Carla

By the way, I heard "The Dogs in Elk Carcass" thread is quite funny, and I found the site posting it:

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/dogsinelk.html

There was a thread gathering all of "favorite threads" in years ago, and it sure seem like those were good too.

Fish heads, Fish heads
Roly poly Fish heads
Fish heads, Fish heads
Eat them up, Yum!
mel
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: lilaclily z5IL (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 8:24
Brother_Cadfael, you didn't offend me, I was serious when I said your post really made me laugh! Especially when you wrote "I can't imagine what the crap you brewed up smells like! What sick son of a b*t*h gave you that recipe? He/she can't have any freakin' sense of smell, or any sense at all.". LOL, 'twas me, me I say!
Frankly, the stuff makes me gag. DH will tell you, the first time I brewed it, I almost hurled. I thought the same thing.... something THIS vile surely can't be good for my plants!
While the recipe called for CANNED fish first, Pappu skipped a step! This is what is says:
Add 1-2 cans of mackerel, sardines, or other canned fish. Supplied extra NPK, fish oil for beneficial fungi, calcium from fish bones. Most commercial fish emulsions contain no fish oils and little to no aerobic bacteria. Fresh fish parts can be used, but because of offensive odors, it should composted separately with browns like sawdust first before adding to the tea brew. NOTE: For those organic gardeners who prefer vegetarian soil amendments, you can skip the fishy ingredients, it's not necessary. There is plenty of NPK in alfalfa meal and other grains that you can use.
To borrow the quote from GW member and composting expert David Hall:
"Chemical fertilizers rely on an assumption that plants only need three elements to survive and thrive. Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are those three. This is the equivalent of saying that we need protein, fat, and sugar to live. While this may be mostly true, pure protein, pure fat, and pure sugar do nothing to supply the vitamins, minerals, and diverse supply of bacteria and fungi in our diets.
Here is a list of a dozen things that you can do with organically fed soil that cannot be achieved with conventional chemical feeding.
1. Decompose plant residues and manure to humus.
2. Retain nutrients in the form of stable humus.
3. Combine nitrogen and carbon to prevent nutrient loss.
4. Suppress fungus and bacterial diseases.
5. Produce plant growth regulators.
6. Develop soil structure, tilth, and water penetration/retention.
7. Clean up chemical residues.
8. Shift soil pH to neutral and keep it there.
9. Search out and retrieve nutrients in distant parts of the soil.
10. Decompose thatch and keep it from returning.
11. Control nitrogen supply to the plants according to need.
12. Pull minerals out of inorganic soil components for plants.
Soil microbes need sugar and protein to thrive. When you apply synthetic ferts, none of the things on this list gets done. The microbes normally get sugar from plant roots. Protein in nature comes from dead insects, plants, and animals. The organic gardener applies protein artificially in the form or organic fertilizers. It is usually in the form of a ground up meal made from plants and animals to try to replicate the natural process."
And now, for those of you who haven't READ the recipe, it does list the reasons why they call for certain things in the recipe:
Let's assume a 5 gallon tea recipe for our example:
1. Add 1/2 bucket of finished hot compost. This supplies most of the beneficial aerobic microbes and soluble nutrients. Some people use slightly immature aerobic compost because it has more fresh nitrogen in it, but less microbes than finished hot compost.
2. Use 2-3 tblsp molasses, brown sugar, or corn syrup. This feeds and breeds the aerobic bacteria. Sugar products are mostly carbon which is what the microherd eat quickly. Add about 1-2 more tblsp of molasses for every 3 days of aerobic brewing to make sure the sugar is digested before touching the soil at application time, and to guarantee that the aerobic bacteria population stays strong throughout the brewing process. Molasses also contains sulfur which is a mild natural fungicide. Molasses is also a great natural deodorizer for fishy teas. For a more fungal tea don't add too much simple sugar or molasses to your aerobic teas. Use more complex sugars, starches and carbohydrates like in seaweed, rotten fruit, soy sauce, or other fungal foods.
3. Add 1-2 cans of mackerel, sardines, or other canned fish. I covered this above.
(NOTE: If you use canned fish products, you may want to let it decompose mixed with some finished compost, good garden soil, etc. in a separate closeable container for a few days before using. Since most canned meat products contain preservatives, this will guarantee that the good microbes in the tea will not be killed off or harmed in brew making.)
