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| Is there an "organic" way to fight blackspot? Meaning, is there a way to fight this without chemical spraying? I heard somewhere that a mixture of water and low-fat milk will work? Although I don't know the ratio etc.
If I only had a few roses I wouldn't worry so much about the chemicals, but with as many as I have, I feel like my yard has become a toxic waste dump. :-) At any rate, any help would be appreciated. Rett |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by karl_bapst_rosenut 5a NWIN Rensselaer/V (rosenut7673@earthlink.net) on Fri, Mar 30, 07 at 23:13
| If there were a good effective organic way to prevent and stop blackspot, we'd all be using it. None of us likes to use toxic chemicals in our yards. That's why many of us don't spray insecticides, depend on natural preditors, and accept insect damage on our roses. Of the pesticides, most fungicides approved for use in the U.S. are the least toxic to mammals. |
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| Sulfur sprays are often regarded as acceptable fungicide applications even in "organic" regimens, since sulfur is the active ingredient and also an essential nutrient (one usually acquired through eating proteins). One has to be careful when applying sulfur sprays since if done when too hot the rose leaves can be damaged. You also have to monitor the soil since heavy, repeated applications of sulfur sprays necessarily acidify the bed's soil. Usually that's easily corrected by applying ground limestone, but it's something you need to bear in mind. There are also more effective ways of controlling blackspot, but sulfur does work to some degree. |
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| If you want to grow your roses without chemical sprays, then the best way to fight black spot is to carefully select those roses that have good disease resistance. You can get that information by reading what the gardeners in your area say on the rose forums. Another way is to select roses from a certain breeder who tends to bred roses that are more disease resistance than others. |
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- Posted by silver_wlf 6 Ontario (My Page) on Sat, Mar 31, 07 at 9:12
| I had NO luck with sulfur last year. I couldn't find anything that had anything other than sulfur - so I tried - and some of my plants had no leaves. (Double Delight, unknown HT, etc.) Others had a little but still had leaves. (Iceberg, Lilli Marleen, unknown floribunda) I agree with Lynnette, if you're going to go organic, choose the roses carefully so that you don't really have to worry about BS as much. |
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| I did use a combo of the milk spray (10-20% millk to 80-90% water) and cornmeal application to the ground area to treat and cure my Coral Dawn and Radox Bouquet of its nasty blackspot. Seriously. What can I say, it worked in my garden. But you have to be diligent--meaning you spray every few days (about twice a week) and pull off every blackspotted leaf you see-also clean up the ground around your plants. It may not work for you, but it did for me--and everyone knows what a blackspot magnet Coral Dawn is. |
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 NY (My Page) on Sat, Mar 31, 07 at 9:40
| A shovel works quite well. Start with the worst offenders and replace them with roses the locals agree don't require spraying. After a year or two, you'll start seeing a difference. Admittedly this is much easier to do from the beginning, before you get a large collection of disease prone roses. However, it is reliable. |
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| roseluvr-- Did you apply the milk/cornmeal mixture directly to the plant, or did you say on the ground around the plant? Thank you so much everybody for your comments. I realize planting disease resistant plants is the best source but in Missouri, all I'd have in my yard is Knock Out. :-) |
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| Many think there is, BUT, I fear, there is not. You need something that will effectively kill the BS spore, and the only thing I know of is either Mancozeb, or Manzate. Of course, if you had all disease resistent roses, you might escape into "No Blackspot Land," for awhile. |
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| rett, not true that you would only have Knock Out if all you had were disease resistant roses. Go back to the main "Roses Forum" and "Antique Roses" page and do a search on "disease resistant" or "no spray". There are plenty of folks in very humid areas who grow a wide variety of disease resistant roses. Check out this thread started by Olga in Maryland: Question to East Coasters (no spray). Some people have tried modified versions of the Cornell Formula for blackspot. It seems to be more effective in fighting powdery mildew than blackspot. |
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| 1. Cornmeal does nothing against blackspot and the longer you believe that it does the worse will be the awakening. (Was there, done that 4 years ago) 2. Milk and Baking soda worked against mildew here but mildew is not a serious problem in my climate, affects only a few roses for a very short period of time. To make it easier on me I use wilt-pruf substitutes to treat this issue in the recent year. In case you live in the eastern part of US (I assume it from your reference to humidity) check on Olga's spots diligently. She is moving to a no-spray garden and tries several roses every year. She found that a large number of roses are not disease resistant in her climate that are disease free in hot-humid southern states on the east but those gardeners garden inland not close to the seaboard. My disease problems (coastal zone 8) are a lot similar to Olga's though a few roses are disease free for me that got some spots in her area in MD. Having said all that, you can find roses that are or will become clean or relatively disease resistant. I have more and more every year, both in the OGR and the modern rose category. I have approximately 250 roses but not one single Knockout. I spray most bi-weekly but every year I find that I do have more and more roses that do not require spraying. Of the modern roses I try several from the new Kordes series that are tested for blackspot resistance in Europe. We will see how they stand up to the permanent humidity in my local microclimate. In any case they look more interesting than the Knockouts and some have good fragrance that is more and more important to me. As Mad Gallica said wisely: there is not much difference between a lot o good roses and Knockout except for the huge advertising budget set aside promoting Knockouts that by the was are not that pristine clean here in some plantings I saw. |
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- Posted by cajunrosegal 9a Coastal Louisiana (My Page) on Sat, Mar 31, 07 at 12:55
| I found a recipe from Cornell University that I am going to try,evidently they tested it..(hopefully!) 1 gallon water Wish me luck or the shovel will make its rounds! I started looking for disease resistant roses since I planted Kordes not so Perfecta. |
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| Well, I have bought roses that have been advertised as disease resistant and I still get blackspot (except on Knock Out.) Some plants are much worse than others, obviously. No, I'm not on the east coast, I'm in Missouri. The humidity here runs so high it feels like breathing water for most of July and August. In fact, I had a long conversation with the cashier at the grocery store who told me she gave up on roses because--in her words-- "It's Missouri. Black spot is king." The only reason I even bought the two KO bushes is because I needed a replacement quickly and they were the only roses at the nursery yard, that weren't covered with beetles and didn't have blackspot. (This was late in the season.) I planted them and they stayed "clean." But they aren't my favorite by any stretch. I can keep the BS under control by using the sprays, I was just hoping there was a more organic way that I hadn't heard of yet. Wishful thinking! I will check out Olga's thread. Thank you so much, guys! What a helpful group of people! Rett |
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| Forget it Angie-in your area the roses will laugh at that and your control problem will be that much advanced.That formula is only in areas with marginal disease problems. In the south you either grow disease resistant cultivers,spray or B.S. everyone that your lollipop sticks are a thing of beauty. |
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| rett, I believe Olga lives in the Baltimore-Washington corridor in Maryland. That's another place notorious for warm-hot, HUMID summers. It's not as hot there as in the southern blast furnaces, but it's just warm enough for blackspot to be a non-stop assault from June through September (ie., the heart of the rose growing season). |
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 NY (My Page) on Sat, Mar 31, 07 at 16:40
| Forget the catalog claims and the nursery recommendations. What you need is real advice from real people who really don't spray in your climate. Then you ask for a list of reliable mail-order nurseries since practically all of the recommendations will be things unknown in the local nursery trade. The east coast and the gulf coast can start you off with recommendations, but I honestly believe you can grow things no-spray that would be laughably disease prone here. |
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- Posted by patricia43 z8 AL (My Page) on Sat, Mar 31, 07 at 16:55
| Angela, you will cook roses in the south with that canola oil. You will not have blackspot, because it will burn the leaves off. |
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| we just got home from nursery shopping (I got my annual fix of Lobelias and bought several other spring blooming annuals and perennials. I browsed through the roses at Lowe's. Guess what the roses in worse shape and loaded with various spots were the Knockouts. They had canker, were in dried out soil; the miserable plants probably are leftovers from last year. Still they were positively infected with various spots. |
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| rett-the cornmeal goes on the ground, about 1 C per plant around the base. The milk spray goes on the plant as thick as you want to apply it. If you put too much milk in your spray, it may smell curdled in a day or two--I do the 10-20% and it worked for me. Everybody here has their own opinions about what works or doesn't. Of course chemicals work--the question was whether there was a non-chemical alternative. I live in Blackspot Alley--but this treatment worked in my garden. |
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| If you only have a few roses, Wilt-Pruf coupled with Rose Flora does a good job as far as organic. Adding roses and introducing more stains of blackspot made us decide on the chemical route. In Missouri, you have a definite problem with RRD (Rose Rosette Disease) and in my garden, the WP has been worth it's weight in gold to help with that problem. Planting disease resistant varieties is good as far as the climate allows. Here in west central Arkansas, we spray almost all the roses with chemicals for disease control and add the WP to aid in the control of the RRD. It's a trade-off for growing wonderful roses and being able to enjoy. |
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- Posted by melissa_thefarm NItaly (My Page) on Sun, Apr 1, 07 at 3:56
| Could you get interested in Teas? You might find some hardy enough for your area and black-spot-proof (not guaranteed). I think they're wonderful roses, and not just for practical reasons--they're beautiful, as plants and as flowers. If you are interested, go over to the antique roses forum and ask about them. Melissa |
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| my garden is no-spray and darn near no attention at all, except for the daily staring at each bush. It's as close to no care as one can get, except possibly if the roses were growing in an abandoned homesite someplace... ANYWAY, I do get the odd leaf or 2 with BS, but it never amounts to much and the teas and chinas (yes, and 1 knockout!) laugh it off and go on their merry rosey ways... I wouldn't even try growing anything else! |
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- Posted by jeanne_texas Z 8B TX (jeanne007@hughes.net) on Sun, Apr 1, 07 at 9:58
| I am totally sure that their will be people that won't agree with me..I am a totally NO-CHEMICAL-SPRAY garden and do get some blackspot but not enough to totally defoliate any of my roses..My regime is to toss a couple handfuls of cornmeal around my roses monthly and wiggle it into the soil with my fingers and water well..I keep all the leaves out of my beds and dispose of them in the trashcan..I also have been known to use bakingsoda spray when there is slight mildew early on..which is rare in my gardens..My school of thought is that the more chemicals you use in your gardens the more the roses depend on them and you destroy the beneficial insects in your garden that help keep a balance...I top dress my beds every year with a couple inches of composted cowmanure and compost!!..Feeding the soil/microbes in return makes my roses happy...Jeanne and of course my regime is Alfalfa Tea and Rose Fertilizer!! |
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| You just need to adjust your plant selection and tolerance for disease. If you want a florist type rose, I think that's really hard to get without a greenhouse and spray program (that's where they come from). A dedicated hobbyist can get similar roses outdoors with an appropriate spray program, but its high maintenance. Enter the old garden roses, and a bunch of more recent ones that are disease resistant- e.g. many Buck's roses, bred for the state next door. This means they can get blackspot, even defoliate, and live to bloom another day. Start off with the Earthkind roses, and follow the lead of checking this forum for "no spray". For some specific examples, try Chinas like Cramoisi Superior, Mutabilis, or Ducher. Try some teas like BR Cant, or Duchess de Brabant. Or a Buck like Carefree Wonder. If you think you have humidity and heat, try Columbia, SC. They have a no spray antique and found rose garden at their Riverbanks Zoo, and the roses do quite well. A specimen of La Mortola covers a 30 foot high gazebo. Reve D'Or spreads to cover 20 feet in either direction on a fence 10 feet high, and so on. You can grow "long stem" roses, but it takes work, and won't be chemical free. |
