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ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

Posted by nanito 5 (My Page) on
Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 13:28

My name is Mariano Saviello, from Buenos Aires (Argentina). In this occasion I have a white blend rose I would love to identify. It is pretty similar to those from the “Radiance”group, but scentless and very, very thorny.
Some years ago, Bruna Talodini, a retired professor of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology from Italy who is pretty interested in roses and in their history, was trying to find some information on the firm Gaetano Bonfiglioli e figlio, a breeder/nursery who worked in Bologna (the town where he lives in Italy) in XIX-XX century. Among his production there are “Variegata di Bologna”, “Clementina Carbonieri”, “Garisenda” and other lost or almost lost roses. Going through papers at the Camera di Commercio of Bologna he managed to find the story of the firm and, interestingly, he found that it had commercial interests in South America, in particular in Argentina. From 1920 to 1937 Enrico Bonfiglioli and many of his staff went here many times.
So it may well be that, besides a rose from french nurseries, in Argentina there might be also roses from Bonfiglioli, possibly lost roses of this firm. So this could be another research line to take into account, but I am really confused and it has been many years and I still cannot identify it properly.

IDENTIFICATION CARD

PLANT

-Type: Bush (it looks like an Hybrid Perpetual, similar to “Frau Karl Druschki” with Light pink buds and lack of scent, but it flowers does not agree with the white bright white flowers of the "Frau Kart Druschki" seen in the "Help Me Find" web site.

-Size: Up to 6.56”(2.00 mt) tall and 3.28”(1.00 mt) wide.

-Stems: tic, strong, rigid. The new stems have a characteristic redish colouring.

-Habit: Tall and dense bush, very very thorny.

FOLIAGE

-Shape:-

-Color: Dark green, dull (not glossy).

-Size: Big.

FLOWERS

-Features of the bud: Small light pink buds. As the buds open you can see its conic centre Light pink blended that never (or hardly ever) opens completely.

-Diameter: 4.72" x 4.72" (12 cm x 12 cm). No simmetry.

-Flower: Big, no symmetry. Very similar in appearance to varieties like "Red Radiance" or "Pink Radiance", but has no scent.

-How does it bloom?: Solitary and in posies of up to 3-4 flowers.

-How many times does it flower?: Taking into account that the rose grows in a neighboring old garden I do not have the exact information, but it has a really abundant and long lasting blooming in the fall season.

-Number of petals and shape: 36 petals.

-Stamen Yes/ No: It is impossible to apreciate them because the flower never opens completely.
- Color: White blend. Light pink centre.

-Lenght of the flower: High.

-Fragance: None to mild fragrance.

-Resistance: It seems to be a very vigorous and healthy cultivar.

THANKS in advance for your time! Mariano.

White blend rose ID


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

You might have something VERY rare. While looking through your pictures, everything about it was saying Hybrid Perpetual. It might be an early Hybrid Tea from Italy. Whatever it is, take care of it. See if you can take some cuttings and root them up.


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

Hi, Mariano! Ken has given some good ideas on classification.

I posted the information on the Antique Roses forum (link below), so maybe between the two forums someone will recognize her.

-- Janene

Here is a link that might be useful: Antique Roses forum post


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

Mariano, I've not recognized "her", but I do notice a distinct resemblance to a "him". . . I agree with Ken that your rose is either a Hybrid Perpetual or an early Hybrid Tea not far removed from an HP ancestor.

There are elements of your photos and detailed description that lead me to wonder if the rose in question might be the very early HT 'Captain Christy' -- elements such as: the plump, rounded buds that show deceptively vibrant color as the calyx opens and the sepals reflex; the delicate pink color blending to white; the cupped blooms that may eventually become quite flat, but often fail to open fully; the dense muddling of petals at the center of the open bloom; the very faint fragrance; the shape and color of both the prickles (which are numerous), and the foliage. More than one early source describes Captain Christy's foliage as resembling that of Mahonia -- a dark green, almost leathery look that appears in several of your photos (#35, for example).

