Hi there: I can't answer your rose questions, but every year for many years I have sprayed Roundup in my veggie garden to kill weeds prior to tilling and planting without any problems. My understanding of the product is that it won't leach throughout the soil. I do have shrub roses and a couple floribunda roses in my flower garden and always spray around the perimeter of the bed and carefully within the bed to kill weeds. The Roundup never has caused damage to any of my flowers, and I have many varieties, unless the breeze blows some Roundup on the plant leaves and then only the part touched by the spray turns yellow. The plant itself has never died. I hope this is some help to you and good luck with your roses.

I'm not familar with RRD, but, I can tell you it's not round-up damage from a year ago. The round-up residue is long gone.

Round-Up damage can show up the next spring, here is one explanation.

"Roses are also very sensitive to glyphosate (Roundup and many other trade names), which can be absorbed through the green stems in addition to the leaves. Glyphosate damage may appear at bud break the following spring after a summer or fall application that contacts leaves or stems; symptoms include a proliferation of small, narrow shoots and leaves."

From:

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7465.html

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

Good article henry. I was going from the standpoint of I have seen people kill grass with round-up, then dig up that area and plant a few weeks later with no side-effects.
Since the grass must be dug up anyhow, I have no idea why they would have to spray. LOL
Well, holleygarden I hope you get your problem figured out!
Best of luck!

I think what you have looks like normal spring growth for the most part. Keep in mind that in the spring, the temps are variable and one cold night can cause some weird looking stuff!

I've had RU damage and it usually results in skimpy foliate, almost wispy like, so I don't think it's that. I would wait and see what happens.

RRD normally looks worse than that. I've got some roses that make very thorny canes when they are young but as the cane grows the thorns get spaced out more. When I've seen it the cane usually gets very long. I'd wait and if the leaves seem to be developing normally then I wouldn't worry.

In my garden, I look for three symptoms. You've definitely got one- the hyperthorniness that isn't typical of Hot Cocoa.
I think you have a flower bud forming at the end of that cane. Let it bloom. IF it's RRD, you'll see things wrong with the sepals or petals or reproductive parts of the rose.

(Also compare the space between adjacent leave on that stem to the same on older canes.)

Generally, RRD does not show first on a basal cane from underground. Nor does it seem likely that herbicide damage would first show there. It's possible but unlikely. Follow Ann's advice.

Gee. That looks like a Tamora cane. It will be interesting if it comes from the bud union. It's not unheard of for errors to be made during budding.

If it is due to a low dosage of herbicide, I do not think that you would have to do anything now anyway. A low dosage of Round-Up acts as a growth stimulator.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/117916482/abstract

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

Berndoodle (looks like a Tamora cane), a few years ago, Hortico was using random Austin roses as understock, or maybe rebudding over an Austin scion on multiflora.

None of my RRD affected varieties have been Hot Cocoa, and of the one of mine that was probably genetically closest to Hot Cocoa, Julia Child, the symptoms on that one resembled yours less closely than on my other RRD-affected roses (though I caught Julia Child relatively early). So I'm clearly not an expert on the disease on your Hot Cocoa (or an expert of any sort).

Still, I strongly believe that your rose has RRD, based not just on thorniness, but the fact that the thorniness is coming in patches that are associated with redder thorns than normal and also associated with more abundant narrow red leaves in that area, with more red showing on the petioles than in normal Hot Cocoa roses. The termination of the one highly affected cane makes me think of a rosette, with a good many leaves coming out at the same axial or very close to the previous axials. I'm making some assumptions here based on looking at a lot of photos of what I presume to be normal Hot Cocoa roses. I don't see the redder petioles on any of them, and the terminations on the canes don't look like yours either.

The significant amount of red on the petioles are one of the symptoms that more than one of my RRD affected roses displayed. The petioles on mine in the affected areas were redder than yours, but those varieties weren't Hot Cocoa either. That yours has that symptom at all is not a good sign.