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| With over 150 roses, I subscribe to Darwin Theory’s Survival of the Fittest in my garden, starting with disease resistant roses. If leaves get black spots and fall on the mulch, they would be left there until the next layer of leave compost are added and mixed in. The roses don’t get anymore black spots without my cleaning of the rose bed. Since the roses grow lush and full, people don’t see they have some black spotted leaves hidden somewhere under the bushes. Milk solution spray is used to control mildew on some roses when that happens. Messenger experiment was started last year on the HT’s and DA’s – not sure if I will have the time to follow the spraying schedule this year, although they seemed to respond well. It’s already a chore to fertilizer them on a regular basis, in addition to pruning and weeding, and the time taken to admire them. I’m one of those people who stare at the roses, and they seem to like it :). In short, My way to control black spots is to grow disease resistant roses, and to make the soil healthy with composts, alfalfa, coffee grounds, corn meal, seaweed, et...Other than that, no –cides (organic or inorganic) are used on the roses. Everyone gets a chance to enjoy the rose garden – the good and bad insects, the butterflies, the birds and the bees, the fur babies, the little ones and the big ones. Life is good. |
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| Like Olga, I use micronized sulfur applied as a spray. It's a benign substance and a fairly effective fungicide, but it washes off easily and must be applied frequently. I've tried all the organic remedies, and the only ones that work in my climate are antitranspirant (such as Wilt Pruf) and sulfur. Even with sulfur, I have to avoid the most susceptible varieties. |
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| Michael, I didn't see you posting for ages. I am HAPPY to see you back. I try to move to a no spray direction. Probably half and half right now. Disease resistance is such a regional thing, it really helps to ask for local advice, if any is available. The other option, and that is what I try to do, is to plant roses that supposed to be resistant in your climate based on the forum recomendations, books,etc and seeif is it true in your own conditions. Chances are that you will find some that will work for you, but it will take some time and commitment to make changes. Olga |
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- Posted by newjersey_rose 6-NJ (My Page) on Sat, Apr 7, 07 at 0:11
| Ok.....pesticides have gotten a bad rap. Did you know the natural toxins in vegetables (that help them deal with pests and disease) are more carcinogenic than anything you can spray. This false belief in the toxicity of manmade chemicals stems (pun intended) from the Ames Test run by Dr. Ames years ago. He used bacteria because of their quick life cycle (enabling tests on many generations in a short period of time) and fed them large doses of pesticides. Of course they showed signs of mutations (cancer) and his tests were then used for many other items. The problem was that the test was way to sensitive and Dr. Ames himself said they were useless……unfortunately, even though the Dr. who invented the tests said they were useless, they took hold and have led to today’s hysteria about pesticides. It has been discovered that almost all naturally occurring organisms have toxins and when given at high enough doses will produce cell mutations. Upon further testing Dr. Ames discovered that organic vegetables contain 5% of their weight in toxic chemicals…..naturally occurring to help the plant deal with insects and disease. Nature produces the most toxic chemicals….celery, alfalfa, sprouts and mushroom are full of carcinogens. When they did a ranking of pesticides and other items as to their levels of danger pesticides ranked lower than organic mushrooms, herb tea, peanut butter, and alcohol. However, these things aren't harmful to you.....on the contrary they are almost certainly healthy and necessary.....aside from the alcohol unless it's a Pinot Noir from Carneros. The toxicity of vegetables, although high when compared to pesticides, are so negligible that it does not have any adverse effect. 99.9% of all toxins ingested by humans comes from naturally occurring toxins in foods they eat. That .01% that comes from other sources (ie: pesticides) is way too small to cause any problems. My point is that an IPM (Integrated Pest Mgmt.) system is safe and necessary to produce the best possible roses. With a responsible implementation there is no chance of pesticide toxicity....unless we decide to grow mushrooms....just kidding. Most people are caught up in the hysteria and never get to see the science. Pesticides when used responsibly are not harmful. Michael |
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- Posted by karenforroses z5 NorthernMI (My Page) on Sat, Apr 7, 07 at 7:02
| Angela, I tried the Cornell spray a few years ago and, even though I only sprayed when it was cool, and made sure the roses were well hydrated first, they still burned the rose leaves badly. And didn't prevent the black spot. There are some folks who say they've had good luck with it, but it didn't work for me. |
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| Yes Michael, but the toxins in plants are things we have evolved with. Our livers have the ability to detoxify such things as long as we aren't overdosing on them. You will never, ever be able to say that about synthetics. Like it or not, no one knows what the 50 or 60 year old effects of DDT, methoxychlor, dieldrin, etc., etc. are. The tests have never been done, but the pestsicides were allowed. The same applies to today's pesticides. We are the guinea pigs in an ongoing experiment, even while the chemical industry assures us that all is safe. Once upon a time I'm sure they said the same about the lead arsenate being sprayed on the orchards, if anyone ever thought to ask. |
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- Posted by newjersey_rose 6-NJ (My Page) on Sat, Apr 7, 07 at 22:37
| Yes, but where does it end. You can say we don't know what will happen in 50-60 years but the science right now does not back the hysteria. Making guesses based on no more than the fact that it's manmade is intellectually dishonest. There is no evidence of an increase in cancer rates and for that matter no cancer can be connected to pesticide use. Making a blank statement about pesticides is frankly not scientific and at worst irresponsible. I'm not saying some time down the road something may be discovered to be really bad......but there is no evidence right now. We can't live our lives wondering what that incredibly bad thing may be.......it may be mushrooms! How many times have we heard that eggs are bad for you only to be told some time down the road that they're good for you again. Or how about liver.....was good for me when I was a kid (yuck!) and now bad. The evidence right now says that it's none of the above since cancer rates have been steady for years. If cancer rates have not increased since the inception of pesticide use I can only conclude that pesticides do not play a role. It is something else that humans have been in contact with all along. My guess is that it's alot of something elses. But to blame something that has saved millions of lives is not right. Without pesticides the world's population would not be able to be fed. There would be rampant starvation because you cannot produce enough food to feed the world using organic methods. That's a fact. I'm just tired of getting looked at cross-eyed because I use pesticides. I've done lots of research....taken many tests.....am a certified applicator.....and take what I do very seriously. Having said all that I have the utmost respect for organic gardening. I'm always waiting with baited breath for the newest organic method to see if it works. Because, frankly, if it's found it would be a boon to the world's agricultural markets and make everyone's lives easier and less expensive. However, having tried many of the organic methods (at least all I know) I've found that none work to my satisfaction. I've been confronted by nasty people many times yelling at me that I'm killing everyone or at minimum the environment. I try to talk to them about the facts but as you can imagine that usually does not work over their yelling. Everyone should read up on this topic before establishing an opinion. The facts are just not there against responsible pesticide use. Michael |
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- Posted by organic_lacy 5 (My Page) on Thu, Jun 21, 07 at 16:39
| New Here! Lots of great info just on this link! Rett- where at in Missouri? I'm in the northwest part of the state and have plenty of blackspot. I was curious to see if you'd tried any of the remedies yet. I'm getting a late start this year after that early April freeze we had! |
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- Posted by wildlifegarden 9bFL-PSL (My Page) on Thu, Jun 21, 07 at 17:10
| although I prefer great foliage to enhance the beauty of my blooms, would it be 'retarded' to let the leaves fall off and just cover up the bare knees with a shorter plant? michelle |
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| The plants actually ``feed''through their leaves by the absorption of carbon and other elements in the photosynthesis process.So unless you want those spindly runts which are so common in Florida you go with disease resistant antiques or spray. Must say some of the lollipops you see have lovely blooms but are grotesque examples of a beautiful plants. |
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- Posted by wildlifegarden 9bFL-PSL (My Page) on Thu, Jun 21, 07 at 22:33
| pete, dont get me wrong, I love good foliage almost as much as a deep whif of rose fragrance.... with that said, I notice that when I lay off spraying and they start spotting, only the bottoms lose their leaves. is the plant getting 'enough' with bare knees but leaves on the top 1/2 of the lollipop....hehehe btw, whenever I see bare knees now, I think of your comment about convincing others that the lollipops look good...it makes me laugh (and cry a little too). thx, michelle |
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| Didn't I read in here that Miracid food could help with BS? Also I have read that newspaper can be a good mulch..so is there anything wrong with using newspaper around your roses to keep the spores out and putting some new compost around the roses on top of the newspaper? Wouldn't that help? For me, it isn't that I think all pesticides are going to make me sick. I just like the idea of nature doing it's job. Mankind keeps screwing with mother nature and she will get us in the end. |
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| I think you have to mix the Miracid with nonfat milk, baking soda, canola oil, and cornmeal. No wait, never mind, that's cornbread. |
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| Low fat milk? Corn meal? Baking Soda? Spells and Incantations? All old wives' tales are mostly piffle. The only way to prevent BS, Mildew, et al, if to use a chemical regimen. Everything else is pure donkey fazoo. |
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| LOL, Hoov. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Fri, Jun 22, 07 at 15:07
| A major study at Texas A&M demonstrated that corn meal is an excellent fungicide. And many rose growers report anecdotal evidence of using cornmeal to good effect in reducing blackspot. |
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| As I understand, corn gluten meal was shown to be helpful against certain soil fungi, such as the one that causes crown rot. Anything beyond that? |
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| Here is the Texas finding: Biological Control of Soilborne Fungi "It is known that certain fungal species in the genus Trichoderma feed on mycelium and sclerotia of [bad guys] Sclerotinia minor. Sclerotium rolfsii and Rhizoctonia sp. All peanut fields in Texas tested to date have a natural population of Trichoderma. For several years, tests have been conducted in Texas using corn meal to stimulate Trichoderma development as a way to control the major soilborne disease fungi. When yellow corn meal is applied to fields in the presence of moist surface soil, Trichoderma builds up very rapidly over a 5 to 10 day period. The resulting high Trichoderma population can destroy vast amounts of Sclerotinia, Sclerotium and Rhizoctonia. This enhanced, natural biological control process is almost identical to the processes that occur when crop rotation is practiced. The level of control with corn meal is influenced by: 1) organic matter source 2) soil moisture, 3) temperature, and 4) pesticides used. Seasonal applications of certain fungicides may inhibit Trichoderma. Testing will continue to determine the rates and application methods that will give consistent, economical control." So it's based on a particular soil fungus eating other particular soil fungi. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Fri, Jun 22, 07 at 16:46
| Michael, from what I understand corn gluten meal is a very effective pre-emergent against weed-seeds (all seeds actually) but doesn't have the same fungicide effect as regular corn meal. I, by no means, want to claim over-great "authority" on this issue. I'm just reporting what I've gleened from a fair amount of reading on the subject this year. An obvious danger of the "internet" era is that "mis-information" is easily passed on as "knowledge certain". I don't want to make that mistake myself. From what I've read about Corn Meal, it actually encourages "positive" fungi, which overpower and destroy bad fungi, rather than killing bad fungi directly. BTW, I always enjoy reading your posts! Cheers, |
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| You're right, Bill, it was regular corn meal that they were using to feed up the predatory fungi. Thing is, blackspot and mildew aren't primarily soil-borne diseases. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Fri, Jun 22, 07 at 17:12
