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| Many years ago, when I was still a teenager, I planted a bunch of HTs, floribundas, and early Austins at my parents' home. Unlike now, back then, I knew nothing, didn't winter protected (since I was at college), didn't use organic methods, my dad let his vines grow over the roses...you get the idea. Over the course of about 5-10 years, all of these roses declined and eventually, Dr. Huey took over every one except Zephirine Drouhin and Eglantyne--both quite vigorous varieties in their own right.
Now I grow only own-root. I have to think that partly in the back of my mind I still have nightmares of takeover by Dr. Hueys. I figure if I end up killing a rose, I don't end up with a monster in its place. My question is, for those who grow grafted, does Dr. Huey eventually try to (and successfully) take over your roses? Is it the case that since Dr. Huey is so strong and vigorous that no "top" can outcompete it, eventually it will take over somehow? Or were my failings years ago the real cause for their ultimate demise? Thanks,
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Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Mon, Jan 24, 11 at 6:54
| Good quality grafted roses, planted at the proper depth for the climate, very, very rarely revert to Dr. Huey. One or two out of every thousand is the kind of numbers I'm talking about. The usual cause of Dr. Huey problems is not burying the grafts. Here, they only need to be a couple of inches down and it makes an enormous difference. Basically the entire rose will die before you see any rootstock. |
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| Yes, rootstock takeover is usually caused by the scion being killed or severely weakened by winter damage or disease. However, if you have suckers and don't remove them, Huey could eventually overpower a non-vigorous scion variety. Follow mad_gallica's advice, and if you have a sucker, rip it off where it attached to the rootstock or carve all traces of it out. |
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| "Dr. Phooey" almost inevitably sends shoots up that will gradually take over the scion variety, regardless of the health of the scion material. In my climate, most roses get through the winter with little or no freeze damage most years, and so you cannot say that "Dr. Phooey" took over because the budded variety wasn't properly cared for, or was somehow damaged. I have a number of perfectly healthy Austins budded to this wretched rootstock, and 80% of them sent up "Dr. Phooey" shoots from below within 8 years of planting. This is a dreadful rootstock and only serves the production nursery, not the end user. It wasn't your fault. |
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| I guess I agree with Kate and Michael simply because in 8 or 9 years with 50 roses it hasn't happened here yet. I do bury them deep and have seen the development of "own root" on all of the plants I have dug up. I always wonder if the Dr. Huey rootstock is still viable on a rose which has developed a significant mass of its own roots. Especially when the good doctor is 6 or 7 inches down. Where he belongs! |
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Mon, Jan 24, 11 at 11:12
| I've dug up old, grafted roses with all of the following: a) no roots from the scion, functioning Dr. Huey b) two, apparently independent root systems, one the original Dr., the other the scion system developing at the union c) functioning scion roots, rotted Dr. Huey d) multi-crown scion roots, no physical connection between the multiple plants (totally rotted Dr. Huey) At Vanderbilt, we still have a lot of 20 year old Milestones, and almost all of those fall into one of the last two categories. I know I've dug up roses that had not gone own-root at all after several years, but don't remember the specific names. I do remember moving a Bonica that had been in the ground less than a year and being amazed at the amount of own-root development in that short a time. |
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| Dr Huey gets the bad rap, but any rootstock will attempt to take over the scion. The stocks are used because they are generally more vigorous and often longer lived than what's budded on them. In the West, it's common to find stands of Odorata, Manetti, Ragged Robin as well as Huey where budded roses were once planted. There are plenty of things YOU could be responsible for, but in the end, it's the innate vigor of the stock which will eventually win out. It's the price you pay for generally enhanced vigor of the desired cultivar; lower price (comparatively) for an "improved product" over smaller, less mature own root; faster availability of newer roses; often wider adaptability of cultivars of budded vs. own root plants. When you consider it can take as many buds per cutting as would create five or more budded plants and those multiple budded plants can be made available, ready to plant out in the garden in the same time the one cutting grown plant can be made