I've never seen RRD symptoms start right next to the ground while leaving taller areas untouched; there's nothing odd about having it at the termination of a relatively new basal cane. The most visibly highly affected cane this spring on my Cornelia wasn't even on the plant last fall (when I'm positive the rose had already contracted the disease and wish that I'd had the courage of my convictions then to remove it). Another way of looking at that situation on a new cane is that by the spring, a disease initiated in the fall had spread to the base of the plant, and any canes generated after that are going to also have the disease. And when those newer canes show their symptoms, they do tend to have their terminals ending in rosettes that look something like yours does. My Cornelia's terminal rosette on that new cane looked like yours, but worse. The fact that yours doesn't have drooping leaves yet is not at all reassuring. My Cornelia's leaves had only started to droop on one quadrant of the rosette at the point I noticed the problem. Drooping might well vary with the rose variety and the degree of advancement in its disease. Your aim, of course, is to catch the disease as early as possible without unnecessarily sacrificing a rose that's not actually diseased with RRD.

I kept thinking in looking at its pictures around the net what a lovely rose Hot Cocoa is! I'm so sorry yours is having these problems.

Best wishes,
Mary

Thanks for all the replies. I was gone all day today, and when I got back, I went outside to look a little closer. Ann, the top is not a bloom; it is multiple leaf stems. I took a picture of the top so you could see a little better:

{{gwi:276870}}

It has grown several inches just today, so perhaps Henry's research about roundup being a growth stimulator is right. However, I did notice that the leaves on this are not quite right. In addition to the reddish color, which does not seem typical of Hot Cocoa, the leaves that are developing are sometimes 'curled' and some of them have a smaller 'leaf' coming out on top of the regular leaf. I took a picture:

{{gwi:276871}}

The bottom leaf is curled; the leaf above it has a small leaf coming out on top of the 'regular' leaf. I noticed this on several stems of leaves.

One more picture. This is of the entire bush:

{{gwi:276872}}

I have a Tamora bush, and it does have similarities. However, this cane is quite large around and the thorns are much larger. This is not 'normal' growth.

Whether or not it is RRD or roundup damage from over a year ago, I'm not sure. BUT - let's say it's RRD - I want to get rid of the bush ASAP because this is in the 'main' rose bed, surrounded by rose bushes, and I don't want it to spread.

Let's say it's roundup damage. Will this cane ever be 'right'? Or will I need to cut it out?

I'm thinking, since the offending cane is in the middle of the bush, and it would be impossible to cut off the offending cane with a shovel, I may just go ahead and get rid of this bush. (Better safe than sorry.)

SO - another question: Would it be ok to plant another rose bush in the same place?

Thanks to everyone that replied. I value each of your opinions.

Ann, the top is not a bloom; it is multiple leaf stems.

If you get tons of multiple stems in a very short vertical distance that's what is known as a "witches broom". That also is a symptom of rrd.

Oh! I didn't know that! I thought 'witches broom' was just little miniature leaves and buds. Thanks for letting me know.

I will definitely take this rose out - tomorrow!

But - can I plant another rose bush in the same place? This bed has only rose bushes in it. Putting anything besides a rose bush there would look odd. If this is possibly RRD, are the mites in the soil, or just the rose canes?

Let us know what happens.

Usually in addition to the multiple stem breaks you have miniature leaves & buds.

Witches brooms have more than one cause (including random genetic mutations), so a witches broom all by itself is not necessarily a bad thing (at least, not in a Japanese maple), but on a rose, in constellation with other rrd symptoms, it's not necessarily good news.

My Round Up damage looked a lot worse than that. The leaves were distorted; the leaves here do not. I thought mine was RRD but then the bushes came back normal the following season...

I'm no expert on this topic, but I did have a floribunda last year that exhibited the same hyperthorniness and other symptoms you mention. I cut it out, but it grew back the same. I finally couldn't take it, so spaded the entire rose.