| Michael, first sorry for the crossing posts. Blackspot is (thankfully) a rather minor problem here. But from what I understand (perhaps wrongly) is that spores from falling leaves mulitply in the soil and then often get re-introduce to the plant by spraying water and the like. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if positive fungi could reduce or kill the spores around rose bushes that blackspot could be reduced? Or does this seem "off-base"? Just thinking out loud here. Bill |
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| Blackspot can survive in fallen leaves, but we don't have any knowledge that the Trichoderma fungi eat blackspot. Blackspot does not multiply in the soil, so far as I know. The main source of reinfection in spring is thought to be from lesions on the rose canes; after that, it is passed from leaf to leaf. I've noticed that, when roses are pruned to the ground in spring, blackspot is slower to take hold in the new foliage. Reinfection in that case probably comes from fallen leaves or leaf fragments in the mulch. |
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- Posted by dan_keil_cr Illinois z5 (dankeil_1@yahoo.com) on Fri, Jun 22, 07 at 20:52
| ..My school of thought is that the more chemicals you use in your gardens the more the roses depend on them and you destroy the beneficial insects in your garden that help keep a balance...I top dress my beds every year with a couple inches of composted cowmanure and compost!!..Feeding the soil/microbes in return makes my roses happy...Jeanne Jeanne Texas made this comment earlier in the post. We are talking about blackspot, not insects. A fungicide prevents or kills fungi only. It will not harm insects in any way! An insecticide kills insects not fungi! |
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- Posted by williamcartwright (My Page) on Fri, Jun 22, 07 at 23:25
| Dan, are we supposed to have a higher opinion of you because you boast that you've mishandled dangerous chemicals, and you haven't contracted cancer? While fungicide kills fungus, it kills beneficial fungus along with the fungus we'd prefer not to have growing on our roses. Just as broad-spectrum insecticides upset natural eco-systems by killing "good and bad" insects indiscriminately, so too is the natural balance disrupted the use of fungicides. Jeanne's point is spot on! You go on to say we can rely on the EPA to protect us from dangerous pesticides. Well, how much DDT, or Diazinon, or any number of now banned pesticides was used BEFORE it got pulled off the market? Its a little late to pull a product *after* its been released and used. Current pesticides *may* be safer for humans, but they have proved quite deadly to bees, butterflies and other beneficial insects. Your reckless attitudes are truly frightening. God help the people of Illinois and Indiana if you're the person dispensing growing advice. I wonder if there's a way to file a complaint with the ARS? |
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| Rett- You might find some helpful info at http://www.organicrosecare.org/ I happened across this link at the Ashdown roses website. Everybody else- I didn't know that black spot was such a controversial issue! That said, I'm all for organic as much as possible. If I get a rose that is a constant problem, it's going out the door. I plant flowers to enjoy them, not to slave over them or have them run my life- they are supposed to bring something joyful and positive into my life. Brandy |
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| I like the 'pesticides' are safer than 'vegetables' argument. Why don't you test this theory and go drink a big ole glass of your favorite pesticide and see what happens? Michael,your confusing volume with the level of adverse effect. Almost all vitamins, by the strictest definition qualify as 'toxic' if taken in massive doses. So yes, if you ate a dump truck load of your favorite vegetable you would die. However, most pesticides are neurotoxins which damage brain and nerve tissues in relatively small doses, as compared to vitamin toxicitity, or overdosing on vegetables. And speaking of being dishonest, you are not taking into account the history of pesticides. DDT, diazianon, Dieldrin, and a host of other once 'safe' pesticides have thankfully been removed from the market, but not before the damage had been done. Dieldrin, banned since 1974, continues as a significant risk because it remains in the soil. Dieldrin is stored in the fat and leaves the body very slowly.Large doses or small doses over time cause nerve damage(one of the reasons it was removed from the market) and it has been shown to cause cancer in lab mice. So hey, if you want to trust the agricultural/chemical companies to protect your health, that's clearly your business. But to claim that there is no evidence that pesticides are harmful to human health is not supported by the history of the industry and just grossly irresponsible on your part. Peace,
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- Posted by sunny_grower 5/6 ohio (My Page) on Sat, Jun 23, 07 at 17:45
| new jersey rose you have a valid point. I was just talking with my hubby the other day about how plants like trees (where do you think wintergreen oils, tea tree oils etc come from?) use chemicals to protect themselves from disease and pests (but are carefully made not to affect the pollinators they need like bees.) my hubby uses a winter green and tea tree pattie with sugar and grease to feed his bees to kill the pests that attack them, it doesn't hurt the bees and kills the mites and other parasites that bother them. This makes perfect sense to me as plants wouldn't target bees their main pollinator. In fact if you took I think it is a half a teaspoon of the wintergreen oil, as it is very concentrated, and the oder of just a few drops really knocks you out, it can make you very sick, so newjersey rose you have a point about dosages determining whether something will kill or not. Scientists do tend to give dosages that most people could never achieve to do their tests, naturally if an animal is given high doses of something and not allowed to eat or drink anything else of course it will sicken and die. I am wondering what tree or plant oils does a plant use to fight against fungus disease? i was reading articles on how the chinese came up with their combinations of herbs to treat certain conditions, and the way they did it was by observing nature, how animals responded to certain foods, how trees fought off diseases, and plants and over thousands of years they learned, passing on the info. maybe we ought to do the same things as we try to avoid harsh chemicals to fight disease. in fact if you kill the bad fungus you may just kill the healthy fungus in the soil that eat the bad fungus. So i am inclined to believe ti is all a balancing act. My graham thomas is blackspotted, so is my pinata, I have been spraying garlic and milk and vinegar spray on them. so far it doesn't seem to be stopping it tho I have not been spraying that much. most are still bs free. of course most are purported to be very disease resistant varieities and that may be why. still just learning myself. RR |
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| Good post dan, very sensible. I've tried every organic solution for black spot for 2 years. Nothing worked. For the first two years I had roses, I spent all my time picking up leaves, cutting of diseased leaves and worrying about blackspot. In some climates you just can't beat it. If I didn't spray, I wouldn't have roses. I learned how much when I stopped spraying last fall. It stayed warm, the blackspot flourished and I saw just how good a job the spray does when I do spray. |
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| I worked in the medical field for several years. Health effects from chemical exposure can sometimes take years to develop. The damage has been done, but you may not see it for awhile. I'm sure most of us have had some damage done at some point in our lives. I lived near orchards and picked fruit as a kid in the summer. The chemicals used to spray those orchards have long since been banned. They were considered "safe" at the time. If I had handled spilled chemicals of significant amount without protection, I would have some serious testing done. Certain poisons will show up in a persons' hair. People used to say smoking and high sun exposure never hurt anyone either, because the health effects were not seen for years. Our body cells are not designed to withstand chemical exposure, and it will, in fact, damgage them. It then later manifests itself into neurological or other types of disease. One of my neighbors, a wonderful man, was an engine expert, and over the years had handled raw gasoline with his bare hands, because at one time the "experts" felt it was not harmful to do so. Once it became known that it was extremely harmful to do so, he stopped. He developed a strange blood disorder that resulted in him having to have many transfusions. His doctors felt it was related to the gasoline, although there was no controlled scientific "proof". He suffered greatly for a few years, and finally passed away. Our skin absorbs things. That's why we have medications on the market in the form of patches. If you haven't noticed already, "they" don't pull things off the shelves until people start dropping like flies. I am not saying that no one should spray. That is a very individual choice. I seldom spray, and when I do I suit up and wear a respirator. It is very hot down here now, and I have decided not to spray anything during the summer with anything more toxic than Messenger. I have also decided to remove any hybrid teas or any other plants that cannot hack that. I guess I am moving towards no spray, or "once in a blue moon spray". Just a note.....last year I sprayed the roses around my screenhouse with a Banner Max/Manzate mixture. It was not windy out, and the bushes were planted 6 feet from the screen. I kept my cats inside while I sprayed and for a few days afterwards to make sure if there had been a slight amount of overspray through the screen onto the concrete, that it would have had the time to dissipate. It is not supposed to be harmful after a day. All 5 cats became severely ill with vomiting within a few hours after being allowed in the screenhouse. I pressure washed before I let them out again. I will NEVER spray anywhere near my house again. I think Jeri Jennings mentioned once that she stopped spraying after her pets had a seizure. Pete is right. The only way to really combat blackspot, or other fungal diseases, is to plant varieties that are not bothered much with them. I'd like to add to that by saying if the roses are fed (this includes feeding the soil), watered, have enough sun and air circulation, they are usually able to shrug off stuff a whole lot easier. I also feel they have immune systems that are quite capable of fighting disease, unless it is a weakling to begin with. I don't grow weaklings anymore. Believe it or not, I am growing some hybrid teas and David Austins with very little in the way of spray. The ones that were blackspot magnets are gone, but that is a choice I made. I think it scared the rest of them! Even Abe Darby is behaving, and he is supposed to get blackspot easily. I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just hoping to get some of you to think, because I think your families would like to have you around as long as possible. Sandy |
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| There is an organics rose forum for those that want to go that way. We neither want nor need anyone who does not want to use over the counter garden products lecturing us. If you insist on doing so please specify what chemical you are referring to.After all, water consists of what we call chemicals as does everything else you can think of so enough with those ``dangerous chemicals'' remarks. Thank you. |
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- Posted by quitecontrary 6 (My Page) on Sun, Jun 24, 07 at 5:01
| Pete - Most of this thread is a thoughtful, civil discussion of an important rose-related topic. Can't we just allow one another to express our various views? Yes, there is an organic rose forum. However, that does not make this the "chemical sprays only" forum. This is a general rose forum. I think that the recent success of the Knockout roses illustrates the point that the vast majority of rose growers would prefer to avoid chemicals. There is much good advice in this thread about how to achieve that. |
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| We don't need the personal attacks. We really don't need those belittling,smarmy remarks. Dan expressed his opinion-no need to attack him personally. Lets always leave it an intelligent,mature level. I may not agree with Sandy but I like her,respect her and the way she makes her case. If you choose not to use legal,over the counter products to deal with plant disease-fine. Please don't insinuate that those who do are less caring,intelligent or rational. Attacking people for products used now because of mistakes in the past is similar to attacking the Medical Profession because of practices leeching,blood-letting generations followed. Its not a valid point,just a childish scare tactic. |
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| I agree with pete. I think there are many new people that come to these forums and get scared off of using any product by some posts. I don't mind being informed - with correct information. But I've seen a lot of conjecture and misinformation. About the cats, I don't know what is in Banner Max, but I spray with the Bayer Advanced disease control regularly and my cats do go out in the back yard and have never had a problem. I once even took my cat to the vet after he was vomiting a lot and was concerned because we recently had our lawn treated. The vet (this is vet, not a law care guy) said that the cat would actually have to eat some of the stuff to get sick. I do, however keep them in for 24 hours as is suggested by all lawn care products. The cause of the vomiting was him catching and swallowing a moth, which luckily I saw him do. As far as other chemicals, we all use chemicals. We use them in the home, outside and some of us use them at work. You should always handle them carefully and per the directions. I read about people going on and on about natural products being the best and non-harmful, but that is not always the case. None of what we do is natural, otherwise we'd be living in meadows or forests with no roses except multiflora.
