If you used to run in the winter but gave it up, what experiences did you have, why did you give it up?

Thanks for the input.

So, every winter I drop the hose that normally feeds the waterfall and stream into the pond to circulate the water, cover the pond and hope for the best. So far, in 4 winters, I haven't lost any fish and the pond hasn't frozen solid, which really surprises me. I guess between being in the ground, being covered, having the water circulating, and being in the sun on sunny days, I've been lucky.

Sure would love to have it run all winter, though.
Anne

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Hopefully everything in pond, streams, piping is adjusted and set-up to avoid or minimize most common problems.

I installed two portable spotlights aimed over the pond and up the streams so I can check things out easily. If the lights go out, I sure hope Plan B works.

Mike

The other is pump 750 gph (40 watts) that pump is in the main part of the pond, on the back wall.

We have been running the back pump for a few years now, this will be our first winter running the pump on the dog leg as well.

Joann

Joann

Joann

--Heather.

Joann, I always LOVE seeing pictures of your beautiful longfins! I can only hope that my longfins (not yet a year old) will grow as gorgeous as yours.

This is my first winter running and have experienced everything from chilling overnight single-digit freeze to several inches of snow to days above freezing and nights below. Typical in Pa.

I am finding it takes a different routine of observation and pond tending in the winter than the summer. Mostly I keep my lines and filters clear to insure constant water flow, which I believe is my best friend against too much freezing. As long as the falls keep an opening in the surface ice my intakes should keep the bottom from freezing. Every day is different and I check everything out every day.

Learning for all of us trying this--sounds like you are adapting great as long as your pump doesn't freeze. And don't utter the phrase "power outage."

Good luck, let us know how it works with your type of set-up.

Mike

Anne

My streams are pretty wide and deep and I don't expect dams diverting water. However, those streams hold a lot of water turned to ice and the water level drops fast to the bottom of the skimmer opening. I have had to do two significant toppings-off in the past 24 hours, fun at 18 degrees.

Temps should go into the 40s the next few days and alleviate some. This may be my one winter running, just to say I did it.

What kind of weather are you getting in the Upper Hudson and Champlain Valleys? Beautiful and inspiring areas.

Mike

It will be back to around 18 degrees tonight and then night time temps will be above freezing again.

Here are my falls after 48 hours. As I write I am topping off pond for third time to keep the skimmer working. Rough estimate is that there are well over 1000 gallons of water in ice right now.

You have a larger pond with the same skimmer--I imagine you are not facing this problem. I've had to open the skimmer and remove some ice to get a clear picture of water level--my suction line ran dry for a couple hours until I caught on.

Lot of running around charging and draining water lines but it isn't bad to do, in my opinion. I'll take my pictures and welcome some warm relief tho.

Let us know how you are making out, post some pics if you can. My observation is that as long as the water is flowing through your system fairly vigorously, nothing should freeze. Shut down for a few minutes though--who knows.

Mike

Admittedly against the advice of our pond supplier, we've been keeping our 1500 gal pond with waterfall running every winter since construction in August of 2004 and, hoping I don't jinx my luck here, haven't had a problem yet. It's just over 4 feet deep at the deepest point.

The pump and filter tank are all exposed, so last year's extreme cold (low teens) prompted my son to add to the usual insulating wrapping on the tank: Exterior grade Christmas lights draped around and the whole thing covered with a tarp (which was blue, and partially hidden by trees and shrubs so looked quite eerie at night). From the beginning, we've been using a small floating electric heater in the water to keep the ice open.

During the coldest spells, we do get some ice build-up on the falls and nearby rocks, but during the day I simply chip that off carefully. My worry this year is the potential for ice build-up on the netting we had to add late last winter after the heron discovered our pond.

Lesson learned: Even if you don't shut down the system for winter, you've got to remove the UV bulb. We overlooked that little detail the first year and had to replace it.

I'd like to post a picture of our pond in an unusually heavy snowfall a few years ago, will have to figure out how to do that.

The fish may be hunkered down on the bottom (How do they do it? I was cleaning some stray leaves out of the skimmer box two weeks ago and the water was bone-chilling cold!) but we enjoy the pond year 'round. Local wildlife does, too. We've had unusually cold weather these past two nights: 16 and 13, with daytime highs below freezing, and I awoke both mornings to a yard full of an amazing assortment of birds and squirrels ... I guess we've got the only liquid water in the neighborhood. Some of the birds didn't even fly away when I went out to fill our two bird baths with fresh water ... shades of Alfred Hitchcock.

I'm glad to hear so many are successfully running - and presumably enjoying - their ponds through frigid winters.

Diane

My pond is still a dreary fall brown. Most everything has died back. Today the edges had some ice but it thawed by noon.

The skimmer is doing O.K. I have been checking it to make sure it has not started to ice on the sides.

My pond includes a 50' stream, a shallow 2' pond and a deeper 4' deep pond. None of them have ever frozen to the point where flow stopped, even when the waterfall froze into a solid piece of ice with the water flowing through the middle of it!

Nice that some winter ponders are joining in, doing some photos. The art of tending the winter pond isn't anything I have read much about over the years, and it is reassuring to know that many problems are common.

I was sure nervous the first time everything disappeared under ice and out of sight. By now, I am enjoying it and feeling much more comfortable that it will be running and whole come spring.

Pictures are always great to see. Gardenstate of mind, do try to post yours. Get a free account at Photobucket and then seach the archives here for "posting pictures." There very easy directions...btw, I lived in Sussex County for a long time.

I posted pics of my landform in the Gallery, New Pond in Late Summer, if anyone hasn't seen but would like to without the ice.