Your remarks concerning the autumn bloom of the rose in your neighbor's garden are especially significant. It is characteristic of 'Captain Christy', in almost all locations, to produce remarkably abundant autumn flushes. The spring flush is good and the rose repeats reasonably well through the summer, but it's in the autumn that CC is almost invariably at it's best. Where the rose grows well, one might be tempted to plant CC in multiples simply for that reason.

There exists documented evidence that 'Captain Christy' was being grown in South America fairly early in the 20th century. The 1928 American Rose Annual (published by the American Rose Society) contains an article titled "Roses in Brazil" by Mrs Paul C. Schilling, in which 'Captain Christy' is identified as being among the finest of roses grown in Brazilian gardens.

In the same article, Mrs Schilling again gives high praise to CC (albeit somewhat obliquely) when she discusses 'Souvenir de Fausto Cardoso', a Hybrid Perpetual hybridized in Brazil. Of that rose she states, "It is finer than 'Captain Christy', WHICH IS SAYING A LOT!" (my emphasis). (It would be interesting to know if SdFC exists today in South American gardens. Apparently it was never introduced to the U.S.)

The rose you hold in question certainly may not be CC, but I think there's a good chance that it is. Others here who have grown the rose may be able to provide evidence to the contrary. If that's the case, we may all learn something and the mystery will persist (not a bad thing) . . .

Mariano, is my recollection correct that you posted here several years ago regarding efforts to reconstruct your grandfather's garden? At the time, I think you were searching for several older HTs -- 'Dr Debat' and 'Chantré' being two of them, right? If so, I'm hoping you have located them. I'm quite certain it was you who arranged to have photographs of the elusive 'Chantré' (sport parent of 'Nantucket') posted -- at long last -- on HMF. Thank you for that!

This post was edited by jaxondel on Mon, Apr 22, 13 at 10:02


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

@Ken THANK YOU very much for your words!

@Petaloid, I had already posted in the "Antique Rose" and in "Name that Rose" Forums. Hope we have some news soon! :)

@Jaxondel I have just sent you a private message regarding your post.

Thanks to all and stay in touch!
Mariano


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

@JAXONDEL: I could not send you a private message, but will write it here anyway. If you are interested, please send me an e-mail to stay in touch.

First of all thank you so much for your detailed reply in the Forum. It was absolutely interesting reading what you write, although I must confirm that the rose I am trying to ID is not ‘Captain Christy’. This means that we still have to research about its identity, but, on the other hand, I just LOVE research! : )
Checking the web of “Vintage Garden-Antique and Extraordinary Roses”, I paid special attention to HP ‘Clio’ and another HP I cannot recall right now (cause I am at the office and do not have my notes); but no one of these fits completely well with my rose. I also post my message in Peter Beales’s Forum with no replies, so I am thinking about sending the pictures to someone in “Vintage Gardens” or to Fabien Duchers, in England.

In reference to your question, YES! I am the one that post the pictures of ‘Chantre’ in HMF and also received some cuttings but they did not survived, unfortunately (they arrived from the Nothern Hemisphere and it was very hot when I received them). What’s more, I have looking in the forum last weekend for the message where someone (maybe you) asked about ‘Nantucket’-the same message I replied years ago-because I wanted to contact the person that was interested in ‘Chantre`, since there are not many people that know this cultivar, but it seems like if the message was deleted. And, as well as this, I am also the same guy who wanted to reconstruct my grandfather’s garden (amazing memory!!!). Among the roses I wanted to get, three of the most valuable were ‘Chantre’, itself, ‘Korder Perfecta Superior’ and Dr. Debat but I could not get any of them yet! :(

Well, all by now. I send you my personal e-mail since I would like to stay in touch with you more often, if you are interested: mariano_saviello83@yahoo.com.ar.

Once we stay in touch I will send you the link of another Picassa album, with a very interesting red HT we also grow, which is still unknown. We assume it should be very special since many rose growers have offered good money to get it, but none of them wanted to reveal its name! ;)


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

@Jaxondel: I was wondering if you can contact me privately to mariano_saviello83 [at] yahoo [dot] com [dot] ar.