Like you, I worried about RRD. However, in looking at various pics posted on this forum, I sometimes thought it looked more like chili thrips damage--which seemed a bit strange since I associate it with Florida, not Kansas. However, that would not have been good news either--another reason to spade it and get rid of it. Have you heard of any chili thrips problems in Texas?

I think you can plant another rose there, but I'll defer to the experts on that. If in doubt, have you thought about placing a Victorian gazing ball decoration there? Or artfully arranging a couple large sandstone rocks in that spot. I do that in several places in my gardens--cuz I happen to have sandstone rocks that I don't know what else to do with--they look nice there. In place of my hyperthorny rose, I placed a decorative pot filled with dark purple pansies (by midsummer I'll have to replace them with some sun-lover). Of course, I can get away with that because all my bed are a mixture of roses and perennials, so the pansy pot just looks like another variation in the bed.

Good luck.

Kate

Last year, a chili thrips map of Texas had them in two counties in the Houston metro area.

The RRD mites are not soil dwellers.

I dread when the chilithrip range overlaps the RRD range.

I dread when the chilithrip range overlaps the RRD range.

Truly rose lover's nightmare, Ann, isn't it!

Kate

Chilli thrips are tropical/subtropical only, aren't they?

Yes, they are, but if you're getting roses from Texas I would guess (only a guess) there's always the possibility of them appearing briefly (before your temperate climate killed them off).

This guesswork assumes chilli thrips can live in areas where roses are being commercially produced, and I don't know that to be so.

I don't know how widespread they are in Texas.

Well, I went outside again this morning. And, the growth on top does not look to me like witches broom. It looks like some of the new growth on other roses - except on steriods. This cane is very thick (probably 3-5 times thicker than other canes on this bush), is growing at a tremendous speed - it's getting thicker as well as growing INCHES every day. And the hyperthorniness with those red thorns that are not like the other thorns on this bush.

I keep going back and forth. Now I'm thinking 'growth stimulator' from roundup like Henry said.

Either way, I'm like dublinbay - I just can't take it anymore. I don't want to wait to see if I have trouble from this rose again next year. I'm going to dig it up, and plant another. It hasn't been in my garden all that long (another reason it may be roundup instead of RRD), and it is well worth the $20 to go get another replacement. Thanks for the info on the soil.

Chilli trips is not anything I would have ever thought of. I am several counties north of Harris County. I live close to the lines of Henderson/Anderson/Smith counties. The leaves do look a bit like that - but would that account for the hyperthorniness and excellerated growth? A combination of roundup and thrips? Would roundup account for the leaf damage - and the 'double' leaf growth?

Wish you could tell more from a picture, as I have such limited knowledge. Thanks for all the replies. Everyone gave me something to think about and consider.

Perhaps one day there will be a quick and easy test to determine RRD. That would save a lot of anxiety and frustration being felt by rose growers everywhere (especially newbies, like me, that didn't know about round up effects until too late!).

I really think it would be a mistake to dig. Wait and see if the bloom is abnormal or if any other weirdness develops.

Do you belong to a Rose Society ? or know a Consulting Rosarian in your area ? maybe they could give you an expert opinion.... just a thought ................ sally

It looks like a different rose, It just might be Tamora and the leaves look different than the rest of the bush, I would wait til it blooms.
Gemini sends up thorny canes like that all the time. Some more thorny than others.

Here's more about chilli thrips and the damage they cause.

This is a federal report from the USDA's quarantine agency about them. The report includes a map of the regions in the continental USA likely to have a climate where this species could sustain itself.

"the damage they cause"

:(

Possibly I'm overreacting, but I might have recognized some Chillitrips symptoms, not just on one of my roses, but on our rhododendrons and camellias too, symptoms I never saw prior to last fall. I'd been wondering what was going on with those rhododendrons and camellias, and now I might know. It's just a guess right now, but eventually I'll get around to looking more closely at several plants and making comparisons with various disease pictures. One confounding (thing that I suppose is often the case) is that once a plant has been weakened by one thing or another, that makes it ever so much easier for secondary problems to develop... making it more difficult to diagnose what's going on.

