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Cane die back problem, what to do?

Posted by tropical_thought San Francisco (My Page) on
Mon, Mar 19, 12 at 21:23

Sterling Silver was doing great. It had three canes to start with as a bareroot, but one of them never got going. I noticed it was dead about two weeks ago, and cut it out. But, now cane number two looks half dead but half alive. Half of the cane in a vertical fashion is dead on one side but green on the other, but clearly dying. So, I guess I have to cut it out. Cane three has a flower, but I see some brownish just a bit on it now. Will it make any more canes if they all die? I am nervous of about cutting out cane two leaving it only with one cane. I know bareroots are tricky they start out nice, but then they can hit the problem zone later one. The first year is the hardest year.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

I am not sure why those canes were initially alive then died. I suspect many things like lack of water, cold weather, insect damage and others like disease that came with happened since you planted.

Considering cold damage, do you protect the graft by dirt or mulch when you plant it in early spring? If so, as long as the graft part (bud union) is healthy, you get new shoots.

Sorry, only advice I(zone 5) can give you is that you have to take care of a bud union.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

I hate to say this but -- It's 'Sterling Silver.'

There's a reason why it has an abysmal ARS rating.

It was a breakthrough rose in its day, but it was always a weakling.

In the late '60's, I bought a house with a rose garden. I called on my grandmother, a noted rose gardener, who came over and gave me pointers. I pointed out one rose that mystified me. A pitiful little thing perhaps 10 inches tall, which periodically produced one beautifully-formed, oddly gray bloom, and asked her -- what in the WORLD?

She waved her hand dismissively, and said: "Oh, that's 'Sterling Silver.' It's never going to grow any better than that."

She was right. (She usually was.)
In my experience, most of that color class are "iffy" growers, but the original -- 'Sterling Silver' -- is the weakest of the bunch. It was miraculous in its day, but its day is done. (And yes, I am sure it's someone's fave, but the truth is, it's not a strong rose.)

Jeri


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Ironically it can't be cold. I think it could be the other way around. I have it in a pot. I was taking the pot inside at night. I think the house may be too warm for it at night. It was not insects for sure. It was only placed outside in on sunny days. It can't be cold or insects. I wanted it to be a small rose so I could move it around. We get summer fog. I have bigger bushes that are outdoors and vigorous also. Also consider that San Francisco is zone 10. It was never below 40 the whole time I had it. Even when I forgot and left it outside it was never below 40. If I could just figure out what is causing the cane die back and save and treat the final cane before it dies. Or else I may have to get a replacement. I am working this as an experiment to see if can make it live. I had seen one at the nursery in a pot, but they wanted a lot of money for it and it was in terrible shape filled with disease from head to toe. Considering that they should have been willing to make me a deal. That nursery was rude and so I was already buying one rose there, and I did not want to buy another. The guy acted like I was really annoying him by interrupting what he was doing to try and buy a rose. But, SS is hard to find at right now, due to all of this negative press.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

First, no roses like to be taken inside at night, and there is no reason to in zone 10. The inside of your house is too dry, lacks natural light, and any rose would resent that. In SF, I can't think of any reason why you couldn't find the pot a place to be outside and leave it there, preferably where it would get a chance at sun if there was any. Fog will not kill it, but constantly moving it around might. You say "I wanted it to be a small rose so I could move it around". It is not a small rose. That might be part of the problem. How big is the pot? SS is a HT, and gets fairly large - it should be in a large pot, or in the ground.

Having said that, I agree that SS is a very difficult, weak rose. I have one in the sun in a large pot, and I have had the same "one side of the cane is dying" sort of die back on mine. The fact that it is a weak grower is another reason it is really not a suitable rose to try and force to be smaller than it wants, or to move constantly. What is the purpose? Perhaps someone could recommend a rose that is naturally small and vigorous that would work better for you.

Jackie


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

OH! If you want a rose to keep in a pot small enough to move around a lot, you really want to look at something like a Micro-Miniature.

Roses such as 'Si' (pronounced, "see"), and 'Hi,' and 'Willie Winkie,' and 'Tom Thumb' (there are a whole rainbow of others) really DO remain small, and can be grown in, say, a 12-inch container. I've read, recently, that a whole line of them will be marketed, soon, through Wal-Mart, of all places!

These are ideal roses for people with limited space, or for those who want to move color from one area to another. I grow several, and want more of them.

But a regular-sized rose -- a Hybrid Tea, or a Floribunda, or a Shrub Rose, or even most Miniatures -- these need to be either in the ground, or at the very least in a very very large container.

