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subk3

Sudden cane death?

subk3
9 years ago

What causes what appears to be a healthy newly leafed out cane shrivel up and die in a matter of a day or two? Anything I should do?

I've got a 3 year old tea noisette, Pleasant Hill Cemetery, that seemed to have the least amount of winter damage of all my warm climate roses lose about three canes in the last few weeks.

The plant has about 5 or 6 basal breaks so at least I know the roots are happy, but I was actually hoping for a rose of two from it since those will be sparse for me this spring!

Comments (19)

  • anntn6b
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A couple of possibilities:

    Voles ate the roots. Specifically the roots that supported that particular cane.

    More likely: our wretched weather. In my garden, canes that were alive in early March (even though they weren't leafed out) were putting out newly growing buds that were beginning to swell....well, we had one cold snap (locally called Dogwood Winter) that dropped the temps back down to low twenties for about twelve hours. A week later all that new sweeling buds- dead, dead, dead. (Insert vile mess of curses here.)

    The canes that were trying pretty much gave up their ghosts with that fifth severe freeze.

    Your temps may have been warmer than mine, but our fifth freeze was colder over by Nashville and I'd suggest that that's what got your growth.

    Meanwhile, you and I have to embrace the knowledge that we have good root development underground and we HAVE to be patient for those roots to make the above ground growth that we know they can do.

    (I do leave some twelve inches of dead canes on roses just to act as palisades to protect the new growth from me, DH, the cats and the birds that want a place to rest while they hunt for critters.)

  • charleney
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Happy to see your post. Daughter has been worried, because her love and peace has wilted back. She cut the wilt back, but now she tells me that the rest of that cane is dying back too. I will get on the phone and read this to her.

  • anntn6b
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Charleney,
    Strongly suggest to your daughter that she cleans her cutters thoroughly with soap and water after cutting. If her problem is bacterial, cut into the cane as low as possible and with the cleanest cutters possible.

    Then let the cutters air dry before using them on another rose.

    Just in case.

  • pat_bamaz7
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Same thing happened to several of my young OGRs. They came through the winter with some green cane, but then a couple of weeks after that last late cold snap, one by one each cane withered and died. Canker ran rampant through my moderns, but this was different...no canker spots noticeable, the canes just shriveled and died. I replaced them a couple of weeks ago...didn't want to wait too long to see if they came back and let it get too hot to plant new ones. I potted up the ones I dug out and roots on most still appeared to be alive. If they put out new growth, I'll overwinter them in the garage to use as replacements should we have another terrible winter.

  • anntn6b
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The top side discoloration .....could it be sunburn? Remember how late this season is. Normal times (for normal rose growing), when the sun is this intense, we'd have nice large leaves shading out the still hardening canes from the noon day sun.

    Several years ago (it was about a decade ago, disasters seem so much more recent than they were), I pruned from the south in one of my HT beds. I started to feel really sick when I realized that canes that looked to have dead canes (really ugly discolored surfaces) from the south, had other sides that were still rather pleasant greens. That's when sunburn became, to me, the only possible explanation (and those canes didn't have many lower leaves.)

    So, I thought I'd wise up and leave canes that were half healthy. Those canes died midsummer as the fungi and/or rot spread around those canes.

    " AFTER they had appeared to recovered and had new growth. It just seems like there was a good delay from the cold to the die back. " I think the problem is that the tiny bud damage was the first thing we saw. But there was more damage than that to especially vulnerable xylem and phloem that was where ice crystals grew and destroyed the roses' vascular systems. With the collapse of the vascular systems, leaves out on canes can't survive.

    I think what we have to do this year is work to grow roots. This springs' canes will grow but we really have to work to keep the roots healthy and next year, hopefully, those roots will continue to support above ground rose canes that might start growing at a more normal early spring time.

  • subk3
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hmmm...maybe sunburn, but I notice the discoloration in the middle of winter. Could it be windburn, with the same effect? Should I expect them to all give up the ghost by summer?

    Fortunately this particular rose has grown like gangbusters (as did my other Tea Noisette, Princess de Nassau which winter took back to the ground) both regularly breaking basals often times in multiples. I'm hoping they like all the horse manure compost they get in abundance--it's all I really know to do.

  • anntn6b
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Also in addition to manure, watch soil moisture. An inch in July is a lot less (to the rose) than an inch in April.

  • buford
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've had a lot of this in my yard. I don't think it's sunburn, because it has effected some roses, but not all. I cut back what I thought was dead growth to live growth and then these canes just kept getting more discolored going further down, until I had to remove most of them to the roots. Like Ann, I had some that had started to put out new growth and then they eventually died (we had that same late cold snap). These were mostly teas, which are hardy to zone 7. But we did get below 0 on two nights during the worst of that Polar Vortex, and I think that was just too much for the teas.

  • dublinbay z6 (KS)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Buford said: I cut back what I thought was dead growth to live growth and then these canes just kept getting more discolored going further down, until I had to remove most of them to the roots.

    That describes what happened to a couple of my favorite roses last year--in the middle of the summer. I have no explanation for what happened--the brown just kept moving down the cane no matter how I pruned it. First one cane, then another, after that, another--until the entire rose was dead.