Anyway, thanks so much for posting the Chillitrips information.

Best wishes,
Mary

With my hyperthorny rose with strange leaves, I originally tried to wait to see the bloom. Odd thing was that while the cane was over-eager to grow, it seemed to take forever for the bud to open, and when it finally did, it was barely a bloom at all--decidedly underdeveloped and not attractive at all. That was when I spaded the rose.

Kate

Thanks for the chillitrip info. The latest information shows they are definitely close to this area. :(

Mary - I hope you can salvage some of your roses if chillitrips are possibly to blame and maybe not so much so rrd.

Although I have not yet sp'd the rose, I have little hope for it. Again, I appreciate everyone's input. I looked online, and even though Tyler's claim to fame is being the rose capital, the nearest consulting rosarian is over 2 hours drive from here. That makes the value of this forum and all the information we receive here, priceless.

Holly,
You do have the Texas A&M extension service, some of whom are really into roses and rose problems. Dr.Byre at A&M is one person, and Dr. George Philley at Overton Expt Station are very knowledgeable and approachable.

>Mary - I hope you can salvage some of your roses if chillitrips are possibly to blame and maybe not so much so rrd.

I'm pretty certain about the RRD. But am wondering now whether one also might have had Chilli Thrips problems, as it definitely also had, in association with its red coloration and thorny areas, a severe insect problem that might have been due to Chilli Thrips. I guess I'd not be thinking so much in that direction, except for having noticed some unusualness in camellias and rhododendrons too, things I'd not noticed previously.

I noticed something new just yesterday: a camellia that previously wasn't virused had suddenly become a virused plant. (In camellias, this isn't usually a bad thing--lots of great camellias are virused--so that in and of itself is not alarming; I'm just wondering now what insect would have been spreading a virus to a camellia that wasn't virused previously, as this has never happened here before this year.)

Best wishes,
Mary

Mary,
Re the camellia: could the weather this wonky spring have something to do with the expression of virus?
The heat wave last week after a long cold winter (without the ususal January warm up) might have been different enough for the virus to be expressed when it wasn't in past years.
I bought some disposable begonias last week and there was a mottle pattern on leaves that happened to have been shaded out in the shade house of the green house. I only saw it on shaded out leaves even though there were over fifty plants of that cultivar there.
Someone I know who propagates some old roses with RMV says he sees RMV streaked patterns on them when he takes and strikes cuttings even though the plants do often show once they start growing.

Mary,
Re the camellia: could the weather this wonky spring have something to do with the expression of virus?
The heat wave last week after a long cold winter (without the ususal January warm up) might have been different enough for the virus to be expressed when it wasn't in past years.
I bought some disposable begonias last week and there was a mottle pattern on leaves that happened to have been shaded out in the shade house of the green house. I only saw it on shaded out leaves even though there were over fifty plants of that cultivar there.
Someone I know who propagates some old roses with RMV says he sees RMV streaked patterns on them when he takes and strikes cuttings even though the plants do often show once they start growing.

I know my Salet (bought from Roses of Yesterday & Today back in the late 1980's) is virus infected because I can see it on the leaves, but the patterns only show on the spring's first flush of leaves, during the cool but warming weather when the plant's putting out its largest flush of vegetative growth for the year. (New canes arise from the crown after the first flush of bloom is over, but they never show virus symptoms until their first laterals break the following spring.)

Plants have immune systems. Unfortunately, the immune system against the most common form of rose virus functions better at high temperatures than at low temperature. The high temperature does not "cure" the plant of its infection as the virus can exist in the below ground (cooler) part of the plant.

Here is a link that might be useful: virus summary

>Re the camellia: could the weather this wonky spring have something to do with the expression of virus?