available, it's no wonder budding has been the preferred method. From the garden side of the equation, we wish the motivation would always be to provide us with everything we want in forms which will perform perfectly for us in perpetuity. In reality, it will always boil down to what makes it possible for the producer (of any product) to provide the product at the lowest cost and highest profit and still have it desirable enough to make you want to spend your money on it. Historically, budding did what own root never could; give us bigger, "better", faster and cheaper. Each has its benefit as well as its failing. Once you understand them, you can determine what costs you're willing to put up with, what risks you are comfortable taking and why things are the way they are and have been. |
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| I've only had one rose with a Dr. Huey sucker--Burning Desire--perhaps the rose with the lowest ARS rating we have ever owned! I alertly ripped off the sucker and grew it as an own root plant. Amazingly, BD is still around, though it sulked a little when we moved it in a major overhaul of our very first rose bed--which was planted in 2001. We are now up to 200+ roses. |
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Mon, Jan 24, 11 at 12:52
| Perhaps it is the warm climate, but here in No Cal I have noticed many, many, "rootstock" roses in old gardens - Dr. Huey (which mildews horribly here), de la Grifferaie (a gorgeous rose), and Fortuniana (which I also like). In one old gold rush town we drove through, I would say 85% of the rose bushes we saw were Dr. Huey! Yuck! In my garden, when we moved in there were a couple dozen grafted roses. Even though the scions were getting care, and looked healthy, most of them sent up suckers I had to deal with every year. It was annoying, discouraging, and a big hassle. Then, in the early 1980s, I read about own root roses - light bulb! I wanted to put in a long bed of ground cover roses near the street. I needed 8 bushes - the plan was to make a low hedge. I found a mail order nursery (which shall remain nameless) which had the rose I wanted. I talked to them on the phone and inquired about getting them own root. They were very abrupt, and acted as if I was an idiot - "ALL of our roses are grafted....(they went on to explain why own root roses were useless)". All I could think of was me trying to climb among the dense thicket of 3 foot high roses, trying to cut out the inevitable suckers ... what a nightmare! I found a source of the same rose own root, and I have never planted any rose since that was not own root. Jackie |
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| Jacqueline, if 85% of the roses you encountered in the old towns you visited were budded on Huey, then you found modern, commercially available plants which were planted more recently than what you may have wished to find. It's a relatively modern development that own root roses have become popular. All were own root in the "early days" and there were many complaints of weak, immature, under developed plants offered at bargain prices which were virtually guaranteed to fail, which is what prompted the "big boys" to go the budded route. Read old rose books and ARS annuals and you find it an often repeated complaint. Huey wasn't the most common root stock of choice until about World War II. Gloire des Rosomanes held that honor until a mix up on the rose fields accidentally discovered Huey as "superior", at least for the larger portion of the country. For all his "faults", Huey is more cold hardy than GdR; accepts a wider range of scions; has a lower scion mortality rate due to water stress after budding; tolerates a wider range of soil and water types; and strikes more easily from cuttings than its predecessor. I'm not suggesting it's perfect, just offering an explanation for why he was selected and continues to be used. |
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| I have/had a few modern Austins that weren't available own root and they did sucker. It may very well be that they weren't planted deeply enough but my understanding was that in a warm climate the rose should be planted at approximately the same level that it was in its original pot. Should I have planted these more deeply? I suppose it's a moot point since everything I grow now is own-root (except perhaps Betty Prior from HD), but I'm still curious to know the answer. Ingrid |
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| Ingrid, that depends entirely upon whose "MINE is the ONLY TRUE religion" theology you're most comfortable believing. My experience here in the Santa Clarita and San Fernando Valleys is not burying the union results in more basal breaks, many fewer thick, old, woody, unproductive canes, the "one cane wonders" we've all seen and a generally longer, better life of the plant. I can guaranty you there will be posts disagreeing with me, and that's fine. For me, I don't bury the bud union as here there is no reason to HAVE to and too many to keep it uncovered. Try it with like plants of a few varieties and see which YOU like better. |
