Heirloom - $17.50 (band)
Chamblees - $11.95 (1 gallon)
Roses Unlimited $17 - $22.50 (1 gallon)
Rogue Valley $16.95 (band)
K&M $20-$23 (1 gallon, grafted onto Fortuniana)

shipping extra

Do you have agricultural laws to follow--here many nurseries must submit to inspection and spray for certain pests before shipping their plants. Varies by location.

Local independent old line garden center, Week's potted bare roots from $15.95 to $19.95. Bare roots (REAL bare roots in boxes of saw dust) at the local full line independent nursery $17.95 average. At the local big box stores, body bagged bare roots $10 and under.

5 gallon bud and bloom from $16.97 to $34.97, depending upon whether it's unpatented, patented or Austin (Austin requiring the highest prices), from the independents. Big box stores prices are all over the map, often $10 for 3 gallon culls in bud and bloom. Sometimes gallon culls in bud and bloom for $5.97; sometimes 2 gallons for a few bucks more. Later in the season, when many things are looking tired, the local Home Depot has three gallon Iceberg for $17. As with anything, you have to know what you're looking at and what it should cost. If I do it right, want to spend the gas and have time, there are small, independents where I can find five gallon Icebergs for $9, bud and bloom. Kim
Quart perennials $2.99 to $4.99, depending upon what it is and from what grower. Kim

I only have one nursery I’m aware of in my area that sells own root roses they propagate themselves. They grow a decent variety of OGRs and some of the older moderns which they sell in 1 gallon pots for $15 each (no sales tax added for things they produce themselves...I believe that includes their fruit, jams/jellies, seeds, etc., as well as, their roses). They also offer a few of the most popular varieties in 3 and 5 gallon pots, but not sure of the pricing on those. For the most part, other nurseries around here only sell modern grafted roses they pot from bare roots or bring in already potted. Prices for those range from around $18 to $29 for 2 to 3 gallon size roses in either plastic pots or those “plantable” pots (hard cardboardish ones that you usually don't want to actually plant). One nursery here sells the big 5 gallon size “plantable” pots with roses they planted from bare roots. Pricing for those has increased from around $30 to near $40 in the past couple of years. The moderns I've referenced are generally Weeks or Star roses...we have no local source for Austins that I know of here.

This post was edited by pat_bamaZ7 on Thu, Jan 16, 14 at 11:50

I could, I think, charge a standard price in the UK, for a cutting if I kept the cuttings for a year, selling them on, ready to plant, the following autumn. - with just 2 large stock areas of around 20m x 2m each, there will be space for over 3000 roses. Taking costs of pots and potting mix into account should leave me with around 5pounds profit (assuming I sell them at a comparable price to perennials). All in all, worth investigating since it is possible, working at such a low level, to sell at the many plant fairs, carboot sales and village fetes we have......not to mention casual passing trade. I followed Connie's nursery blog avidly.....and think yep, I can do that. Certainly an easier way of earning a living than either shunting cement and paving slabs around (our Design and Build days) or even working as a jobbing gardener......and I do actually have the space. At any rate, we are in the middle of massive upheaval and a change of career is the least of my anxieties (have done this several times). We have to figure out a way of earning a living....and are prepared to put our eggs in several baskets.......but we are smart, industrious (sometimes) and have energetic offspring. On the downside, we have no money.....but truly, seeds (money) literally grows on trees.

Kim, I was flabberghasted at the price difference between perennials and bands!! I guess it really is a case of what the market will bear, unrelated (it appears) to time and effort.

...put our eggs in several baskets...

How about chickens--an egg farm?

Good luck!

At my local nursery

bareroots in tubs of ??

$14.95 to 18.95 depending on type (had to remember from last year)

Smaller sized 5g bud and bloom $16.95 iceberg and $24.95 for the rest in April once they open their rose fields

4" annuals/perennials run $2.95 to $3.95 depending on plant

When I run down to Ottos, the 5g bigger Austins run $38.95 to $42.95 (last years prices) plus fuel for the over an hour drive

OSH had Weeks bareroots in paper 2g sized bots for $12.99 to $16.99?

