I've been reading the forums and online and tried so many things- At the suggestion of a nursery, first I used the Bayer 3 in 1 (which I regret, as I wasn't aware it would kill bees and found several dead bees after application) combined with Daconil. But it kept spreading.

Then I read to remove all the infected leaves, which left all the roses pretty much naked, cleaned up the dropped leaves around the base, and added a few layers of fresh compost to the top, and then sprayed with the baking soda/soap/oil/water mix. It seems to be working on those roses, but two of the ones who were healthy (one a brand new baby bare rot one, a little over a month in my possession) have black spot, rust, and one has powdery mildew, too. Not all leaves were infected, but I did remove quite a few that were apparent. I'm bummed, as these were my newly purchased Austin roses.

I'm such a newbie to this- and am kind of at the end of my wits with my naked rose plants. Several do seem pretty eager with lots of new sprouts, but it keeps popping up everywhere.

Any other suggestions of what I should do? I was going to try the baking soda mixture again, possibly with horticultural oil instead of cooking oil. I'd like to stay somewhat natural as I have two kitties who tend to sneak nibbles out of rose bouquets when they're in the house.

I would appreciate any other suggestions. I'm in Zone 10, Sunset 23. Thank you!

You've done everything else right but even so some plants may already be infected but just not showing symptoms yet. So even after spraying some plants will get spots. They already had it but just not showing yet. So when you spray the first time expect to see some more spots break out.

Don't worry about removing all the leaves. They will grow back.

Seil is right, though, if you're going to spray, commit to a product and then use it religiously according to the label instructions. You won't be able to keep all of them totally spotless, but you should be able to make them worlds better than you describe them. Good luck! Kim

A better product is Mancozeb (liquid) or Pentathlon (dry) - both are Manzate. It won't burn in the heat (but it will do a number on open blooms), but it will kill any active blackspot or rust in the area.

After that, you can use the Bayer to keep the disease off in the future. The Bayer is great for preventing powdery mildew, too.

Is the Bayer Advanced Disease Control safe for pets after it dries? I'd really like to give that one a try.

Roseseek, I'm in Vista, CA (North County San Diego). I only know a few of the roses- the ones I added were Ambridge, Graham Thomas (which is very young but doing better than most), and Aloha. I've also got a William Shakespeare coming from Heirloom Roses(ordered before I knew how bad it was in the garden). Of the ones already here I found a tag on Blue Girl, and in the I.D. forum someone guessed one of them is Manetti, which is by far the most healthy rose in the garden at this point. The rest I think are hybrid teas, and a few minis (that aren't so mini anymore).

I'm feeling much better after your comments! Hopefully this will do the trick and I can share some pictures of my not naked rose plants after a while :)

Why do I say "may be"?

Because often there is a time lag between INDEPENDENT health related research on long term effects and U.S. government action.

The links below give examples for Mancozeb, one of the chemicals recommended in this thread.

"Altogether, these results indicate that mancozeb affects the somatic cells of the mammalian ovarian follicles by inducing a premalignant-like status, and that such damage occurs to the same extent in both mouse and human GC. These results further substantiate the concept that mancozeb should be regarded as a reproductive toxicant."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22369882

AND ---------------------------------------------------

"Significance
The results of study confirm that mancozeb exposure can induce genotoxicity and apoptosis in CHLs, thus pose a potential risk to exposed human population."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0024320512000021

----------------------------------
The cite SCORECARD is useful in judging what has been and what has not been determined concerning each chemical.

Many thanks

How much rust/blackspot/mildew do you tolerate? Do you strip the leaves at the first sign or wait until it's heavily affected the leaf? I've just been removing them at first sign since I wanted the roses to come back (there was rust and bs on every leaf on the roses on one side of the garden and they looked pretty bad). When they were planted they were in full sun (some 10-20 years ago, but there has since grown up a monster pine tree from a live Christmas tree that blocks the sun for part of the day, so they don't get as much sun as they did when they were first planted- maybe that could be contributing to their disease resistance?