    When I posted about it last summer, no one had any real explanation, although I think there was some speculation that it was some kind of virus or infection.

    I'm watching this thread with interest--since I'm still puzzled about that happened to two of my favorite roses (Eden and Molineux).

    Kate

  • peepsi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Same die back here in my garden. New growth looks healthy, then overnight some of new branches wilt and begin to die. Other portions of the plant look okay. Same weather conditions this past winter as mentioned in previous posts.

  • subk3
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not noticing that it is something that starts working at the tips and moves down. It starts by all the growth on the cane--from tip to base--wilting as if it suddenly isn't getting water and then in a matter of a day or two the whole cane is dead.

  • mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I often see here are canes that have damage quite far down (canker near the soil line) that have enough energy stored in the green cane to leaf out. When those stores are used up, the new growth dies.

    BTW, I have several hardy OGRs where the north side of the canes turn red, and the south side remains green. It isn't a sign of cane damage, just exposure.

  • seil zone 6b MI
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is it possible that these canes appeared to be OK when you pruned but were actually already winter damaged and are just now dieing back? I've had that happen to me in spring freeze and thaw cycles.

  • buford
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I read this in my Rose Society's Newsletter:

    This spring I had to prune many of my older hybrid teas to the ground. Some of the young roses on ‘Fortuniana’ I left longer and just removed the really bad-looking canes. My logic for this is that ‘Fortuniana’-rootstock roses grow best when left tall and it might be too much of a shock to remove all of the old canes. Right now they are all putting out new growth, much of which is probably “fool’s gold”. Canes that are damaged and not outright killed by winter will always put out new growth. The problem is that this growth will likely be weak with lots of blind shoots and poor blooms if they bloom at all. But on these younger roses, I am hoping that the leaves will at least make enough food to give the bud union some extra “oomph” to pump out a few basal breaks before May. If they do, then I will prune out the weak, damaged canes so that all of the rose’s energy goes into the new strong canes. course this assumes that the bud union is healthy enough to do just that....no sure thing at all after the winter of 2013-14.
    How can you tell if the cane is just damaged and not killed? After the dramatic plunge from temperatures in the mid-70s in late December to near zero in early January, canes that were killed turned black, meaning that all the cell walls burst inside the cane and in the cambium layer. Some “good as dead canes” also will look shriveled and desiccated. Damaged canes will have mushy brown pith or dried-out, shrunken pith with gaps in the center of the cane. Canes that have only slightly brown centers can go either way and might be worth keeping.
    The most deceptive canes to diagnose are ones that are bright green, bright red, or a combination of healthy-looking green and red. These canes are often very large and beautiful looking. They formed late in the year when weather conditions were ideal for rapid growth. Sadly though, the reason they look so young and healthy is they did not have enough time to harden off before the severe freezes that occurred. Blame the warm December for that. These canes have “zero” chance of surviving and must be cut off at the bud union. When you cut into one, the center will have nothing but brown “gunk”. There is nothing there worth saving. This is the reason we do not fertilize after early September. We do not want to encourage these “monster basal breaks” to start growing. Growing conditions are perfect enough in late September and October without any extra help from over- enthusiastic rosarians. I am even considering changing my own practice on this matter to not fertilizing with a high nitrogen fertilizer after the third week of August. We always thought that the excess nitrogen from an early September fertilizing would be long gone by the time October rolled around. Maybe it really isn’t!
    I used to start planting roses for clients in late March. But with freezes in March and early April, I have pushed back my planting date to around April 10. On that day, I can look at the forecast for the next week to see if a severe freeze is likely. If not, I start planting. Of course if we see a severe freeze on May 1, that might be the signal to stop growing roses altogether. Let’s hope we don’t ever find out.
    Okay, so now it is early May and we have a good idea which roses are going to recover and which ones are goners. What about ones that you are not really sure about? Do you dig them up or give them more time. Here are my rules of thumb for that...

