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The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Posted by dsd2682 10 Florida (My Page) on
Tue, Jun 4, 13 at 10:51

I live in BS heaven, where even the most disease resistant roses get black spot. I am currently aiming for a no spray garden but its tough to love roses as much as I do and be so limited in what I can grow. I'm thinking no-spray may never be realistic for me. More like a (very little only as needed spray garden).
I am willing to spray (its not the work that bothers me) but I have been looking for a less harmful spray than the Bayer Advance Disease Control spray that I've used in the past. The instructions state that you must dress in a "space suit" as I call it, before spraying, (long sleeves, gloves, long pants, hat and face covering) and that you shower immediately after using. I just don't want to be around anything that dangerous.
Recently I switched to Spectracide Immunox. The instructions say to wash hands thoroughly after use (that's it, no space suit). Its also safe for edible plants like fruits and veggies (unlike bayer). I'm thinking this has to be a safer spray. Perhaps not organic baking soda safe (which I've tried and does not work at all) but better than Bayer right?
Has anyone had any luck with this spray (Immunox). Am I just deluding myself into thinking its a better option or is it truly safer since its made to work on edibles and it doesn't require the space suit. It does require spraying more often (every 10 days as opposed to two weeks) but I don't mind the extra work if its not as horrifying a product to use.
I only spray when absolutely necessary. I spray when we're getting 4 or more days of non stop rain and only during the rainy season (May-Sept). I have no problem living with a little black spot, but here its usually not a little, its a lot.

Also, no need to advise on "shovel pruning" I am growing the best roses I can find at this time and am already moving towards a no spray garden as best I can without having to give up some of my most loved roses. I've also already tried the organic rose sprays and not one has worked for me, not even a little bit.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I've also already tried the organic rose sprays and not one has worked for me, not even a little bit.

I agree, dsd!

The conditions in Florida are so unique to Florida that I doubt if the rest of us can help you out at all on this question. Hopefully, there are a few Florida rose growers who will chime in on this question. My understanding from previous Florida rose growers posting on this forum is that you have to spray fungicides if you want to grow roses in Florida. But I may be wrong about that--we'll wait and see what other Florideans say.

My advice is to go ahead and use Immunox this season--and then report back to us whether it worked or not.

Note: I use Bayer but never wear a "space suit"--just shoes, long pants, long sleeves, hat, and BIG sunglasses. And I spray early in the morning when it is often cool enough that I probably would have been wearing those items anyway--well, not the hat or big sunglasses, but everything else. It's not that big a deal to grab a hat and sunglasses to go with what I'm already wearing. But then , in my region, I only need to spray a couple times in the spring and a couple times in the fall, so it probably seems like less of a bother to me.

Looking forward to your "report." : )

Kate


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

In another thread the following was stated (Please note the "My" is not Henry Kuska): "My practical advice is don't use a fungicide unless it is absolutely necessary; if you need to use it, use it as infrequently as possible while still getting the job done. Take some practical precautions: cover arms and legs, put those clothes in the wash immediately after you finish spraying and take a shower--just to be on the safe side. And spray only when there is very little to no wind (usually earlier in the morning)--you don't want a faceful of spray from stray breezes! Don't eat or smoke while spraying--until you have washed your clothes and body.

It is good to remember that these sprays can cause damage if mis-used, so read directions carefully." .................."Final bit of advice: if the BS is minor and just occasional, learn to live with it rather than rushing out the spray. "

Here is a link that might be useful: link that contains the above quote


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

That's all right, henry. You can attach my name to my posted advice. I still stand by it. : )

Kate


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Yes Immunox apparently offers a lower chronic health risk than Bayer. It is rated "not likely to be a human carcinogen" while Bayer (like many pesticides) is rated "a possible human carcinogen." Bayer also is considered a possible reproductive toxin. This suggests that women who are or might become pregnant might want to avoid Bayer.

