|
| I just read this:
According to Justin Ekuan of Dana Point, CA, a rosarian who has spent many years experimenting with a variety of rootstocks and budding produces more uniformity in the quality of the plants; he says, "There's no question that grafted roses are far superior in size and bloom production - at least twice that of own-root roses." I don't mind waiting for own root roses to mature if it makes a better plant, flower quality, flower production, disease resistance, etc. But if grafted is better why buy own root?? I am questioning whether to buy own root or grafted the following roses: DAVID AUSTINS: Molineux
Others: Bonica
What do you folks think are the pros and cons of grafted vs. own roots on the above roses? Thanks Lee |
Follow-Up Postings:
|
| I don't know whether Dr. Ekuan grows hybrid teas and floribundas exclusively, but it's generally conceded that the majority of HTs do much better grafted. On the other hand, many if not most shrub roses grow vigorously on their own roots, for example Bonica, Graham Thomas, Sally Holmes, and Gruss an Aachen from your list. David Austin roses generally are fine on their own roots, maybe with a few exceptions for the smaller varieties. Molineux is a free-blooming compact shrub on its own roots. I don't know whether it grows bigger when grafted. If so, that isn't necessarily a good thing, depending on how much room you have. |
|
- Posted by flaurabunda 5b Central IL (My Page) on Thu, Feb 9, 12 at 15:23
| That's been debated here a lot. I can tell you only one thing for certain--the statement holds true for a newly planted rose during the first season. A new own-root is tiny baby, a grafted shrub is much older. So of course it would produce more blooms and be larger. I always chuckle when I hear that statement referenced, because it leaves out all the important information that are prerequisites for this pronouncement. When were the 2 compared? At planting time, at the end of 1 season, or 5 years down the road? It matters. Where were the 2 compared? In sunny California, or zone 4? Which roses were compared? Some certain roses are notoriously weaker as own-root versions. What kind of soil was it, and what kind of rootstock was used on the grafted shrub? It matters. I don't recall any of the roses you listed being the ones that are hot-topics regarding own root versus grafted....except perhaps Jude....But I am far from an expert on these particular roses or how they perform where you're located. I do know that we have some spectacular folks here on the forum that are closer to you. Hopefully they'll see your question and get some great info out here soon. :) |
|
- Posted by henry_kuska z5 OH (kuska@neo.rr.com) on Thu, Feb 9, 12 at 15:52
| Let the rose decide. Plant a grafted rose on a slant so that some of the actual desired rose is below ground level yet the grafted rootstock is not too deep (so as not able to grow). Or, plant the grafted rose normally and take a cutting and start it right next to the "mother" plant. So as to not violate the patent (if still under patent), keep only the "winner". |
|
| This is a subject that really doesn't have a right or wrong answer. It's what ever works best for you and the rose you're trying to grow. And only experimenting with it will tell you which is better in your garden under your conditions. What works for people in cold zones is going to be way different than what works for people in warm zones and even within a zone there are variables that could make a difference. |
|
| Lee, I'm in Encino, just over the hill top from Brentwood, Beverly Hills, Santa Monica, Pacific Palisades, to give you an idea of the zone. Using the new interactive USDA zone map, I am zone 10 a, massaged a bit by both elevation, coastal influence and inland valley heat/wind. From growing roses, old, new, modern, many types of commercial as well as several thousand seedlings of my own, I have observed that pretty much any slow growing, slow to develop (compared to the average), lower vigor rose is going to be superior budded than own root. That doesn't matter whether you're talking about initial season or ten years down the road, AS LONG AS the proper root stock is selected; it's planted properly with the appropriate culture and cultivation supplied; in the right place. I have grown well over 1,500 various cultivars in Granada Hills, Newhall, Chatsworth, Encino and Pacific Palisades and lower Topanga Canyon and have frequently studied many elsewhere, particularly when volunteering at The Huntington Library for many years in the 80s and 90s. For these climates, soil and water types, I CAN say that weaker growing plants: older HTs which mimic Teas in general, those which are sparsely foliated with longer inter nodal canes between growth buds/leaves, are best budded. They are more productive and more vigorous, particularly in their first years, though perhaps not quite as long lived as own root plants, particularly if left to their own devices for extended periods of time, they have developed into the desired specimen several seasons faster than their own root counterparts. Yellow Teas and Yellow Tea/Noisettes (Reve d'Or, Duchesse de Auerstadt, etc.) can be grown own root, but can often take several seasons to develop the root system necessary to permit them to begin to climb as desired. Weak