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| For those who missed the last thread on the subject, a month ago I got stabbed in the back of my right hand by a rose thorn. The next day my hand was swollen with red streaks, so on the advice of the good rosarians here I went to the ER, where I got a tetanus shot and ten days worth of antibiotics. I told the ER doctor that I thought a piece of the thorn might have stayed behind in my hand, but he said rose thorns are too tough to break off like that.
The swelling went down and the pain in my hand improved, but never disappeared entirely. My hand function is still impaired, and there's a hard bump (like a BB under the skin) at the entry point. I went to see my doctor on Tuesday. He said part of the thorn was definitely in there and needs to come out. But because it's sitting on a nerve and tendon, he wanted an orthopedist to do it. So early this morning I saw the orthopedist. He concurred that it's important that it be removed before it causes more problems. I thought at that point he would whip out his scalpel, maybe along with a needle for some Novocaine. But no, he said it'll require an operating room, anesthesia, and someone to drive me. Can you believe it? All this time and trouble and expense because I made a careless move in the garden. (Believe me, I'm much better about wearing gloves these days.) Susan |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Can you find someone to do the minor surgery in their office? Just a thought because I know someone who has their colonoscopies in a doctor's office under sedation. Anethesia + operating room = $$$$$ After hearing this, I need to wear gloves. Sorry it turned into this. Carla |
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- Posted by athenainwi z4b/5 WI (My Page) on Fri, May 30, 08 at 13:47
| Oh, that's awful. It's too bad the first doctor didn't notice the thorn still in there right away. I hope it all goes well. |
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| I'm afraid I'd be rather frustrated with the first doctor. He really should have been more careful. So sorry you're having to go through so much. It does seem odd that it will require such extensive measures to take the thorn out. Wonder if the ER doctor would like to foot your bill? Ingrid |
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- Posted by berndoodle (My Page) on Fri, May 30, 08 at 14:34
| What a drag, Susan. I hope your orthopod is a hand specialist? If not, get one. You don't want nerve damage in your hand no how. |
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| I was going to say, the first doctor doesn't know diddly about rose thorns. I always get the tips stuck in my feet and hands (I have a bad habit of going around barefoot). In fact, I have the tiny tip of one stuck in my finger right now, but it's not bothering me. But last year, I had to have DH perform minor surgery on my feet to take out two. It wasn't too bad because my feet are so calloused, I couldn't feel anything. I had a tetanus shot recently so I should be OK. |
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| I think we should all save those bits of rose thorns that break off in our hands (and other places) and ship them to that emergency room doctor. Susan, I'm sorry you are having to go through this, but hands are important. Maybe its for the best that emergency room doctor didn't do any more than he did, since he seems to be uninformed. |
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| Yikes!!! I am so sorry!! I'd get a second opinion on the surgery. I had a piece of glass lodged into the bottom of my foot (shouldn't have been walking around a party zone in college barefoot!), and the dr just dug it out in the office. Blech. |
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| If you cannot do it yourself, then the operating room is the way to go. I stopped breathing when they gave me local anesthesia the last time. it was a horrible allergic reaction, and I had no idea that I was allergic. I am thankful to have been in the hospital. Years ago my daughters were playing with toothpicks in a motel. The end of one got lodged in my daughter's knee. After a couple of day trying to get it out, we applied hot compresses, then my husband was going to try to squeeze it out like a pimple. He barely squeezed, and the thing blew out. It scared us all. It really had a little force, and totally came out. With the nerve involved, your doctor would have done something like this if it were safe. I think you are doing what is correct, but I also think a hand doctor would be good. (neurologist?? I don't have a clue) |
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- Posted by caroleintegacay SC/Zone 8 (My Page) on Fri, May 30, 08 at 18:27
| I had a tiny tip of a thorn stuck in the back of my hand earlier this spring. I knew it was in there and tried digging it out with a needle. That didn't work...LOL!!! But then I remembered this gooey black salve that my Mom had used to remove a splinter in my knee as a kid. I Googled "drawing salve" and found it for sale somewhere on the internet. I used it on the thorn (covered with a bandaid for a few days and out it came! I'm not sure I'd use in on a thorn that was resting on a nerve but for just for a random thorn it worked for me. Carole |
