I can second your experiment. I also found that a lot of roses do not do well own root in my soil. The issue is not that they are slow to establish, the issue for me is that, with few exceptions, they grow "backward". I got, again with few exceptions, very good, healthy looking, often quite big plants from very respectable own root nurseries, and in two years these roses has become one cane wonders sitting there and doing nothing, or even worse, they die. I repeat, I buy from reputable nurseries and in most cases they send very nice plants and I still end up with under-performing or dead plants. I have no idea why. In my case the problem is not confined to HTs, but I lost floribundas, Austins, Bourbons and so forth. Strangely the only exception is Chamblee's - I have never lost a plant I got from them.

It is very discouraging because own roots roses cost, at least up to this year, more than grafted plants and the shipping is also more expensive.

I still order own roots since a lot of roses I want is/are not available grafted but by now I am not confident at all that those plants will mature into nice bushes in my yard.

One point of departure from your experience is that Dr. Huey does not do well in my soil at all. I plant roses grafted on dr. Huey deep in the hope that the rose will go own root.

My preference is multiflora grafted plants; they do extremely well provided I get a healthy plant to begin with.

I have had no problems growing "own root". last year I pruchased 6 Peter Beales roses all grow on own root from Ashdown Roses. Shipping costs have not been an issue since they now ship "potless". I start them in small pots and over the winter I repotted them in larger pots and they look fantastic.

My experience with grafted vs ungrafted roses (mine are all moderns-no OGRs)has lead me to a similar conclusion on the older HT's, Floribundas etc.-90% of them do better grafted (this is my experience and is dependent on my climate and my soil type and the varieties I've grown-your mileage may vary)..........However J&P's "new generation" roses interest me. I don't know how J&P decides which new varieties to sell own root and which not. Do they test them as own root first? Then the weaklings are not offered own root, just grafted? Would multiflora rootstock take the poor drainage of crummy clay soil better then own root? Sounds logical but I haven't conducted any tests to prove that one way or the other.

right now, has anybody in less temperate climes done this experiment? I am talking zone 4-6. This may well shape up to be a VERY enlightening discussion if different zones can chip in.

I did just want to clarify I AM an own-root rose fan, but just not for many of the hybrid teas and floribundas. My OGRs, Bucks, and newer, shrub roses do great on own-roots. I just don't have luck growing classic hybrid teas on their own roots.

As far as Jackson and Perkin and their new generation roses, I think they still may be experimenting. My original Rio Samba was grafted and thrived. My second one was new generation and was a dud. Now, I see that they are only offering Rio Samba grafted again. Maybe they got feedback it didn't do well as an own-root.

Some other roses I grow on their own-roots that don't thrive are Lemon Spice, Angel Face and Gold Glow.

Some of my own-roots that are great are Star of the Nile, Love Song, Jacqueline du Pre, Radio Times and Sharifa Asma.

I've grown Tamora on both own-root and root stock and definitely did better for me grafted.

Like others mentioned I only buy own-roots from very reputable sellers like Roses Unlimited, Heirloom, etc.

Scott

Scott, my experience is almost exactly the same as yours, except for Dr. Huey. The roses that I have from Carlton (now closed) on Manetti rootstock are great. HTs and 1 Grandiflora, all are stars. I am not sure, but the ones from Wayside long ago (15 years) might have also been on Manetti.

Dr. Huey is OK, some plants have been gangbusters, most are just meh.

Own root HTs are a total bust. I have three, including PJPII, and none of them have taken off. Sengodea, in the ground for two years, still looks like a first-year maiden. Own root minis, mini-floras are great (for the most part) and floribundas and OGRs have been a mixed bag.

R. multiflora rootstock floribundas, polyanthas, shrubs and HTs are great. It amazes me to get a maiden from Wisconsin Roses, and to see that grow into a full-blown, mature, plant in 3 years. The plants from Palatine out grew their pots the first season. Pickering plants took a little longer, but now they too are garden-eaters.