growers in general, such as Fantan, Grey Pearl, Lavender Pinocchio, Angel Face, Sterling Silver, Dove and their type are not only best budded, but often virtually impossible to keep alive own root. Though they CAN be rooted, they very frequently do not develop into anything you would call a decent garden plant. Strongly multiflora based types and those too closely related to Rugosa hate our soils, becoming very chlorotic due to the lack of available iron in our alkaline 'dirt'. Nearly every one of these I've grown performed significantly better when budded to Dr. Huey than own root, seldom suffering from chlorosis and usually developing in to the plants I desired much faster, flowering more heavily and in the violet shades I sought, instead of the pale, faded versions chlorosis induces. Rugosas suffered from the same ailments, presumably from the same causes. Budding also prevents roses from suckering where not desired, making it a "must" for growing aggressive colonizers in a more "refined" setting. As long as the plant rooted well, easily; wasn't adversely affected by the alkaline soil and water; and possessed average or better vigor own root, it grew completely acceptably as an own root plant. Often, those, when attacked by gophers, rebounded more easily than budded plants. They also never produced the undesirable stock suckers, as there was none. I can't offer any experience about most of the Austin roses you've listed as the only versions of any of them I've ever grown have been budded as they were the only versions available to me when I planted them. I am rooting Sharifa Asma right now and she appears to want to root and grow unassisted, even as heavily virused as this particular Star plant is. Graham Thomas has been far too much plant for far too little color in several of these gardens, including this one in Encino, both own root as well as budded. My initial Hortico plant of GT only flowered at the ends of 8'+ canes, and could not be forced to repeat without being literally bare rooted and moved. None of the plants I rooted from it from flowering wood for several years performed any differently. Those plants were ceremoniously hacked into small pieces and sent to the great landfill in the hills. A VERY satisfying afternoon activity! The current one is an old Star Rose budded plant. It requires five feet of growth be produced before any color is generated. Better than the original, but still far from what I wish it would do. It gets all day sun, so it isn't reaching for light. It does demand a lot more water than any of the others to perform, but even with it, the plant mass required for flowering is just too much. The "Others" you've listed have been completely satisfactory in the areas I listed above as own root plants. Ironically, there used to be (may still be) a bed of Iceberg at The Huntington, to the right side of the huge Mermaids on the iron pergola. There were many plants bedded there to create a statement. All but one were budded, the odd one being one we rooted to replace one which failed. The own root plant grew more freely, quickly growing larger, fuller than the budded ones. We used to joke that Dr. Huey acted as a "dwarfing root stock" (as used to produce dwarf fruit trees) for Iceberg. Though, this plant could easily have been propagated from material which was closer to the climbing mutation than the budded bushes were. Now, if you were inquiring whether to grow Nigrette or Chateau de Clos Vougeot budded or own root, I would strongly suggest budded. The same with the weaker growers I listed above. If you were asking about Reine des Violettes, Veilchenblau, Violet Hood or some other multiflora based, violet toned rose, I would also strongly suggest budded plants. The same with many of the weaker growing Pernetiana type HTs. If you were asking about more vigorous types created in the middle of the last Century which have shown themselves suitable for own root production, those I would encourage you to try own root as many of them have performed admirably in the areas I listed earlier. It all depends upon the vigor of the variety and the gene set it inherited. Kim |
|
- Posted by kittymoonbeam Sunset 23 So CA (My Page) on Thu, Feb 9, 12 at 19:25
| Maybe at first but as the years roll on, some of my own roots lived longer than the grafted plants did. I like the shape of the own root plants. They have a more natural look than ones where the canes all arise from the same point. But some roses will not grow well in my soil unless on Dr. Huey. Some of the DA roses I found out have to be grafted because the roots they grow don't like the soil here at all. Cold isn't a consideration for me so I like to grow own root because of the natural shape of the plants and sometimes it keeps them more compact. Regarding the HTs in my garden, most of the own roots eventually have more canes and smaller flowers but again, a more pleasing bush shape. I don't trim them down to 4 or 5 canes a year. The plants seem to improve every year. Some HTs I have grown really need that rootstock to give a respectable amount of flowers and you have to be choosing the right rootstock for your soil. I used to plant all my roses as bareroot budded plants. I prefer own root plants now but will still buy a grafted one if the roses own roots hate my soil or it's a rose that is a weak grower on its own roots. |