Heck, I've seen the Miniature, 'Jean Kenneally', growing a vigorous 7 feet tall! The blooms are "miniature," but the plant definitely is NOT.

And Jackie is WAY correct. Roses were never intended as indoor plants. Temperatures below 40 at night will just slow them down, and give them a brief winter rest. It's like trying to keep a horse in the living room. It don't work out, long-term.

Jeri


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Jerijen,
Your grandmother sounds like an outstanding person.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

The reason was during periods of heavy fog, I could move it into the house. But, most of time it is supposed to be an outdoor rose. I had read a lot about roses in pots. I think the cane die back could be something else. It does not need a bigger pot yet, the roots are small at this point. The ones in the nursery were very small. It might grow bigger, I don't know, I could always put it in the ground later on. It is kind of nice to have it in the house at night as a decoration, but I don't know if this is what is causing the cane die back. It does go outside daily unless there is like total rain. We don't have much winter fog. It might be a problem inherent to sterling silver, the cane die back, if someone else has that going on also. Miniatures are fairly tricky to grow. I had few many years ago, but they got black spot.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

??? "Heavy fog" is a GOOD thing for roses, not something to protect them from by "bringing them into the house." In San Francisco, roses should NEVER (ever, ever) be brought into the house, unless maybe there is a stray hurricane or tornado or tsunami approaching. But not for our regular California weather. Indoors is way too arid for roses to be happy, and not enough sun, yada, yada. You do not want to be bringing them into the house including in times of "total rain."

Sterling Silver is a weak rose to begin with. Yours is probably dying both because it is inherently weak and because you are mistreating it by "bringing it into the house."

A couple of things you can do.
Most important -- put it outdoors in a spot with at least 6 hours daily sun and leave it there.
Second, let the pot dry out once in a while -- roots get rot in pots quite easily if kept too constantly soggy.
And get rid of any saucer you may have under the pot -- if this rose comes in the house, it sounds as if there may be a saucer somewhere nearby. Saucers are bad ideas always for roses.
And finally, there is a product that will improve the health of the soil, which you could try and see if that helps, called Actinovate, which is available online.

Here is a link that might be useful: Actinovate


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

I am leaving it out at night now to see if this helps the cane die back. Wet leaves caused by fog or rain causes the germination of the spores that cause fungal disease. Even if the leaves are not wet they can get fungal anyway, but wet leaves create favorable conditions of germination growth of fungal. I don't see any harm in moving it in the house during fog or rain.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Tropical, rain will wash the fungal spores OFF. Roses LOVE rain.

Please listen to the excellent advice kstrong has offered, he/she is right on target.

And don't judge all roses by 'Sterling Silver.'
A very famous rose breeder told me once that he/she wished devoutly that EVERYONE would stop selling 'Sterling Silver,' as it was such a dreadful rose. Of course "they" still sell it, but y'all don't have to fall into that trap.

Transplant your rose into a larger container (or into the ground) and put it outside and leave it there, and let it take its chances. It ain't a puppy. It was BRED to live outside.

Jeri


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Nobody knows what to do about cane die back? (Other then cut out all the deadwood) I did a lot of web searching on the topic. If cane number 3 decides to go bad, the rose is doomed. I hope it decides to make a new cane soon. I wish there was a remedy for cane die back. I mean some cane die is natural, but in this case, I think not.


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I just trimmed the cane

I trimmed cane number two half way down and I can see green, so maybe a new shoot will come from cane 2. Maybe it can live as a very small one cane rose? I wonder if it possible to have a one cane rose live? It could make lots of shoots with flowers from the one cane. I just have never seen such a thing.


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I did find a few bugs on it

I just carefully studied the leaves of the removed cane, I do see a few insect pests, so maybe the cane die back is coming from the insects after all.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

No. The die back is not insect-caused.

Jeri


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Growing roses in containers brings it's own set of issues. As K. Strong mentioned, there should never be a saucer under the container. In fact, I think it is wise to lift the pot to ensure good drainage.

You also have to have the right potting soil for your climate and the rose. Some roses, which are not inherently weak roses, are more tolerant of many kinds of soil mixes, other roses are quite picky. As usual, it depends on the rose.

Sterling Silver was introduced at a time when roses were budded. The added vigor of the root stock is probably what kept it in commerce, but now that more roses are being sold own root, those roses that truly need that added vigor will probably disappear from the market.