Thanks for the compliments and the good wishes....so many nice people involved in this hobby/obsession. Anybody has some pictures or more thoughts on winter ponds, it would be great.

Mike

Though winter situations will vary from, year to year, pond to pond and region to region, the information gathered and posted here will be of benefit, I believe, to many people in the future.

If you and the others, that have decided to keep the water flowing through their pond systems over winter, keep this thread going, with reports about your individual experiences, Re, ice build-up, water flow, problems encountered [or not]. It could become a reference thread, worth book marking.

The questions about whether it is safe to run pond water over winter, come up year after year. And every year, as at the beginning of this thread, there is always the words of caution given out by myself and others.
This hesitation to say, "yes go ahead", is based on our own personal experience, or from having read about other forum members, suffering through pond emptying disasters, due to ice dams etc.

But those experiences may also sway people into giving a blanket "NO" answer to the question "Is it safe to run a pond system in winter?" But each pond has it's own story. Yours and the other winter "pond water runners" experiences, will provide additional information for people to use, when this question comes up again in the future.

Glad to read it is working out for you so far, without any major mishaps.
Keep the reports and photographs coming.
"Horton"

What I forgot was that the pond system is artificial; no matter how much I thought I knew about water and ice, freezing and ice all happened in fast forward. So it is important to know your pond, tend to all the splash and potential ice build-up areas in the fall because everything disappears overnight and it is hard to tell what is going on--the only measure I have is the volume of flow over the final falls, and then I am never sure if it is changing or not due to ice. You need a good feeling for how the streams flow and where, generally the behavior of the system, because it changes.

There is a relationship among the elements of the system, I think. Volume and depth of pond are very important as is the amount of water pumped. I had to fit my pond in a smallish area, but with a desire for rushing water am right now pumping a lot of with two pumps.

I get a huge ice build up right away, water level drops and endangers the skimmer, and topping off is routine. But the heavy flow seems to go right along under the ice, preventing an ice dam.

Does anyone have thoughts on what is the best kind of water flow? My heavy flow exposes a lot of water to the freezing air, giving me a build up but with tunnels under the ice. If I were to slow the flow, does it seem likely I would get less build-up, less need to top off and still be able to flow free under the ice? There is some scientist who can answer that I am sure. That is my next experiment--when the ice is gone I intend to adjust flow and see if there is a better balance to be had.

Beginning to think of this as the Art of Winter Pond Tending/Keeping/Running. I do hope the thread keeps on and others share their problems and solutions (or disasters?). You get locked into it - hard to change your mind and go out and shut down, winterize when the temp is 14F.

I try to be ready for the worst (inherent trait I suppose), have designed so my plumbing pretty much self drains when the pumps are removed), set out temporary spotlights so I can see what's happening at night, check everything several times a day (helps to have time on my hands), and have steeled myself to the possibilty of being out there at 1AM in the freezing rain disconnecting my pumps in a power outage. Did I mention too much time on my hands?

The tip earlier in this post about wrapping commercial christmas lights at the pump is very clever-I know a single 100 watt bulb hung in a boat's engine compartment can keep a water system from freezing, so these lights should work well. As long as the power is on!

Horton, it would be nice to hear from ponders in a range of climates, see how far into the real winter people keep running. Nice to have this going with a quiet minority speaking up. Lots of photos please.

Thanks everyone -- Mike

I logged in to the forum to see if I should feed them, but someone else was asking the same question so I got my answer right away!

This is my first year with the pond and I posted several times on this forum a couple months ago when I was panicking about what to do with the fish. I was all set to go the aquarium route but most of you advised me to get a deicer and leave the fish in the pond, which was also the recommendation of the fish guru at the pet supply place. So I've followed that instruction and I am pleased so far with how the pond is doing. It was so pleasant out today that I was able to sit on the garden bench and listen to the water bubble and watch the fish swim around!

Cindy

Ice texture & reflections

Cool bubbles and inclusions

Of course, it's supposed to be in the teens again next week. Alas.

This is the third winter I've done this, and have always had excellent results. No ice dams. Ice does form along the streams (it's beautiful to see the water flowing underneath the ice), also along the waterfalls, and along the top of the pond. But, when the sun comes out and warms up the temps, the ice melts. Ice gets about 2" deep, when we have a real cold snap. It is important to monitor water level in the pond, because if it's not snowing (or Nature doing something to add water to the pond), the constant freezing and thawing of pond water, causes it to evaporate, and the pond water to drop. So be sure to monitor, as you may need to add pond water throughout the winter. My own experience is that, on the average, I need to add pond water monthly.

The coldest temps this pond has experienced (and all the fish therein) was the cold spell last January, when we went for 3 weeks with temps between 6-19 degrees at the HIGH point. It's too early in this winter to report on what the low temps have been...but we've had several overnight temps over 10 degrees or less....and these have warmed up to 19 degrees.

Utah has been receiving the snow that dumped on California, and within the past 3 days, I've received about 12-inches of snow. The water is at the max level in the pond, and when I checked the skimmer yesterday (after snow shoveling my way to the pond), I noticed that the pond water was above the overflow mark. So elsewhere in my yard, beneath 2+ feet of snow there is water coming out of the overflow pipes.

I checked and the fish are hunkered down in their caves (although 2 more adventuresome fish swam out to check out what was going on, then hustled back into the caves). So, all is well in Utah's winter. And I remain an advocate for running your pump throughout the winter.

Hope this info helps. One of these days I intend to capture my winter pond with photos. Today is absolutely breathtakingly beautiful, with all the new snow, crystal blue sky, our mountains covered with snow, and thick snow blanketing trees, shrubs, and all the pond features. Truly a perfect day!