My oldest rose is Lagerfeld, boxed, on Dr. Huey, going into its 16th season in the ground. My largest rose is Moonstone, also on Dr. Huey (but I am replacing it this year).

you're right triple b, I pretty much need own root. With grafted, many times I get a different rose after the first winter. If it comes back at all. Makes it pretty hard to get large rose bushes quickly.

Hi Scott, I still want to try a rose on Fortuania (sp) to see how it would do here. I prefer own root but I agree that some of the moderns do better grafted.
Good to see you here.

Carla

Scott, I have Rio Samba, ownroot, from Chamblee's that has done extremely well here. Grabs a lot of attention from visitors..it's my husband's fav. Veteran's Honor, Moonstone, Sunset Celebration, ToR, Love, Ole', Chrysler Imperial and many others have actually outperformed their grafted counterparts (Dr. Huey here). I've swung to more ownroot in many of the moderns just because they make better looking bushes in the garden. Some will not thrive on their own roots (Oklahoma is one) but I've found most will. Most of our roses are in raised beds mixed with native acidic soil.

Just my limited experience, but Tiffany, Chrysler Imperial, and Honey Perfume, all bought grafted, have now gone ownroot and are better than ever in my slightly alkaline clay soil.

First, from very old rose books: there are roses that were said to need to be repropagated every three years or so. And the Rosarium at Sangerhausen does repropagate large parts of their collection every three years. (This to me would take the fun out of roses.)
There were also major issues with which of multiple rootstocks were used and whether the scions should be grafted high (like modern standards) or low (these were called dwarfs).

Now to this thread:
I agree with Scott's initial posting except Dr. Huey grows backwards within a year in my soils.
I was delighted to find an alternative to Dr. Huey slightly more than ten years ago and I was very pleased with the first ten years of growth on multiflora.
BUT, and this is a biggie, not all of my roses on multiflora have gone own root. Let's talk about Charles Austin, the climber. CA has grown well. It even avoided RRD that infected only one of its canes. Many years it had seven or more canes. One cane even laid along the ground, and no matter how I tried to cajole it, it did not root (even with asst hormones on its leaf nodes in contact with the ground). Now, at twelve, CA is growing backwards with only two good canes.
This is the same thing that happened with La France and Lucetta and The Lady and Die Welt. All on multiflora. All bought the same year. But when we dug these out, I found good healthy roots, but that the rootstock had overgrown the scion and I had lost the scions. I wasn't getting multiflora canes emerging, just knobs that resemble cypress knobs.
At the same time I have other roses from the same purchase that are still thriving. They are buried deep and I can see roots coming out and the rose area expanding beyond the site of the original bud union.
That I am loosing roses on multiflora isn't that surprising. Several years ago on Antique Rose Forum, Pete Flowers in Belgium reported that multiflora rootstock was short lived for him. And similar mentions are also out there for other countries. When Pete first mentioned it, I felt so smug because mine had passed his (IIRC) six/seven year decline point. Now, it seems my decline point is there, it's just a bit later.

If I see roses growing own root in the ground at Ashdown and Roses Unlimited and Sherando and Appalachian and Almost Heaven and...., I know they can do well for me. I am coming to cherish 'found' roses more and more because they are survivors on their own roots.

But I've fallen out of love with HTs. And much more in love with cluster flowered roses that seem to do so very well here.

In my experience, practically anything that suffers serious dieback isn't worth growing own-root. I just doesn't have the vigor necessary to rebound. It's really a shame since so many interesting roses are only available own-root, whether they have any business being sold that way or not.

In theory I should do better with Dr. Huey. By far the best HTs I've ever had came from Edmunds more than 10 years ago. At the time, I thought they were on multiflora, but later heard that spring shipments were usually on Dr. Huey. Unfortunately, I lost them to our equivalent of the Great Easter Freeze about 5 years ago. I gave them a year to come back, but it just totally knocked the stuffing out of them.