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| Buford, I spray regularly and really no one can make me not to. I however disagree with your statement "None of what we do is natural, otherwise we'd be living in meadows or forests with no roses except multiflora" if you read the forum long enough you know that quite a few people in the antique rose forum and this forum grow many different kinds of roses without spraying and I certainly respect their choice. Whatever one wants to use is fine. Shall we stop trading back and forth these nonsenses. Tracy |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Sun, Jun 24, 07 at 10:58
| With all due respect, sprays ought to be used "carefully and per the directions"...but Buford, you just posted in another thread that you sprayed fungisides on a windy day...got it all over your face...and then make a big joke that at least your face would be protected from black-spot and PM. I don't find that either funny or responsible, yet the predictable characters showed up to gafaw at your dangerous practices. And these attitudes are pretty typical. Then we have people show up to say vegetables are more toxic than pesticides. Another who'se living proof that mis-handling pesticides is OK...cause he ain't dead yet. And to cap it Pete come in to say what is and is not allowed as a subject in the forum. What a lot of nerve. The subject line is about an "Organic way to treat blackspot". It's more than a little obnoxious that y'all feel the need to disrupt the discussion, don't ya think? Especially when a person is trying to do as little damage to the environment as possible. I know this runs counter to the thinking of y'all who just don't give a damn about nature, but give the rest of us a break. This is not your private forum, and the day where you can bully and intimidate anyone who has a differing viewpoint is over. |
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| I didn't say it was a windy day, I said a breeze came up and I got blow back in my face. There is no such thing as no wind. Yes, I made a joke about it, what would you like me to do? I try to be as careful as I can when working in the garden but I am not perfect. Perhaps you should take a look at the 'Embarrassing Things you've done in your Garden' and chastise them a bit. As I've said before, you are an alarmist. A small amount of diluted fungicide is not going to kill anyone. I don't see the sense in getting psycho over it. And stop say y'all. You ain't from the south. Southern California doesn't count. |
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| Can we disagree with each others' positions without making personal attacks on each other? One of the "rules" for use of this forum that everyone agreed to when he/she registered is "no personal attacks." Kate |
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| Has anyone tried Fungus Pharm for black spot? It is a 1% soybean oil, 10% rosemary oil spray, that I used last night for powdery mildew on my roses. Impressive overnight results with 90% resolution of the PM. I wonder if it works as well with black spot. See pix below.
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- Posted by sunny_grower 5/6 ohio (My Page) on Sun, Jun 24, 07 at 17:01
| where can I get a bottle? is it expensive? RR |
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| Here is the website: http://pharmsolutions.com/fungus_pharm.html I paid $19.99 plus $1.55 tax for a total of $21.54 at the local nursery. I diluted it half strength so the bottle cost half of that. The half-strength worked very well for the 20 plus plants I treated and I still have a full bottle. You can order the bottle for $12.95 on the website. |
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| I've seen this around over the last year or two. Unfortunately, one of the people in the house is violently allergic to soy products and tomato products, so I haven't tried it. Don't want to make that trip to the hospital again. It would be interesting to hear if anyone else has had any luck with it. It IS a pretty color, too. Candy pink. :-) |
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| I don't feel it is sinful for anyone to use chemicals on their roses,as long as they are used responsibly and according to the directions stated. I think the EPA is trying to keep the most damaging ones out of production, but in most cases ill effects on humans or animals aren't known until they are used for sometime. I DO feel it is very stupid to use chemicals without wearing proper protection. All the labels on these chemicals state that you should wear protective clothing. Some say to wear a respirator, some don't. Wear a respirator anyway. The few times I thought I would spray without one because of the heat resulted in my not feeling very well the rest of the day or evening, and I could "smell" the stuff for several hours. Maybe it was in my mind, but I think it was in my system and working its way out. However, it's your body, and you can do whatever you choose with it. Free country, and I like it that way. Be mindful of your neighbors and all pets. If you spray, and you are smart about it, I don't feel there is a huge risk involved. However, there is always some risk, even with precautions, however small. Gloves can rip, etc. I do spray when necessary, but I sure like to minimize the times I do so, because I absolutely hate having to put all the stuff on before doing so. My solution is to have mostly roses that can survive without it, but sometimes we've just got to have that rose that makes our heart flutter, even if we have to spray it. Keep in mind that some "natural" products can also cause harm. Copper, an ingredient in some sprays, is a natural element, but can cause grave harm to humans if inhaled or ingested. Again, I'm not trying to be overbearing or tell anyone what they should do or not do. Used responsibly, spraying roses is not illegal. Boy, this is like getting into a discussion about politics or religion! Sandy |
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| I just placed newspaper under my roses that have BS..then put new mulch on top. I am sure the newspaper will get soggy and go away..however since BS is a spore..I thought that might help. I purchased Serenade a organic spray which is a good bacteria and used it. I will keep you posted on how this works. I do think..that since BS is in the ground and is a spore that new mulch and keeping bad leaves off the ground when you can can really help. I would be interested in trying the new stuff that is pretty pink. Some of you folks get very testy. I will say however that because I am keeping chemicals to a bare minimum that I do feel quite superior to those that use chemicals. LOL I like my bugs and am now excited when I see garden spiders out there. |
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| I have those huge spiders in my Mrs B.R. Cants that make an impressive web and camp out for bugs. Freaks my youngest daughter out. It's hilarious! I love it when I can "bug" a teenager. You know, I spread newspaper around my hybrid teas and David Austins this year before adding pine bark just to "recycle" it all. I wonder if there is something in the newsprint that fungus doesn't like. It could be a fluke, but I have not had any blackspot issues at all this year. We have been fairly dry though too. I don't know what to do about the thrips and am getting very discouraged about them. I'm going to have to spray my cutting garden. I'm hoping Conserve will do the trick.
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| Good to know the newspaper worked. Sorry..I dont know what to do about Thrips |
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| The old conventional wisdom was to replace all your mulch every spring to get rid of black spot spores and whatever else was wintering in there. So perhaps putting down the newspaper over the old mulch suppressed the spores as well. We used newspapers on a new tomato bed we made. There was an invasive ground cover there previously. And althought we thought we got it all out, new sprouts came up. So we took off the mulch, laid down the paper, put the mulch back and no more sprouts! |
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| What the heck..newspaper is plentiful. I also try and keep leaves off the bottom of the stems..and try and keep the branches open so that air gets through. Being in Seattle things get wet and soggy. I think the newspaper is a great idea. I will let you know how it works |
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| The disease carries over most efficiently on the canes, unless you prune to the ground. It is not primarily a soil-borne disease. However, thoroughly covering the old mulch does help some against blackspot as well as rose rust and cercospora disease. --I use sulfur because I can mix it in the kitchen if I want and spray in my shorts and sandals with no gloves and no fretting. Spraying for me is a pleasant 20 minutes in the garden. Sulfur works well enough in combination with selecting appropiate varieties and judicious application of the shovel. It doesn't work if you let things get out of hand before starting it. --I see no moral or environmental reason to avoid synthetic fungicides, and I often recommend them to people looking for the most effective remedy to a galloping problem. Injudicious use of insecticides is a different matter. --There is uncertainty about whether longterm use of a particular synthetic fungicide entails chronic health risks like cancer. Many rose growers have as much chemical exposure as ag workers. Ag workers have patterns of chronic illness different from the general population. I don't know that there's a significant risk, but I don't know that there isn't, either. I prefer not having anything to worry about when I spray or handle my roses. If others put a higher priority on having zero blackspot, that's fine with me. |
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- Posted by newjersey_rose 6-NJ (My Page) on Mon, Jun 25, 07 at 16:39
| Wow, seems like some people think I made up the vegetable thing. Listen, I applaud anyone trying to go organic, because, like I said in an earlier post, that I guess, wasn't read very thoroughly, I have lots of respect for organic gardening and hope that organic methods that work are discovered. Right now they do not exist to my standards (which I also said). It is not backed by science that pesticides and insectides have caused widespread cancer....the facts are not there. When used responsibly these products are fine. As for the intrusion into the organics question, I answered because it seemed the questioner was misinformed about organics and manmade pesticides.....was only trying to help. Those angry at me for telling what I know seem to be proving my point about the hate spewed because I use pesticides. Making alarming statements about people dying when there is no evidence that pesticides caused it is not helpful. If you're really interested in knowing the science look it up.....just don't go to an agenda driven site. And Collin, please provide your evidence of the mass of disease and death caused by pesticides. You have labeled me irresponsible without providing your evidence. Not just a particular pesticide, but show me how pesticide use has caused a decline in the populations health since its inception. There is no such evidence. DDT has not caused any adverse effects on humans even though it was used extensively years ago. They used to dust the soldiers uniforms with it to keep vermin and bugs away. My mother remembers running behind the pesticide trucks to dance in the pesticide fog. Even in these high doses these pesticides have not been shown to have caused any long term health problems. Again, keep looking for an organic method.....in the meantime use pesticides responsibly and enjoy your beatiful roses. Michael |
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| Michael, Well, you might be interested in the following. http://www.texasep.org/html/pes/pes_3hum.html http://www.pmac.net/pesticide_combo.html http://www.pmac.net/parkinson.html http://www.caps.20m.com/OCFP.htm There are many additional studies. You are correct that more extensive studies need to be done and that existing research is inconclusive. But that is mainly from a lack of information, which does not imply safety. Happy gardening. Peace, |
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| If anyone plans on vacationing in Canada, stop into a garden center up there and pickup some Folpet wettable powder and mail it back home or throw it in your car. This chemical, although not organic, has been very effective in controlling black spot on my roses. The brand I have is by Later's. |
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- Posted by dan_keil_cr Illinois z5 (dankeil_1@yahoo.com) on Mon, Jun 25, 07 at 21:28
| Bill Cartwright, When "those" chemicals were out and being used it was 40 to 60 years ago. No one was sure of what was going to happen years later. But those chemicals were taken off the market because of MISUSE not the proper use of them. Of course 40 -60 years ago things have changed in a big way. I was not bragging I was making a point. More people got sick and killed from chemicals from accidents,like unused pesticide being put in a coke bottles and then some kid finding it and drinking it. Think of the workers in the fields when a plane comes down to spray with the workers still out there. It happened but the land owners didn't want to lose time. Time has changed, chemicals have changed to the better. That's because the EPA was started. If it was around 60 years ago things might be this way it is now. About me, I teach pesticide safety once a year to my Rose Society. You over looked the pesticide safety reminders I put in my comments. I always stress safety!!! Anything that you put on your plants is a chemical. I don't want to sway anyone. I always say if it works for you, keep using it. I know what works for me and I have lots of earthworms! |
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| DDT was bad no matter how you slice it. It didn't matter if it was used "properly" or not. I'm sure my liver still has some of it lurking in there. I have a question about sulpher. Will it burn leaves if the outside temps are high? Is it as effective as something like Banner Max? One thing I do to keep the toxicity to myself down when buying fungicides is to try and purchase mostly those that are on the "Caution" list, rather than the ones marked "Warning" or "Danger". Compass, Immunox, and Pentathlon are all on the "Caution" list. Honor Guard, which is the generic form of Banner Max is on the "Warning" list, so I have to be extremely careful if I decide to use it. Rosemania has Immunox listed as a "Warning", but my bottle of it says "Caution". Funginex is on the "Danger" list, so I do not buy it anymore. If anyone has any other less toxic methods or chemicals that they use to control blackspot, I'd be interested in hearing about it. Best thing for me is getting rid of the worst culprits. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Mon, Jun 25, 07 at 23:03
