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lisa11310

RIP little frog & can this happen?

lisa11310
13 years ago

Yesterday I was around the pond off and on throughout the day. I noticed 2 little frogs 1.5" and 2" comfey on a floating bucket with alge on it. The larger one was slightly over the smaller one as if in a cuddling mode. They were there all day and when I went in for the night. Today the smaller frog is dead in the same spot. Ther are no marks or any obvious reason for it's death. Could the larger frog have know the smaller frog was ill and stayed with it? I know Geese do this and some other species. These are both little green frogs, the larger not large enough to try to eat the smaller.

Comments (9)

  • goodkarma_
    13 years ago

    I think it is possible but don't really know for sure. When one of my Koi was ill the other two would rush over when I cast a shadow on the pond and stay above her. They were hiding her. Happened many times.....and when she recovered they stopped doing it. Sorry about your little frog too.

  • ccoombs1
    13 years ago

    While it is a nice thought that cold blooded animals feel protective towards each other, most simply lack the brain material to feel emotion. Emotion is a very complicated Most of the actions in fish that we thing are emotional are actually in response to instinctive drive. For example....fish want to stick together in schools. It is their instinct to do so. If one fish is sick, other fish will often stay by it because their instinctive drive is to stay together in groups. If something disrupts the school (such as a sick fish trying to isolate it's self), they do whatever they can to restore order and keep the school together. There is safety in numbers and they want to keep safe. When our fish seem to come running to greet us, it's not because they love us but because they have come to learn that we are a source of food.

    Here's the reason why. Humans and other warm blooded animals have massively enlarged cerebral hemispheres that are mainly an outer layer of neocortex. Conscious awareness of sensations, emotions and pain in humans depend on our massively-developed neocortex and other specialized brain regions in the cerebral hemispheres. Cold blooded creatures have no neocortexs and very small cerebral hemispheres, and rely on their brainstem for nearly all aspects of their being. Of all the cold blooded creatures, a fish's brain is the least developed. They are simply not capable of feeling sympathy, empathy, love, hate, friendships, or any other emotion.

  • lisa11310
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Thanks! I guess I will take comfort in knowing that the little guy didn't die alone even if the other frog wasn't aware of what was hapening. I't really did apear to be protecting it. Ccoombs, you may be able to answer an earlier question of mine about wether or not I should remove the frogs and take them down to the marsh or let them leave on their own. My pond is very heavy with fish and I am afraid if lots of frogs try to overwinter it will push the pond over the limit and I will lose my 10+ year larger fish (and maybe everything else). I would love for the frogs to stay but I assume they put out as much waste as fish right? The pond will be frozen for the better part of 4 months, no water changes with just a small plate size hole. If we lose power it could be frozen shut for a few days.

  • ccoombs1
    13 years ago

    Well, I am not a frog expert by any means, but my gut tells me they will fare better in the swamp where they can bury themselves into the mud for the winter. Ideally, your pond bottom should be as clean as possible heading into winter. Frogs aren't crazy about that....they like stuff to hide under. I don't think a frog would add much to the waste load in the winter because they won't be eating, but if they were to die in there, they would begin to decay and that would make ammonia levels go up.

    If your pond is overloaded, the best thing you can do to help your fish is to just make sure that pond is as clean as possible. No decaying leaves or plants, no rocks that are loaded with fish poop from all summer long.

  • koifishies31
    13 years ago

    Usually, animals wouldn't eat something that would constitute as high risk, low reward. I am not aware of frogs eating other frogs and I can only think of a few animals that would actually kill for sport (eg. house cats & wolverines).

    I'd like to think that the bigger frog was there to comfort the smaller on, but of course, science would prove me wrong. However, there might be some behavioral or survival explanation as to why this occurred. Like for instance, it is in the best interest of some animals to make sure other members of their group (when and if they belong in them) survive. This increases their chances of survival too and so they engage in acts that would seem altruistic to us.

  • ernie_m
    13 years ago

    My friend "Big Froggie" is now on his 2nd year with me and as big as a man's hand. This spring I got 3 more tadpoles. One morphed and I think it left the same day. Another spent the last 2 months in my plant only pond just next to the main fish pond where Biggie lives.

    One night I found Big Froggie in the pond where little froggie lived. I haven't seen the little guy since.

    Now Big Froggie's favorite catch is not bugs, but birds! He's a green frog and not a toad, but he still takes em, even when they are too big to swallow.

    I caught him once all splayed out and hunched over a small bird half in his mouth, so I know he takes birds. Plus I've found two heathy looking birds (except having a serious case of the "deads") floating in my pond this year.

    I'm sorry to say it's possible the big guy was attacking the little guy, but I don't see how holding it down would kill it. I would have separated them anyway.

  • comettose
    13 years ago

    Frogs eat anything that moves and fits in their mouth or partially fits in their mouth. That includes other frogs.

    Frogs that overwinter in most ponds just sink to the bottom. They don't need anything to burrow in (like mud). They might go near plant roots or some structure of that nature. it has to not freeze to the bottom and a open area all winter is necessary unless the pond is huge and very deep.

    American and Fowlers toads do not live in ponds except to mate and will bury in the ground for winter but also enjoy a place to shade themselves and keep moist in hot summers. If they happen to bury in a bad location or a big freeze goes deep into the ground they don't emerge. Many die this way.

    Leopard frogs like to be near ponds and are born in ponds but they also go far from the pond into fringe areas. They are not as tied to a pond as the bullfrog or green frog.

    Frogs eat birds also - I've seen it. It is a matter of size. Bigger eats smaller. Snakes eat frogs and frogs eat snakes. Big birds eat both. Frogs do not eat fish underwater but will eat a fish that is stranded or caught somewhere flapping around (out of water or partially out of water). What they don't do is swim completely underwater gobbling up fish. Herons eat everybody (snakes, frogs, fish). I've seen Eastern Garter snakes go in my pond and I think they are after snails but I would not put it past them eating a fish if they can catch it. I have no water snakes thankfully - they have a nasty disposition. Thankfully I get no snapping turtles but an occasional painted turtle will visit and leave again.

  • pondbucket
    13 years ago

    A neighbor friend is a curator of herpetology; he is the expert among experts on frogs, toads, and the like. I've enjoyed it when he has come over to ID my many pond visitors.

    Earlier this year I was sickened by the many toads that I was finding around the banks, in my skimmer box, and in the water of the pond -- dead. They had laid tens of thousands of eggs before they died. When I remarked that I would see them just the day before mating one on top of the other, he told me a story about their habits. According to him it was quite common for toads (& I'm going to assume frogs as well) that they, incidental to mating habits, drown each other. The toads are driven by instinct to engage each other (as to mate) and they lock on so tight that they drown without knowing better. (I forget what he called the harmone-like stuff that they produce within their bodies that enrages them).

    He even said that it wasn't uncommon for two males engage in this activity because of the chemical secretion taking place.

    Your pond critters may have just fallen to this type of activity. Sorry for the loss. I think this is why they have to produce so many eggs -- survival of the species.

  • lisa11310
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Thanks folks, Comettose, was wondering where you were. The larger part of the pond is just one of those little 500 gal preform dealies. There will be plant pots on the bottom and I have a bubbler going all winter to keep an open space. However it is not un common to lose power and have it freeze shut for a day or two. UUUGGG I am not ready for this!