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| You buy own-root roses, or you plant the graft union at least 4" (probably preferably 8") deep. |
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- Posted by gardenerzone4 4 (My Page) on Tue, Jan 25, 11 at 1:27
| Thanks for the great perspectives on this issue. The last few postings got me thinking...should own-root roses be planted deeply too? |
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| I have many, many Austins planted in my garden from David Austin Roses that are grafted onto Dr. Huey. All of them are going on ten years old. I have never had a sucker of Dr. Huey come up, nor have I seen any sign of it come through any of my roses. My grafted roses do get planted with the bud union 6" below the surface. I don't winter protect. I have Austins grafted on Huey, Austins grafted on multiflora, and Austins own root. They all seem to perform equally well for me. The only time I've seen Dr. Huey come through is in my client's garden. She wanted HTs from Jackson & Perkins. I planted them deep and winter protected, but Mr. Lincoln is currently losing a battle with the Dr. The HTs take such a bigger hit in winter than the Austins, leaving them much less vigorous in the spring. |
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- Posted by karenforroses z5 NorthernMI (My Page) on Tue, Jan 25, 11 at 8:13
| Like Veilchen, I grow many roses (180), with about 45 of them Austins that are grafted on Dr.Huey. In all the years I've gardened here in zone 5, I've only had one Dr. Huey take over, and that was with a too-tender Golden Showers I planted early on before I learned about the importance of burying the graft. Most of my roses have the graft buried about 4" below ground. My ownroot and grafted roses seem to do equally well with this kind of planting, although the ownroot usually take a couple of years longer to catch up. |
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| I think there is some exaggeration here of how deep you need to plant. Roses can go own root if the graft is buried only slightly or even flush with the surface. For zone 6-7, I would recommend putting the top of the graft 1" below grade. ~2-3" is often recommended for zone 5. Natural roses form a crown just a few inches under the grade from which roots and canes diverge. Own-root roses are going to do that no matter how shallow or deep they are planted. The original crown of grafted roses is the rootstock crown where the roots diverge from the neck above, which was originally a cane of the rootstock variety. In the field, the top of this crown was ~2" under grade. If you bury it way deeper, the original roots will atrophy and the plant will grow slowly until/unless it develops a strong own-root system. Not all roses grow vigorously on their own roots. I've noticed roses with the graft buried 3" developing their new root system from the rootstock neck below the graft; that is, the rose chose to stay grafted. Also planting unnecessarily deep calls for unnecessary digging. |
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| The HTs take such a bigger hit in winter than the Austins, leaving them much less vigorous in the spring. I can say the same about my experience in z4/5 garden. Anything that is not that hardy for the zone, took a hit and rootstock activated (any rootstock for that matter, as Dr. is not that common here). Suckering was a fairly common problem with too tender HTs, but I can't recall seeing it with the roses that actually are cane hardy for that zone (including some moderns). I do not think that the ones dying or succumbing to suckers would have made it if they were own root, as they probably would have lacked vigor, on top of their other problems. If it is too cold, it is too cold. Here in NL almost all roses come grafted and get planted in various depths, but I haven't seen suckering, neither in my garden, neither in somebodies else, neither in mass plantings in a public green. The only case when suckering seems to happen, is when the grafted plants die or are close to it (mostly with low quality plants, or plants that do not do well with 0 care) |
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| After reading Michael's last post I think I should add that most of my roses were planted at grade and then gradually buried with soil, shredded leaves and hardwood mulch added each season. I haven't had a rose decline yet, but they are young. |
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- Posted by karl_bapst_rosenut 5a NW Indiana (rosenut@rosenut.com) on Tue, Jan 25, 11 at 16:35