I've had quite a few small own roots struggle to come back each spring. After 3 years in the ground many of them are not much bigger in size than they were when initially planted. My grafted roses always come back strong every spring no matter how low they die back.

In my zone I know I'm pushing it with some of these plants. Quite frankly I'm surprised some of them survive at all. But what good is survival if they limp along all summer? Are they just not suited for my climate? How come other own roots can die down to within inches of their lives and come back strong every year?? I agree with mad_gallica - it all comes down to vigor..

Zone stretching + small own root plants + lack of vigor = a whole bunch of wasted time and effort.

Hybridizers select HT's and Floribundas in their breeding program by budding them and then evaluating them. Few HT's are ever evaluated on their own roots. This becomes painfully apparent when you try to grow them as own root plants. (the vast majority, anyway)

Regards,
Paul

I forgot to mention...Interestingly, Jackson and Perkins New Generation roses did very well for me. They were so huge that I checked and re-checked them looking for some bud union. They looked like the best multiflora grafted plants. So J$P own roots are planted in the ground and they do well for me.

One explanation for my failures with the majority of own roots can be that new own roots I got (about 1-gallon size or a bit bigger) should have been grown for another year or two in pots but instead I planted them in the ground. I barely have enough real estate to grow bands in pots but those I do.

Question to those who have success with own roots: do you grow your own root roses in pots for several years before transplanting them into the ground?

I am coming to cherish 'found' roses more and more because they are survivors on their own roots.

Ann, can you explain how it is possible that various clones of the same found rose do not flourish the same way? I keep thinking about it and I cannot come up with any sensible answer. I talked to a few people growing the same found rose I had two clones of from different sources and they also had the same problem as I did, namely the rose languishes but didn't grow. Some others report great growth and spectacular blooms of the same rose. How is it possible?

Question to those who have success with own roots: do you grow your own root roses in pots for several years before transplanting them into the ground?

This is mixed for me. If I have them or can get them, I will put my own-roots in a peat pot (1 gallon or larger) and then plant them in the ground, pot and all. However, most of the time, I just plant them in the ground. Last summer I planted Leonie Lemesch from Vintage directly in the ground. Now it is a small, knee high bush that is quite full. I had absolutely no winter kill with it and it's once again growing like gang busters.

I did the same thing with Marie Pavie about 10 years ago (again from Vintage). After several years, I dug it back up and moved it to my new property after keeping it in a pot for a year. Six years later, this girl is nearly 6' tall and 10' wide and is a knock out beauty. I expect that Leonie Lemesch will be the same in a few years.

Other than the new own-root roses under a year old, I don't think I have any that aren't at least 6' tall and 10' wide.

I hope this answers your question.

In my experience it is not only possible but usual that cuttings from the same plant will not all perform equally well. It happens with almost all of my own collected cuttings, except for the rare plant that propagates 100%. It also happens with commercially produced plants. Plant a hedge of 8 of anything, and one will die. At any major wholesale nursery, you'll see 500 square feet of 4 inch pots, 10% or more dead.

In addition, propagation at different times of the year with different disease or climatic pressures can affect vitality of cuttings.

There are probably more reasons that different own root plants of the same motherplant will grow differently - - uneven distribution of water, unequal ferts at some critical time in their growth cycle, and, most importantly, non-identical propagating wood. A single cane with lots of bud eyes cut into four cuttings won't necessarily produce four identically vigorous plants. I even suspect pathogens in commercial soils and composts I've used, as I've seen root nodules on some cuttings that fail to thrive.

We try to control variables, but since we are not using identical pieces of the motherplant, cuttings are intrinsically variable.

Here, everything seems to grow the same: Big and Hardy! Own roots, grafted from Pickering or HT's which are all likely grafted to Dr. Huey. All of the HT's are buried at least 6" deep and have gone own root.