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- Posted by lindawisconsin 4 (My Page) on Fri, May 30, 08 at 18:28
| After 20 years of working in health care -- It sounds to me like you have good insurance and the orthopedist knows that. I'd ask more questions. He wouldn't make much money from an office procedure, but he will in the operating room. I'd want to know more and if there are options to do it in office. |
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| You can pick up some particularly dangerous infections from rose thorns. Serious stuff. Jeri |
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- Posted by lindawisconsin 4 (My Page) on Fri, May 30, 08 at 19:13
| Yes, serious infections can result from a puncture wound of any kind, and there are some known to occur more often in rose growers. I will always remember a question on the microbiology certification exam in which the key phrase was: Patient is a rose gardener. It was a tipoff for a certain fungal infection. However it sounds like the infection has been treated and cleared up with no symptoms of infection (redness, fever) remaining. The question now is the removal of a foreign body under the skin. |
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| Thanks for your comments, everyone. I think the doctor is a hand specialist. He did my carpal tunnel surgery eight years ago. Linda, I tend not to be terribly trusting of the medical profession (in general) myself. But in this case the physician knows I have insurance concerns, so if he's ordering the operating room for financial gain, he knows there's a chance I'll be hit for some of it. I'd be surprised if that were true, actually. This guy is a great deal less slick than many I've encountered, and the same is true of my PCP (who recommended him). Like most doctors, though, he's fond of the drug Versed, and I told him I didn't want him to use it on me. He probably doesn't understand why I'm opposed to feeling pain but having my memory of it erased. |
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| I certainly would get another doctor's opinion, but I wouldn't wait a long time. There are a lot of nerves in the hand that can get damaged. If there is a less invasive method of getting the thorn out other than surgery, that would be great. However, you may find that your situation is more serious and that surgery is needed. I worked in the medical profession also, and sometimes I think surgery is suggested far too often. But....you need another opinion, and then you can make an informed decision. I used to be careless around roses, and sometimes I still get scratched, but not as often. I used to have a huge mass planting of Knockouits grafted on fortuniana, planted too close together. The first spring after planting, I pruned these monsters. it took me a month to do all 53 of them working full time (they were 8 feet by 8 feet each, crammed 4 feet apart). The thorns were at least 2 inches long on them and very sharp. They tore through and shredded two pairs of thick rose gauntlet gloves. My upper body was horribly scratched. My friend, a nurse, was so worried about me getting a massive infection - one that antibiotics wouldn't be able to cure. Fortunately I didn't become ill. I still have a few light scars on my arms. The second spring I couldn't bring myself to touch those roses. I'd go out with my pruners and go right back in the house. I hired someone to remove them all. Several pairs of this man's welding gloves were shredded. The only regrets I have are the money I wasted. I don't miss them at all. I do have 3 own root Knockouts that are manageable. I have those 3 because my husband likes them and missed the ones outside his office window. I now have many roses, but with "normal" thorns. Even my prickly Autumn Damask is not anywhere near as bad as those Knockouts were. And yes, I am exteremly careful and always wear gloves, even when just picking a leaf or two off of a rose. I also wear safety glasses when pruning, as I got poked in the eye one time by a cane. You can think you're being careful, but things happen. Good luck with your hand. Sandy |
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- Posted by greenhaven N Illinois 4b-5a (My Page) on Fri, May 30, 08 at 23:38
| alisande, thanks for the update. I was actually thinkinig about it not very long ago, really! I think you are a smart lady and know what to do that is the best for YOU. Sammy, I have had similiar experiences with splinters. a couple weeks ago I got two BIG ones jammed in my finger while weeding my raised veggie bed. One came out right away, but the other refused to yield, even after I let hubby dig around for it until I couldn't take it anymore. I remembered past experiences, and decided to wait a day or two. I soaked it and kept it clean, and pretty soon my body's reaction to the foreign object built up enough pressure behind it to pop that sucker out! Doesn't always work, though.... |