Also, one of the roses in a sunnier part of the garden was dug up and gotten rid of since it was COVERED in rust. How long do I need to wait before planting a new rose in that spot? We sprayed the ground maybe 3 weeks ago, then layered a few inches of compost on top.

Thanks for your help with my questions :)

"For fungus problems like rust, botrytis, gray mold-

HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, 3 %, use full strength.

(NOTE: A higher concentration than 3% may harm the plant.)

Keep it in its brown bottle and add the sprayer to it.

Spray it on leaves and stems.

Make sure the plants are well-ventilated around the leaves and in the soil."
--------------------------------
H.Kuska comment: I do not recommend spraying hydrogen peroxide without eye and lung protection.
If I were to use it, I would brush it on infected leaves.

I don't strip leaves with blackspot. They will eventually fall off, and then I clean up the mess under the rose. I'm too afraid that even damaged leaves are still functioning as part of the plant's warehouse, so I leave them until the rose tells me that it's done with them.

Ingrid

Ingrid, I'm very interested to hear that you say there is more disease than before. This is my first year trying to properly care for these plants and I have a new-found passion for roses. I am wondering how much it's worth it to "save" my mom's rosebushes, especially since she's not one way or another about it (I'm a bit of a sentimentalist, and she doesn't even remember much about the roses she planted here). I'm personally more drawn to the look of the antique roses and Austins anyways, so perhaps I should plan to replace some of the hybrid teas if they're going to be a pain. This was supposed to be a relaxing hobby! LOL!
Do you have any suggestions in particular for roses that work well in this area? Much obliged for your opinion, and knowing there are others in the area battling with this makes me feel a bit better, I admit. At least I know it's not just me! I would also prefer to do a more natural thing, and no spraying if I'm able to in the future, so would appreciate your suggestions.

Many thanks! You all have been a tremendous help to me :)

Rosemania sells all the stuff I mention on the forum and the ARS itself has endorsed a number of these products (Bayer 3-in-1, for instance). It's a lot easier to scare people than it is to rationally discuss approved products that work.

"Summary
Hydrogen peroxide, well known as an ingredient in disinfectant products, is now also approved for controlling microbial pests on crops growing indoors and outdoors, and on certain crops after harvest. This active ingredient prevents and controls bacteria and fungi that cause serious plant diseases. Hydrogen peroxide breaks down rapidly in the environment to oxygen and water, and is not expected to cause adverse effects to humans or the environment when users follow label directions."
--------------------------
I will repeat my earlier comment: I do not recommend spraying hydrogen peroxide without eye and lung protection.
If I were to use it, I would brush it on infected leaves."

Ingrid

Ingrid, thanks for your generous offer to email, etc. I have a few roses I found on the Chamblee's Nursery site I'll email you about. Thanks!

Just wanted to update that the roses are doing WORLDS better. They're exploding with new growth, and so far so good. I suppose a combination of all the things we've tried helped out. I'm still doing the baking soda spray thing for now, since it looks like that has helped, but I will bookmark this link when I have trouble again so I can go back and re-read all of your advice.

Thanks again everyone for your input in this matter. I truly appreciate it!

2) Beyond 1), I would not worry too much about the effects of reasonable, approved products that you can buy off the shelf (Bayer Advanced Disease Control). Most warnings are specific to the concentrated product, not the diluted spray.

3) Don't be afraid of chemicals. Home brews are often more dangerous and less effective. Bayer Advanced is a miracle product - not just because of its basic effectiveness, but because of its availability. The same crowd around here that suggests all insecticides are bad would like to get rid of all OTC fungicides, as well.

It's best to take a rational approach. Use what's available and works - but follow the precautions recommended on the label. You shouldn't be exposed to anything more worrying than when you fill up your car tank at the gas station.