| Dan,I must respectfully disagree with some of your conclusions. Banned pesticides have been removed from the market because they are inherently dangerous. Dangerous to humans, and dangerous to wildlife. People can mitigate some of the worst exposure to themselves, by covering up, wearing gloves, goggles, and respirators. But beneficial insects and other wildlife have no such advantages. The most common pesticides used by rose growers today all kill bees. This is a very serious issue, as I'm sure you are aware. And, since you teach pesticide safety, you must realize that many of the common practices used by rose growers here on Gardenweb constitute "misuse". It seems to me people greatly underestimate the damage they do to eco-systems when they spray. A healthy garden will almost always respond to pest threats with natural control measures. When gardens are sprayed the natural resiliency and natural defenses are largely lost. Infestations almost always follow broad-spectrum insecticide use. And a cycle starts where people are forever spraying against new pests because they've destroyed all the predators in their gardens. You can see it in this forum. The folks who spray get hit with every pest and every disease under the sun. And their solution is almost always to spray more. Those who don't spray rarely have problems. I do not believe this is a coincidence. I may not sway you, but I'd at least ask you to consider what I'm saying, and to take it into account before you advise others to use pesticides. There is a big downside in going down the chemical path. Peace, Bill |
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| Bill, you've never been to my yard. You don't know my climate. You don't know my plants. I planted roses for the first time 6 years ago. I didn't use anything beyond dirt and miracle gro. As soon as the conditions were ripe, I had black spot. Now, what did I do (beyond planting a rose) to cause that? BTW, I live in a relatively new subdivision so it's not as if there were other people here with roses. I also had JBs before I ever sprayed anything. You have already admitted that you don't get blackspot or JBs in your area, so you really should not comment on what causes it. And there are no predators for JBs and no magic plants that deter them. I see plenty of posts from people who don't spray. They either live in different areas or only buy certain roses that don't get bs or just put up with it. I have no problem with that. That is their choice. But please don't pretend that since they don't spray, their yards are protected by the no-spray fairy. As I just said on another thread, I have a big yard. Part of it is roses. They get fungicide and occasionally insecticde. The rest of my yard is spray free. Including a total spray free butterfly garden with host and nectar plants. With plenty of activity. Please keep posting dan, we need to have some balance in the information on this board. |
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| I think in my mind I always lumped pesticides and funcides together. Now I realize my mistake. Michaelg-the guy at the nursery said that sulfur leaves a ugly residue? |
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| Not a mistake. Fungicides, insecticides, herbicides and miticides are all forms of pesticides. Even substances such as copper and sulfur are pesticides, even though they are naturally occuring substances. Vinegar is a pesticide when used to kill a fungus or weeds or insects. |
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| -- (scottys) Folpet was the most popular rose fungicide 30 years ago as Ortho Phaltan. It is effective against blackspot but no more so than many commonly available products. It is phytotoxic at a level similar to Daconil and sulfur. It is slightly effective against mildew. Ortho replaced it with triforine (Funginex) which is less effective against BS but non-burning. -- (zyperiris) Sulfur leaves a visible residue like mancozeb, Daconil, Immunox and many other fungicides do. The sulfur residue washes off easily if I want to show off my garden. Some systemics don't leave a visible residue. --(sandy808) Sulfur in my experience is about as effective as Funginex but less effective than Banner is considered to be. (I used Banner for a couple of months before deciding to go back.) Our blackspot pressure is as bad as anywhere in the country. I have grown many standard hybrid teas using only sulfur for years at a time. Leaf loss by late summer might be 10% or 20% at the bottom, not a significant effect. I have discarded some varieties as being too susceptible to grow here with sulfur, mostly floribundas and OGR, no HTs that I can think of. It can burn in hot weather-- Olga thinks the point is around 93 or 95. So you might be able to use it in Florida all year if you are on the coast, but not if you are inland. It is not well suited to the Florida rainy season because heavy rains wash it off. Someone wanting to reduce chemical exposure could use it from mid-September through April and then switch to a systemic. Watering before spraying is especially important with sulfur, and I've occasionally burned new roses from pots, with their limited root zone. Otherwise, no problem with burning here. Warning/Caution labels-- It's important to understand that these refer to acute hazards such as immediate poisoning rather than chronic hazards over a lifetime. Also they refer to the concentration in the package rather than the concentration being sprayed. So a producer could get a lower hazard rating just by diluting the product with 50% water and then instructing you to put twice as much in the tank sprayer. Bayer's Di-syston is such a potent acute hazard that the only way they can market it is by diluting it with pounds of cheap fertilizer as "2-in-1 granules." As a concentrate, it would call for the skull and crossbones "poison" rating. But the fertilizer is still dangerous. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Tue, Jun 26, 07 at 15:39
| Buford, while it's true local conditions means blackspot ought not be a major problem where I live, it's not true that it doesn't exist. Believe me, a great many rose growers in my area spray with "Funginex". And I've seen time and again, that the folks who start up with fungicides DO develop serious blackspot problems. This is the truth. Whenever I've attended rose society meeting in my local area I also find people who spray have pest and disease issues I simply don't face. Seems clear to me fungicides upset the natural balance in just the same way broad spectrum insecticides do. Good soil needs positive fungi, kill those and the soil is wide open to negative fungi. So a cycle of disease is perpetuated. Or one has to continually attempt to sterilize their rarden through chemical means. I haven't visited your home, but I've seen a few pictures. Looks very pretty. The butterfly garden sound cool. And yes, JBs are an especially difficult "alien" species with a laok of effective native predators. Makes their control quite difficult, I do understand this. I'm just suggesting we keep the big picture in mind before we use "the big guns". Peace, Bill |
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| Bill-I live in a retirement community in Fl..Many people grow at least a few modern roses as paean to back home.However most don't spray and their plants are a mockery as disease ridden plants are pathetic down here.The few of us who take the rose growing seriously spray the ones we know will develop blackspot and/or other fungal problems. We have the experience and knowledge to know what the score is here.Someone from another area telling us the opposite [untreated plants will be healthier and more attractive]really is uninformed. Ignorance may be bliss but it doesn't help someone wanting meaningful advice on growing roses.Better to leave it at what you know,not what you would like it to be. |
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| William, I agree with your values, but in this case, you don't really get it. In my climate, assuming normal patterns of rain, I'd estimate 95% to 98% of all unsprayed repeat-blooming roses, including OGR, will defoliate from blackspot by midsummer and start spotting again as soon as they refoliate. Then the depleted roses go into a winter that will cause severe cane damage without the food stash needed to make a good recovery in spring. This occurs regardless of any attempt to perfume the air with underplantings or boutique herbal sprays. It happens regardless of whether fungicide has previously been sprayed in the garden. It happens regardless of how rich and organic the soil is. Severe blackspot appears in every unsprayed new garden the first year and gets worse from there, as various BS strains locate their preferred hosts. To build a successful no-spray garden in such a climate requires a huge amount of knowledge and effort, unless one is happy to settle for Knock Outs, the more resistant 60% of Meidilands, and once bloomers (in a climate where roses can bloom for six and a half months). You plant roses that are recommended as resistant from elsewhere, for example teas and chinas, and they aren't resistant at all. Or in the case of some modern roses, they are resistant for five years, then they collapse horribly when the wrong strain of blackspot shows up-- a particularly heartbreaking experience that I've undergone repeatedly. So, it's KOs, or it's plant sexy roses that are winter-hardy and ignore them for the months they are defoliated (as Lori does), or it's nuke them from orbit, or it's what I do-- keep a mixture of resistant and not-too-bad roses, and spray the latter with a safe fungicide. What is completely unworkable is the delusion that the gardener's purity of motive and action does anything at all to keep leaves on the roses. Defoliation from blackspot is the most natural thing in the world for repeat-blooming roses in the East, with a few exceptions. I sometimes enter discussions of problems that I know something about, but haven't experienced. I might offer a suggestion in the tone of "I wonder if. . . ." However, I hope I've avoided giving the impression of preaching at people who are dealing with a situation I haven't dealt with and don't understand. |
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| Well said, Michael. It does make me crazy when people who do not and never have lived in an area where fungal diseases are rampant and mutate(all of them except maybe rust), where basically no repeat blooming rose is immune, and where we deal with pests that they have never seen or dealt with feel it is appropriate to tell us how to grow roses. They just do not get it and they never will but it doesn't stop them from preaching to us as if we are ignorant and haven't tried everything, researched everything and aren't doing our best to make intelligent decisions based on our growing conditions just so we can grow a few roses. Sigh. Carol |
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| SIGH is right. However, I am in unison with William |
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| I can understand the issue with insecticides. But not with fungicides. There is no evidence that fungicides damage plants or cause fungi. And promoting that idea on a rose forum is misleading. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 (My Page) on Tue, Jun 26, 07 at 22:53
| Buford, I'm sorry but you are misinformed. The issue with fungicides is strongly analogous to the use of insecticides. Fungicides disrupt the (potentially) healthy balance of fungi in an eco-system by killing both positive and negative fungus. You might not realize it but fungus plays a very important role in keeping plants healthy. This is quite well established." Quoting from an abstract by Angela O'Callaghan, Phd in Horticulture: "Fungicides kill all the fungi they encounter. While they can be effective against plant disease, they can destroy beneficial fungi and cause serious problems to plant survival." Bill |
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| Fungicides also kill bacteria that eat certain fungi. There are lots of bacteria eating fungus in compost tea. The rose bush that gets the tea often is the healthiest one. I am sure there are commercial organic products that simulate similar action. So when you use these organic products you have to apply frequently because rose foliage isn’t an ideal living environment for most bacteria. Selecting disease resistant roses is always the better choice even when you also treat them with organic remedies. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 0:15
| Hey there Michael, I'm well aware the blackspot "pressure" in the south-east is very high, while ours here in Los Angeles is low. I never said otherwise. I did speak to the conditions where I live (and not to conditions in Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, or anywhere else). To reiterate, here in Los Angeles, I notice, the people who spray with Funginex do develop blackspot issues. Sometimes rather severe blackspot issues. I believe this is because they have killed off the beneficial fungus in their soils through the use of fungicides. I DID NOT make the leap of saying that spraying causes blackspot, nor did I suggest that if people don't spray their roses down South that blackspot will disappear. But when you disrupt balanced eco-systems you do pay a price for it. I said nothing about "perfuming the air with underplantings or boutique herbal sprays". I also said nothing about a "gardener's purity of motive" having anything to do with whether or not they have disease issues. You imply that I ought not "preach", while suggesting I'm "delusional" for advancing ideas that I've never raised in the first place. Please re-read my posts. The things you've criticized me for are not positions I've taken. I appreciate that you've tried very hard to find disease resistant roses and attempt to minimize your use of sprays and use the ones that, to the best of your knowledge, are less dangerous. And I do understand that it is devastating to see plants we have put so much effort into get ravaged. As I said earlier, I've enjoyed reading your posts, and have found them both well reasoned and informative. Rett started this thread worried about a home becoming a toxic waste dump because of all the chemicals needed to grow roses. This is a serious question. Peace, |
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| " Fungicides kill all the fungi they encounter. " That's what I want them to do. And again, I spray them on my roses, not over my entire yard. And if this were true, I wouldn't have the mushrooms and other fungus (including the occasional stinkhorn) in my yard (including my rose beds) that I have. There is a way to use fungicides and insecticides responsibly. You don't seem to want to recognize this. Again, you are free to do what you wish in your garden. All I can tell you is that since I began my spraying program, my roses are extremely healthy and I don't have diseases leaves blowing all over my yard. I simply would not have roses if not for fungicide. I don't view my yard as a toxic waste dump. And it is comments like that that is turning people off to you and other virulent anti-sprayers.