|
| Absolutely, Kitty. For the vast majority of South West Desert and Coastal soils and water, Dr. Huey IS the root stock required. Multiflora gets very chlorotic, very quickly in many of these areas. Canina HATES it here. Pink Clouds can work in some of the less alkaline areas, but inland, it's not very good unless in highly amended beds or pots. I should also have included it depends upon whether your soil is natural or engineered. For highly compacted, engineered areas, Dr. Huey is vastly superior due to the drainage and density of the soil. Seismic requirements dictate newly developed areas to be compacted to between a 95 and 98 percentile, meaning there is NO drainage and the soil is nearly stone. Weaker root systems often just won't compete with that. Dr. Huey often seems immortal in these parts. It will find the way if at all possible. My old Newhall garden hadn't been developed, so it was native, virgin soil which had never been cultivated. Once the harder compacted areas were broken through, drainage was superb and most suitable own roots which could withstand the intense heat and high alkalinity flourished. Kim |
|
| You guys are really awesome! Thanks so much for the info. I appreciate your detailed answer Roseseek. The more I research the more I realize HOW MUCH I don't know about roses! Actually I grew up in Encino when there still were orange groves and before Crespi high school was built. Boy, am I showing my age! I am currently growing some OGR Teas, own root, and hope to eventually experiment with other roses classes so the heads up on the various issues with some of them will help a lot. Thanks to all for their generous input..... Lee |
|
- Posted by kstrong 10 So Cal (kathystrong@gmail.com) on Thu, Feb 9, 12 at 21:17
| Well, I can personally vouch for Dr. Ekuan's roses. His garden is about 3 blocks from me, and I walk by it on my daily walk. He has budded most of his roses on Odorata rootstock, but he also has more recently been using Fortuniana and Pink Clouds as his rootstock of choice. And his roses are HUGE!!! And extremely healthy. Most are two or three times the size of roses you would see in a normal garden. And I also agree that budded roses are generally better than non-budded. I just have not seen that many roses that grow better as own roots than as grafted plants, and that is a comparison I have personally made for many varieties -- but mostly just modern roses. OGR's are a totally different story. I have also noticed over the time of these debates on this forum and elsewhere, that those that advocate for "own roots" seem to have their own agendas. Either they are promoting the roses of a particular favored "own root" vendor (or they are such a vendor), or they live in a place where the grafts, if not sufficiently below ground, would freeze. My opinion counts ONLY where the buds can be safely put at or above the ground level. I am of the opinion that the grafts should be above ground for best performance -- or maybe at ground level -- but that burying them significantly reduces the rose's vigor. Consequently, if you have to "bury" the graft to get the rose through winter, then I can certainly understand why "own root" would be a significant advantage. Buried grafts are not the best way to grow a grafted rose. I do occasionally still buy "own root" roses, but most often I have the desire -- if I like the rose -- to eventually graft it up myself to a suitable rootstock. For me, in my climate, grafted is the way to go. Kathy |
|
| well hey, Kathy, I have already added my ha'pennorth of thought on this subject on the antique forum but just must agree with your final statement. The level of the graft union, vis a vis planting, has also been a contentious issue with the 'bury the graft union' advice just edging into the lead. Having myself been offered so much contradictory advice, I decided to follow recommended planting instructions for EVERY OTHER PLANT - plant at the same depth as the previous nursery or pot level. I have never had problems with suckering or graft failure, nor do my roses have great ugly knotty graft unions - in short, it works for me. |
|
| Campanula, which method works for you? |
|
| Michael, if I am planting bare roots (which is nearly always), then I try to assess what depth the original plant was...and obviously, the bud union is always above ground level. The only reason I do this is because I have been baffled by conflicting advice about planting depths. I decided to ignore the graft and treat the rose as I would every other plant, whether herbaceous perennial or woody shrub, and maintain the planting levels as near as possible to what the plant has been accustomed to. True, I only have 70 or so roses, and my zone is fairly kindly but I like to think that roses are tough and adaptable and would probably cope with being buried or left high and dry - I think the worst thing would be to suddenly make radical changes over a short period of time ....but this is the case with many living things - we all like the comfort of the familiar. Michael, I would like to thank you for clarifying an issue which has long perplexed me - my inability to have any success moving established roses around. No matter how much rootball I keep or how huge a trench I dig, my roses invariably have one long taproot with a couple of minuscule feeder roots. Unless I excavate to Australia, most of the root system remains in the ground and the transplanted rose is often a miserable failure which takes YEARS to recover (and sometimes it doesn't). Now I know that R.Laxa is the stock most likely to do this, I now look to grow the roses on their own roots or order from sources such as Bierkreek which stick with R.canina. |