Pic 1

Pic 2

Brenda

Brenda, thanks for bringing up those images for kcrotts. A snowless frozen stream is unusual here--what mine looked like as the thaw started. BTW, remember the poster with the gorgeous moose pond somewhere in the Rockies? It would be nice to see that setup in the winter. Ideas?

Sandy, get to it, join the winter pond runners. Zone 5 doesn't mean much difference from Zone 6 in this regard, I don't think. Sounds like most posters are just doing it because they like it, not worried about the whys as you and I do lol. There are reports here from Chicago, Rochester, NY (they have winter), others talking about weeks of freezing.

Anyone with knowledge of pumps (Horton?) care to comment on the difference between submersible and external pumps in a winter situation?

Anyone have thoughts on whether the amount of water being run has any effect on ice buildup and pond draw down?

I just spent 45 minutes in my pond, in a tee-shirt, cleaning, adjusting, tweaking for the next freeze. Frozen solid a few days ago.

Please continue to post information and especially pictures--more winter running experiences await.

How about a contest to identify the winter ponder with water actually running in the harshest conditions--a Zone 4 or 3, high altitude--like the wedding guest who traveled the farthest. Who is the boldest of us all? Get the word out....prizes to be determined.

Thanks - Mike

Lisa

Pond in January 2006 (from second floor window):

For reference, pond about one year after construction, probably August of 2005:

We did, of course, run into some large roots from that white oak tree. I wouldn't dare admit this in the Trees or Landscape forums, but we just cut through them. [cringing now, awaiting the blows] It's been three years and [keeping fingers crossed] we see no signs of stress or decline in the tree, nor root disturbance of the pond liner. I did a little research on the mountain laurel and learned they really prefer living lean soil, virtually clinging to rocky hillsides, so I figured the loss of part of the root system might not be an insurmountable hardship for it.

Someday, through the use of rocks, berms and shrubs, I hope to have that pre-formed waterfall better integrated into its surroundings.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but I cannot express how delightful and relaxing this pond has been, regardless of time of day (or night - there are underwater and above-ground lights placed discreetly), season or weather. My only regret is that we didn't build it sooner.

Diane

Everyone is moving slowly at the bottom of the pond and the only remnants I've found are that of a frog - hope it's not my big boy! :(

here's the picture from yesterday. I'll grant it's not overly pretty but, except for a 29 cent pvc slip joint, it was all made with stuff I already had.

Vanessa

How did you get the center pole to stay standing up, and what is it made out of? How did you attach the boards to it?

I love your idea and want to adapt it when I need to cover my partially inground 300 gallon rubbermaid tank (usually only if there's over a week of prolonged extreme cold, otherwise the deicer heats it up enough to keep the lilies from freezing on the bottom).

I carefully measured and even dredged up some old trig formulas but forgot that I had read that stock tanks are not necessarily their labeled diameter. My boards seemed to be about a half inch too long which meant the center pole wasn't touching the bottom. Since the hardware cloth was flexible, my husband was on one side and me other the other and we just pushed it down. Being connected at the point matters but I'm not sure the pole does. At least not in this small diameter. If I hadn't have made the center pole, it wouldn't have mattered if it was a bit taller than I planned.

Vanessa

If I install a de-icer in front of the skimmer, will it help keep the area clear of ice? I gather they float and wonder if it would be drawn into the skimmer?

I know nothing about de-icers--types, appropriate sizes, etc. Any thoughts and advice is welcome. Thanks.

Mike

"Horton"

If I only need the heater every few days, energy cost isn't a real issue. I have the situation where I can tie it off away from pond elements, installing some type of windbreak like a board is possible I guess.

I have time to ponder, so to speak, do some research while I chop and top for a few days as necessary. Bought a real flexible rubber hose to make topping a bit better when it is 7F or whatever is in store.

BTW, for anyone following the thread, I have found that sites for trappers and for ice fishermen offer exceptional insulated and waterproof gloves, gauntlets and shoulder-length gloves that slide on nicely even over parka sleeves.

Mike

www.gemplers.com Elbow length warm neoprene gauntlet style that have a good gripping capability--I really like these

www.fntpost.com This is the Furharvester's Trading Post and some of their items are not recommended for the animal lovers or PETA members--no disrespect intended. A pair of shoulder high insulated water-proof gloves that are really rugged. The two gloves are linked by a piece of stout elastic that reminds me of the way people used to connect kids' mittens. But this is first rate as the gloves don't pull down from your shoulder/arm pit as you move and reach in the water. Gripping small objects is difficult but wearing them gives you a great sci-fi look.

There is one rule that comes into play tho - every object under the icy water that you want to reach is exactly 1/4" deeper than the height of the glove. Nah, I can reach that if I'm quick...

Hope this helps someone keep warm and dry.

Mike

I wouldn't know but suppose if one of those big shoulder gloves fills with water while a ponder is reaching into the depths it would be interesting.

My forecast changed to 24/7 freezing temperatures for the indefinite future - some real Pa winter and winter pond tending.

Mike

Any plan that involves regulating the flow of water as you go along has not taken into account that plastic ball valves, no matter how expensive, freeze in position at 5F

Any emergency exit plan for removing pumps that involves plastic quick-connect fittings is likely a pipedream at 5F. When you're in the fun, you're in; winterponding is like a blood oath

The skimmer is really a fragile link and is better taken out of the loop (when it is warmer)

A good memory of where there are stones and where there is exposed liner is suggested prior to aggressively plunging a steel ice chopper into the unknown

It is possible to fall on your back in a puddle of ice and water in the dark and still retain your dignity; but that's not possible in the daylight, even if your nearest neighbor is 10 miles away

At 4 AM at 4F, in a treacherous setting of water, ice, slippery and loose rocks and a pond waiting to swallow up anything that falls in it, a buddy system is highly recommended to do the necessary pond tending. Besides satety, it helps you find out if you have a buddy or not at that time of day

Mike

When you can laugh at yourself during all these trials and tribulations and learn from it all, you have it made.
Your experiences and cheerful attitude toward, what can be a downright, miserable task, will be an example to the others, who dare to take on Old Man Winter and keep their ponds flowing.
Great Stuff!!!
"Horton"

My pond overflow pipe is attached to this system. This morning I had to top the pond off as the skimmer gate was going dry. I forgot about checking on the progress regularly as the overflow takes care of any extra water I allow in the pond during filling.