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- Posted by patricia43 z8 AL (My Page) on Sat, May 31, 08 at 0:38
| It sounds as though you had cellulitis and the antibiotic you were given was either ineffective or you did not have enough of it, but the part of the rose thorn remaining would have been hard to locate without a C-arm. There is a reason you should have this done in the appropriate setting where a C-arm can be used and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, don't (if it involves nerves and tendons) let anyone tell you it is not important enough to do in a proper surgical suite. Where you might get alone just fine, the chances of a morbid consequences are far too risky to worry about. Let it be done where your doctor can use a C-arm and have the appropriate monitoring equipment. |
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| Alisande, I had a very similar experience with the tip of a thorn (not a rose in this case) broken off in a knuckle. Because it got infected, I also had to go on the antibiotic regimen. They did try a drawing solution, but no luck. The thorn tip had become encapsulated during the antibiotic treatment. The solution was microsurgery by a hand specialist, in a hospital setting, but I was awake during the surgery. Because this occurred in New Zealand, the facilities are somewhat different, but it sounds like the solution is the same. Hands really are nothing to mess around with. It will be a relief when it's done, but it sounds like you are doing the right thing. I really doubt a second opinion would change anything. |
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| If there was ever a lesson on the need for having or keeping those tetanus shots up to date, this scenario is it. Fortunately for you, you went to the ER and had it taken care of, at least to a degree. I'm sure there are some doctors who would do out-patient surgery, but since tetanus is such a serious thing, perhaps you should do as the orthopedist suggests. After all is said and done, get a pair of goat skin leather gloves, and you should be fine. Oh, and keep that tetanus shot up to date. |
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| Get it done in a controlled environment, with good lighting, proper instruments and good anesthesia- i.e. in an OR. Not every surgeon has an office set up for surgery. If you want to waste more time and money, then get a second opinion. His charge code/reimbursement is the same whether he does it in the office, or the OR. Hope it gets better. |
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- Posted by patricia43 z8 AL (My Page) on Sat, May 31, 08 at 14:50
| Roseman, Susan does not have Tetanus. She has a residual problem related to an unremoved rose thorn followed by a bout of cellulitis. The thorn has callused and if not removed, can potentially continue to cause damage to precious tendons sheaths, nerves, muscles, etc., thus disabling her hand and fine motor function. Any doctor who would undertake this in his office would have two fools there, the patient and himself/herself, because hand tendon/nerve surgery is very delicate and proper long-term expectations, physically and for cosmesis, should only be performed in a controlled environment where proper techniques can and will be applied. Incidentally, some insurance companies pay the surgeon a higher percentage for surgery that is done in an outpatient setting; therefore, the reason so many "surgical clinics" are popping up for day-surgery and this could be done in one of those but not in a doctor's office. That's a big difference. |
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| I really appreciate everyone's concern. I'm not inclined to get a second opinion as the orthopedist's statements made sense to me, and corroborated what my primary care physician had already told me. Plus I have some confidence in him based on past experience. One thing I forgot to ask is how long a recovery period I can expect. I don't suppose I'll be able to go home after the surgery and start typing . . . Oh, and would you believe I have another possible thorn issue? I discovered that one cannot remove tent caterpillars from rose bushes while wearing gloves. I've been careful while removing them—really! But yesterday I got the tip of a thorn stuck in the tip of my index finger. (Blame it on my aging eyes.) It took a bit of effort to get the piece of thorn out, but I finally sort of pushed it out. At least I hope it all came out. I'm a little concerned because pressure on that spot is more painful then I think it should be, and I can see a little dot under the skin. No infection, though. Maybe I should be confined to the house during spring. |
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- Posted by patricia43 z8 AL (My Page) on Sat, May 31, 08 at 15:43
| Susan, discuss recovery with your physician. Ask him about the risks, benefits and alternatives, expected outcomes as well as potential risks, etc. Get that other thorn treated and buy some darn gloves. ;) |
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- Posted by bloomorelse Z4b NB Canada (My Page) on Sat, May 31, 08 at 16:45
