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| There have been a number of posts in the past few months concerning the loss of rose sources and how many rose varieties are falling out of commerce. I'm working on uploading some old catalogs and rose lists to Help Me Find in archives so there is a record of what USED to be available fairly easily. Many of these roses we could buy any time we wished, are now probably lost.
So far, I've archived the 1931 Armstrong Roses catalog. It makes for a very interesting read. You may find it at this URL. http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=17.23141&tab=2 It's quite interesting that during The Depression, Armstrong offered over 200 varieties of bare root roses. The list is actually larger than what is posted as there are still a few which aren't in the database and are still being researched. Pixie Treasures here in Southern California, celebrated their twenty-fifth anniversary in 1995 by listing 95 miniature roses available for sale in their anniversary catalog. In it, 10" mini tree roses were offered for $27.95, postage included. You can view this archive here. http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=17.23139&tab=2 Miniature Plant Kingdom was an amazing place here in California. I've uploaded their rose list for January 23, 1996. You might be surprised to note that on that date, they listed 438 miniature roses for sale. Only 416 are uploaded as there are nearly two dozen unregistered roses on their list for which no further information has been found. The URL for this archive is below. http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=17.23140&tab=2 One of the most exciting to do is Roses of Yesterday and Today. In order to keep the strain on the database to a minimum, instead of listing them by decade, I've combined all the varieties (except for the dozen or so for which no information other than that in the catalog is available and are not in the database) listed in their 1950s and 1970-1992 catalogs. I don't have the catalogs from the decade of the 1960s and would love if someone could photocopy the indexes for me to be included. In this archive, you will find the 672 varieties of roses they offered during this span of years. Then, remember Dr. Manners stating they had their own characteristic strain of RMV. Browse the roses which passed through ROYAT's hands. Remember that for many of them, this source was the final remaining source for many of their last years in commerce. Many were likely already infected before they passed through here, and were surely infected because of being offered here. The link to this archive is below. This is just a small portion of what is out there. From this little bit, it's obvious we have lost MUCH, with more to follow. I haven't even gotten to the Sequoia lists, which were hefty. Kim |
Here is a link that might be useful: Roses of Yesterday and Today Archive 1950-59; 1970-1992
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Kim, I have the RoYaT catalogs for 1964 and 1965. If you like, I will scan the indexes and send them to you. Rosefolly |
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| This is a wonderful thing you're doing, Kim! Saving this information is very important. I wish there was a way to save all those roses too! I would encourage everyone to take a look at those lists and if you have any of those lost roses to make sure they are on your rose inventories at HMF. This may be our only way of preserving some of these rare beauties! |
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| A couple of years ago I had to beg for a J&P catalog. It was the last year before they went bankrupt and I guess they weren't too interested in sending their usual quantity of catalogs. This year I've had at least 3 or 4 of them so far. But how long will that last? Today's garbage may be tomorrows treasure. Glad to hear someone is compiling a record of them.......Maryl |
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| Another self-less act by a Garden Web Forum member..... Bless you Kim! It sounds like a lot of work. Lee |
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| Thanks Lee, I appreciate it and am happy others are finding the information interesting and beneficial. It is a bit of work and takes some time, but I've always loved diving into interesting catalogs to dig out their treasures. What really hurts is mining it from those businesses I knew and did business with them. Lost, old friends, are always sad. Kim |
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| I ws looking for the Biltmore catalog that was on line several years ago. Instead, I found this, which is worth waiting for. http://books.google.com/books?id=AJbkYsIGUvAC&pg=PA4&dq=biltmore+nurse ry+catalog&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MbQ6T778GuqdiQLxiZWUDA&ved=0CFAQ6AEwAQ#v=onep age&q=biltmore nursery catalog&f=false |
Here is a link that might be useful: 1913 rose catalog
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- Posted by harborrose 8a-PNW (My Page) on Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 16:57
| This is something I've wondered - I've read or seen a couple of old ARS annuals on line, but know there are many more. Are there any plans to put the rest on-line - aren't there some on the Arnold Arboretum site? - or on the books link for google? Kim, thank you. Ann, thank you. |
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| Thanks Ann, that's interesting. I know there are a few on Google, Gean, but have no idea if there are any plans to put more on line. Kim |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam Sunset 23 CA (My Page) on Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 21:31
| Thanks for the great memories I was thinking it would be fun to compile a reference of roses for different areas...sort of like if you can grow (rose A) than you should be able to grow (roses B,C,D and so on) Mine would go, Chrysler Imperial ( Oklahoma, Olympiad, Royal William, Papa M.) Memorial Day ( Tiffany, Radox Bouquet, Johann Strauss, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Chicago Peace,Sweet Afton, Bewitched, Bride's Dream) Eternal Flame (Gold Medal, New Day, Lemon Spice, Elina) The catalogs just put them in alphabetical order and let you fend for yourself. But how I used to enjoy reading the RoY&T catalog on my breaks at the nursery. Back in the early 80s the glossy Weeks catalog would come out and our Boss would decide what he was going to bring in. His mother would make him get a few of her favorites that were dependable in our climate. I'd look them all over but my favorite of all was the customer reviews and words of praise in the Roses of Yesterday Catalog. I read it over and over trying to decide what to get. My first roses from them was a Felecia and a Little White Pet. I still grow them today. |
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| Re the ARS annuals: they are on line up to 1922 when the copyright law kicked in (retroactively). Also searchable are the more recent catalogs, but all Google's allowed to give us is the line in which the word appears. Really obscure are ARS references from before they were the ARS. ARS gets mentioned in articles in the New York Times for their shows in NYC. They had one show for professionals and a second (several week later) show for amateurs. To use the NYT search, you need to go to a library that accesses it and other newspapers. More appear each year, but only for libraries that are willing to pay access. If anyone has seen a Pomaria catalog or any of the catalogs from the huge rose industry down in Georgia (Thomasville, IIRC) we need to share those. |
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- Posted by harborrose 8a-PNW (My Page) on Wed, Feb 15, 12 at 0:33
| I wondered if there was some kind of a copy right law involved. I wish they'd just put them into the public domain and let people read them if they are interested. That really aggravates me. anyway, thanks. |
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| I agree with you, Gean. There is no money for the ARS to make on the old annuals or their information. The organization is probably five years away from following the AARS into "rose history", then, who profits from their copyrights? Allowing them into public domain so the information they contain can be shared and learned by many more than who can find the actual books is the only honorable thing to do with them. Unless the knowledge and information is shared and people benefit from it, what value does it have? Kim |
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Wed, Feb 15, 12 at 6:51
| The story always was that since the Annuals were article collections (like the magazine) the copyrights of the individual articles belonged to the individual authors. Chasing them all down to get permission would be an enormous task. So any reprints could only be of Annuals where the copyright had expired. |
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- Posted by lookin4you2xist 9b (breaks4rainbows@yahoo.com) on Wed, Feb 15, 12 at 7:22
| I'm sure this is just going to frustrate me a little when I find a rose that I would like, and can not find it for sale anyplace. Thank You VERY much for taking the time to do this. |
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