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| Bill, guilty no doubt of exaggerating, sorry. But it's true that the natural balance (here) between blackspot and the great majority of garden roses is simply that the blackspot defoliates the roses over and over again. I'm careful to preserve the predators that control rose slugs, aphids, and thrips in my garden if I'm patient enough to accept some damage. However, it simply doesn't work that way with foliar fungi. Your analogy sounds plausible, but it's a false analogy. It's very easy to find studies about successful control of mites and insects by predators. Can you find us a study about control of blackspot by predatory or pathogenic fungi? The fungicide I use, plain sulfur, is certified organic everywhere. It is a non-toxic human and plant nutrient. It is chemically inert on the soil until it is oxidized by bacteria, when it becomes available as a plant nutrient and mild soil acidifier. I doubt it has any effect on sub-surface soil fungi at all. It is not a wide-spectrum fungicide, but fortunately it is fairly effective against the three "major" rose diseases, BS, PM, and rose rust.. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 11:05
| Buford, unfortunately when you are shown to be wrong on the science, you resort to personal attack. And you twist other peoples points in dishonest ways. You might *think* you want to kill all the fungus in your yard, but trust me, if you had even a modicum of understanding of the role of good fungus in a healthy eco-system you would realize how uninformed your statement is. It's perfectly understandable that a person would not want blackspot damaging their roses...but saying they want to eradicate ALL fungus living in their soil just reveals a radically dangerous and uninformed mind. You really have no idea what you are talking about. Please spend a little time reading about the role of benefical fungus in the soil before you start spouting nonsense, OK? |
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| williamcartwright, you make some good points. Both sides do & it really helps the newbies. However accusing someone of personal attacks & accusing them of dishonesty & total ignorance (in a really condescending way) does nothing to further your point of view. |
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| Mehearty, in all fairness I honestly would feel the same way as Williamcartwright. If you read all the posts that Buford wrote you’ll see the point. While I am not totally agree with everything Bill said I agree that he made some good points. But to stay on topic of this thread, I am more curious about other ways people do it as I now expand my interest to include less demanding OGR in my yard. Tracy |
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| Smart trolls know how to annoy people to the point of frustration.Bill made no valid points he just ticked us off.This is the sad thing as it might discourage others from using the perfectly legal,intensely studied products that make it possible to enjoy beautiful rose bushes in places where we might otherwise not be able to. This is the kind of worthless BS that has made gardenweb rose forum a mere shadow of what it was. |
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| Be nice Pete. Weren’t you the one who was banned for a year for trolling behaviors? Tracy |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 16:59
| Michael, Again, let me reiterate, I understand that blackspot is endemic in the South. I never suggested otherwise. I also never said doing "nothing" or "not spraying" where blackspot pressure is high is going to yeild blackspot free roses. I have no disagreement with anything you have described. And I'm not criticising your methods. My point was (and is) that fungicide use is not without consequences. Allow me an anaolgy which may make my point clearer. If a person has a life-threatening illness caused by a bacteria, it's a very good idea to treat said condition with an antibiotic. It can save your life. What is not a good idea is for "healthy" people to take antibiotics profilactically, because antibiotics kill the positive bacteria in our systems that we depend on for optimum health. If a "healthy" person said, "eww, I don't want bacteria living in me, gimme antibiotics and keep 'em coming" then that person is bound to have health problems. And even when the use of antibiotics is necessary (or even "essential" to the preservation of life) the balance of a persons intestinal tract is disrupted, So it's a good idea after taking antibiotics to work with a doctor or nutritionist to have a plan to eat foods and/or take "pro-biotic" suppliments to reestablish a heathy intestinal tract. So what I'm saying is people who live in places were blackspot pressure is "low" and who none-the-less use fungicides cause problems in their gardens, not unlike a "healthy" person who takes antibiotics when there is no cause. When, as is typical in the South, blackspot pressure is high a person might argue fungicide use is necessary to save their plant from disease. It is just not reasonable to think fungicide use has no negative consequences. Or to belive that "fungus-free" soil is a ideal to strive for, anymore than a "bacteria free" intestine is a good thing. BTW, I'm not trying to suggest you have those beliefs Michael. Obviously, it's better to try to control diseases though good cultural practices (dormant oils, good hygene etc) than using the big guns with all their downsides, if possible. As to literature and studies on using positive fungi and bacteria against blackspot, if you do a search I think you'll find a myriad of articles suggesting things such as "activated compost tea" can have very positive benifits at reestablishing a positive balance of good soil organisms (especially in areas where the soil has been disturbed...such as new subdivisions...or where fungicides have been used). A woman named Dr Laura Ingram is a chief proponent of "ACT", while her ideas are not without controversy, you might want to look into it. The theory behind ACT is that it is much like using probiotics. I'm not "endorsing" ACT, just saying it seems worthy of futher investigation. The Brooklyn Botanical Garden includes the following: "Beneficial fungi or bacteria can control garden diseases by competing with disease-causing organisms for nutrients and space, by producing antibiotics, by preying on pathogens (a process called hyperparasitism), or by inducing resistance in the host plant. Antagonists do not persist in the environment, are non-toxic, and in some cases are as effective as chemical fungicides. Doesn't specifically mention blackspot, but many other sites do. Maybe if we both look into this we'll find something one way or another. Have a great day! Bill |
Here is a link that might be useful: Brooklyn Botanical Garden
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| I think everybody needs to take a deep breath and have a nice cold beer in a frosted mug. I think most everyone here are really nice people, but I can picture a food fight breaking out at any moment. |
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| Nope-six months for pointing out dual standards-lol The question was can anyone give a worthwhile ``Organic''control for blackspot-answer-no. The sub question became - Is there any proof what so ever that the government approved,over the counter products,when used correctly are harmful to the environment and/or user-answer is NO. For someone to ``cloud the issue''by ignoring the questions and spouting off about their personal beliefs is unfair to those looking for meaningful advice. |
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- Posted by rosariumrob z7 Netherlands (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 17:27
| LOL, these discussions have been going on for years, resurfacing to a higher state of activity now and then. It's nothing new. Only the people progress. It starts when you are new to roses. The roses get BS. You don't want to spray synthetic stuff, because it's scary. So you start an organic routine. It works and you feel superior to all those who spray synthetics. Then the BS hits again. Ouch. So you bring out the big guns and the BS dissappears. Wow. Now you feel superior to all those who tried the organic routine, because spraying synthetics works so much better. Then for some reason you miss a couple of sprays. And the BS comes back with a vengeance and defoliates half your roses. At that moment you realise that spraying is just too much fuss for such lousy plants that roses actually are: plagued by disease and insects, flowers wilt in rain and crisp under heat, the bush form is nothing to write home about, etc. etc. etc. and everytime you think you have everything under control another disaster strikes. So you decide to grow dahlias, daylilies, grasses and the occasional bullet proof Kordes rose and become a truly illuminated gardener... Discussion closed. Rob (hmmm, I can't believe I'm still trying to hybridize roses...) |
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| Several people seem to be miissing the point that there is a reasonably effective organic way to control blackspot in a severe blackspot climate, and I've been doing that for fifteen years. Olga does it, too. You have to be faithful, though. |
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| Reasonable is ambiguous.LOL I have seen zero blackspot this year even though its all around.Since I am doing nothing wrong by spraying-thats reasonable- People who refuse to help control the situation are being unreasonable IMHO. About like going to work with a cold. Typhoid Annie's and Arnie's. Ban them all,better yet mandatory spraying.Spray the roses too while we are at it.Tic[tongue in cheek]Glass in hand-Carlo Rossi -now thats debatable. |
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| From Pete"Nope-six months for pointing out dual standards-lo" OK, just don’t disappear again. Michaelg, how do you do it your way? Tracy |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 18:22
| Michael, can you tell us more about how you use sulfur? Sounds interesting. Bill |
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| I spray Bonide micronized sulfur (costs $2 a pound), 2 TB /gal with 1 TSP dish soap and sometimes seaweed. I spray the susceptible roses once a week, every week, after watering, usually in the morning. I have to avoid applying anything oily or waxy while sulfur is on the foliage. I have had to discard some roses that were too susceptible for my methods, not many. If it got real hot here, which it doesn't, I would skip a spraying. We don't get over 90 very often, but my garden is 5-10 degrees (shade temperature) hotter than the official air temp because it is somewhat enclosed and gets reflection from 140 sq ft of glass. So it is often 90-95 degrees for a while on a summer afternoon. This is around the upper limit for using sulfur. I don't have ethical objections to synthetic fungicides, but it is just more pleasant to spray something you know is safe. Also it's pretty easy to grow roses without synthetic insecticides. I've used lots of stuff and still have some around, but I don't need to use it. Well, I used some old Orthene last month on a houseplant fern that was too big (5 x 6) and dense to treat effectively with oil spray-- that's an example of need-to, more or less. But nothing on the roses beyond soap and oil for some years. There are some more remarks about sulfur higher in the thread and on the Organic Roses FAQ. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright Z10 (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 19:33
| Thank you Michael. Most informative! Cheers, P.S. If you have a chance to evaluate any information on "activated compost tea" I'd like to hear your thoughts. |
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- Posted by bettym_grow zone 5, Mi. (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 20:06
| Hey Bill, I really do think you are awesome for sticking to your guns. We've had some differences in a previous post but I truly respect you. You know how to handle yourself with style & patience. I think all viewpoints should be considered on this forum. It is good to have an open mind & not belittle or degrade people w/ differing viewpoints. If we only had one way of seeing things this would be a terribly boring place to visit. Keep being you Bill:) Betty |
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| william, I really don't want to argue with you, but you did attack me upthread for a lighthearted remark I made in another thread. I don't feel I attacked you, but I am miffed at how you choose to present your 'facts' to me. And most of your 'facts' are mere conjecture that even other posters have disputed. I did say you were turning people off. You, on the other hand, implied that I did not have a 'modicum of understanding' had a 'radical and dangerous uninformed mind' and that I am 'spouting nonsense' and that I 'have no idea what I am talking about'. A bit 'toxic' if you ask me. You said that fungicides damage plants, they do not. I've made it clear to you time and time again on this board that I spray my roses and nothing you will say, no matter what manner you say it, is going to change my mind. So if you don't want to argue, I suggest you simply stop directing any posts to me. |
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| Observation: You can tell when we're all dealing with BS when a discussion that has had several incarnations (or is it intypations) garners this much attention and creates such a disturbance in the rose force. Thanks to all for your suggestions and for others for the entertaining drama. It kept me from thinking about the battle going on in my yard for a bit. Adrian. |
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- Posted by williamcartwright (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 21:44