Pondering my fate, the doorbell rang and there was one of my neighbors whose driveway was now iced in. I turned off the hose and got about my day. Later I looked out the window and there was a water company truck with a guy digging up my service valve, which is within a foot of my storm drain outfall. I went out and chatted, noticing to my dismay that half the street is a sheet of ice from my irresponsible topping off.

Now I feel I should call the municipality and tell them to come sand the street but torn because I have no desire to have anyone from officialdom visit my back yard.

As I prepare to turn in after clearing my streams a last time until the middle of the night I suppose, we (buddy system still working) noticed the ice is really thickening on the pond below one waterfall and I see a possibility of water flooding the ice and overflowing the banks eventually.

The solution is obvious - lower the level by pumping water from the pond --into the overflow and out into the street. Ooops. Maybe if I do it at 3AM, no one will notice except the cops driving by!

Isn't this the rule of unintended consequences at work?

I've made a lot of mistakes and keep on making more. My pond is an unwieldy feature and there are thousands of gallons every hour out of my control.

It is really cold--below zero. I don't mind the cold and have the gear to stay dry, but this looks like at least a week-long siege of cold before there is any relief.

Is anyone else out there having problems with the deep cold? Anyone giving up on running like this? Found clever solutions to situations that arise?

I am determined to get through the winter, but it may be the last. Right now the pond is worse than a dog--I can't go away and leave it but I can't throw it in the car and drive to Florida either.

I may yet find out how tough those quick connect fittings on my pumps are.

Horton - thanks for the kind words and appreciation of how I am trying to deal with this tough situation. Good to have a biographer of a hapless winter ponder - you will end up with the best seller while I am on a chain gang chopping ice in the city streets. This sure isn't what I thought it would be.

Mike

I loved your statement,
"Right now the pond is worse than a dog--I can't go away and leave it but I can't throw it in the car and drive to Florida either."

Keep going "Frobisher" only another 800 miles to the Pole! ;-)
"Horton"

lsst, I know what you mean. Being brash enough to leave the pond on in this freeze, I confess to having shut it down for a couple of long weekends away in the first summer it ran.

Being pretty tired, I forgot the hose again last night and got some unexpected build-up. But I can still get to the pond out the second story window.

My buddy system took this candid action photo as she left for her day job, leaving me of course to my particular day job and apparent life's labor.

That is not me; it is a representative of the water company investigating a complaint. I was still trying to get out the window in my snowsuit.

Mike

Piecoe, good to see your still up and about. Stay warm, it's always good to hear from you.

Steve, my old buddy, thanks for dropping in and saying Hi, after all those years.
We lost a number of the old posters through the years, but I guess I'm too stubborn to quit.
Some good people, with worthwhile information post here, some new posters and some of the oldies also.
DRH [David] quit posting, because of the back biting that went on. That was a big loss to the forum. Ronaye, too, has not been around for a couple of years, as far as I have seen.
But your combined effort about winterizing a pond is still up in the FAQ section. Still good information, I post links to it often, when winter questions come up.
Yeh, sometimes I think,Feb, 22nd comes around too quickly.
Hope you are well also.
Drop me an e-mail if you feel like it Steve.
"Horton"

Everything looked great out the window in this morning's early sunshine, even tho I know the blind spots, so after some stretching, extra coffee, muttering and checking the yellow pages for the local free mental health clinic, I went slip-sliding out to this landform that can only be called a pond in the summer--right now it is a nemesis.

The skimmer was no longer part of the system. I let the water get low enough long enough that water in the intake pipe apparently froze. Oh well, at least the pump has another 2-inch pond bottom intake so it isn't being starved on the suction side.

Then at the top of the system, filter pond, the surface feed--like water from a grotto--is no longer functioning. It appears ice build-up gradually plugged the pipe and there is no flow. Couldn't revive it. An underwater feed is still working, maintaining some flow over the spillway into one stream. Barely enough flow to prevent the spillway from icing over and stopping the water.

I decided to call it quits, cut my losses before they became too severe (read-two expensive pumps), take my chances on already-frozen pipes. Called my strong, savvy pond buddy who helped me build--I am leery of undertaking it alone for several reasons. He called and we can do it in the dark - symbol of my life!

Observations: keep the center of the stream open and let the sides freeze-narrower channel runs faster and stays clearer. The ice formation along the sides is an excellent protection against lateral seepage out of the stream.

Remove the ice when it is slushy--easy and prevents it turning really solid and an invitation to liner damage from tools.

Toss slush, ice into or onto pond, recycle and eliminate frequent topping off

I have streams flowing under ice, in open channels and on top of the ice layer, depending. All a victory because it is running.

My pond is great for us in the summer - we like the look, the sound--it meets our vision of a water feature/landform. For the winter it is out of balance for running. The pond is too small in relation to the high water turn-over rate and exposes me to serious freezing. About 75 feet of rocky streams measuring from 2 to almost 5-feet wide, with several falls and fast water is just too much for me to manage. Less water running is part of the answer, but I got caught with my valves open. The lovely stones in the stream channels are ice magnets and should have been removed.