| The only way a grafted plant can go own root is if the canes above the graft are buried below the soil surface. If the graft is at ground level, there can be no way for the grafted plant to produce roots. I agree burying the graft can cause a bush to pout and grow slowly until/unless it develops a strong own-root system. This is something I accept and expect. In my garden, all my hybrid teas were originally grafted. Most took a minimum of two years to get strong own roots and begin to grow well. I have some deep pots in which I plant my grafted roses to grow in my greenhouse the first year where it hot and humid and watered daily. This promotes good growth and own root forming conditions. After that first season, I transplant into the garden. They usually grow well after that. If transplanted in spring, I remove the root stock before planting outside. This forces the own roots to develop better. It also slows the groth that first year in the ground but they perform better after that. We're too impatient and expect things to happen right away. Patience comes with age. As much as one would like, a great garden doesn't happen in one or two seasons. |
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- Posted by cntryrosegrrl 6b (My Page) on Tue, May 10, 11 at 20:44
| After finding this post I know now I have a big sucker of Dr. Huey attached to one of my modern HTs. If i chop off the Dr. Huey, can you really save the HT or is just more sensible to remove this entire plant? |
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| Don't cut it. Dig down and find the base of the Dr. Huey cane, then remove it at the base, rip it off if you can, scraping off any parts that remain. You might be able to save your plant. Cutting it just trims the Dr. Huey, like pruning it. |
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| I have many roses on Dr. Huey. When I first started with roses, I followed the advice for my zone and did not bury the graft. I have some roses, both HTs and Austins that sucker constantly. The worst is Mary Rose and once it had canes that I thought were MR canes and finally after they never bloomed I got down on my hands and knees and saw they were suckers. It's gotten to the point that with a few of my roses, I can see the sucker, it just stands out from the rest of the plant and 999 times out of 1000 I am right. But other grafted roses, planted the same way, never sucker. For instance, I also have Redout, which is a sport of Mary Rose, I bought them together from the same vendor and they are planted the same way near each other and Redout never suckers, not once. So I don't think it matters how you plant it. I also agree with the poster that said that having the graft exposed results in more basals. I think that it allows the graft to be exposed to sun/heat and that spurs basal growth. Just my opinion. |
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| In our climate, it helps to remove the old canes at the end of winter to promote basal breaks. Just as the roses break dormacy, you can dig out the bud unions to cut the old non-productive canes at the graft, then rebury the graft. I don't want to do this too early to avoid canker, but not too late to avoid damaging new basal breaks. |
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| I had two Dr. Huey outbreaks in my 50 roses, planted last year. I didn't think I needed to bury the graft in my warm climate. One rose, cl. aloha was so taken over that it was literally impossible to "rip" off the dr. huey structure - it was 70%+ of the rose. And I didn't want to kill cl. aloha. So - I did just go ahead and cut out every visible part of Dr. Huey, and am committed to consistently removing any new Dr. Huey growth. Hoping that my cl. aloha will continue to grow and thrive - guess we'll see. |
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Thu, May 12, 11 at 12:22
| Here in our warm climate, there are two ways you can prevent takeover by Dr. Huey: 1) Constant examination of each plant, and digging far down to where the inevitable sucker is coming out of the main trunk, and removal at that spot, taking all of the new cane off the trunk, and repeat, and repeat and repeat..... 2) NEVER plant a rose that is grafted on Dr. Huey in the first place! I have noticed that in many old towns in CA, almost ALL of the roses you see are Dr. Huey! It is a real shame - it lives forever, with its ugly flowers and mildew infested leaves. In my opinion it is a pest, and I would no more plant a rose grafted on it than I would plant scotch broom in my garden. I only plant own root roses after fighting with Dr. Huey for years (we are still trying to get rid of it in some places where the original rose and all of its roots were dug up years ago). I realize that in some places like Florida, roses do better on rootstock like Fortuniana. At least if the Fortuniana rootstock takes over, you have a lovely gorgeous healthy large rose in your garden. Jackie |
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- Posted by BassandBonsai 5b (My Page) on Sat, Feb 11, 12 at 0:06
