I've always wondered why the peeps who made the "blue" roses didn't use hydrangea pigments/genes instead of pansy. Hydrangeas are blue in acidic soils which roses love. Though I don't know if roses' aluminum absorption are sufficient enough to make the hydrangea pigment show a true blue.

This got me thinking, if this genetic defect makes petunias blue, could this defect have also been present in roses or is it just with petunias? Maybe it's what makes Blue Bayou the color it is? They should totes study that rose next. But still, great find! This is some really interesting news.

This post was edited by Resolute_Noir on Thu, Jan 2, 14 at 23:43

From the not so technical side:

What we loosely term "lavender" was called "blue" in the vernacular of English garden literature of yore. This was likely because lavender hues were the closest available in garden plants of their time, but also I think, because the writers perceived the blue in them.

Purple, is the expression of red and blue together. Therefore in my opinion blue already exists in roses. I would like to think that a blue rose has already been culled or lost at least once; however, this would only be probable for an ongoing program focused on finding true blue or from one of those extraordinary accidents (that do happen). I am also of the opinion that the gain in popularity of purple roses and the modern work in that color range is moving us closer.

(I think of delphiniums - not in terms of the pigment so famously associated with them, but in terms of phenotypic expression).

I believe a natural blue rose is possible. I think blue is just recessive; little boy blue is very shy.

I have been wondering all along during the discussion on blue roses if my Blue Bayou, which is quite bluish growing in our alkaline soil (and the bluest rose I've ever seen), would be even more blue grown in an acidic soil. Does anyone out there have Blue Bayou and grow it in acidic soil? This spring I think I'll dose my BB good with fertilizer for acid loving plants and see if anything changes, even slightly, in its color. Is there another "bluing" agent for use on hydrangeas that is stronger than the fertilizers that I could try? Diane

There is Hydrangea Blue, Diane, made by Grow More which I buy here easily. I don't find it on line in any searches, but these products on Amazon will give you the idea. Aluminum sulfate is the active ingredient for turning hydrangeas blue. Good luck! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: aluminum fertilizers on Amazon

I don't know if I'm ready for blue roses. That first one should have a good name though.

Thanks for the link, Kim. I just looked at the products and realized that the soil acidifier which I have for the few roses that have some chorosis problems in my garden contains the same ingredient, aluminum sulfate, as the hydrangea bluing agent. For some reason, I thought there might be a different formulation for the hydrangeas. Blue Bayou has never been chlorotic, but this year I'll try some of my soil acidfier on BB and see what happens. I can't wait. Maybe it will be I who finds the Holy Grail of Rosedom, the fabled Blue Rose--heheh--getting a little carried away here. This is good entertainment for lousy winter nights. Diane

I use soil sulphur to blue up my hydrangeas. It takes longer than aluminium sulphate but it also lasts longer.

I'm glad I finally have time to read this - it's very interesting. It reminds me of my mother, who loved blue hydrangeas, and had a front yard full of them. The men in our family were all in construction, and she would prowl the driveway for nails (they were always falling out of the trucks), and any found would get tossed under her hydrangeas! She just said it was the steel, and I had no reason to think otherwise.

In fact, I had questioned this on a forum (not part of GW), but no one had any idea. Now I read all this about aluminum, and can only think - go figure! Just one part of "steel" may well be responsible! The things you learn.....

:O)
LynnT

This post was edited by thedogsLL on Sat, Jan 4, 14 at 20:18

Sandandsun, regarding your statement:

" Purple, is the expression of red and blue together. Therefore in my opinion blue already exists in roses."

There are at least two ways to produce the color purple. One way is to mix a blue pigment with a red pigment. If that were the only way, I would agree with your conclusion. But a second way to produce purple is to have a single pigment which is purple in color and that seems to be the case with purple roses.

I've read the no blue pigment theory. I'm not convinced that it is correct.

We already see many permutations of "purple" in roses from very reddish purple to very bluish purple.

As I stated at the start of my previous post, the statements are "from the not so technical side." If you reread that post it almost contains more disclaimers about opinion, thoughts, ideas, and beliefs than actual statements.

I hold with my opinions, thoughts, ideas, and beliefs on the subject. They may not be correct; however, they may in time prove to be true.

I can imagine a case where the "blue pigment" was not identified. I can also imagine a case where the identified purple pigment expresses itself as blue, etc.

I hold with my opinions, thoughts, ideas, beliefs, and conjecture on the subject.

I found this somewhere around the internet. Check it out. According to this research, the blue pigment "delphinidin" does exist on roses! But only on the leaves. Specifically of the 1964 Kordes rose SAMBA.

They've also studied bluish purple roses like BLUE MOON, MME. VIOLET, and RHAPSODY IN BLUE. They have found cyanins in these rose and from what I understand, are copigmented with purple pigments that makes them more purplish that blue. They also found that cyanins start accumulating in fading petals of Rhapsody in Blue so it appears bluer as it fades. The same happens with other fading purple roses like BLEU MAGENTA.

In the end, they've come to a conclusion that roses are among the many genera of flowering plants that are capable of producing blue pigments and thus true blue flowers, but roses also produce other pigments that are able to counteract or overpower the blue pigments so that's why we haven't seen true blue roses so far.

Here is a link that might be useful: Research regarding blue pigments on roses and bluish purple roses.