The only option I can think of that I haven't explored is to just leave it alone and see what happens (best with slower flow?). I spent a lifetime trying to work with Nature, avoiding the folly of fighting - spitting into the wind. They say you can't be a prophet in your own backyard.

You fellow ponders who are running and going through this cold snap, are you having problems, how are you addressing them, please weigh in with some moral support and advice for the rest of us.

Somehow this has turned into a "Dear Diary" for me, although I hope my experience is of benefit to others. If I did have that chance to start again, I would design and build to handle winter and adapt to the rest. I designed to summer and find adaptation to winter tough. I didn't intend to run then.

I also swore no fish, no plants. My buddy system has the lillies on line and exclaimed yesterday that one can buy fish real cheap at WalMart. Oh oh, another design flaw about to be exposed.

I have a couple of hours to decide whether or not to pull the plug. Relax with a beverage - no ice thank you, make it warm, and decide.

One son and my grandson are coming to visit in a couple of weeks and they have never seen this thing in operation and that is why it is running, I think. Irrationality is the foundation for so many decisions.

Mike

Fortunately I had planned ahead and put a union on the top of the pump, so I was able to hack together a quick winter bypass. In the spring, I plan to dig a channel next to the pond and lay the line partially in the ground. I may also wrap it with some sort of heat tape.

You can see four pictures of the bypass starting at the linked URL.

Once the water stopped flowing, the water level dropped considerably due to ice accumulation. Once the bypass was running, the pump began sucking air due to the low water level. I had to chip a bunch of ice away to get it to fall into the pond and raise the level enough to keep the flow up.

- Chris

I figure if the pond has weathered 15F and 20F nights up until now with the line sitting up in free air, it should do a bit better if I put the line just into the ground. When it's 5F overnight like this, the temperature in the front line may be below 32F, but it won't be 5F. Moreover, the ground around the line will be warmed somewhat by the water, and will not conduct heat away as quickly as restless 5F air.

I completely agree that the only absolute foolproof solution is to bring the line below the frost line, but that's just not practical due to all the obstructions in the way. I'll be lucky if I can get it deep enough to get it out of sight! I will be happy if I can just get it covered with some dirt enough to keep it at surface temperature instead of at air temperature. That should buy me something - or at least that is the theory!

More pictures of my pond are available at the link below! Thanks for your thoughts, they are appreciated and agreed upon.

- Chris

I can not offer advice on closing it as apparently you get a lot more ice than us and I do not want to say - keep it running and then you have a pump run dry on you!

I have enjoyed this thread but only you know what is best with your situation.

Ice was closing in on me increment by increment. Streams were getting narrower and very much faster and the splashing where the water entered the pond was causing big, fantastic, abstract ice sculptures to form, soon to send water in the wrong directions, I feared.

My skimmer suction line began working again, but the feed into my upper pond was gone for the duration. Water in the system was starting to get re-directed--when the outlet froze it was like closing the ball valve in that line and all the water from one pump was now charging down one stream, helping create the ice sculptures. I thought I heard the click of the first domino falling.

Then chrispitude's experience comes into play. There are two 3" pipes carrying water from one pump (original construction) and one 3" pipe from the add-on pump. The pipe size was based on solid advice regarding friction head reduction, altho I know some people disagree.

Since I have external pumps that sit slightly above the pond surface elevation, there is significant length of exposed pipe, check valves, gate valves, and ball valves out in the chilly atmosphere. I kept a work light on, hanging from the ceiling of my pump house, and I suspect that was a big help. Still, when I pulled my pumps, I found that my leaf baskets were frozen to the housing even though water was flowing through them like crazy.

When I did my disconnecting, it seemed the water really backflowed nicely from the uphill pipes and I am hopeful..didn't even get very wet! One of the best tools I bought for my plumbing was a strap wrench.

The dual pipes are buried in a common trench about 6-8" deep and are heavily wrapped in overlay material. The add-on pipe runs probably 30 feet on the surface in a shrub line, covered by ivy. After various splits, all but one discharge point come back almost to the surface to pump water into streams, etc.

I was never really thinking winter when I did all of this; unfortunately I continued that never really thinking mode into this winter.

My "rushing winter mountain brook" was really pretty, even my dubious neighbors agreed to that. I had these nagging feelings about the fragility of my system but pressed on because I liked it, because it was something to do with time on my hands, because it was a challenge, because this exchange with fellow ponders was gratifying and fun.

Everything was fine when the temperatures were in the 20s-with all the agitation from falls and underwater suction, there wasn't even any skim ice on my pond for the most part. False security.

We also had very little snow, not enough to create an insulating blanket to provide a little relief. So when the temperature suddenly plummeted to single digits, day after day, the light slowly went on in my head. Every day I lost the battle to encroaching ice, stubbornly hanging on for pride now, not the aesthetics. I have never been a good loser, but Mother Nature was pummeling me pretty good.

lsst, your comments about zone 6, 7 etc is interesting. I am surrounded by Zone 5 and have long wondered about the designation. There appears to be up to a 25 degree lowest temperature differential between your zone and mine--that says a lot. I've only lived here three years and cannot comment on typical weather patterns, to be able to say if this is just one of those anomalies, a cold spell that occurs from time to time or not. Where I grew up, we always had a week or more of way sub-zero temperatures and then back to the norm of just cold. In my opinion, scales that are based on nice round number increments are subjective and best used as a guide to the reality out there.

If my temperatures had stayed in the 20s, even the upper teens, I think I would have been OK. Just hit a point where all the dynamics of air and water temperatures were unfavorable. In this ridgy, hilly part of the world, micro-climates are common, and low areas with elevations near-by (read, my property) are subject to cold air flowing down hill and really putting the freeze on.