    If it is a rose I was already considering getting rid of, then bring out Mr. Shovel.
    If there are no new basal breaks and the rest of bush does not look good, feed Mr. Shovel.
    If the rose did not do well last year, let Mr. Shovel feast.
    If there is at least one decent new basal break or low lateral cane and I like the rose, I give it more time.
    If the rose is one that is hard to find and I like it, I will give it a bit more time even if it has not put out any strong new growth yet.
    If the rose is a large mature rose which has done very well in the past and it is a favorite of mine, I will keep it and give it the entire summer even if canes continue to die back in June.
    Why keep this one? A few years ago there was a big Thanksgiving freeze. I protected my roses well and thought they all survived the winter in good shape. Come the following spring, big canes on my best bushes started dying back. This continued into July, so I shovel-pruned and planted new bushes there the following year. That fall there were two roses, ‘Pat’s Choice’ and ‘Affirm’, that I never got around to digging up because they had large bud unions on ‘Fortuniana’. They still looked terrible and I did not want to go to the trouble of winter mulching bushes that I was going to dig up anyway. So I just decided to let winter finish them off and I would replace them next year when I had more energy for such things. To my surprise, these two roses that I had left for dead put out dozens of strong basal breaks. By summer, these bushes had recovered every bit to their former size and continued to be two of the biggest bushes in my garden. Now they have suffered heavy damage again and I have cut them back again. I am anxious to see how they recover this time.
    If you have decided to let a badly damaged bush recover, here is what you do. First, keep it well-watered. Water every day if possible in hot weather. Fertilize with your favorite liquid fertilizer like Mills Easy Feed, Peter’s 20-20-20, MiracleGro, etc., according to directions. Pinch off all flower buds as soon as they appear. Do not let them bloom at all! This will divert all the energy into making new canes, not mediocre blooms. It is imperative that you spray religiously. You need every last healthy green leaf to make food for the recovering rose bush. Pick off Japanese Beetles as you see them. You will not have many because they are drawn first and foremost to the blooms. And there will be no blooms on these recovering roses...right? Do not spray for beetles...period! Over-spraying for beetles will encourage spider mites and your precious recovering rose does not need to deal with mites. If you do get mites, wash them off the undersides of leaves as soon as you see them. Use a water wand to wash each leaf. Do this for a few days in a row. This will also double as your daily watering for the roses as well. Stop regular fertilizing by late August, although you can use superphosphate, root-stimulator, or even Mills Magic Rose Mix (the dry stuff) as they have very little nitrogen. This you can do into early September. Just remember, use nothing with more than 5% nitrogen. If you are lucky, by September, the bushes will have recovered enough that you can let them bloom and pick some blooms for the house. If not, they may need more time.
    One final option for your freeze-damaged rose is to dig it up, put it in a five or seven gallon pot, and baby it with lots of water and fertilizer. Bring it into a warm garage or greenhouse in the winter and presto...you will likely have a nice looking rose to plant next spring. I do this all the time with clients’ roses that I remove to make way for the new roses that they want, even if the roses are in ghastly shape that only a mother could love. I pot them up in five-gallon nursery pots, using a nice Fafard potting mix. I put them in a half sun/shade area of my yard so they will not burn up in the hot summer sun and then take care of them for the rest of the year. In late fall, I move them into my greenhouse and by spring, quite often I have nice looking roses that can be planted into someone’s garden. This does entail a bit of extra work though, so be sure you want to go to the effort before you start. The final thing you will need to do is to provide winter protection for the recovering rose. I have started using the Nutra mulch from Green Bros. Earthworks for my winter protection. It is a nice brown fine-textured light and fluffy mix that is easily applied. It also will help feed your roses as it breaks down the following spring and summer. Mound it up high around the canes and pray we do not have a repeat performance of this year’s disastrous winter.
    My final note on rose damage deals with what to do with tree roses. To my pleasant surprise, the past three winters have not been too hard on my tree roses, even considering how cold my garden is compared to much of metro Atlanta inside the perimeter. My tree roses include ‘Lasting Love’, ‘Julia Child’, ‘Moonstone’, and ‘Sedona’. There was virtually no damage at all on them since 2010. This is surprising since the bud union is three feet above ground and totally exposed.
    There is really not much I could have done to protect them this year with the exception of draping frost cloth over them and putting a small heater underneath the frost cloth. In northern gardens, rosarians sometimes loosen one side of the roots and lay the entire tree rose on its side and cover it with mulch or soil. I will say this now...that is just too much work and it would not have helped this winter! If you had actually tried this, you would also have had the unpleasant surprise of seeing new shoots growing vertically from the canes that were lying sideways at ground level. This would have been bizarre indeed! Gardens in the north don’t have three weeks of temperatures in the 60s and 70s to deal with, so they do not get shoots growing straight up. But we do!
    That is all for now. May your roses have survived winter’s ravages and thrive throughout the upcoming summer months.
    From the April 2014 issue of The Phoenix, newsletter of the Greater Atlanta Rose Society, Bobbie Reed, Editor.

  • seil zone 6b MI
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! Great article, Buford! Thanks for the share!

  • Poorbutroserich Susan Nashville
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks so much for sharing! I definitely am dealing with the deceptive canes! I'm wondering if bringing them in and out allowed non hardened growth to continue growing and then that last freeze *POW* that's what got them. I will be walking around the garden and see a healthy rose bush with dead twiggy growth underneath.....
    Susan

  • meredith_e Z7b, Piedmont of NC, 1000' elevation
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've been having a huge problem with it, too :( It has to be the winter for me. It's hitting some roses that were doing beautifully, and it has hit just too many for it to be anything but the stupid polar vortex. The worst are ones that were in the bitter winds (protected, but not up top).

    A couple got cankers suddenly way down at the base, but many looked great until their canes just suddenly shriveled. It might have to do with the cold/warm cycles that happened here, but one way or another it was the winter that did it, I think. So frustrating!

    Many are coming back really great from a drastic pruning, though. My Eden had to be cut completely off (a big ole Eden!), but she's growing strongly from the roots. I found that little ants had made a home with eggs in her old, huge main cane base (the old woody part), lol! So maybe she needed a rejuvenation pruning ;)

    Good luck, y'all (and for me)!!

  • opheliathornvt zone 5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great article!