|
| On another thread we were discussing planting depths. I think it was generally agreed that planting the graft above soil level was the most beneficial for the plant. I do live in a cold zone and I have always planted my roses so that the graft sits exposed right on the top of the soil and have not had problems with the root stock taking over or suckering at all. And they have wintered very well sometimes with but more often without protection. I do think that most modern roses, HTs in particular, do better grafted. Both of my Austins are also grafted and are huge, healthy and winter like champs. Most of my own root roses are my own seedlings and I can attest to the fact that they are indeed slower to grow but that could just be because they are seedlings. But once they do establish and mature they do just as well as my grafted roses. So like I said earlier, experiment and see what works best for you, your soil and climate conditions and the roses you've chosen. |
|
| Just to make this as confusing as possible, I will speak up for those of us growing grafted roses on the east coast of the US. Most of us plant our HT's well below the soil line and add mulch each year. The graft union on my older HT's are a foot below grade. When I dig them up (quite a chore!), there "appear" to be active roots both above and below the graft. I guess they are now own root HT's. Bottom line is they are really vigorous and hardy. Many would be 8' or more if I didn't prune mid season. |
|
- Posted by kittymoonbeam Sunset 23 So CA (My Page) on Fri, Feb 10, 12 at 22:04
| Thinking about this again gave me a good excuse to buy another rose. I have a Chrysler Imperial own root that I grew from a band and after 3 years it has 2 big canes and 2 small canes. I just bought a good quality budded one growing in a pot from a good nursery today. It has four trimmed down good size canes full of growth and rarin' to go. Let's see who does best in these next few years because can't have too many Chryslers right? |
|
| Lol, I like your thinking, Kitty! |
|
| Kitty: On Chrysler my experience between own root and grafted is that grafted wins hands down. In fact the own root Chrysler (which was Virus indexed to boot) was in the most delicious hand mixed potting soil I could blend. The grafted was in the ground in amended Alkaline clay AND had RMV. Still after 3+ years the own root rose managed only 3 wimpy canes. Perhaps in a few more years the own root may have caught up with the grafted, but space being at a premium I ended up gifting it away....My problem is finding roses grafted on Dr. Huey. So many specialty roses (exhibition HT's etc) are now only available on Multiflora (a no go in my alkaline soil)or Fortuniana. Does anyone know of anyone who buds on Dr. Huey except the major rose companies who have their own varieties to push? I've never heard of them.....Maryl |
|
- Posted by rosesinny 7a (nefw2@yahoo.com) on Sun, Feb 12, 12 at 10:37
| Well FWIW, when I moved into my current house about 12 - 15 years ago, I thought it would be very cold in the winter and I'd have to get extra hardy plants. I also worried about ending up with a yard full of Dr Huey should I get some deaths over the winter. So I only planted own-root plants, except for 2 HTs. One died last year after a bad freeze and the other one is hanging on but now it's suckering and I'll probably SP it in the spring. All the dozens of other roses are own-root and quite fine. Mons Tillier for example, is about 10 feet tall, or was until I cut it back a few weeks ago, and I've had to remove a few plants because they just got a lot bigger than they were supposed to get. So are grafted plants somehow better? Well, insofar as they allow you to attenuate the growth of the plant, maybe. In other words, you may want a less vigorous plant for a smaller space, or a more vigorous plant for a larger space. If you adjust your rootstock, you may be able to match your plant to your local conditions. And of course, you have to have have soil where that rootstock happens to thrive. Since most rose nurseries are out west and I'm here on the east coast, I'm not so sure that their rootstock would be the best for my soil. Moreover, I'm not really in need of more vigorous growth on any of my plants, and for many, I'm not sure why they wouldn't be just as vigorous on their own roots. |
|
| Thanks everybody --- for your kindness in taking the time to post your experiences. Lee |
|
| I have noticed in my Chicagoland garden that Multiflora seems to be the best rootstock for any of my roses. Even better than their own roots. |
|
| Whenever we discuss the merits of grafting I like to post my picture of Rose de Rescht which was planted from a tiny band provided by Heirloom. Less than 4 months following direct planting, it had almost reached mature size. I think it is safe to say there is no hard and fast rule which applies to all of us.