This has been fun and educational for me. It has been a parodoy of my experience in some respect, I may have overstated my feelings and opinions, but it is better than chopping ice. For those of you just cruising along in the winter, I am jealous. Will I redesign, try to learn from this and give it another go next year? Well, my buddy system is still my buddy, sighing in relief and giving me a long look as though she could read and negate my thoughts.

Dear Diary: I slipped and skidded on the ice and didn't make it home by midnight.

Write on if any of you have interest. Think summer.

Mike

I give you a "10" for staying the course this long!

Sandy, I loved number ten in your linked list.
"Horton"

I guess the end became ever more obvious in the physical complications and my less optimisitic mood. What a rush though. I just don't have a winter capable pond--or the pond lacks a capable keeper.

Murphy's Law #10 is apt indeed. As Sandy said, I came out in one piece [again]. If I were a cat I'd need to think hard about how many more misadventures left to chase.

What great and interesting people in the ponding world - brightened things up for me, sustained me along this course. I welcome anyone contacting me by email to chat about ponds and life.

Still hoping for others to chip in with tales of success or woe; really interested in reading about what people think they did right or why their circumstances supported winter running. Not that I am making any plans for next year.

Mike

In my case, my frozen output was caused by the design. A 2" pipe with a 3" collar sends water through a rock "cave" to make a vigorous small, low falls into my upper pond. The end of the pipe is out of view but exposed to the air. As ice built up on the fall stone, there was spray and a gradual icing over of the whole "cave" area, plugging the flow. When I discovered it, it was too late and the ice was rock hard.

The pump feeding that line is not connected to the skimmer and I doubt there was any interruption, just freezing process. The frozen area is the end of the line, highest, farthest point from the pumps and pond and wide open.

The whole line from the pump is a "Y" with a ball valve. One arm to the frozen output, one arm to a stream. When the one froze, all the water then went to the stream and it had volume and velocity to start making icebergs at the pond. As always, cause and effect, the old pond interlinkages a challenge.

Throughout, my pumps ran strong and clean, even when the skimmer froze for a time since that pump had another intake. Unfortunately, I couldn't control them because valves were frozen wide-open. I was ready to heat valves with halogen shop lights when I decided to pull the plug--I believed it was only delaying the inevitable.

From what I described on earlier posts, there are several flaws in my particular set-up against winter ponding. I believe the biggest was the volume of water through my streams and my inability to react to changing circumstances. And the fact the whole thing is just beyond me physically anymore to chop away.

So I'm sort of moping around, too much time on my hands, trouble brewing in my mind, when my buddy of my buddy system says to me last night..."when it thaws, why don't you try----?" From the mouth of babes, so to speak.

So maybe within a week I'll be back in the game in a limited way.

Right now, I am worried about the melt (if it isn't one thing it is another)and the overflow into the street again. I am looking for an alternate way to pump down directly into a catch basin if I can get together enough hose and if my utility pump has the oomph.

Mike, enjoy, don't forget your sunscreen pond pal.

Mike

the ice jamming the stream but water is flowing under for the most part. this was my one overflow of the stream side

ice from the overflow visible on the path, center left

ice building up but the sun slowed the process despite 10 degree temp

water from the "grotto" that feeds upper filter pond, pond and spillway to one stream. the exposed end of the pipe in the rock feature is what froze and started my real problems. an underwater feed to the pond kept water going over the spillway, which never froze, and into the stream

My pumps performed admirably despite being above ground. There must be some formula for doing this - enough flow to keep plumbing clear but not too much to expose lots of water to freezing. Once it starts to freeze adjusting flow is impossible unless you can keep ball valves from freeing or thaw them with heat and light.

We have a brief thaw coming and I will have to draw down the pond to avoid freezing in the street from melt overflow. My intent is to re-install my smaller pump (2300 gph on low flow) and just feed one stream and see what happens. This pump draws from the bottom at 2', if it isn't frozen. Skimmer and everything else are out of service for a while.

Mike

With some temps in the mid-40s coming, I hope to pump down my pond enough through a direct connection to the city storm system that I don't flood the street through my stormwater system when the ice turns to water. However, I just took a whack at the ice and it is unknowingly thick. Hopefully I will be able to get the utility pump in at the right time before overflow starts. I am really hoping to have something running by next weekend so my son and grandson will see I haven't been sending them doctored photos of merrily splashing streams.

Thanks for the back comments--meaningful coming from you. It could be a bad fall in all the stones I have and there is ice on the ground under the snow. I do have a pair of strap-on ice grabbers and they are effective.

I'd like to think that my first effort at running my winter pond was research from which I might learn (maybe should learn to stay inside), but all my life I have been undaunted by data. lol

Thanks for the concerned thoughts.

Mike

rhody, pictures of your pond are always enjoyable. I bet a lot of us out here would love to have a spring-fed pond. Do you ever overflow, do you have any way to divert water around the pond or does it just keep flowing--I assume that altho you are in zone 6 in Pa you don't freeze with the spring? I know you have addressed this in the past.

Horton, Throughout this post your good humor, common sense, advice, on the mark cautions, knowledge have been valuable to me and I want to say thank you. I'm not done so I hope you have the patience to nudge me once in a while. Surely your good words have given some credibility to the effort.

I read your message on another post about how replies here have shown what variations there can be within a zone in different parts of the world. It is a truism often stated that while most ponds share certain characteristics that every pond is unique and the pond keeper need keep in mind that "rules" and advice cannot be universally applied in any literal way.