| I'm more than happy to disengage with you. But please read your own posts and re-think whether calling someone an "alarmist" or "psycho" doesn't constitute a personal attack. You say: "there no evidence that fungicides damage plants orcause fungi. And promoting that idea on a rose forum is misleading". And I patiently try to explain soils that need fungi to be healthy, and point to a horticultural Phd who says: "Fungicides kill all the fungi they encounter. While they can be effective against plant disease, they can destroy beneficial fungi and cause serious problems to plant survival." You respond that I'm "turning people off" and call me a "virulent anti-sprayer" and say that you want to kill all fungus in your soil, "that's what I want them [fungicides] to do" At this point I became less polite in my response to you than I wish I'd been, but I felt provoked and annoyed by your ongoing personal attacks (in this thread and others), and that you patently refuse to accept the fact that beneficial fungus is vital to plant health, ignoring basic soil science, while telling me I'm wrong. Since, as you say, nothing I say "is going to change your mind" I will happily no longer waste my time directing posts you. Please feel free to do the same. Bill
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| Michaelg, thanks for explaining your way to control blackspot. I don’t think sulfur is strong is enough here for me. But there is a limit for me even with using stuff like Banner Maxx. I asked a question about Zephirine Drouhin on the antique rose forum and Olga basically said it will de-foliage. Soil drench is out of the option because of the fish pond. But it’s hard to find no thorn climber like that. Tracy |
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- Posted by maggie_berry z6CT (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 21:55
| Michael, If I have been spraying roses with the ortho products and deer off to the mix,can I switch over to sulfur this year? I concerned about the oil on the leaves you mentioned. Thank you |
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- Posted by quitecontrary 6 (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 22:15
| I'm with rosariumrob! Yes, we have been discussing this topic for years. I did go through gardening "developmental stages" with respect to pesticides. In the beginning, I would panic if I saw any pest damage and run to the store to buy some bottled remedy. I did notice that I was killing more plants of all kinds with pesticides than I was losing to the pests themselves. I then went the organic route. If I wanted to spray something organic on roses, I would probably go back to micronized sulfur. I have always wondered whether it might to useful to mix the sulfur with wilt-pruf. However, that is too much trouble for me now. My disease control program is the shovel. I believe in growing things that are well adapted in my yard. This includes roses. I have grown roses in the northeast and in Florida. Yes, it is harder in Florida. Most roses are not well adapted to Florida. However, the subtropical environment of Florida offers other delightful gardening opportunities. There are even a few roses that are easy to grow on their own roots in central Florida. Cramoisi superieur is one example. I don't think we need to indulge in personal attacks on Garden Web. In fact, they only distract us from the serious topic at hand. There are many unknowns about the effects of garden chemicals. Many consider fungicides to be safer than insecticides. This may not be the case. Much current research investigates chemicals, including fungicides, that may be endocrine disruptors. Those who are interested can google that. I have linked to a summary that may be a useful starting point. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Endocrine Disruptors
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| Sandy808- we should all heed your message to lighten up a bit! Roses are for enjoying and if it becomes a big struggle, it's time to switch roses, move, or start w/ a new plant or hobby. Personally, I find looking at the herbs in my garden relaxing and watching the bird feeder- no BS there or mildew either. Lots of fungus here, big patches on top of some of my mulch. My roses are healthy, so far... If I they got sick, I would use organic methods and if that didn't work, I guess I'd experience the sorrows and joys of shovel pruning for the first time. I don't consider this to be a very good climate or soil for roses, so I am limiting them. Trying to get resistant ones- still looking for a really good list for zone 8a. I hope we can all disagree w/ respect and love. There is too little serenity in the world and flowers ought to increase the serenity, not decrease it. Brandy |
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- Posted by bettym_grow zone 5, Mi. (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 22:32
| Kublakan, Another observation: I've gained 2 pounds from sitting here in front of this computer instead of being out in my garden weeding, pruning,etc... Betty |
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| Yeah Brandy! It's trial and error with finding the right roses. I still think it is far easier growing them in the south than in Upstate NY where I moved from. The winters are hard to deal with up there. Eventually, if you work on it, you can have some pretty decent soil. Use organics and lots of compost, and leave enough room between bushes for good air circulation. At one time everything was planted too close together beacause I wanted to squeeze as many roses in as I could. I've since re-spaced my roses farther apart and have very little disease issues now. I use integrated pest management with the roses that need that and it seems to work well. It's not totally organic, but at least it's minimal chemical use. Most of my roses don't need to be sprayed at all, but I do have about a dozen hybrid teas. I kept only the disease resistant ones, and so far they are beautiful with a minimal spray program. I took the Antique Rose Emporiums' advice and spray only on an "as needed" basis. Some years we are very rainy and humid, which results in lots of blackspot. I find those times make it necessary to be more consistant in the use of fungicides until the weather pattern becomes nicer, at which time I can back off on them. This works for me. It may not work for someone else, and I would be the last person to tell someone else what they should do - other than cover yourself up and don't breathe it in. (And don't get overspray on your birdbaths, fountains, and bird feeders. Cover those up too). When it comes down to it, we all have "custom" gardens. No two are alike, and we have to customize the care they receive. Sandy |
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| Sandy, I would be interested in knowing which HTs are disease-resistant for you. Thanks, |
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| maggie berry-- Deer Off contains whole rotten eggs; the oil in the eggs might or might not be a problem. You would need to do a test spray on a limited area of a few different roses before spraying the whole garden. Wait 10 days for evidence of burn damage. I think there are other products that only use egg whites which might be more compatible with sulfur. Residues of Ortho fungicide and insecticide should not be a problem. palisade-- |
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| Michael, I went back to re-read the thread. Olga didn’t say what she spray with because I asked if I could grow it no spray so I think she meant de-foliage if no spray. Olga are you around ? Even where Florence is, hers grow so big and I don’t want to be on a ladder to spray it. If I can somehow grow it as a 6 ft tall shrub wider is ok I can follow her experience on how to keep it looking full. Tracy |
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| I live in Alabama, just south of Birmingham, where the growing season is very long and the Black Spot pressure is severe. Similiar to Bill, I have observed many local rose growers that spray fungicides plagued by one problem after another. While my garden stays on an even cycle. I am not saying that I do not get blackspot, but that through careful selection of roses and careful maintenance of the soil, I rarely have a rose that is completely defoliated. Usually that is a rose that I get rid of. But I have seen roses improve their immunity with age. But at any given time there are some roses with minimal BS in my garden, especially after the 1st spring flush. Personally, I can live with a few chewed leaves and some black spot. Fungicides kill the benificial soil fungus as well as the 'bad guys'. You guys might be interested in the following blurb on beneficial soil fungus. What are mycorrhizae? More than 90 percent of plant species form a symbiotic arrangement with beneficial soil fungi called mycorrhizal fungi. The roots are colonized by the soil fungus, which attaches to the roots and extends far into the surrounding soil environment (figure 1). The colonized root is called a mycorrhiza. Mycorrhizal fungi are the dominant microbes in undisturbed soils accounting for 60 percent to 80 percent of the microbial biomass. Mycorrhizae are fundamental to plant establishment, supplying the water and nutrients needed for survival and, in exchange, receiving essential sugars and other compounds supplied by the plant. There are basically two broad groups: those forming ectomycorrhizae, so termed because of the external modificationto the root, and those termed arbuscular mycorrhizae (also termed endomycorrhizae), the name coming from the structure formed within the root cells. Unlike the ectomycorrhizae, no external modification of the root accompanies arbuscular mycorrhizae. |
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| Tracy, Olga sprays with sulfur, but she tries some roses out as no-spray candidates and she has many no-spray roses, mostly gallicas, albas, etc, I believe. I think your interpretation is probably correct, defoliation without spray. As you say, it is a nuisance spraying any really large plant. My ZD grew to 10 x 10' with dozens of basal canes, and I got tired of spraying her, since a pretty thorough job was needed to keep her looking good. Renee is a thornless climber that is no-spray in some gardens. Heritage, a large nearly thornless shrub, needs much less spraying than ZD. |
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| Michael, thanks a lot. I will look up Renee and Heritage. Tracy |
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| Some let the problem control them by limiting their choices and accepting unsightly plants.Rationalizing Others prefer to control the problem and enjoy beautiful bushes of their choosing.Rationalizing However I sincerely doubt that all the home rose growers put together are threatening the fungi of the world.lol |
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| Renee needs no spraying in my garden, but she's far from thornless. FEW thorns, and they're not HUGE, but they will let you know they're there if you get too close. Same for Climbing Pinkie, which I've also seen described here as thornless. Nevertheless, I LOVE both of them. Barbara |
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| I haven't raised roses. I did have black spot on my green peppers this year. What worked most effectively for me was making a paste from fresh worm castings and dechlorinated water, and applying it directly to the affected areas of the plant. I re-applied it every other day for a week, and all black spots faded and didn't come back. I don't know whether this would have worked as well with commercial, packaged wormcastings; I used mine straight out of the bin. |
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| So my question is what can I use to spray that will not harm my dog or cats as they wander through my rose beds? |
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| Cindy, I have cats that go in my flower beds. I use the Bayer spray. I simply don't have them outside when I spray, and once it's dry, it can't transfer to them. Also, did you know that Immidicloripid (insecticide) is the active ingredient in flea treatment? And that Sevin can also be used directly on cats and dogs to kill fleas (in the right concentration of course). |
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- Posted by anne_horton 6b NJ (My Page) on Mon, Jun 9, 08 at 10:10
| Michael - Could you please post the exact recipe you use for your spray- i.e. what kind of seaweed (liquid???) do you use? |
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| Well, I love my roses-all 150 of them, but in the heat of the spring/summer-the mosquitoes get outrageous in my area so they really have to fend for themselves when it gets warmer. The most I've ever sprayed is the cornell formula, and even then, not regularly. Most of my Austin roses do pretty well as do my OGRs, teas and KOs, but BS is a fact of life here in the south. Living in GA and trying to grow hybrid teas would be a never ending nightmare. None of my roses have been completely defoliated from my benign neglect, but I also like a cottage garden style, so there other lovely plants to cover up unsightly knees. In my yard, only the strong survive LOL |
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| All I can say to you is: "Lots of luck!" This is one problem that cannot be handled organically. The chemical way IS the ONLY way. But believe what you choose. Believe me, if organics worked on BS, we would all be using it. We aren't, and you will not be successful with it either. |
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- Posted by henry_kuska z5 OH (kuska@neo.rr.com) on Fri, Jan 16, 09 at 16:08
| Regarding statements of the type: "This is one problem that cannot be handled organically. The chemical way IS the ONLY way." The original question was from someone in zone 6. Yet, people in much warmer zones apparently feel that only their experience is applicable. I do not follow this logic. ------------------------------ http://www.ecostudies.org/FTGG/FTGG-12-13-04.html |
Here is a link that might be useful: organic research report
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- Posted by henry_kuska z5 OH (kuska@neo.rr.com) on Fri, Jan 16, 09 at 18:20
| The link below gives the abstract of a recent biocontrol research paper: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a783868824~db=all~order=page Unfortunately in the abstract they did not give numbers. In the full paper they summarise in their Figure 9 their results 75 days after spraying the rose "Edward". The no spray control had a "percent disease index of about 65, the chemical spray control (using Tridemorph) had an index of about 35, Pseudomonas fluoresens treatment had an index of about 45 and Trichoderma viride treatment had an index of about 40. |