| Being a silly teenager myself, I can't give any personal information- I have had my roses for a very short time, and aren't even sure what cultivar they are! However, I've checked out a number of threads similar to this on different websites, and I've noticed some things: 1. Dr. Huey tends to be a very vigorous, easy to care for rose. 2. Because of this, it is grafted onto other roses to help them grow more mature faster. 3. People who live in colder climates tend to be indifferent to the issue. 4. People who live in warmer climates tend to despise Dr. Huey. 5. In colder climates, most of the time the grafted strain can easily overtake Dr. Huey, and the rest of the time it can be controlled by judicious pruning every few years. 6. In warmer climates, Dr. Huey overtakes its grafted partner, and its leaves can mildew. Therefore, people in warmer climates should opt for own-root stock, and people in colder climates can choose either own-root or grafted, whichever they prefer. And since I live in zone 5b, and have inadvertently killed more than one plant due to my inexpertise, Dr. Huey will always be welcome in my garden. After all, "a rose is a rose is a rose," and anything pretty and fragrant that survives my mishandling is surely a blessing, no matter how common it is. |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam Sunset 23 CA (My Page) on Sat, Feb 11, 12 at 1:13
| The house down the street had roses put in the year double delight came out which is I think about 1977. Never a huey cane in sight and the roses were well taken care of as the house changed owners 3 times. Then the bank took posession and no one watered. As the roses nearly died due to lack of water, the huey started to grow out on 3 of the plants. And these were old plants, never replaced. So I think, yes it can begin to grow if the top begins to die out. I have also seen it on plants choked by bermuda grass and severely overpruned plants. |
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| I'm quite a bit older than BassandBonsai, but I was noticing a similar pattern as I was reading this thread. It seems to me that it is mainly Californians who despise Dr. Huey, complaining that he too easily takes over and suckers a lot. Almost everyone non-Californian and Zone 6 and further north claims not to have any of those problems, or very rarely at best. I'm sure it's possible that there are Californians somewhere that haven't had Dr. Huey problems, as well as Zone 6 and further north gardeners who have experienced too many Dr. Huey problems. However, they aren't appearing here on our GW thread. So what do you think? Any validity to my observation here that it is only, or maybe primarily, Californians who have problems with Dr. Huey? If so, I'd be curious to find out WHY. What is there about California weather, soil, growing conditions, whatever, that makes Dr. Huey too vigorous and overpowering and excessively suckering? And if it is true that this is a primarily California problem, then maybe it is NOT true the death/near death of the more tender top plant is the main cause of why a Dr. Huey take-over occurs (though that is definitely the main and perhaps only way the take-over tends to occur in Zone 6 and further north). Since I have never grown roses in California, I can say nothing about that experience. But I can definitely state that in the midwest, Zone 6, I bury the grafts a couple inches and that I have never had anything sucker nor any rose get overpowered by Dr. Huey. Whether there is or is not a connection, I don't know, but I have been growing some of my roses for 15 or more years. The only exception to that rule in my yard (midwest Zone 6) is what happened before I moved here. I'm told a woman used to live here who was a wonderful gardener--and I still have legacies of some of her accomplishments growing in my garden. However, the one legacy I got rid of were several Dr. Hueys. Whether she was growing Dr. Huey or Dr. Huey took over after she left and no one cared for her gardens, I couldn't say. By the way, I did let her Dr. Hueys grow a couple years here--I was curious about them. Found out they are gorgeous in their springtime bloom and wretched plants the rest of the year. They no longer live here, needless to say. : ) Kate |
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| California gal here, and now 3 Dr. Huey intrusions, out of 80 roses, but none more than 3 years old. Cl. Aloha which was the worst of them - last May was about 4/5 Dr. Huey. It has come back superbly after my surgery which did not involve digging her out completely, but scraping the area where Dr. Huey canes originated. Aside from Cl. Ahola, I also had a minor intrusion on Blueberry Hill, and a pretty major intrusion on Double Delight. To me now the answer is simple. I recognize those tall shoots with the Dr. Huey leaf shape, and as soon as I see one, I take care of it. To me it will just be part of my normal rose maintenance. From everything I've read Dr. Huey is an ideal rootstock for my climate, and so far my work to keep it at bay has been minimal. |
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| Very few grafted roses in my garden, though since I just ordered several grafted HTs, this is a problem I'm going to have to deal with going forward. My problem will be that I must plant in gopher baskets if the roses are to survive. This restriction means 1) that I am not going to be able to bury the bud union and 2) that ripping out root suckers is going to be a pain. One variety is coming on Fortuniana. I hope it is not as aggressive at taking over as Dr Huey is! Rosefolly |