I have tried to put in positive information and difficult experiences with my grand experiment. I think it would be useful to summarize things, offer a general guide and specific examples for the winter ponder. On the other hand, so many people seem to just keep going with no problems that maybe it is just me talking to myself?

If I had the energy I might attempt this (you are a good synthesizer of the more general lessons though). On the other hand, perhaps this has pretty much run its course, although posts continue. Do you think this might be useful or just seen as the rambles of a sort-of-retired half-baked ponder pandering to his own interests? Rather than being message 93 here, buried, maybe a separate post that might be saved by others. Would make my travails seem a little more worthy. If I had the energy. Thoughts?

Sandy - I am trying to make another go at it, but I fear the ice will not melt enough. There is some rain forecast and I am worried about overflow into the street again, so I have to do something. But then it occurred to me that my intake pipe for the pump may well be frozen and there isn't much I can do with a check valve in the way of probing, adding hot water, etc. Just once I would like to make an "I did it" post. Thanks for your good words as well.

Mike

It is a short horizontal distance (about 5 feet) from the top of the waterfall to the pond, with a 4' vertical drop, so there isn't a lot of time for the water to lose its heat to the cold air.

We do have to top of the pond occasionally with water from the house.

The water seems to cut under the ice, so it doesn't get blocked up and leak out.

JeffM

Chris

My experiment resulted in ice dams, rapid thick ice build-up, and a constant need to add water to make up for the ice.

That was OK, but one afternoon as I looked across the pond when it was 18F I realized that a freeze up of my external pumps, pipes, skimmer was very possible if water flow slowed down or stopped. That's when I disconnected and drained.

My guess is that almost everyone running a winter pond in the colder areas, has a submersible pump and by-passes any filters, etc that can freeze. Much safer.

Next winter I intend to try a submersible and a single pipe upstream a ways and discharge the water into the stream. I won't risk my expensive gear again.
Mike

Running just wasn't for me. I seemed not to have any control over what was happening--a new glacier was advancing and I was a by-stander. Too much of a commitment. And I could sleep all night.

Maybe next winter a submersible, just because. I'm not surprised at your success, but are you running any surface water, a stream or falls to koi pond? Do you think there is any circumstance (as long as the pump is running) that one could freeze internally?

This is a nice retrospective, and throughout this thread is tons of information on winter running for those interested.

This year's winter experiment, a bubbler that has kept a big hole open through all of the freeze. Gotta get some dumb luck once in a while.
Mike

With the Artesian pump and Pinnacle pump I would guess that you could get some freezing in the pump if the water wasn't being pumped anywhere. With water flowing through the pump you might get some freezing around the basket and the bottom of the volute but the water would continue to flow. I would doubt that the ice would ever build up enough pressure to hurt the pump or crack the housing. You might not be able to remove the basket to clean it but as long as it did not clog solid it would be okay. If the water was not flowing than the pump generates heat and weather or not there is enough heat being created to melt any ice that is inside the volute I do not know. There could never be enough ice to stop the impeller from turning unless you lost power. If I had to guess I would say that as long as you never lost power or turned the pump off it would be just fine in the spring as long as the water kept flowing but if you lost flow than I would guess that with the pipes coming and going from the pump freezing there would be no place to get rid of the pressure that is building caused by the ice and something would break. But trying to predict what would break is difficult as every situation is different. But here goes first the pipes coming and going from the pump would break. Neither of these two events would probably not release the pressure in the pump. The bottom of the volute would probably crack next and continue to crack up the side of the volute until water in the pump could get out and release the pressure. Then the pump would be running without water and the seals would burn out. The volute and the seals would have to be changed in the spring but the pump would not suffer any other damage probably. This is just a guess but it is based on what I have seen with pumps left with water in them during the winter not running. In these cases replacing the volute and in one case the lid locking ring and the pump are as good as new.
In any case this is not a pretty sight. I have one client that just turned the pump off during the middle of winter without emptying it and in the spring decided he would rather have a new pump than fix the old pump. So I replaced the pump but I did repair the pump and put it on my pond at my shop. It has been running for 4 pond seasons with no problems.
Mike

By the time I realized that less water would be far better (contrary to my normal belief) my two very expensive (but very sweet) 3" ball valves that could slow the water were frozen open, as were all the others in the system. As you said, pipes in and out of the pumps were vulnerable.

I did fear the glaciers eventually would simple freeze and back up the streams and the pipes and the pumps. I'm not sure it could have all frozen, but so much ice was forming I was topping off the pond daily in single digit temps for fear the skimmer suction pipe could be affected.

And I was helpless against a rare but destructive power outage. That's the vision that made me see your chain of events putting me down.

So maybe next winter if I still have too much time on my hands I will set up a submersible, hook it to about 25' of two-inch flex pvc, let it go at a low volume of water. Leave the pipe right on the surface and watch. Or maybe this is just more folly, more greenbacks sacrificed in the interest of boredom. Think this will work? You do anything similar?

Mike

I can calculate the head, probably create a visually interesting connection to the existing stream, and try to figure out how much water would be right for a balance between looking good but not creating a glacier. That might be the trick.

Then a good quality pump or rebuilt. I figure I could lose the pipe to freezing, couple of valves, and be OK about it; the pump I assume is good in the water if the ice doesn't get to it, if I can't pull it.

I want to start planning now, get materials over a period of time, trial in the spring, adjust the flow to what seems reasonable, no doubt create another problem--which is OK since my big pumps and fittings will be removed and not at risk.

How to calculate or guesstimate desired flow down the stream is the problem. Big enough pump and ball valve.

Mike

The problem is the stream I would run is too big for this activity, I think. The water would flow into a stream opening up at that point to around 3' wide, increasing to 4' then 4.5' at waterfall stone. On the way down the water goes over three falls a few inches high, goes into a pool behind the fallstone and then over the stone into the pond. Turbulent and splashy.