"In the UK, and all of Europe, for that matter, roses are always grafted."

I think before I invested much time or money in producing own root bands I'd really, really want to know WHY roses are always grafted there! There has to be a reason and I would want to make sure that whatever it is wouldn't sink me after I've started.

Part of it is what the public is expecting to buy. Think of the backlash the early producers of own root modern roses experienced in the 80s. Budded bare roots cost less than tiny, immature cutting grown plants and produced the expected results virtually immediately compared to the bands. An even larger part is climate driven. Shorter, colder, wetter growing seasons with colder, deeper, longer winters really put the hurt on own root production. Not that it CAN'T be done, but it requires much more time, artificial heat and cutting material plus more time for the own root plants to mature. Add what many here have offered that bands and other small, own root plants simply aren't sufficient for harder, longer, colder climates where budded plants have the vigor and momentum to endure the climate extremes and I think you have some very good reasons why budding has been, and very likely will remain the preferred method in more northern countries.

Budding doesn't require electricity, gas, coal or any other "energy source" to provide a heated green house to push the growth and maturity of the cuttings. For more Mediterranean type climates where that heat naturally occurs, own root production could very likely work. Reduce the light quantity and quality; increase the humidity; reduce the heat and you increase disease and dampening off issues, reducing success as well as the propagation speed.

Observing what happens in climates actually quite effective for own root production over the course of a year gives good clues. Visalia is excellent for own root rose production. Most root quite quickly and easily from about March, when the heat begins increasing and humidity begins falling. Warmer and drier reduces fungal and bacterial growth. They also speed maturation of the propagation material. Adding mist and artificial irrigation with the drier heat works extremely well for rooting cuttings without huge problems with damping off or otherwise rotting. As the heat disappears in fall, the time required increases dramatically and success rates begin falling quickly. Burlington COULD continue propagating over winter, but she said to me she chooses not to heat her green houses over winter to accomplish it. The heating bills cost too much, making it not cost effective. I would believe that would also be the case in a colder, more northern climate, both here and in Europe. Kim

Apart from the budding and heading back, which is the most intense, human driven aspect of european rose growing (performed by a dwindling pool of skilled labourers, mainly eastern european), grafted roses are generally easy, lending themselves to mechanisation, particularly the first year undercutting. Customers also want to see a plant which will flower in its first year..........but, I am neither considering anything on a huge scale, and the plants I will/do grow are likely to appeal to a fairly niche market (species, open-pollinated, natives and naturalised plants). As far as possible from the named clones of particular varieties which dominate many nurseries. No need to worry about plant breeding licences. Gotta be worth a punt.

Campanula,

Roses are 19.95 + here, potted bare root, and the selection is almost exclusively 1960's popular hybrid teas. No Meilland, Austin, Kordes, etc. A serious bummer. (I hope sales are lousy so we get better offerings next season).

I did some online pricing (thanks Hoov) and the killer is shipping. $8 each rose and up. Rosemania did have $12.00 shipping per 2 roses. One place wouldn't list shipping at all.

Good luck to you.

I mentioned these prices in another thread recently. At our top local nursery, new and hard to find older Austin roses, in five gallon Austin containers, with metal tags are $25-30. Star Roses, including Meilland Romanticas, Weeks, and other roses in 3-5 gallon containers are $20-25. Minis are about $15. These are all grafted on Dr Hewey. Diane

Iris_gal, that means your $20 canned roses are all non patent. If they don't sell, I doubt most retailers would consider patented or newer varieties for greater prices as an alternative. Unless they're savy gardeners, most retailers don't think that way. Kim

Seriously wishing we had local nurseries that sold a little of each beauty: Kordes, Harkness, Austins, I would take any one of those if we had them close by. I think I need to start something up around here. I would love the prices if I didn't have to pay shipping, which really adds up quickly.