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| I used to grow roses in CA and now in WA. Dr Huey suckering was common in all my rose gardens there, and I took care of quite a few commercially. Not so much here, although you do see a lot of plain ol Dr H in untended gardens. My own roses, and any other tended rose gardens, do not get suckers. But every spring we CRs get calls from people wanting to know why their white rose is now red. It's not so much a suckering problem here, as it is the scion dying for whatever reason and leaving Dr H as the only live rose. I think it is the planting depth. Everyone plants with the graft well above grade in CA. Most everyone plants with the graft at or just below grade in WA. I don't know why we planted so high in CA - it was the only way I knew at the time, it was a surprise for me to move to WA and find out that you could bury the graft. Dr. Huey was a popular rose when it came out early in the 20th century. Rose gardens of that vintage could have plants that were intended to be Dr H and not just the rootstock. |
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| I think it is more common in warm climates. I've only had it happen once here on a rose that was already dead. Maybe the cold winters keep it in check. |
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| Watch out Rosefolly, most of Fortuniana's root system is very close to the soil surface and it WILL sucker if damaged. Dr. Huey was famous as it was the first dark colored, cold hardy climbing rose. Before its introduction, everything as cold hardy as it is, was white or some pastel color which faded quickly to white or near white. We, in the warmer areas, don't generally bury the bud union because we don't HAVE to. Kim |
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| Mine's a voice from the southeastern US. Dr. Huey is said, with great cynicism, to be the state rose of just about every state in these parts. It's everywhere. In the old large cemetery in Asheville NC, there were (about five years ago) four newly planted Austin roses and about thirty Dr. Hueys scattered throughout the garden. I expect that some folks would come to think that Dr. Huey was a favorite family rose. I garden on acidic red clay as do many folks in these parts. Dr. Huey grows well on slightly basic soils (think of the alkalin playa lake beds that Wasco was established on). Roses on Dr. Huey do not thrive in my soil. Mostly they die after one or two years of low productivity. This means that most of my neighbors (in this valley on these soils) have no roses. Two valleys over there was a house where twenty four modern roses were planted. It was a good looking garden and I could tell that they were well cared for. Three years later there were only seven roses there and at four years, the seven roses had morphed to one good yellow rose (probably Sunflare) and six Dr. Hueys. Six years after the first planting, it was a vegetable garden and the vegetables looked really good. The "one size fits all" rootstock is really as erroneous as the "one size fits all" dress. |
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- Posted by Jbradshaw777 none (My Page) on Tue, Apr 24, 12 at 18:01
| Hi, I am pretty new to this, and could use some advices. I inherited 2 rose bushes from the previous owner of a home I recently bought. I have a few questions regarding these bushes. 1.Both of their bud unions are about 1 ft above ground. This quite different from what I learned from browsing the Internet. Is this something I should be worried about? 2.Their root stock are not vertical. In fact one has a roughly 45 degree angle from being vertical. There is a flimsy wooden stick planted right next to the root stock, which I believe are being used as a support. What might be the reasons that they are in such condition? Is this something I should be worried about? 3.After reading this thread, I now think that one of the bushes has Dr. Huey. There is a pretty thick, old cane that comes out of the root of the 'Judy Garland' (this is the name according to the tag that is still hanging on the root stock.) right at the ground level. It bloomed pink flowers, however they don't look very healthy. I was marveling at the fact that the same bush could have multicolored blooms! But was not quite sure how to prune the Huey portion of the bush. Their leaves look weak and diseased too. The cane looks old and may have been around for a few years. Is there any harm in keeping the cane, I do enjoy seeing more than one color of blooms on the same bush. If it can be kept, how should I prune them? Their leaves and stems look very thin and are quite different from the Judy Garland's. 4.The skins on root stocks appear to be cracking, they look bark-like. I used to see something similar on trees. Is this something I need to worry about? Thanks for your help! |
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