Return to the Roses Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

Posted by Sara-Ann z6b OK (My Page) on
Fri, Apr 11, 14 at 17:15

Excuse my excitement! I'm getting quite a few buds on my old garden roses - Mme Isaac Pereire, Zephirine Drouhin, Reine des Violettes and Rose De Rescht. With the exception of Rose de Rescht, they barely bloomed last year. They all are very healthy looking, but I still wasn't sure what to expect, but looks like they are all going to have quite a few blooms, I am pleased. These all came from Roses Unlimited and now I wish I had placed another order of these types of roses from them. I'm not sure how well they will repeat, but right now I'm happy with a decent spring flush, until they become more established.


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

I hope you share some beautiful pics when they bloom. It's exciting to finally get blooms after watching them grow. My SDLM just gave me her first bloom and the it was worth the wait!


 o
RE: Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

Thank you Boncrow, I'll definitely share pictures


 o
RE: Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

I'm not sure what an old garden rose is. My definition is anything that isn't a modern HT, floribunda, or Grandiflora.

Using that definition, Moonlight (HM) is in bloom, duchesse de brubant has a dozen buds and I'm hoping that my deer defense system will produce some beautiful blooms. Buff Beauty has a few buds and is caged. An I forgot (looks like madame isaac pereire) has about a dozen buds. It is staked to get the buds out of deer range. I have another mystery with buds that is also staked and I might get some blooms so I can identify it. I transplanted RDV to the slope and caged it. It has nice foliage, not a lot of growth and no buds. I'm hoping for the best.


 o
RE: Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Sat, Apr 12, 14 at 18:05

Congrats! I'm jealous that you have buds already. I haven't even started pruning here because nothing is growing yet.

Steve, I think you have the hang of it. OGRs are more class specific than date. HTs, floris, minis and such would be mostly classed as moderns. OGRs would be more in line with hybrid perpetuals, rugosas, burbons and... you get the picture. There are even some very recent releases, like some of Paul Barden's roses, that are called OGRs because of the class they are in. So it has nothing to do with when they were introduced really.


 o
Russelliana - Hybrid Multiflora

Seil, when I think of old garden roses, I think of HP, Gallica, bourbon, China. Not sure about hybrid musk, tea,


 o
RE: Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Sat, Apr 12, 14 at 21:11

Yes, hybrid musks, teas, noisettes, and quite a few other classes would be considered OGRs.


 o
RE: Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

Seil - I certainly hope spring begins soon for you, the waiting can be difficult. I do feel for those of you who are having to wait so long. Steve - Sounds like you are getting lots of blooms. I think Seil is correct about which ones are OGRs.


 o
RE: Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

Techically, Hybrid Musks are not OGRs. Neither are Wichuriana ramblers, for example. From a gardening standpoint, though, I think they belong with the OGRs. The distinction in my eyes is between roses that are grown primarily for their flowers--HTs, Floribundas, Minis?--and those are also valued as garden shrubs, the OGRs, HMs, Polyanthas, ramblers, species, a good scattering of modern shrubs, for example the Kordes Fruehling- series. The DA roses are an attempt, a pretty good attempt, to develop shrub roses with flowers that have the best qualities of old and modern roses, with old rose form. You'll see this practical distinction in what roses are mainly discussed in the Antique Rose forum and the Rose forum, though no one is rigid about it: the roses-as-shrubs are mainly discussed in the Antique Rose forum, the roses-grown-for-their-flowers predominate on Roses.
Oh...the definition. OGRs are defined as roses belonging to classes that were in existence before the development of the Hybrid Teas, conventionally dated to the 1860s (I forget the exact year). Roses bred after that date, but still belonging to one of the OGR classes, are still classed as OGRs, even though they may be of later date than some modern roses. For example, 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner', a Polyantha, was bred in 1880, while 'Mme. Antoine Mari', a Tea, was introduced in 1900. 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner' is classified as a modern rose, while 'Mme. Antoine Mari', a later rose, is classified as an OGR. Again, though, people tend to think of MCB as an old rose, because of its age and its characteristics.
Melissa
P.S. My list of classes was far from comprehensive. OGR classes: Gallica, Damask, Alba, Moss, Centifolia, China, Bourbon, Tea, Hybrid Perpetual, Noisette. Modern classes: Hybrid Teas, Polyanthas, Floribundas, Miniatures, Hybrid Musks, Rugosas (I don't know if they have a formal class of their own). This is still an incomplete list. A fair number of roses are of uncertain classification, and ramblers, for example, have varied origins, and I don't know how they're classified. In any case--I repeat--a rose's classification as OGR or modern doesn't say anything definitive about how or whether it should be used in the garden, or even necessarily about how old it is, except that modern roses have been bred sometime after 1860. Which can still be quite old.

This post was edited by melissa_thefarm on Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 5:13


 o
RE: Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 12:29

It may be 1867, the introduction of the rose La France, Melissa, since that's the year they use in ARS competitions to distinguish between Dowager and Victorian awards. Thanks for the more comprehensive list of classes. I tried to figure them all out once because I wanted to exhibit a newly introduced rose that is in an OGR class and didn't know if it would qualify for Victorian or Dowager or if it had to go in the Shrub catagory because of it's new intro date. In the end they said it could go in Victorian because of it's classification but not Dowager because it was introduced after 1867. It's complicated since some of the classes also have sub classes within them as well. I never did come up with a complete list, lol. Your explanation that it has to do with the date the CLASS was introduce and not the date the VARIETY was introduced is very clear.


 o
RE: Pleased with my Old Garden Roses

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 12:30

It may be 1867, the introduction of the rose La France, Melissa, since that's the year they use in ARS competitions to distinguish between Dowager and Victorian awards. Thanks for the more comprehensive list of classes. I tried to figure them all out once because I wanted to exhibit a newly introduced rose that is in an OGR class and didn't know if it would qualify for Victorian or Dowager or if it had to go in the Shrub catagory because of it's new intro date. In the end they said it could go in Victorian because of it's classification but not Dowager because it was introduced after 1867. It's complicated since some of the classes also have sub classes within them as well. I never did come up with a complete list, lol. Your explanation that it has to do with the date the CLASS was introduce and not the date the VARIETY was introduced is very clear.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Roses Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here