The closest reputable nursery we have sold 3 gallon for $25, I am thinking the best was Pope John Paul II...I recall seeing no Austins there. :(

Becky and John Hook sell own-root roses; their nursery is in France;La Roseraie du Désert. Specializes in teas, chinas and noisettes, but they do offer others. I HIGHLY recommend them.
What bugs me about buying roses is the shipping costs. I think it takes a lot of time and dedication to produce the plants, and I do not object to paying for this. But the shipping costs ARE high,and they do stick in my craw a bit, but what can you do? It's not the fault of the rose growers,and if I want specific varieties-and I do-it's the only way.Here in Italy, the selection tends to be sort of limited...bart

I was pricing Graham Thomas here in ont. 14.99 bareroot 18.00 shipping plus federal and provincial tax. Just to receive a rose I could of bought at the grocery store for 14.00 plus tax. Man am I regretting not buying GT last summer.

I buy a lot of stuff online and the price you pay is price delivered. Buying in quantity reduces the percentage of shipping cost to total cost.

For me, the cost of the plant is only part of it. I spend more money on the cage. There is also the sweat equity in the hole digging and planting. Digging holes in my rocky, clay soil Is a bear and I hate to think what a gardener would charge.

O,I thought of another European nursery that sells own-root roses:Nini Sanremo, here in Italy. Plus, I think that Belle Epoque might offer some own-roots.
Frankly, for my conditions, I'm beginning to think that grafted roses are preferable,just because they are bigger and brawnier and can make it through their first summer in my hot, dry garden with less fuss. Own-roots,being smaller, seem to need more care for a longer time. I plant grafted roses deeply, and they seem to "go own root" pretty quickly anyway, so I feel I'm getting the best of both worlds, in a way.But I will continue to order from Becky and John Hook,because their collection is so superb and unique,and the Nino Sanremo plants are good, too,though their selection is not nearly as interesting to my mind. I try to make the most of the shipping costs by placing pretty large orders.

I remember talking with the daughter of the founder of Tiny Petals at the LA fair. Her mother Dee Bennet got interested in Minis from Dr. Moore and everyone laughed at her and said minis were just a waste of time. She was a single divorced mom who created her own roses in the back yard and finally married again to a great guy who bought her a greenhouse and encouraged her in her roses.

Dee sold roses on the counters of local coffee shops and gift shops and later at the Del Mar fair where her roses became a tradition there. She named some of her best roses after the people who gave her her start such as the lady with the coffee shop. I always think of her stick to it attitude when I see the roses. When everybody said no, she just found a way and kept on. Her daughter was fun too and had a no nonsense personality. She would say her mind. I remember at the fair, she had a THESE ARE NOT HOUSEPLANTS sign that made me laugh. I know there is a place for your own root roses. Just like Dee, you will find your own path even if others say don't.

Roseseek,
I'm afraid you're right. We dedicated gardeners would pay 25% more for newer roses but the heads-that-be up the chain ladder aren't doing their homework methinks. It also shows in the perrenial/annual selection. I've resorted to seeds this year.
Irisgal

I went to the Pacific Rose Society auction today where they had 160 varieties, about 700 roses in all, almost all grafted bare roots. Almost all of them were interesting and worthwhile and I think went for $10 or less. Many went in the $5 range. Belonging to a group like this (which I just joined) is obviously a great way to get roses.

As to grafted vs own root, if you could do either for yourself, which would it be? Own root cuttings is easier but it is slower although in the long run the result may be superior. However, the rose on its' own roots may be weak, certainly weaker than Dr Huey or Fortuniana so some roses may need to be grafted. Grafted roses are stronger from the beginning which has some advantages. If the young roses aren't meticulously cared for (say) by inexperienced gardeners or are subjected to stress a grafted rose would have a better chance of surviving. Whether you go for own root or graft may also depend on where you are. In Connecticut my grafted roses planted deep in rich moist compost did as well or better than own roots over the long term. The graft simply never wears out under these conditions but here in California I don't think this can be the case. From what I've seen, grafts that are above or even at ground level under dry conditions deteriorate. The fact that they don't produce basals is evidence of this. After a while the rose continues off canes which themselves wear out and eventually the rose wears out. This would seem to me to be an argument for own root.