| Hope your sugery and recovery goes well... and as Patrici43 said, keep your gloves on while in the garden. |
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| alisande, hope all goes well with getting that thorn out. You essentially did have two opinions, one from your primary care physician and one from the specialist. You most definitely want the thorn removed in a hospital setting if it is embedded deeply, and if there is any remote chance that nerves could be damaged. Hospitals have more state of the art equipment than an office would have. We'll be praying for you. Please let us know how you're doing afterwards. And...you need to ALWAYS wear heavy duty gloves when working outside, especially around sharp objects like thorns (which are crawling with all kinds of critters). Sandy |
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| I'm glad you're getting surgery. That situation could have a serious outcome, i.e. losing hand. Keep us updated. We'll see how you type one handed! Carla |
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- Posted by peggyoregon Coastal Zone 8 (My Page) on Mon, Jun 2, 08 at 9:47
| Getting a rose thorn caught under the skin is no different then any tiny injury to the skin. A pinhole can allow bacteria (that's always on the skin) into the body. This can cause havoc in a minority of people who are susceptible to infection. My husband is one of those people who ended up in the hospital, on I.V. antibiotic therapy, for several days after having a tiny injury to his foot. Alisande's situation is different. I do wonder if an X-ray was taken to determine exactly where this little bump is in relation to nerves & tendons? I work as a Surgical Secretary & one of the Surgeons told me a story of a patient he had once that spent a week in the hospital because of infection from a rose thorn. I've had thorns in my hands alot & they always work their way out without any problems. Again - it depends how susceptible one is. Good to be aware, but no reason to get overly worried. |
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| Peggy, my understanding is that rose thorns are radiolucent, so they won't show up on an x-ray. This made me happy, as I was over-x-rayed in my youth and try to avoid it as much as possible. An ultrasound was discussed, but the orthopedist said so much depends on the skill of the technician, and he (the physician) is clear on the location anyway. Thanks again, everyone. Susan |
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- Posted by sparkshites (My Page) on Wed, Sep 24, 08 at 17:36
| on saturday i got stuck with a rose thorn in the crease of my right index finger. (it's now wed) so... now my finger has swollen up twice the size of my other finger, it's hot and red/purple. it hurts like hell and i can't bend it either. i called my dad (he's a doc in oregon) and he called in a rx for me ( a z-pack) he said if it's not way better in 2 days that i must go see my gp as i probably have acquired a fungal infetion!!! does anyone know the treatment regimine for said inf??? ( i hate to bother him again) any info will be greatly appreciated thanx, christy |
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| Christy, could a piece of the thorn be left behind? I assume you read all the posts in this thread.... I don't know the treatment for a fungal infection, but the ER doctor told me roses can carry bacteria, fungi, and tetanus. Is your tetanus shot up to date? |
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| Any sort of wood, lodged in your body, is dangerous. I almost lost a foot that way, about 50 years ago. We have just gone through a very bad time with one of our dogs, who I've always taken rose thorns seriously, but I take them much more Jeri |
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- Posted by cindi_in_ks z6 KS 67232 (My Page) on Wed, Sep 24, 08 at 19:57
| Susan, How did the surgery turn out? sorry if you already posted about it...I need to catch up on reading here. Are your hands back to full use? Cindi |
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- Posted by christy(sparkshites@yahoo.com) onWed, Sep 24, 08 at 21:01
| thanx alisande for the reply... i'm sure i got the whole thorn out. i've been soaking my finger in h2o/epsom salt 3-4 times a day and it still looks pretty bad. now it throbs like there is a heart actually in my finger. i've been stuck with thorns hundreds of time ( i've had up to 40 rosebushes in my yard at one time) but, man i've never had one get this bad. i'm pretty sure there is something else going on. anyways, i'm not sure on the status of my tetnus shot, i'll check with my gp tomorrow. thanx again for your help :) |
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| Susan, I hope you can give an update too. Carla |