Here is a link that might be useful: recent biocontrol research
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| I grow blackspot resistant roses, and let it go at that. I gave up any desire to spray a long time ago. Our summers are too darn hot to deal with it, and I also want to minimize my chemical exposure. There are many teas and chinas that I grow no-spray that keep beautiful foliage, bloom exceptionally well, and thrive. They are beautiful garden plants. Most hybrid teas, however, would be a disaster here without being sprayed. They are beautiful, but I can't deal with the heavy care routine that is involved with them, in Florida. In other areas of the country, hybrid teas stay very healthy on their own. The best way to deal with blackspot is to grow blackspot resistant roses for your own particular area, if you want to grow roses organically. Otherwise, you will need to have at least a minimal spray routine to keep them looking decent. Only you can decide. Sandy |
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| 1) Select varieties that are noted for their health in your specific region. Recommendations from local societies and independent growers will be useful in making your selections. If you insist on selecting from the modern Hybrid Tea and Floribunda classes, you can be fairly certain that disease issues will continue to plague you in a fungicide free garden. Sad but true. 2) Many cultivars will gradually build up resistance to disease as they mature. I have found that numerous cultivars in my garden which had to be sprayed in their first three years in the garden have "acquired" resistance to fungal diseases now that they are 7 to 10 years old. |
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| I suppose I feel fortunate not to have that big of a bs problem despite what I hear from those around me. I also have high humidity, etc. I have roses in every class and have never chose or disregarded a rose because of bs or mildew. I don't spray. I only had 1 rose defoliate late last summer, but it grew a new full set of leaves by early fall and never got any more bs, despite others getting a small dose, it was baron girod (sp.). Mine are mainly grown in the lawn or pasture with grass. I had 2 r. Wichuranas, one I had to search for in the tall grass that was totally bs free, while the one with more exposure had a little bs. I quit mulching also as most just blew away. The ht's I planted didn't fare any worse than any of the others. The ht's are mainly the older ones, no moderns. We'll see next year, as I planted more ht's and floribundas, many pernetian style,this fall. I noticed many of these had comments that they do better in a hot,dry climate, LOL! |
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| None of the organic blackspot remedies seem to work here in Louisiana. I try to plant blackspot resistant roses and antiques that bounce back from leaf loss. Mildew is only a problem on cold dry nights and in Louisiana it usually rains a lot in the winter and spring. I agree that knockouts and their rivals and antiques appropriate for my climate are the way to go for me. |
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| Actually the best way to deal with blackspot may be growing your roses in inland Southern California. No blackspot there. Other growing challenges, yes indeed, but blackspot isn't one of them. |
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| Every region has roses that do very, very well, and with only minimal disease issues, if any at all. I truly believe, based on my own personal experience, that there are lots of beautiful roses that can be grown no spray. However, that doesn't mean that you can grow EVERY rose your heart may desire, in a no spray or blackspot free way. When any of us wants to grow a particular class of roses that have never been able to adapt to our individual unique climate, then disease happens. What does great for me won't necessarily do well for someone in N.Y. What stays healthy in California may or may not stay healthy in Florida. I quit fighting nature and just roll with what does well without a fight here, and enjoy looking at and hearing about other types of roses when I travel. That's me. Other people enjoy more of a challange in their gardening. I have grown a few hybrid teas no spray. They do get some blackspot and defoliate to some degree, but as long as the majority of the time they do well, they are welcome in my garden. So far Tiffany and Queen Elizabeth are still welcome. I pick off their cruddy leaves. As a whole though, hybrid teas need some spraying in Florida. None of the chinas do, or most of the old teas. Sandy |
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- Posted by the_gurgler 7 (My Page) on Wed, Feb 4, 09 at 13:31
| I am also working on some black spot troubles with my roses. Has anyone tried Neem based sprays? It does have anti-fungal properties as I have used it to get rid of ring worm in the past. Perhaps I shall run my own experiment with a Neem spray. My only reluctance would be that Neem will harm your beneficial insects, but timing might help with that. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Organix Neem Products
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- Posted by henry_kuska z5 OH (kuska@neo.rr.com) on Wed, Feb 4, 09 at 15:36
| I tried mixing Neem with Wilt-Pruf. In limited testing, I thought it actually stopped existing blackspot. |
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- Posted by avalon2007 10a (My Page) on Fri, Feb 6, 09 at 23:17
| Perhaps fungicides kill the commencial fungus which lives on the roots of some plants and trees. Various plants and trees are utterly reliant on this fungus to obtain nutrients from the soil. If the fungus dies, so does the plant. I don't know if roses have beneficial root fungus, but if they do, fungicide application would cause gradual decline and death. I don't spray. I select disease-resistant plants and try to keep them watered, mulched and fed so that they can fight off the fungus naturally. I make sure that they get enough sun so that the UV will kill the fungus on the leaves. I have also read that watering roses in the evening and splashing water on the leaves can encourage black spot, especially water that has splashed up from the ground onto the plant. Has anyone had success with baking soda and water spray for BS? The effects of this spray on the surrounding soil could be easily counteracted by any acidic fertilizer or organic soil amendment. good luck and please keep the forum cordial. thanks, Avalon |
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| "I don't know if roses have beneficial root fungus, but if they do, fungicide application would cause gradual decline and death." If this were true, thousands of Rose growers who spray consistently, every year, would be struggling to keep up with replacing an every growing list of dying specimens. We know this not to be the case. |
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- Posted by avalon2007 10a (My Page) on Sat, Feb 7, 09 at 21:33
| Please allow me to amend my previous statement: "I don't know if roses have beneficial root fungus, but if they do, fungicide application would cause gradual decline and death" to "...MIGHT cause gradual decline and death, and would certainly negatively affect the health of the plant." The fungicide would be unlikely to irradicate all of the beneficial fungus population, just reduce it. I'm sure that rose growers who spray are not replacing their roses all the time, but I do get the impression that many people are giving up on certain varieties because they are so susceptible to BS. I don't think that the possibility of fungicide interfering with the over-all health of the plant can be ruled out until it has been conclusively proven by reproducible research on rose mycorrhizal fungi that roses don't have comensal fungus. Ignorant newbie question: Can bs actually kill a rose? I don't have much experience with alot of blackspot on otherwise healthy roses. The roses in my area should be grafted on Fortuniana. In the past, I have had roses on Dr. Huey that succumbed to blackspot so badly that I didn't know if it was the rootstock failure or the BS or the combination of the two that killed the plant. I have some of the same varieties now on Fortuniana and they don't have nearly the amount of blackspot that the Dr. Huey's had. My point is that if the roots are healthy, the plant will be able to fend off disease more easily. IF |
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- Posted by henry_kuska z5 OH (kuska@neo.rr.com) on Sat, Feb 7, 09 at 22:30
| If you do not have the natural mycorrhizal fungi in the soil, it appears that high phosphorus can substitute, see: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119491079/abstract? |
Here is a link that might be useful: reference
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| avalon, your post doesn't make sense. People are giving up on BS prone roses because they get BS and don't want to spray, not be cause the roses are dying because people are spraying fungicides. I spray my roses regularly and they are thriving. No problems with roots or any growth. In fact, they do better when sprayed because they don't lose leaves. If I spray the leaves, that isn't going to have a big effect on the fungus in the soil. I've had blackspot on all my roses, every kind. I've even seen black spot on neighbors knock out roses. IMO/E it has less to do with the health and type of rose than the climate conditions of where the roses are being grown. I've had years where I have had little to no black spot and years where no matter what I do every rose has black spot. Same roses, same yard, different weather conditions. I don't think black spot alone will kill a rose, but it will weaken it so that it will not thrive or bloom and then can be subject to other damage. |
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- Posted by avalon2007 (My Page) on Sun, Feb 8, 09 at 20:26
| Questions for Buford: How old is your oldest rose plant? Would you say that your rose plants have had their lives extended by spraying? Have any of your roses ever died from an unexplained cause? Have you ever given up on a particular rose because of BS even though you spray? Also, what kind of spray do you use? (Perhaps you mentioned this in a previous post that I haven't read yet, so please don't be annoyed if I'm asking you to repeat yourself. Also, please don't be offended by the series of questions - I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I'm actually trying to learn.) It is possible that the people who are spraying all the time are simply keeping the roses that can withstand the climate, soil and the constant spraying. It may also be possible that the difference between one fungicide and another may be enough to provide one person with evidence that spraying works, while someone else with a different climate and soil type may find that particular fungicide to be ineffective or even harmful. I know for a fact that some fungicides can damage plants, even when applied as directed. I just don't know much about fungicides on roses. avalon |
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- Posted by henry_kuska z5 OH (kuska@neo.rr.com) on Sun, Feb 8, 09 at 21:15
| See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17033931 and http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WDM-4T9JWDV-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=89e05e399a266e230d935bb7d580aec0 and http://md1.csa.com/partners/viewrecord.php?requester=gs&collection=ENV&recid=6610374&q=allintitle%3A+roses&uid=789871398&setcookie=yes The following is part of the abstract: "Although symptoms of black spot on roses in the Bayer All-in-One treatment was significantly less than those in the controls, the plants were stunted and had significantly smaller flowers than roses within other treatments." |
Here is a link that might be useful: convience link for last abstract
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| Currently I use Bayer Advanced disease control. Prior to that I used Daconil. With Daconil, I had to spray every one or two weeks. With the Bayer, I can spray every 3-4 weeks. I haven't noticed any damage to the plants, but I use the proper concentration and spray early in the AM and make sure the roses are hydrated before spraying. Any chemical can be damaging if not used properly. I haven't noticed any play suffering because of spray, quite the opposite. I have a couple of roses that did not do well until I started spraying regularly. Peace and Double Delight are two examples. On Peace, I did not get more than a handful of blooms on it until I sprayed regularly. Most of my roses are 7 years old and under, since that's when I first started growing them. I've lost a few to drought conditions (mostly newly planted roses that didn't make it). I believe I had a few that had RRD and I did take them out and dispose of them. It's possible at some point I would replace some roses that are susceptible to BS, but frankly I don't ever envision me having a no spray garden here, so since I spray, I can grow even BS prone roses (such as Peace). Again, the spray goes on the leaves and maybe the top layer of mulch, so I don't think it would penetrate the soil in any concentration to eliminate all the good fungus down there. I use mostly organic fertilizers and believe I have fairly healthy soil. |
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- Posted by avalon2007 (My Page) on Thu, Feb 12, 09 at 6:46
| Hi Buford, Thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions. I'm going to try to avoid commercial fungicides for now, partially because the previous owners of our property already poisoned the soil with Round -up. They really used way too much of it. Some of our fruit trees are actually deformed because of over-application, and we had no earthworms. I had to re-introduce them in the yard. In the future, if I do use fungicide, I will try a very light application of Bayer. Thanks again, Avalon |
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