My streams flow robustly but I couldn't begin to measure water depth. Assuming my pumps deliver full capacity (Pinnacle on low), in theory I have 9500 gph. With various impediments to full flow, assume I have 8000 gph working away. A big assumption that half goes to each stream, so my stream here gets 4000+ gph. I can divert the flow and create a late summer, droughty look but I have no idea what the flow is. My goal would be a little more flow but no where near what froze over last year. Hardly quantified. Truthfully, these streams require a fair amount of water to have any flow. Every once in a while I think of narrowing them but the labor involved would be a lot.

Is there any way to determine flow as it exits the pressure pipes?

I have adequate depth to contain the water There is a bend in the stream just above the fallstone at the pool. The water broke through there last year.

So I thought ball valve to set what might be a workable flow. If I buy a pump that doesn't deliver enough water to flow in this big stream it is a waste. If I end up with one with too much flow I can slow it down--all before winter and freezing.

A thought, a not-thought-through idea. All I will get for my trouble will be water flowing under ice and thus invisible and the same pretty much at the lip?

Ponders from wintery climes post pics of their streams flowing away under snow. Small streams, easy flatter flow?

Seems I have a fair weather pond set-up not suited for the winter. No more falls in winter altho I intend to hibernate on it. Could I build a streambed within a streambed?
Mike

My other stream is more user friendly--a flattish area then flow down a steep, short slope, two falls and a fallstone 3+ feet wide. But, I had a blowout last winter at the curve leading to the fallstone--not as sharp or as long a curve as the other, but it gave way. I could bolster the rocks on the curve or put in a temporary solid barrier along the stones. Right.

Getting water to that stream would probably involve an extension cord (altho I see 32' cords for some pumps) or another 15' of pipe with a little more vertical head.

Another mid-winter's night dream but for the cost maybe I will add a good submersible for the summer to see what it does with the other pumps off. I've been wanting to add some kind of tributary.

My feeling about your opinion is that I am only inviting trouble with an idea that doesn't fit what I have.

Mike

My 5 yr old grandson loves to feed his 6 goldfish which are now in a 55 gal aquarium (with air) in the basement. The middle of April they will be outside again.

Bernd

Mike

Mike - I'll check out the flow meter, see how it attaches, works. I would like to know, but I am happy saying I like what I have.

Blow out--sloppy language on my part. The same thing happened on both streams at the curve near the bottom. The ice build-up diverted water through the stonework on the outside of the curve on each stream, with the volume and velocity of the water a couple of stones actually were moved and that is where the water exited the system.

No water went over the top of the streamside, but it did get high enough to be above the liner part of the stream, maybe 6-8+ inches, and into the higher stones. Same difference--over the critical depth.

It was bitter, around 0, and 3am, perfect for glacier watching! I pulled back a stone or two at the breaches and some water ran out, but then, it was so cold that ice immediately sealed the opening and the water stayed in the streams, an ice dam now keeping it in.

Why I say too much water, too fast and winter ponding is a high risk for trouble.

The greater leak was on the stream with smaller stones. The water pooled on an adjacent stone patio with lots of chunks of ice from the break-through. As I moved toward the stonework, I stepped in the puddle, which was freezing very fast, my feet went out from under me and I landed on my back in the ice water! I immediately looked around to make sure a neighbor hadn't seen me (right, at 3am on a frigid night he's taking the air). My wife, who had the spirit to come out with me--well, I saw her just shaking her head as she helped me out of the water.

I thought it a close call, I realized my mammoth and I could have ended up captured in a glacier, hoping global warming is real.

The more I think and write about my experience, the more I realize I should leave well enough alone, forget the winter ponding. But I may yet get a submersible to enhance the drainage features and who knows where that leads?

Mike

I posted earlier about my pond doing great. A few days later I had turned my 2,500 gal. pump off because the falls were starting to freeze solid.

I still had a 450 gal. pump in the pond, a heater and a large air stone going. Then my electric went off. I heated two large pans of water twice to keep a hole in the ice.

I finally had to rig a cardboard box upside down with a 4" hole to keep out some of the cold and wind.

I then went out about once a day an stirred the water. That worked pretty well. The electric was off 5 days.

I haven't been able to thaw out the line from the pump to the falls yet.

The pump still works fine. I have heat and air now and am waiting for Spring.

Today for the first time I saw one of my koi and 2 gold fish. Only ten more to go. You just don't know the thrill of seeing those babies alive. (or maybe you do lol)

Last year was my first year for the pond. I had no problem the fist winter. "Thought this is a breeze".

I have learned alot. I won't be in any hurry to see winter next year but....
I will do it again. Makes my life interesting.

Garden Web

• Posted by mgeca 5PA (My Page) on
  Sun, Feb 8, 09 at 9:36

• Posted by violet4491 6 (My Page) on
  Sun, Feb 8, 09 at 17:52

Mike,Thanks for you kind words. Here is a picture of the frozen pond. I did stay at home while the electric was off. We had a gas kitchen stove and a 10.000 btu wall heater. This isn't a very good picture.It seems as though I didn't take many pond picture's during this time. The large black spot is a garden mum. The water fall is located behind that. Maxine

---

• Posted by mgeca 5PA (My Page) on
  Mon, Feb 9, 09 at 17:51

• Posted by violet4491 6 (My Page) on
  Mon, Feb 9, 09 at 19:38

• Posted by brownthumbia 5aIA (My Page) on
  Tue, Apr 6, 10 at 11:10

• Posted by hardin 7 SE OK (My Page) on
  Tue, Apr 6, 10 at 22:53

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