Personally, I believe that many of the difficulties with own-roots can be avoided if one concentrates on root development. For me that means keeping them in pots for AT LEAST two growing seasons (longer if I'm starting with bands). I sink the pots in my garden -- usually at the spot where I hope to plant them. Sometimes I increase the pot size after a couple of seasons, sometimes I don't -- it depends on how robustly the plant performs for me. I also reduce bloom production on my own-root plants as long as I keep them in pots. I'm convinced that that helps to build up topgrowth as well as the root system.

Another advantage of keeping plants potted for longer periods of time is the flexibility of moving them around the garden to determine where a rose might look & perform best. Years ago, Pat Henry at Roses Unlimited suggested that I not rush to get my own-roots in the ground. It is advice that has definitely made a difference for me. Climbers treated this way sometimes pose a bit of difficulty, but the challenges can be overcome.

I can relate to Scott's difficulties with NC clay. All my roses (and especially my own-roots) do much better in raised beds containing heavily amended soil. Unfortunately, I can't give that treatment to all of mine.

I have some varities of ht's that do well on their own roots
like Folklore,Uncle Joe and Lemon Spice. I have a own root Keepsake that just sat there for 5 years and has finally taken off. Then some varities I've tried just never did well at all.

All of mine, grafted or own root, get potted first. I'm out of ground space until I kill off more lawn. The Sengodea that I mentioned was in a pot for two years before it went into the ground. Puny. Two HTs that were maidens on R. multiflora three years ago have outgrown Sengodea three-fold.

I haven't been at this for quite 9 years. I have had gardens in two states now (TN and NC) - believe it or not the clay is different :-) I started with HTs and Floribundas grafted on Dr. Huey. I still have a few of that original crowd, the one that springs to mind is Tropicana, which is now ownroot. For me if a Dr. Huey grafted rose does not go ownroot by year 5, then I lose it. I lose the graft and I lose the rose. If they go ownroot, they'll have a bad year as they transition, but then they'll take off. Granted, there are a few roses that do not do well ownroot, but in large part I'd still rather buy ownroot. Like others, I buy more OGRs and shrub types now, but I still buy some HTs and Floribundas.

I'm working on a cutting garden, because the HTs growth habit just looks so odd in my garden now. I think it would be wonderful to have a cutting garden behind an attractive fence - the fence draped with happy climbers. You could hid the awkward growth habit of the HTs and concentrate the more extensive spraying HTs typically require only on that group.

I have some HTs that are extremely happy campers ownroot. One of those is Fragrant Cloud--other include Peter Mayle, Mister Lincoln, Veteran's Honor, Midas Touch.

I suspect that zone, climate, soil, soil amendments as well as the rose itself are all factors in which format works best.

I buy my roses exclusivly from Ashdown so all my roses except maybe my 2 older ones are own root. But because of my small yard, poor soil, and too many tree roots, I find it easier to keep everything in pots except for the 2 older roses who are in the ground. Ashdown ships "potless" so when I get them I start them in smaller pots until the winter and then I transplant into the big 20" dia pots. All 7 roses I bought last yesr have doubled in size with buds galore, and I could have easily put them in the ground this year but of course they are all still in pots and that is where they will stay. (I live in VA Beach)

"Granted, there are a few roses that do not do well ownroot" (posted by Jody above). Over the years, I have seen similar statements posted by numerous others on this forum.

I've asked before (unsuccessfully) so I'll ask again: What roses, in your experience, do NOT do well as ownroot plants???

Not thriving on its own roots: Ainsley Dickson (Dicky).
And this time, it's not a case of different clones. The original plant was owned by a serious local exhibitor. When he was ill, a bunch of us went out to weed and prune his roses. Dicky was one he'd decided to get rid of. It was about five feet across and when we dug it up, the buried bud union was still there, but half rotted out. The bush was surviving on both rootstock and rootlets from the buried canes. There were lots of little Dickys to share.
But my little Dicky has never reached the size of the original, nor even come close in six years, many of them well watered and fertilized. My canes just can't reach the size (specifically caliper) of the original.