4. Add 1 pack fresh seaweed. Supplies all extra trace elements. Seaweed can contain about 60 trace elements and lots of plant growth hormones. Seaweed is a beneficial fungal food source for soil microbes. Liquifying the seaweed makes it dissolve even faster.
5. Add 1-2 cups of alfalfa meal, corn meal, cattle feed, horse feed, catfish or pond fish feed. Supplies extra proteins and bacteria. Corn meal is a natural fungicide and supplies food for beneficial fungi in the soil. Notice how alfalfa is NOT the main ingredient here?
6. Add rotten fruit for extra fungal foods. Add green weeds to supply extra bacterial foods to the tea.
7. Good ole garden soil is an excellent free biostimulant. Garden soil is full of beneficial aerobic bacteria, fungi, and other great microbes. Some people make a great microbial tea just out of soil. Forest soil is usually higher in beneficial fungi than rich garden soil.
8. Fill the rest of the container with rainwater, compost tea, or plain de-chlorinated water to almost the top of bucket. You can make good "rain water" from tap water by adding a little Tang (citrus acid) to the water mix before brewing. Urine water is also an excellent organic nitrogen source for teas (up to 45% N).
9. Some people like to add 1-2 tblsp of apple cider vinegar to add about 30 extra trace minerals and to add the little acidicity that is present in commercial fish emulsions. Many fish emulsions contain up to 5% sulfuric acid to help it preserve on the shelf and add needed sulfur to the soil. You can add extra magnesium and sulfur by adding 1-2 tblsp of Epsom salt to the tea.
10. Apply the air pump to the tea.
Technically even in un-aerated teas there is still some aerobic action taking place for several days. All fungi is aerobic. Some bacteria are totally aerobic, some bacteria are totally anaerobic, and some bacteria can act both aerobic or anerobic based on the soil or tea environment. Un-aerated teas can continue to keep alive some aerobic or aerobic/anaerobic microbes, for up to 10 days in a watery solution. After 10 days, the whole un-aerated tea will contain only anerobic microbes.
You can expect different microbial population levels in your tea based on weather, climate, temperature, seasons, etc. In the summertime you can expect your teas to brew faster and get to your optimal microbial levels faster than in cooler fall weather. Also tea odors, color, and foaminess on top of the tea, will vary based on temperatures too."
And where oh where does it say to add soy sauce???
Most importantly, Pappu, have you used any yet? It's not gonna smell any prettier, the longer you wait!
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: apple20 Z6 IN (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 8:26
As a newbie with rose obsession/addiction, I think ya'll have just scared me straight! Reading these posts is the equivalent of seeing a junkie shoot up in a back alley. I know where I'm headed if I continue down this path of "destruction." Lucky for me I have an acre and a half with close neighbors only on one side and they are pc gamers who rarely venture out into the light of day. If I do decide to brew this mess in the future it will be far, far away from the house.
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It DOES say to use soy sauce!
• Posted by: lilaclily z5IL (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 8:29
Oh, I see where it says soy sauce, well now, I stand corrected.
"For a more fungal tea don't add too much simple sugar or molasses to your aerobic teas. Use more complex sugars, starches and carbohydrates like in seaweed, rotten fruit, soy sauce, or other fungal foods.
Still sounds like a marinade for the catfish filet to me. See, even I can disagree with the recipe!
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: smom40 5MO (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 10:20
I think what put me back on my heels was three things. One, the amount of the material, threatening to take over the garage like The Blob. If the lid 'moved', that alone would cause me concern. Less intimidating if the can was only half full...
Two, anerobic activity...my micro in that area is a bit rusty but doesn't fermentation produce alcohol? Not knowing how concentrated it is, concerned me. I was guessing that it can't be that concentrated given the short time of decomposition and the shear volume of the liquid?
Third, the unknown bacteria activity in the liquid. Some bacteria is good, some bacteria is bad. Oftentimes it's dependent upon what is going into the bucket in the first place. But it seems like one large bacterial medium. And it's all guesswork as to what is inside because it isn't being cultured.