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| The first thorn (and major infection) was in the back of my hand. Surgery was scheduled, and then Gertrude Jekyll stuck me in the tip of my index finger. I removed that thorn easily, but by the time the surgery date rolled around I still found it painful to press down with that finger. So I told the surgeon I thought a piece of the thorn my have been left behind. I could see a dark. He could not. But he agreed to cut and see. Honestly, if I had it to do again I'd take my chances and not mention the index finger to him. He said he didn't see anything that clearly looked like the tip of a thorn, but he removed a small amount of discolored whatever. (He said it better than that.) The healing process for that finger has been painful and difficult, involving massaging the tip and pressing it on a hard surface to soften the scar. That HURT! So did typing, and any number of other things. It still hurts, but not as much. In contrast, the incision on the back of my hand healed quickly. It took some time to regain the grip strength in my hand, but I think it's almost normal at this point. Thanks for asking! Susan |
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- Posted by cactus_joe 7b (My Page) on Fri, Sep 26, 08 at 0:05
| "When drinking wine amongst the roses Or guzzling beer while throwing bricks Or playing games in bales of hay Where lurks the tricky sporothrix, Beware, the price you pay for play When you get struck by dread mycoses" ---author unknown Nobody has mentioned Sporotrichosis, "rose picker's disease" or "rose thorn disease". Google Sporothrix schenckii for your own education as all who handle roses must learn about this fungus. |
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| I've found that the very tip of the rose thorn can dislodge and remain in the skin even after the thorn is removed. I suspect the tip of the rose thorn remains in your finger tip that hurts when you press on it. |
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| Wow Susan, I have read this from the begininning all over again... and have really felt for you. A friend of mine also had a bad experience after thorning herself with a rose....I am in the middle of reading "For Love of the Rose", recently mentioned on this forum, and Papa Meilland's mother had a hook instead of a hand as she had a severely infected hand which was amputated after being thorned. It did not mention the type of thorn. Anyhow, I know thorn pricks cannot be taken lightly. Well we get pricked and scatched by thorns constantly when you are a rose gardener. But I actually got my first alarming one a few days ago. it stabbed me right in an athritic finger joint and I did fear the consequences, and the pain also. My joint felt very sore and bruised and I really thought I had done a number on it like yourself. Alas, no subsequent swelling and the pain left in about 48 hours! Lucky, I would say.:) Glad your surgery is behind you and that it was successful. But the other incident of the finger thorn must have indeed been miserable. The nerve endings in the fingers (and toes) can be very painful when challenged. Hope all is well for you now. ..............and definitely may this be a lesson to us all! Thank you for telling your story. |
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| Bumping this to page 1 so that others can see how important it is to seek medical attention after getting a thorn in your finger. |
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| I suggest that next rose season, you go to your local health department, or your doctor and get a Tetanus shot, so that something like this does not happen to you again. Overall, something like this may seem trivial, but Lock Jaw is serious and could result ultimately, without treatment, in death. |
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| Wow--how ironic about Papa Meilland's mother! The tetanus shot I got in the ER is supposed to last ten years. I'll give it five. I said in an earlier post that I wish I had never asked the surgeon to operate on my index finger. I can state that even more strongly now that old weather has arrived. It's only October, but my Raynaud's Syndrome is affecting my hands already--especially that finger. Any pressure on that spot hurts a LOT. I guess it figures that poorly functioning capillaries would impede healing. Susan |
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| Susan, I'm sorry about the outcome of this. I've had a splinter for a month but dr. says it will work out. I'm really bad about wearing my gloves, lots of battle scars. I hope things will improve, you deserve a break. Carla |