|
|
| harryshoe, it's a lot safer to say there are "few" hard and fast rules applying to everyone. There ARE a few which DO apply universally. Try growing Fantan and Grey Pearl own root and keeping them alive. Gold fish in small bowls live longer. I have two Grey Pearl budded plants which are going on six years old. They're not great plants, but they flower and they are growing. Growing multiflora types, whether as root stocks or varieties on alkaline soils is guaranteed to result in chronically chlorotic plants unless regular steps to alleviate the problem are taken. The intensity of them depends upon the precise cultivar and the severity of the alkalinity, but they WILL be necessary in those conditions. There are a few universals which are as doomed to failure as trying to grow fresh water fish in salt water. Kim |
|
- Posted by lookin4you2xist 9b (breaks4rainbows@yahoo.com) on Wed, Feb 15, 12 at 8:57
| I just wanted to chime in - a little off base. Pink Clouds is starting to get some size to it in Tampa Bay.(Thank You Kim)I can not wait to actually try grafting to it. (Mothers Day is my rule of thumb here. But, temps have been running high this year.) In my situation, nine times out of ten, I'll take Fortuniana. Some people do not like the growing habit of its root system. For me, it is well worth it. Reclaimed Water from the City of St. Pete is a godsend. It may not be 100 percent perfect. But, I will take it over drought any day. I have tried own root on most / almost all of my roses. Unless it is part China, or in some cases a Wichuriana Rambler it tends to live 3-4 years and the plant will die. Every mini rose I grow (in Fl) is on Fortuniana - with the exception of a couple mini climbers. (It isn't pretty to have minis on Fortuniana IMO. But, it's the price I pay)Own root is fine for PA in my case I can overwinter in a large greenhouse. It has been easier for me to have 2 gardens. One in PA - USDA Hardiness Zone 5a. One in Florida zone 9b.(no idea on what the "sunset zone" is on either property.) Both areas are totally different animals. Stone Quarry or Sand, take your pick. I find myself "adapting" to 10 acres of Quarry. I may only see some of my roses 2-3 times a year. Luckily, part of my family has owned a garden center in the past and can take care of my plants for the most part. Less zone pushing !!! Multiflora is a goner here. Huey is very hit or miss. I have a couple own root Noisettes that have actually held on and thrived. Blush Noisette own root has been in the same spot for over 10 years. I have read in this area of Florida that 3-5 years is the usual max. The same rule applies ... IF I want a rose to flower here,and possibly be happy, nothing has beaten Fortuniana so far. I have never tried, to my knowledge, Odorata. For me in regard to the Austins, I have grown most of them on the rootstock they use. Very hit or miss. Fortuniana has its cons. I can get very large plants that really only flower at the tops of the plants. I JUST picked up Sally Holmes on Fortuniana - truth is I'm almost afraid to plant it. I do not have a lot of room left for a monster plant.Bonica is better grafted for me as is @ Harry - Rose de Rescht will grow here (Fl. garden) own root but with the amount of flowers I get on it grafted is the way to go. Amazing to see how much size you got on yours from a band. My own root isn't 1/4 that size in Fl. I've been growing it for years. Mermaid is a monster here own root. Even using giant "water wise" containers doesn't compare to grafting here. I have Blackspot problems.(no spray) No rust ...except on Hollyhocks and no powdery mildew. This garden has been mulched for at least 25 years. So, my soil is not 100 percent sand and is full of earthworms. My info is just FWIW I would listen to Kim and others in your area. Just as I try to find what works for growers in Florida. |
|
- Posted by sandandsun (My Page) on Wed, Feb 15, 12 at 21:55
| Andrew, I'm not in your area, but the author of a Tampa based blog claims very different results. Link below. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Florida Rose Growing Myths
Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum. If you are a member, please log in. If you aren't yet a member, join now!
Return to the Roses Forum
Instructions
- You must be a registered member and logged in to post messages on our forums.
- Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review the contents and make changes.
- After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
- It is illegal to post copyrighted material without the owner's consent.
- HTML codes are allowed in the message field only.
- No advertising is allowed in any of the forums.
- If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
- If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.