Interesting question, Ann. It will be interesting to see what the plant does as the weather warms and all the camellias here put on more new growth (hopefully).

If it's actually related to the weather, though, my best guess for those conditions would be that the plant probably had the virus already when it was bought (three or four years ago) and due to the differences in this past winter's extended bitter cold, it was expressed this year on the leaf coloration. One thing supporting that idea would be the poor health of the plant after original planting; I'd wondered whether it was going to make it or not. The plant appeared somewhat chlorotic, though with one thing and another we did nothing about it, other than to give it some cottonseed meal. That spot had appeared to be an unlucky one for a couple of earlier camellias too. But the heavy rainfall last year must have corrected the too-sweet soil in that spot (assuming that's what was making it chlorotic after all our years of drought here); by the fall I'd already quit worrying about whether the plant was going to make it. Those virused leaves do look glossy-nice now, so whatever virus it's expressing doesn't seem particularly harmful at this point--though perhaps the leaf mottling is just an indication of a heavy effort that the plant had to make to establish itself in the first place with a virus present. Perhaps the leaf mottling now is sort of a side effect of those defenses gearing up of its natural defenses? On the other hand, as far as I've ever seen/read, most of the attractive viruses on camellias do not make it more difficult for the plant to establish itself.

The other interesting thing to think about is that we have three camellias of the same variety for comparison, and though they aren't close to one another, their winter conditions were similar, along with the real heat wave a week ago. This virused one now is the newest of the three Debutante camellias, and as far as I've noticed, the only one coming through the winter showing a virus pattern in its leaves. All three camellias were in close to full sun all winter, with the leaves off the deciduous trees, and all three have a good bit of shade most of the rest of the year, starting around the first of April. This one is located in a spot where we had the soil tested about thirty years ago and found a heavy nematode infestation, accounting for some problems in growing rhododendrons there then. I don't know whether nematodes could have an effect on the expression of a virus or not, but the plant does seem healthier now than I've ever seen it previously; perhaps the winter weather didn't agree with those nematodes? The other two specimens of that same variety have never seemed particularly unhealthy and I've not noticed a virusing on them, though I've not been out looking for that, either; the virus evidence on the one camellia was noticeable at a huge distance.

My theory before reading this idea has been that some kind of new insect capable of spreading a virus within the camellia community is busy here this year for the first time. We've long had one virused camellia that's totally benign, and now we have one more that we just planted about six weeks ago that is also totally benign, so there ought to be a couple of non-threatening camellia viruses available for spreading if a spreading insect happens along.

After reading about Chilli Thrips, I remembered that we'd just had a bunch of roses delivered from areas that might well have some Chilli Thrips. There are probably all sorts of insects that are capable of that; I just happened to have read about the Chilli Thrips after discovering the new evidence of a camellia virus where there'd been none previously.

If I discover anything else in this interesting situation, I'll be sure to post. Thanks very much for your interest!

Best wishes,
Mary

I found this thread googling. It seems my Julia Child rose has this RRD. It is a 4 year old plant that bloomed beautifully the last 2 years. Now it has 2 canes coming from the ground that end in a multi-branched, hyperthorny red mass.

I'm not sure if the entire rose should be dug up? Right now I am cutting these 2 canes below ground level and seeing what happens.

linda - I'm sorry your Julia Child is not doing well. I hope cutting the 2 canes off will stop it. Be sure you look at the online web book I've linked to below. I think what you're doing is perfect for now. You will know later if you need to dig her up.

My rose in this thread, I don't believe had RRD. Possibly roundup damage, and I've learned that this rose is prone to throwing out odd canes.

Maybe some others will chime in with some helpful advice, too. Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: RRD Web Book by Ann Peck

I cut the 2 affected canes down to the ground right after I posted. Unfortunately, several more canes came up with the same problem, so I dug the bush up and bagged it for the trash. Sad.