Also, some roses just don't do well in containers. I have a moss rose named for a friend of mine and I had it in a container for a few years. I hated the plant ! I finally gave it a place in the ground and that rose has truly surprised me. The plant is solid and the blooms beautiful, but it was a dawg in a container.

There is a chance that since your plant is own root, as spring progresses, it will throw out some new growth, but I doubt if it will ever be a strong grower, no matter how much TLC you give it. But it IS a beauty. It's too bad it's not a strong plant.

Smiles,
Lyn


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there may be some good news for roses in pots

Having read this link, SS is in fact, one of the suggested roses to have in a pot. I should post this for the poster who is asking about this right near this post, but I had to double post. I hope they see this. Anyway, bareroot roses are not recommended for pots. But was either go bareroot or buy the ultra fungal SS and see if I could save it from that nursery. I could plant it right now, but it may already be stressed out. I will have to remove some other plant to make room. I may plant it today, I am still thinking it over. I hate to remove another plant that is doing well, to make room for one that may be dying. I don't use the saucer. In fact, I elevate the pot with small flat stones to allow drainage.

Here is a link that might be useful: roses in pots


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

tropical thought - did you follow the recommendation in the site this link goes to that HTs should be in pots at least 14 inches high and 17 inches across? Just wondering - what size, exactly, is the pot your SS is in?

Jackie


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

It is a small pot. I put it in a bigger one, but it was too heavy to lift. I was moving it around to get more sun. I only have half sun on one side, if I move it can get full sun. I got a medium pot, but now I am afraid to transplant into the medium pot because of this cane die back. But, when I transplanted it the roots were very small. In fact, the small pot is barely even being filled up due to the small roots. It will take time to make more roots.

I did some trimming of the other roses, and I did notice some cane die back on them in which half of the cane looks dead and the other half looks alive, so maybe it is a fungal disease? Maybe it is caused by the weather? The other roses have so many canes that it is not critical to remove a those brown canes. It is only because SS was only started in January from bareroot. It is so small and has not had time to get bigger.

So, I have the medium pot on stand by. I want it in the biggest pot in the end if I can figure out how to put it on a dolly so I can roll it around. Or I may put it in the ground instead.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

I have Sterling silver and it does not like pruning. I have had the canes die back because of pruning. Give this rose the biggest pot you can and put it in the most sun you can give and then spray for diseases to keep the leaves it has left healthy. Maybe you could put the pot out in the garden where there is good sun most of the day even if it has to crowd in with something else until it resumes growth. I would just concentrate on the last remaining cane. Eventually it will restart the bush but it will be a few years. Hopefully there are not root issues that you can't see causing the problem. I would never bring a rose into the house. Don't give up. What you have to do is get the plant into a good state of health so you don't lose the last cane. The best sterlings I ever saw were left alone and only had dead wood removed. It's a pretty plant but you have to be on top of keeping the leaves healthy.

If it were my plant, I would try to get it to resume healthy growth and then plant it in the ground a bit lower than it was in the pot so hopefully more roots will form off the remaining cane and you will get rooted shoots coming from below in later years.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Kittymoonbeam Thank you, that is great advice, but if the new shoots come from below that would be suckers because this SS is grafted. I wanted an own roots, but there is only one nursery that would do it and they went out of business. I did write to them like a year ago and ask, but they never replied. Do you mean bury it up to the graft? Would that not rot out the root stock. It could be Huey root stock, I don't know.

I can't find any own roots, but I do have one. It just started growing from no where, and it could part of a root of another rose, that I dug up before. I have no idea. I wonder if roses can grow from seeds that are composted? It is too small to have a flower yet. Can hips be planted and make own roots? I looked up the directions but it is very complex to make an own roots. I could hypothetically create a sterling silver clone with this one. But, it would be weak I was told so its not a good idea. Of course, I like the idea of small weak rose for a pot. But, I would have to cut this rose, yet again, and I don't want to cut it again.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Our Sterling has been in the ground for 4-5 years....I am still waiting on that first flower.

The only reason it has not met the green recycling bin is because we have the space. I did dig it up and move it this year and I think we have teeny tiny buds starting!

I am going to guess your pot is smaller than 15 gallons-the smallest we were told is okay for a rose. That might also be part of the issue, it might also be why the one that was your inspiration was in such poor condition. Might be better to concentrate on what will work with the vision you have of how you want to live with a potted rose.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

There are several nurseries on HelpMeFind that list SS in their inventory. Many of them sell own root roses. Click the BUY FROM on the rose page linked below.