For others, you might want to search some of the early 1900s rose annuals for Proof of the Pudding as well as some of the Roses for Amateurs books. They often will warn that some roses need higher culture, glass house growth, and that sort of thing.

Did I not say in my posts above that I have problems with own root HTs? I mean EVERY own root HT I have tried has not done well.

Interesting Post! I've been an advocate of own-root roses for several years, but I have to admit grafted (if healthy) almost always seem to grow bigger (or at least as big). A main reason I like own-roots is they seem particularly well-suited to life in a pot, so Ceterum's question about growing them first in a pot might actually be a key factor to success. I know from experience that roses on Fortuniana (down here in the South, at least) will grow the biggest of all. That's precisely why I avoid it. Dr. Huey I don't like simply because the root structure is one of long central tap-roots that always find their way quickly out the bottom of the pot and aren't happy confined.
But small doesn't always mean weak or unhappy. I heard a rule of thumb years ago that seems to be mostly true; that varieties which tend toward bushiness/many branches will tend also to develop good roots. I've had many own-root roses, about half of them minis but the rest mostly hybrid teas, and the HTs vary a lot. Many old and newer do great own-root; some don't. I've lost count of the roses I've given to neighbors and friends because they had gotten too big to be happy in pots. Once in the ground they quickly get even bigger.
But back to Ceterum's question about letting the young roses mature some first in pots: Maybe that's the key. The one's I've given away after 2-4 years tend to do terrific in the ground; they've had lots of time to build up a good root system in friable potting soil and without competition from neighboring plants and trees.

Incidentally, some of the hybrid teas I've grown own-root that did very well include: Paradise, Gold Medal, the old HT Mrs. Herbert Stevens (really more of a tea), Lady Luck, Fragrant Plum, Tiffany, Helmut Schmidt, Touch of Class, Artistry, Timeless, and Olympiad. Radiance is OK own-root, but I wonder if it would do better grafted.

Some new ones for me that look promising are Deep Secret(kind of slow its first year but now looking bushy and vigorous, though still short, its 2nd spring), Dame de Coeur, Lagerfeld (still kind of gangly but growing big--I only got it last fall), all 3 I just got from Roses Unlimited, including Jardins de Bagatelle, Chrysler Imperial, and Papa Meilland (Ceterum had cautioned that PM may take 3-4 years to come into its own, but already it had 3 flower buds and it just came in mid-March. JdB has already produced 4 gorgeous blooms and seems to want to repeat rapidly, even continously! CI looks great too. Alec's Red is 1 year old and small but healthy and blooming well.

A few HTs I thought were happier grafted include: Fragrant Cloud, Mr. Lincoln, Valencia, Just Joey, Double Delight, and Honor.

The others I'm excited about are all mini floras or minis, so I guess they don't count for this discussion, since they're always own-root. But Man! Leading Lady and Whirlaway might as well be small hybrid teas, the blooms are so big and perfectly formed!

Good to know about Leading Lady. It's one of the few new roses I bought this year. Interesting too about Annes experience with multiflora being short lived. I bought a Tiffany last year specifically because it was grafted on multiflora. It was planted in some fairly heavy soil and I wanted to see how it handled it. Time will tell on that one....... On the New Generation roses I was very impressed with Tuscan Sun. So many own roots are whimpy their first year or two. You put up with it because you keep telling yourself that they need time to develop. Nice to see one come out of the starting gate like gangbusters.

FWIW, I find that own-root roses do better in raised beds or pots and sometimes that means planting the rose in a pot and allowing it time in its own pot to reach through the little holes and set its root into the ground. I have always wondered why that is. I am not sure that is altogether drainage, but something about that pot or that raised bed, just makes it better. One of the members of my garden club is a home extension agent, originally from California, and she says she has learned since moving to the south, that everything needs to be in raised beds or pots. I did not have time to discuss that with her further but want to pick her brain as to why she made that statement during a time when we were designing a new garden for the historic district and she wanted all raised beds and/or pots.

