointsCracks.pdf.

I usually use Firestone 6" cover tape.

If mixed and applied correctly that will seal the joint.

Yes there are a lot of products that will do that. The problem is most do not work that good or are that permanent.

Mike

Any last minute tips on skimmer installation?

well, the large on is installed. I used the ul sealer around the tape edges like someone suggested earlier. Hopefully that will help things along. The tape seemed pretty solid on all of the patch. I even did one on the back side.

I had some trouble sealing the weir like you said mike, I had to find some screws with washers and that took time, I just hope the silicone didnt set before I screwed them in and stuff.

I actually fould an 8th inch puncture on the plant shelf in front of my smaller skimmer, so I was happy i found that.

Mike,

I patched everything, it was solid, everything was holding together, went through all the steps.

There is still water behind the skimmer box, and I dont know its from the leak, or the pocket of water that was in the center of the pond under the liner.

My bottom drain never was below the liner, so there should be no risk from leak there.

I figured the water that was trapped in the center of the pond was pushed up to the skimmer box, is that a safe assumption to make?>

Yes it could be that but it could also be a leak. Is the water around the skimmer about the same level as the water in the pond? Try locking the skimmer door closed and see if the water level in the skimmer holds.
Mike

No its not.

Ive always heard that the water level only rises to the level of the leak, is that true?

well, there is what looks like a damp area around the weir opening on the inside of the liner. I would bet their is a leak there, but I dont really feel any wetness it just looks wet. Is there a way to fix that without draining the pond and disassembling it again?

I dont know what the deal is with these skimmers, they are unbelievable, the water level behind the little skimmer is now down to a minimum and the big skimmer level went down a good half an inch. If there was a leak why would it fluctuate so much?