Smiles,
Lyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Stirling Silver on HMF


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

That is strange that it won't bloom. Mine already had a flower. I had sterling silver before at my old house in the ground and it did great, but I did not take it with me when we moved. I know sterling silver can be good if you climate if not hot. It stops blooming when it is hot, that is what I have been told. It never get hot in San Francisco, and it used to bloom a lot. It was great rose.

Re help me find. I did use that to find that nursery that had the really diseased ones. But, I was not able to find any that had it via mail order or own roots, expect for that one that went out of business. I wrote to a few others, none of them have it any more. It is actually going extinct. At his point due to bad press and stainless silver. Stainless steal is not actually related to sterling silver. I looked at the parentage. I did use that to find some other roses, but if they are not near me, they can only ship bareroots. There is a law you can't ship soil into CA. Going bareroots really stresses out the plant. Regan Nursery in Fremont said they don't have it this year because they have stainless steal.

Jerry Baker used to say, not to put the plant in a pot too big for it's roots. Naturally I used to think that he was wrong, and I would save time and money by buying a bigger pots so I would not have to transplant. It is not not using 1/4 of the small pot that it is in. But, maybe he was right? All nurseries get bareroots and what they don't sell they put in pots and sell those. Clearly some of the roses make to the pot from bareroots, if one is lucky. But, sometimes they don't.


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I was wrong about Regan

I got so mad thinking about Regan, they told me they were only having stainless steal this year, that I called them to berate them. I found out they have 5 sterling silvers in pots right now. So, I wanted to take back my statement. I could have a better chance with those. They made it to the pot stage from the bareroot. I will go today to get a replacement in case this one, which is clearly on it's way out dies.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Stainless Steel and Sterling Silver do horribly in my area. They smell good when they do bloom. I prefer Blue Girl for Florida (grafted) But, the only reason I still grow Blue Girl is it was one of the first roses I tried. I love the color of them. Botrytis and cane die back were the biggest problem with them in my garden.

Cane die back, in my case, is usually started by ants or other insects. I use glue to try to seal my cuts. But, it doesn't always help. I would suggest you try to air layer a cutting if you want to try to keep it. It isn't really pretty but, I would try that, and then get it grafted if you want to keep it.

Kippy, I had never heard 15 gallons was the smallest container you wanted to keep a rose in. If that was the way I kept things, I would have no room.

Tropical, people bury roses all the way to the graft and over in colder climates. Sometimes it will cause a rose to tip root. A lot of OGR will grow that way. I would suggest you look into the rose hybridizers forum for questions about growing roses from seed. You'll learn a lot. I'm sure you'll have some questions. But, they are a really nice bunch.
Regards,
Andrew Grover


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Andrew, I think the 15g was the pot size recommended for long term health of the plants, watering, care etc. There was a gasp through the room when that size was suggested. I am sure minis need way less space. And probably the more experienced and more time you can spend caring for them would make a difference as well.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Kippy.......

I've grown a lot roses in containers when I lived in a more favorable climate. I had a few HTs and florubundas, but most of them were minis and minifloras. In the Socal container garden, my favorite container size was a 7 gal squat pot for the minis and minifloras. They didn't require any more work than the larger roses in larger pots.

However, the definition of mini roses is determined by the size of the bloom and not the size of the plant, so some of them had to go into the larger pots, too.

My climate in my Norcal garden doesn't lend itself to growing plants in containers. I do have a few, but they take more work up here.

Smiles,
Lyn


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The rose is in the ground

I planted SS today. When I looked at the roots, I determined it does not like the pot. The roots were a bit bigger, but the tap roots were not a healthy color. I don't know if this will solve the cane die back problem, but overall I know I made the right decision


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more cane die back need help

SS is doing better, but another hybrid tea lost two canes to die back. The problem looks the same. The canes turn brown at the base and then fall off. Is this caused by a fungus so I can treat it? Or is it a virus or a more serious problem? Can the canes be painted with something to keep away the fungus?


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Your pots were draining normally so it wasnt root rot or something?

There are other funguses that just happen in normal conditions that might cause it. I had a bloodgood japanese maple tree In which a branch died. It Wilted and died and dried up as though it had broken off. I assumed it was snapped by a cat or something and pruned it away. Then later that year another branch died.
The next year half the crown began to wilt. I realized something was wrong with it.
I decided it had verticilium wilt and took it out. To be sure i cut the trunk and found olive stains in the wood.