I have some news regarding this old white blend rose! ;)
Big hugs from Buenos Aires!.

Mariano


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

Hi everyone! I was (still) searching some clues about my (still) unidentified HT and found in HMF some pictures of a lady from Australia growing an extremely similar rose.

As I have once said, one of my first research lines when I started this long identification process was the 'Radiance' group, despite the roses within this "group" are strongly scented and my rose is not. But I have just found some pictures of 'Mrs. Charles J. Bell' (aka 'Pink-Shell Radiance') from Mrs. patricia Roetley (Australia), that match perfectly with the my plant.

Does anyone have some reference regarding this sport of 'Radiance'??? In the "References" section of the 'Mrs. Charles J. Bell' HMF sheet, there is not information regarding its scent. Could a sport of a scented rose be completely scentless???

My warmest greetings from a mild winter in BA!
Mariano (mariano_saviello83@yahoo.com.ar)


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

Mariano,

From what I have seen, it is not uncommon for sports to lack the fragrance producing abilities of their parent plants. 'Maman Cochet' and its sport 'Niles Cochet' are a good example. Niles is a sport of Maman, but is listed as less fragrant.

Best of luck in your endeavors!

Josh


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

Thank you Josh! Anyway, it seems that the rose is not MCJB :(
Greetings from BA!


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

To me it looks like a white version of the old HT Madame Caroline Testout. Look at MCT for just the shape of the blossoms, and how they open. Perhaps it had a white sport, or descendent?

Jackie


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

Dear Jaxondel, Jackie and esteemed members,

After more than 5 years, and as Jackie have said, I am pretty sure that the pink blend rose is the white sport of “Madame Caroline Testout”, HT “Admiral Duwey” (1899). Although I have just received some pictures from the Sangerhausen, they were enough for me to identify my unknown rose as this old “Madame Caroline Testout” white sport.

I would possibly discard some other related roses, such as “Frau Dr. Krüger” since it has golden-yellow undertones, borne mostly solitary and occasional repeat later in the season. My rose does not have golden-yellow undertones, usually blooms in clusters and has a profuse fall bloom. HT “Grossherzogin Victoria Melitta” has white or white blend flowers with a yellow center and a strong fragrance, while the unknown rose has not any yellow coloring and none to mild fragrance. “Mme Gustave Metz” could have been another possibility but it is too pink, at least in my humble opinion. Furthermore, it has a long pointed form while the unknown rose is more globular. “La Favourite” was also a globular HP, related with “Mme. Caroline Testout” and its descendants, with globular form and it is a good fall bloomer (like my rose), but it has a deep rose color that turns soft pink as the rose ages.

Having said that, I am quite sure that the found rose from that old garden in BA is HT “Admiral Duwey” (John H. Taylor, 1899), although some more pictures would help me to confirm this properly. Any contribution would be highly appreciated.

Greetings from Buenos Aires!
Mariano


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

Mariano - that's great! I have MCT, and now I definitely need to have Admiral Dewey (famous US Admiral at head of the "Great White Fleet" in the 1890s war with Spain, which makes sense with the date of 1899).

I never knew that MCT had a white sport - I learn new things every day on this forum!

Jackie


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

Thank you so much Jackie! It was you who first suggested a white sport of MCT. I am so happy now, after more than 5 years I could finally name this old HT!.

Moreover, I found another plant of AD just one block away from that old house and I am planning to get some cuttings in a few months. Once I make some plants on its own roots I can send you some cuttings, if you are interested.

Greetings from BA! :)

Mariano


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RE: ID of White Blend Rose from Argentina

That would be great, except that I do not think it is legal to import plant material without all sorts of licenses, and quaranteens, etc. Also the State of California has even more stringent rules than the US does (to protect the agricultural crops).

Between my neighbor and I, we have 5 plants of MCT which were rooted from a 70-80 year old plant in her garden, so we will just have to keep an eye on all of them, and hope that one of them throws off this sport. Not very likely, but a fun thing to watch for.

Jackie


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