Regular composting, especially hot compost, makes sense because it's naturally heated by the bacterial activity and in theory, kills off nasty pathogens that might be inside.
But a bucket full of goo, sitting in a warm temperature garage, seems like the perfect medium for growing cooties. And if you don't know what they are...
I can see myself trying this, but not in an intimidating volume like the OP described to see what the results were. Putting organics into the soil just makes sense. It's like the difference between eating food and taking a multivitamin to me. Plants in their natural state drop organic material and feed the soil. Soil feeds the plants...
But I would also say that if anyone was doing this, disposable gloves would definitely be in order. I would be as concerned with this as I would be with dealing with raw manure..especially if the skin on the person's hands were not intact. A bug that might be good in the dirt might be bad in a person, kwim...As long as bugs stay where they're meant to stay, it's all good.
I know that I might sound like I'm quibbling here, and it's entirely possible that there is nothing to worry about, however, I have a great respect for microorganisms and also know that one Microbiology class has can ruin you for the rest of your life. In human beings, I've seen bugs beaten and I've seen bugs win. I look at them as something to be respected.
Btw, I really wanted to get seriously into composting this for the reasons that lilly described, but unfortunately I have a HOA that requires that I submit a plan for my composter and this might take until the end of time. :p
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: GaelicGardener z6 RI (madbh@aol.com) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 10:39
I live in an urban neighborhood where our houses are REALLY close together -- a car-wide driveway separates the house on either side. And my garden and garage/garden shed are only about 10 feet from my backdoor and bedroom window - so I'm not going to mess with fermenting fish heads! This is Providence -- mafia-central -- someone will call the cops thinking that someone is "sleeping with the fishes" in my backyard!
I bought some stuff on QVC called Spray and Grow, which is supposed to be Vitamins for plants. Did I waste my money and time? Can a spray do any of the things listed above for nutrients?
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: pappu z5 IL (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 11:24
It was not dealt with this weekend because I was really busy at work. I am taking off on Tuesday (did I mention that I have a huge amount to play with?) to deal with this frothy, gassy glob in my backyard. We havent dared to open the patio doors and I can see flies buzzing above it to share the spoils. It is kinda fascinating watching it, through the glass doors, as it froths and moves. Do you think the gasses are affecting my brain?
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: pappu z5 IL (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 12:09
Lilaclily, how do you make 'urine water'? Should I *ee in it? LOL! I am cracking up, this is too funny...no offence meant and apologies for my bad manners, but the thought is just side-burstingly funny. I might just end up doing it, just to see DWs reaction!
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: Ginni77 z 5 Illinois (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 12:29
smom, you said **doesn't fermentation produce alcohol**
Pappu, does this mean that you're making moonshine???
LMBO here!!!
Sorry, but I couldn't resist!
I can't wait to hear how you deal with this mess.
Ginni
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: Subrosa PNW8(7)BCCanada (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 12:34
I'm still curious about the soy sauce - perhaps it should read "soy meal".
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: roseleaf 7SE (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 12:50
I believe the concoction (minus the soy sauce) you’ve made is excellent for lots of plants, but obviously not many (include you) can handle it, even if you live in the middle of 100 acre farm.
For the tea, I do similar to what many have said earlier, to be specific: alfalfa + Epsom salt (if needed) + kelp meal. I also spread dry fishmeal around the base of the bushes, and take the roses to tea afterward. And we’re all very happy.
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: lilaclily z5IL (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 12:55
Pappu, not to be overly gross, but some years ago, DH would pick on a plant or rose that I happened to be in love with and threaten to let the dog pee on it. Well, once I read up that pee is actually good for plants (in small doses of course), I said, "go ahead honey, let the dog go", he couldn't use that threat any more. Now he just waggles the pruners threateningly.
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: Cactus_joe 7b (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 13:05
To stop the intense ferment, add a whole bunch of undiluted bleach to it. Or better still, if you can get whole of those pucks of chlorine, throw some of those in it. What you do after that ......................well, I don't know!
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RE: A big stinking mess! Help!
• Posted by: jenswrens z6 NJ & z4 MN (My Page) on Mon, Jun 6, 05 at 13:39
Just curious...Is the odor of all of these different teas offensive enough to keep the deer away from your plants for a few days after you spread it?