One of the biggest complaints around here about Double Delight is how well is doesn't do, even on a grafted root stock. I got one about 4 years ago on grafted root stock and it is now own root. I give folks a questioning look when they tell me their's isn't doing well. Mine is about 4 foot high and 4 foot wide and give new basal canes every year, is a full bush and blooms almost like mad. In my garden, I would say that Double Delight really enjoys being on it's own roots.

Own root roses I've had trouble with -- Just Joey, this one doesn't like to grow for me; I've tried both grafted and own-root. Julia's Rose, this one loves being potted but languishes in the ground. By Appointment is another that is slow in the garden and is now looking at the shove. Pretty much everything else is preforming well. Tamora prefers being in a pot too.

There are a bunch of mine that are either dead or languishing and I'm planning on shoveling this year. All these however, with the exception of By Appointment, are grafted roses. My grafted roses that went own-root are actually better than some of my own-root roses. Double Delight, Forgotten Dreams and Julia Childs. There is a huge noticable difference on how these grow and bloom.

Scott

Normally roses in our area do exceptionally well in our red
clay. They seem to thrive on it. I usually will only grow
ogr own root. Everything else MUST be on fortuniana. You will get much larger bushes, many more and larger blooms
and longer cutting stems on fortuniana. And theses bushes are the same price that you'll pay at RU. There are 3 main nurseries in the south, K&M in Buckatunna, MS, Cool Roses in West Palm Beach, FL, and Johnny Becnel's. I've purchased a number of plants from K&M, and Cool Roses. Jim Mills, of K&M, is EXTREMELY knowledgeable, as to what roses will perform best for your particular needs. He grafts, instead of budding, and grafts at least 3 sets of bud eyes to make the plant stronger.
Ray

How can you tell what rootstock is used? How can you tell when a plant has bypassed the graft and is now own-root? I can give feedback on my New Generation roses (all excellent growers so far) and the Austins that I bought that were labeled own-root, (spindly but hanging in there) but I don't really know how to check on the others, short of saying it has a huge knot that looks like a graft. From now on, I will document whether a plant is own-root or not, and keep records because I would like to see if there are regional differences, or if it is soil or climate or individual varieties that determine success.
I wonder if any of the hort journals have published research of all the classes of roses in the different zones or climates? Is your post asking for historical observations the only data we have? Or are we limited to what Ann noted--just the very old rose books with data on old garden roses? Are there any extension or ag college trial beds with own root roses? Hopefully Dr. Buck wasn't the only person working on this?

Hi Scott (my brother, and RayRose (my husband)!

As both of you know, Fortuniana is the best of the best for my Florida climate, and my HT's absolutely go nuts. Black Magic, which was a fairly pitiful Carlton rose is a monster and blooms nearly year-round. It is not uncommon to see 12-20 huge blooms at one time.

As for own-root, Belinda's Dream and Outta the Blue are the best examples I have of successful OGR's. To have in excess of 300 blooms on BD is something amazing to see. My new Let Freedom Ring that hubby just bought for me is spectacular, but time will tell how it does in the long run.

I will post a link to my online album where you can see the specific ones mentioned.

Love to both of you, and 'like' to everyone else!
Mary

Here is a link that might be useful: April Garden Pictures

I have 2 grafted roses. I have about 46 own root roses and have gotten rid of maybe a dozen more. We have a small plot so I can't grow more. Whether I started the roses or bought them as rootlings, I've had no problem with own root roses in my zone. But I have had suckers from the former roses that were on Dr Huey.

In Michigan we have about the same number of roses. Two are grafted. They die back pretty hard most years. So do some of the own roots. All come back except for one grafted rose in the past that didnt - so now there is a Dr. Huey growing.

None were grown in pots - they all went into the ground. Most grafted roses have 3 yr old roots when you get them. If you get an ungrafted one of the same age, I don't understand why a grafted rose would do better than an ungrafted one. But since I have had no trouble ever with ownroot roses, I almost never grow the others.