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| I am going through the same Rose Thorn infection and recovery process and still have tightness in the hand. I was cleaning my hillside at home on a Sunday afternoon and was removing roses at the top where my sprinklers are and got a thorn - I thought I had gotten stung and Monday morning I opened the spot but did not see anything. On Tuesday the hand was swollen and sore when I used it so I looked at it under a microscope and with pointed tweezers I was able to pull out a thorn and cleaned it with alcohol. I was wearing leather cloves but the thorn must have gotten through the leather. Google told me that rose thorns are dangerous. It said that it may be Sophorix shenckii, commonly known as rose thorn disease. This nasty fungus often resides on the tips of rose thorns, on spaghnum mosses and hay. Rose thorn disease has a long documented history in medicine The nurse at work put some Ichthammol Ointment on my knuckle and said I should go to the doctor after I get back to Valencia. I waited until the Saturday to see the doctor. Untreated sporotrichosis shows little evidence of self-healing and is capable of chronicity. Cutaneous sporotrichosis can be cured with a saturated solution of potassium iodide of increased doses titrated to patient tolerance. KI probably works to disrupt the granulomas which protect the yeast from the immune response. Sporotrichosis is a fungal disease present in sphagnum moss, soil, on rose thorns, and decomposing organic matter. My doctor gave me a Tetanus shot at the office and gave me a prescription for a multiple Antibiotic pill twice a day for 10 days plus put me on Potassium Iodide drops until it recovers (up to 6 months and I am into the second month). Rose Thorn punctures are more serious than I ever thought. |
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- Posted by Lisa(lrobinson828@hotmail.com) onMon, Jun 22, 09 at 12:17
| I was cleaning my rose bushes 3 weeks ago and thought I may have gotten poked by a thorn, but then wasn't sure if maybe I bruised it because my loppers are so old that when I cut the limb my knuckles would crash together. My knuckle was tender to the touch immediately, but I couldn't see where a thorn had gone in. My knuckle continued to stay tender to the touch for weeks. Three weeks later, it is swelling up and getting fatter daily. Thank God for these postings. I was going to wait another week, but after reading all these posts I just now called my Dr. and have an appointment tomorrow. Hopefully I'll just need a tetanus shot and antibiotics and it will be all better. |
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- Posted by courtneylauren (My Page) on Fri, Jun 26, 09 at 10:07
| THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR STARTING THIS POSTING! Before Memorial Day this year I was removing some rose bushes that had gotten out of control. I also had spread around some mulch. I had several little slivers from the mulch, and had been stabbed a few times by the thorns of the roses. I removed the slivers and 1 of the thorns. There was one on my wrist I couldn't get out. I figured it would come out when it was ready. After a month, there was a bump where the thorn was. It looked like there was a pea shaped thing under my skin. I went to the prompt care after reading this post and b/c they said they could remove it. When I got there they said they were going to have to refer me to a hand surgeon b/c it was on the nerve. I ended up having to have SURGERY on my wrist to remove the thorn!! It was about an hour procedure, luckily at a hand surgeon that had an outpatient office, so I didn't have to go through this in a hospital operating room. It took them about 1/2 an hour to get the room ready and sterile, etc. I couldn't believe it! All for a thorn! As it turns out it had created scar tissue around it (made a little sac). They were able to get out all the scar sac, except for what was right on the nerve. Thanks again for the posting. Without this, I'd pry be sitting here thinking..maybe I should see a doctor about this.... (P.S. You cannot get liposuction through a small incision in your wrist...I asked). |
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| My wife stuck herself while trimming a rosebush the Saturday before last (its Monday). She didn't complain about it until Tuesday when it started to swell and hurt. By Thursday morning, she couldn't move her 3 fingers on her right hand (the thorn penetrated the top knuckle on her right hand ring finger). The doctor gave her 2 shots and 2 antibiotics and told her to come back Saturday if she wasn't feeling better. We went back to the doctor Saturday because she didn't feel any better so he sent us to the ER. After signing in, a hand surgeon immediately got her ready for surgery. They opened her hand and didn't find the rest of the thorn. They took cultures hoping it was a bacteria of fungal so they could treat it. Well, as of today there is still nothing growing from the cultures. My wife still cant move her ring finger and she is in so much pain that even morphine doesn't do the trick. The Doctor said he is calling the CDC to have them come take a look. At this point, we don't know when they'll be coming to check it out. In the meantime, my wife is still in the hospital and I am getting a little more worried by the minute. Does anyone know what we might be dealing with here? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I figured the more people that knew, the better the chances of getting an answer might be...Thanks! |
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| Brad, how worrisome! I'm afraid I'm no help, but it sounds as though the doctor is taking it seriously, and that's good. Perhaps others here will have helpful information. Please keep us updated. |
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