So what is the answer? My grafted roses planted last winter got huge and bloomed their heads off which is why I bought grafted roses. In the future, however, I'm looking to make cuttings of the best and most interesting roses I can find and eventually have them all be own root.

The best answer, Henry, is to let the rose tell you which it needs. I grow several which are stunted runts on their own roots. I intend to bud them once the stocks are ready. Most of the others are fine as own root with a few budded. It honestly all depends upon the rose. Kim

Kim, I think if you could grow most roses under the ideal conditions I had in CT they would be better on their own roots in the long run. There will be none of the graft issues and the rose will spread and strengthen. However, these conditions are usually not present here in hot, dry SoCal with our poor soil. It's really a matter of water. We don't have the conditions or means to even create good compost or to organically improve the soil in a meaningful way. The result is that under the conditions that most people grow roses here grafted roses have an advantage in that they will grow well at least for a while. Probably many grafted roses will do better than the same roses on their own roots.

Camps,

Budded vs own-root and bands vs potted grown ups vs bare-roots vs potted up bare roots are two different subjects that are often discussed at the same time but should not be confused. The only real relationship these two subjects have is that, for obvious reasons, you cannot sell a grafted band. Otherwise any combination is applicable in theory (but often not in commercial practice).

If mail / internet order and shipping is in your plans you should consider that bare-roots (grafted or not) are MUCH cheaper and MUCH more convenient to ship. Long distance (EU) shipping of anything other than the smallest of bands is too costly afaik. Now, the smallest of bands are the frailest and the most sensitive to damage due to adverse shipping conditions which brings us back to the reality that long distance shipping of anything other than bare-roots is an iffy proposition.

To be able to sell bare-roots one should spent more time and resources growing the rose which increases the costs but maybe it can be done. In order to being able to provide bare-roots reliably and consistently though. one should invest in some sort of cold storage facility which may be beyond the means and the scope of a 'backyard' operation.

BTW One can buy grafted bare-root roses in Europe (albeit just the common HT's and the like) at much lower prices that what you may be thinking. Prices can be as low as 3 Euros and they don't often exceed 10 (even when royalties are involved).

IMO You will have to find something that would differentiate your operation from most of the rest. There are just four subjects one can differentiate: Price, quality, rarity and service. If you think you can differentiate yourself in one or more of these for your target market then by all means go ahead.
Nik

There are Nurseries in Europe growing roses on thir own roots, We have one in S.W. France specialising in Teas Noisettes Chinas and Hybrid Giganteas, There is also Talos Gardens specialing in Gallicas Damasks Albas etc also based down here, I believe there are several others in Northern Europe

Contact for talos is:
http://www.rosesanciennes-talos.com/

They're a lot cheaper than that in Germany Camps. Daft as it sounds, I ordered some Tantau, Kordes and Austins from Germany because they were €8.95 each plus €11 shipping. It was cheaper than ordering from DAR only 40 miles away :-) Quality was excellent and they arrive by DHL in 2 days.

John, thanks for mentioning Talos gardens; I'll have to take a look! bart

Hi caldonbeck
The roses you purchased from Germany were cheaper than the UK because of exploitive agricultural labour costs there. Austin's roses reflect the true cost of production in the UK.
On a small scale, to make a rose nursery a viable concern, consider how many roses it will be necessary to sell each year, then consider the amount that likely won't be sold and will eventually have to be destroyed, then advertising, etc potting mixes, watering costs etc. This is not a lucrative business, ours still require that I take outside work to survive

Ho, I cannot imagine actually making a living from growing roses.....merely funding my increasingly expensive hobby of gardening, especially having now gone quite off the scale in terms of size and scope.
Yeah, I have also ordered roses from Europe although I cannot see that there is much difference in exploitative labour costs there than over here - have you ever visited the fens? gangmasters are the new 'employer royalty'.....and it has always been so. The last time English workers were employed, in any quantity in agriculture/horticulture was before WW2. Since then, we have relied on a picaresque supply of labour ranging from POWs, approved school and borstal boys, Italians, Irish and most recently, the eastern Europeans.
This is a crazy situation which reflects the disparity between labour and capital, supermarket pricing and farm costings, demands for ever cheaper food and an insane push to thrash every microgramme of fertility from worn-out (and rapidly vanishing dustbowl status) soils.