"Acute toxicity" refers to the capacity for immediate poisoning. Bayer has low acute toxicity to mammals, Immunox moderate. Bayer is more toxic to aquatic creatures and should not be used around water. Bayer is safer for birds and worms than Immunox. Both are safe for bees. Both are persistent in the environment. On deep, sandy soils, Bayer has the potential to leach into the groundwater.

The Bayer label does not call for a space suit. It says, “When using this product, wear long sleeve shirt, long pants, socks, shoes, and rubber gloves.” This is normal PPE that one should use when spraying just about anything. Certainly I would recommend it when spraying Immunox.

Immunox is not as effective as Bayer when sprayed at 14-day intervals, so you might find yourself spraying more often.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Oh man...I just wouldn't use them.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Thanks for the replies guys, but its either a little fungicide or no roses for me. I do spray as little as possible and like I said only when I know its going to rain for days without stopping. I wish there were more South Florida rose gardeners who could give me advice but I don't have the room for OGRs at all and I'm not too fond of them really and that's all the advice I seem to get from Fl rose gardeners. :(
If anyone has a less harmful spray they can recommend please let me know.
Michaelg thanks for your reply it was most helpful.
I dont spray often anyways only when I feel we'll really need it so I think i'll stick to the Immunox for now as its slightly less harmful. Keep in mind that we live in shorts and tank tops down here so long sleeves and pants and socks and shoes and hats and gloves is a whole lotta stuff to be wearing in 85 degree weather (even in the mornings) but i will do what I have to to keep safe. Ugh! I wish black spot didn't exist. Sigh!


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Copper fungicides are considered "organic" and in some respects are probably safer than complex synthetic pesticides. That is, they are less likely to have hormonal effects, cause cell changes, etc. However, copper itself is fairly toxic. It can be absorbed through the skin and accumulate in the liver. You should wear standard PPE when applying it. Copper sprays are also potentially toxic to plants. It should be sprayed at a time when it will dry quickly, and not in the evening. I found the copper product Soap Shield to be effective against blackspot and not too likely to burn. I wonder whether if used weekly it could harm the soil by accumulating too much Cu.

I have to say, I've gardened in Florida, and I didn't consider it too onerous to wear long pants for 20 minutes in the early morning :)


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Michael will know the answer to this: does Immunox treat existing infections like Bayer does?

In my garden, I don't do preventative spraying (except for new, very small roses that can't take our spring diseases yet) at all since I've seen how Bayer works on already-infected roses. It allows me to see how bad the situation gets with each rose, each season. I like that a lot as I avoid a lot of spraying I could be doing.

I'm sure I spray less each year using the Bayer product than I would with one that doesn't stop existing infections. My logic is that the total exposure each year probably gives me and the environment a lower dose of toxins.

Corrections to my logic are welcomed, too, though!


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I got the HT Beverly this year. Beverly won the awards for best HT & most fragrant rose at the Biltmore 2013 International Rose Trials. I've been pinching the buds off, so no blooms yet. The plant looks healthy so far. Thrips is my garden problem now even with spraying and spot spraying. Have you tried spot spraying the roses that have more frequent problems?


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Meredith, no, Immunox does not do as much against existing BS infections, but is mainly a preventative spray. This difference is documented in the dissertation by Emma Gachomo which is online. I agree that it is great not to have to worry about BS getting a head start on Bayer. If you inspect weekly, you can wait until the first spots appear, and just treat the plants that have spots. Bayer will kill the organism, and leaves that have only had spots for a few days will survive. Leaves with older spots are injured enough to die, but they will not be oozing BS spores because the BS inside the leaf is defunct. This feature lets you cut down on spraying. Or if you want to spray preventatively, once every two weeks is plenty.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I live in North Florida, but we also have a high rate of black spot here. I'm a total newbie at this, but I've been spraying with Safer Brand garden fungicide and so far it's worked, to a degree. I haven't seen it but on a few plants and I tend to spray them all once a week or so. It's not completely gone, but it's manageable atm and doesn't appear to be spreading.