"Most of the pesticides concerned are produced by German chemical industry giants Bayer or BASF, and include Amitrol, Ioxynil, Tepraloxydim, Epoxiconazole, Iprodion, Metconazole, Tebuconazole and Thiacloprid."

http://digitaljournal.com/article/265134
----------------------------------

Apparently the reason for the ban is: "Due to the potential for endocrine disrupting effects, tebuconazole was assessed by the Swedish Chemicals Agency [3] as being potentially removed from the market by EU regulation 1107/2009.[4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tebuconazole

---------------------------
Title: Combined exposure to endocrine disrupting pesticides impairs parturition, causes pup mortality and affects sexual differentiation in rats.

Authors: Jacobsen PR, Christiansen S, Boberg J, Nellemann C, Hass U.

Authors affiliation: Department of Toxicology and Risk Assessment, National Food Institute, Technical University of Denmark, Søborg, Denmark.

Published in: Int J Androl. 2010 Apr;33(2):pages 434-42.

Abstract: "Risk assessment is currently based on the no observed adverse effect levels (NOAELs) for single compounds. Humans are exposed to a mixture of chemicals and recent studies in our laboratory have shown that combined exposure to endocrine disrupters can cause adverse effects on male sexual development, even though the doses of the single compounds are below their individual NOAELs for anti-androgenic effects. Consequently, we have initiated a large project where the purpose is to study mixture effects of endocrine disrupting pesticides at low doses. In the initial range-finding mixture studies, rats were gavaged during gestation and lactation with five doses of a mixture of the fungicides procymidone, mancozeb, epoxyconazole, tebuconazole and prochloraz. The mixture ratio was chosen according to the doses of each individual pesticide that produced no observable effects on pregnancy length and pup survival in our laboratory and the dose levels used ranged from 25 to 100% of this mixture. All dose levels caused increased gestation length and dose levels above 25% caused impaired parturition leading to markedly decreased number of live born offspring and high pup perinatal mortality. The sexual differentiation of the pups was affected at 25% and higher as anogenital distance was affected in both male and female offspring at birth and the male offspring exhibited malformations of the genital tubercle, increased nipple retention, and decreased prostate and epididymis weights at pup day 13. The results show that doses of endocrine disrupting pesticides, which appear to induce no effects on gestation length, parturition and pup mortality when judged on their own, induced marked adverse effects on these endpoints in concert with other pesticides. In addition, the sexual differentiation of the offspring was affected. This as well as the predictability of the combination effects based on dose-additivity modelling will be studied further in a large dose-response study."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20487043

-------------------------------------
A full 2007 reviewed scientific paper:

"Endocrine-Disrupting Activities In Vivo of the Fungicides Tebuconazole and Epoxiconazole"

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/2/464.full?sid=89cbb2cc-b 636-4c33-bc06-81ecb01b63b5

Tebuconazole is 2.9% of the liquid in Bayer Advanced. The normal mixture rate is 3/4 oz per gallon. My math says that's a normal rose grower's mixture of 0.017% of tebuconazole. That's even assuming you ever inhale or bathe in the stuff.

Good Grief!!

I feel that the main concern should be that the use of tebuconazole is adding an endocrine disrupting chemical to the environment.
-------------------------------
The full Conclusion section from the full paper
Int J Androl. 2010 Apr;33(2):pages 434-42.
is: "In conclusion, the findings from these range-finding
studies showed that combined exposure to the five pesti-cides induced marked adverse effects on parturition and
pup survival at doses where the individual pesticides
appear to induce no such effects. The significance of these
findings for human risk assessment must be emphasized
because they clearly indicate that risk assessment based on
single endocrine disrupters alone underestimates the risk
for adverse effects when exposure is to several pesticides
with common effect outcomes regardless of mechanism.
The sexual differentiation of the offspring was also
significantly affected. However, based on a range-finding
study with a limited number of litters, only cautious
conclusions can be drawn. Consequently, sexual differen-tiation of the offspring, as well as the predictability of the combination effects based on dose-additivity modelling, is currently studied more thoroughly in a large mixture
dose-response study in our laboratory."