There will be a reckoning.

john_hook if DA prices reflect the real cost of rose production in the UK, how come one can get roses from other UK nurseries at half the price of DA and Beales'? IMO, DA (and Beales') just exploit their name and reputation as well as the large variety of roses they're offering. Bare-root quality wise I have been pretty disappointed by DA (UK). Can't say the same about Beales'.

Real cost of mass producing a grafted rose (excluding royalties, new rose development, marketing and the rest of that stuff) should be in the realm of one Euro anywhere in Europe.
Nik

2 points
Germany has no minimum wage for agricultural workers unlike the UK and the most of the rest of western europe. Most Germans including employers would like to see one but Angela Merkel doesn't. This doesn't go down too well with farmers in the rest of Europe.
Rose production costs are not a simple how much does it cost to produce 100,000 rose plants of the same type in one field. Both Beales and Austin have around 1000 varieties that they need to propagate. The majority will end up getting dumped. This may be regarded as a poor business model but both of these nurseries are based on a passion.
If a rose nursery only produces 50 or so varieties they can cut costs enormously. Vintage Gardens in California was often the target of complaints about the cost of their roses, they went out of business even though they had plenty of orders (they had more than 3000 varieties), don't be surprised if the same doesn't happen to Beales. As the saying goes 'Use it or Lose it'

MANY excellent points in this thread! "Obsessives" (myself included) would want to offer every rose possible. Unfortunately, that is a guaranty for failure. The only way to succeed is to offer only those varieties which propagate quickly and easily, producing the highest quantity of Grade 1 plants, using the methods you prefer; limit the number of varieties to what you can realistically handle and primarily to only those which SELL in large quantities. It is/was wonderful for obscure and unusual beauties to be so readily available, but you can't make the required return on investment to make them pay their way. At best, quantities will always be limited compared to the ones which sell due to their names and reputations. And, very many of them were absolute witches to propagate, which is probably why many of them fell out of commerce as quickly as they did.

I'm sorry you have to work outside your passion to keep the doors open, John. That has been the case with MANY nurseries here in the US for easily the past fifteen years. Michael's Premier, Amity Heritage, Spooner's Oregon Minis, Tiny Petals and a host of others, including Vintage, had to resort to generating the necessary outside cash flow to permit them to continue their passions. The reasons are legion, but most boil down to too few have too limited resources to support most businesses and products. Without becoming too political, I think we're all familiar with the underlying sins responsible for our shared current mess.

I don't know what the figures are here currently, but by the late 90s, early 2000s, the basic wholesale cost to produce a quality, budded, unpatented bare root in any quantity was $2.25. That is what it cost Arena and Ashdown to produce budded, unpatented roses. Perhaps larger concerns could shave a few cents off that price due to quantities, but the labor cost was fairly standard across the industry for stock produced in Wasco, CA due to the unionized Irish Farms which supplied the majority of labor services to most in the area. Patented and "specialty" types (Austin, Poulsen, etc.) varieties had royalty costs added. We've had the "luxury" of "dumping" excess, unsold stock as well as the "culls", those which failed to develop into at least Grade 1.5 plants, to mass merchant suppliers who offered them as cheap, canned, bud and bloom plants. It has been common to find patented varieties identified as older, unpatented types so the inferior plants could be sold to recoup their costs without having to pay the required royalties.