Verticilium wilt affects so many trees and plants (roses and tomatos etc) and it is contageous.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

It may just be your spring weather. We always get a lot of dieback in our cool, wet springs here. The systemic Bayer fungicide is the best, imho. I don't usually spray non-organics, but I do on some roses in spring.

Little bands and bareroots are the most vulnerable, imho, because they haven't put down their roots yet. In any case, just use a good rose fungicide until the weather gets drier or warms up some in spring. I can't promise that'll work (and cultivar does matter, lol), but I do have to do it often enough here :)


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

I have used Bayer and banner maxx and I bought a few others and tried them. Maybe they are helping somewhat so all the canes don't die? I have a climber and a shrub rose that are not affected and all the roses are in the ground at this time. I may have to discard the two hybrid teas. This is very sad. Verticilium wilt yes, it could be because I use a lot of compost, but I don't grow tomatoes or anything like that, and nothing else is affected at this point other then the two hybrid teas.


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found a possible idea

There is a thread on verticillium wilt on roses here in which one of the posters had what I have and posts a photo. It is not verticillium wilt. The leaves are not yellow and the stems are not wilted. The rose looks ok, but the canes just die. It is cane die back unknown cause, but some of the canes take on a mottled appearance as well as turning black and dying. I still don't what it is but I am getting closer to the cause and hopefully a solution.

Here is a link that might be useful: verticillium wilt on roses


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It's rose canker

I did more research and found out it's called rose canker, so I am posting this in case someone wants help with cane die back.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Twenty two of my roses had cane canker (it was popping all over Boise at the time) last year. After I removed the affected canes, the roses did fine the rest of the season. They were smaller, though, and had some growing to do. This year I had absolutely no canker. I had vowed to prune later in the season and very lightly. Also, I was rigorous about using an alcohol dip after each bush was pruned. These simple steps seemed to work for me, and you might try them next year. Good luck. Diane


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Rose canker is typically the same fungus in Botrytis. Unfortunately, Botrytis is not something that's on the list for Banner Maxx or Bayer. Your choices are Daconil or Mancozeb/Pentathlon. Canker can be a real bear in cooler temps. It can get into the tips of freshly pruned canes and the fungus can easily spread through your pruners, as well. Once in the cane, there's little you can do except to prune down below it with some sterilized pruners. It's important to have the fungus knocked down with some spray, though, or it will introduce itself.

During seasons with bad canker, I carried around a spray bottle of Daconil and sprayed the cane tips after I pruned them. If you're using a good spray program every year - which includes an occasional knock-down with Mancozeb/Pentathlon, the chances of infection go way down.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Thanks, I know you mean well, but it's Brown Canker Cryptosporella umbrina is the correct name and there is no treatment. The roses I removed were down to one cane only and I did not want the other roses, that don't have it yet to get it, so it seemed like there was no other way but to discard those two. I did use Daconil and banner maxx as well as three other types of fungicide and it did not help. I used it weekly, I rotated them. The Botrytis I had earlier did clear up, but they are not the same thing google Cryptosporella umbrina. It's worse because it affects the canes low down near the base, but Botrytis starts high up so you can trim it off without murdering the entire cane.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Notice I said "typically" above. I stand by what I said, though - rose canker can be caused by a number of different fungi. It's also as common as the dirt for anyone that's grown roses for awhile. I'm just not as certain about what you specifically have as you now seem to be after a lengthy thread. Also, what I said is true - Daconil and Mancozeb/Pentathlon will kill the fungus that causes canker - so will a sulfur spray - but NOT Banner Maxx or Bayer. The problem is that once it's in the canes, it's too late.

Anyway, you need to cut us some slack if you're asking for help with a diagnosis without any pics, seeing the plants, etc., etc. Good luck in cleaning up your roses. ;-)


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

Rose canker only presences itself in the canes. I think I got it from one of the roses that I brought in, but I don't know which one. But, I wish I had known to give up and destroy them earlier. I am thinking of buying a sulfur spray now, just on general principles, but I don't know which one to buy. I want to hit my other roses with the sulfur spray very soon. But, I worried it will be high nitrogen and nitrogen is bad when you have canker someone else wrote. But, if it's too late when you see it, what do you do? Spray all the time everything just in case you get canker? I won't get any new roses, I heard it lasts in the soil for years.


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RE: Cane die back problem, what to do?

If there's nothing left of the infected roses & you destroyed the others, what's left to spray?

I think you should consult with the expert that made the very specific Cryptosporella diagnosis for you.


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