Then, there were the "schlock producers" who supplied the cheap market. Their offerings were available in fairly large numbers to wholesale growers at costs of roughly $1.80 (not what they cost them to produce, but what they SOLD them for) each, bare root. These are/were the mostly misnamed, unpatented, usually fairly badly virused canned plants, usually produced by companies employing unprotected, "farm worker" type labor, you could often pick up for $10 (sometimes less) for bud and bloom, 5 gallon plants. It was common to find several varieties of fairly similar appearance all labeled as the same variety. We still find them at big box home improvement stores, but their ilk has more recently given way to stock from the remaining suppliers who used to rely upon larger independent nurseries to move their products. At one time, you would NEVER see Monrovia stock at a Lowe's or Home Depot. Now, it is common in my area. Sad. Kim

Well, 2 things, there are no other nurseries, of any size, selling roses on their own roots but more to the point, it is likely to be the only possible way I can do it on a small scale without rose fields and machinery. It is, however, perfectly feasible for me to keep 2-300 roses as sources of cutting material, as well as one decent sized propagation area. Moreoever, if I do go down this route, I expect to have to diversify considerably if I intend to make a viable business.....so we need tea room, courses, a display garden, tree crafts, basketry, garden structures, design services etc.....all within the scope and skills range of sweetheart and I, plus offspring (at least 2 of them).
Being able to operate a viable business also impacts upon planning laws for permanent dwellings.....getting planning permission to build a home hinges upon requiring accommodation in order to run a business (which can be of a very modest nature) - such as agro-forestry....or anything which loosely comes under the forestry rubrik).

We are keeping as many options open as possible.

But they don't pay per hour so minimum wage rules don't apply. They are self employed earning pennies per graft (the main man and his buddy that is) They're not paid by the hour to graft roses or they'd do it at their own pace. I buy a lot from DAR but I can't see why they cost so much, other than the huge marketing machine. Tantau, Kordes etc aren't so marketed. I won't feel bad for ordering roses from Europe, it's how free markets work, I can so I will.

Our local large nursery with a selection of about 500 roses sell at about Euro 2.50 wholesale and Euro 3,90 retail out of patent budded bare root roses and at about Euro 6-9 retail patented ones. They mass export at even lower prices. They even have facilities and skilled staff for in vitro micropropagation. Large Western European nurseries sell at Euro 6-12 retail even patented ones. Bierkreek in the Netherlands, a smallish but very reputable operation, offer a vast selection of about 2000 roses (including many very rare ones) at the price of E10-15 for a budded bare-root (see link below). The only reason I have not tried to buy from them is that they seem not to accept CCs and bank transfers for smallish amounts can be prohibitively expensive from Greece. So, all in all, prices of 18 or 20 euros cannot in my mind be justified by cost of production whichever way one looks at it.
Nik

Here is a link that might be useful: Bierkreek bare root list

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Thu, Feb 20, 14 at 13:50

Oh, I absolutely agree, I never buy Austin roses since they are, quite definitely, having a laugh. They are capitalising on a brand name. If I wanted Austins (which I hardly do), I am afraid to say that I buy them from different growers who, while paying a PBR, can still offer excellent roses for HALF the cost. This is nothing to do with labour costs, inventory numbers, loss-making policies.......and everything to do with hype, advertising, branding, aspiration blah blah. Although I am influenced by price, I will pay extra for quality.....but only if I consider it justified (and I don't).
Ah yes, Nik, I have ordered from Bierkreek but had to pay an eye-watering bank transfer charge which precluded me from buying any more. I am staggered at the cost of roses from your local nursery! The cheapest roses I have bought, from bona-fide rose growers (cottage-memories), are around 7 euros (for a non-patent HT or floribunda and 9 euros for Austins). The best ones I have ever bought cost 8-9 pounds (around 11 euros).

Camps,
These are actual prices. For example here is Golden Celebration at the nice price of 9euros,
http://www.avramis.gr/1F2B0B9D.el.aspx
while here is Comte de Chambord for Euro 7.50
http://www.avramis.gr/459E2862.el.aspx
and here is Mr. Lincoln at the staggering price of Euro 3.90
http://www.avramis.gr/3DD2D1EA.el.aspx
and Ingrid Bergman at the price of Euro 4.40
http://www.avramis.gr/5812A787.el.aspx
Nik

Here in BC bare root roses from the big box stores are around 8-10 dollars each. At my local nursery the prices for roses just went up by $5 so now its $30 for a regular rose and $35 for an Austin. There is also another nursery nearby that has very few roses but they are high quality own roots for only $20 and they always have at least one Austin.