That being said, the heat here is just starting to crank up and being that it was 80 this morning at 7 am and around 90 now, I'm betting this summer is going to be a killer. Combined with the lovely humidity we're getting from the churn in the Gulf, yeah...... I expect it to become more of an issue as the humidity is only going to get worse here on the coast.

I also bought Immunox, but haven't used it yet as Safer Brand has been doing a decent job thus far and it is supposedly organic. I wish I could be more helpful and hopefully someone will chime in with results. The reviews on Amazon seemed somewhat favorable when I bought it, but I only trust those ever so much. :)



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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

The Safer product is sulfur. I used sulfur for years. It is very safe to handle and it does help some with blackspot. As it can burn foliage in hot weather, be sure to apply it in the cool of the morning after watering the roses thoroughly. I have used it with daily highs running around 90. Don't know if it is safe when temperatures are rising to 95, probably not. Damage shows as large dry tan areas on the broad part of the leaf that catches sunlight. You can save money by buying dry micronized or wettable sulfur and mixing it yourself.

Contrary to popular belief, heat is not what BS wants. It wants moderate temperatures. Germination occurs during long wetting with temperatures in the 60s and 70s--usually overnight after an evening shower. Central Florida has worse blackspot than South Georgia because summer nights are milder, owing to the oceanic influence.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I use my fungicides in the exact same way (I've been using immunox now). I wait until my plants star to show signs of BS before spraying, or if i know we are going to get 4 or more days of rain non stop sometimes I spray the roses I know are more susceptible. Immunox says it "cures" blackspot which made me think it would save leaves that were only slightly affected like Bayer does but maybe not?
I do this in order to test which roses really are resistant to BS and which aren't. If I sprayed on a schedule I'll never know which ones are keepers for my "no spray or barely spray" garden. ;)

I really would like to move towards a no spray garden. All this talk of fungicides is making me want to even more. This year I have started buying roses only for their disease resistance. I have had good luck with some. Particularly Belinda's dream, Quietness and Queen of Sweden (Ausitn). Also Kordes' Lions Fairy Tale and mandarin ice and Buck's Polonaise have been good so far too.
I have Gemini, Shelia's Perfume and Moon Stone too which are all supposed to be "resistant" and so far so good, but its still too soon to tell. Any good BS fighters in your garden you'd like to share? I don't mind if they get a little BS at the bottom, as long as it doesn't defoliate the whole plant.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I grew roses in central and south east FL. for 38 years before retiring and moving to the north GA. mountains back in late 2008. The first couple of months of growing roses I knew if I wanted to grow the roses that I wanted, I needed to spray to have good clean bushs. That was back in 1975. The stuff we used back then was a little nasty. I sprayed every week for 11 months out of the year. It just became part of my life. Did I always wear the proper cloths? No. The one thing I did do was shower after I was finished. I started using the Bayer once I was convinced I could go 2 wks between spraying. My garden stays clean using the Bayer. Unless you have physical problems (skin, lungs. eyes) I wouldn't worry too much about Bayer being "nasty". Just clean up after spraying.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Tahitian Sunset is a vigorous bush that gets little BS in my garden. Thrips like it.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I think michael says it all. Yes, Bayer might be more toxic in certain circumstances, but you ARE going to spray. You DON'T want black spot. The Bayer will allow you to spray in longer intervals, which will mean less exposure for you and your garden.

I also live in a heavy blackspot area. This year our weather has been a bit weird, cooler and wetter than normal. I've only sprayed three times all year so far. Once when the roses leafed out (which was mid-April) another time right before the rose show in May and just the past weekend. A few of my roses were showing some yellow and spotted leaves, but it was time to cut them back after the spring flush anyway. I cut them back and then sprayed. I'm playing it by ear with the weather to see how often I need to spray. Usually when it's hot as heck in late July/August, I can go 3-4 weeks without spraying.

I wear gloves, long sleeves (shorts, it's too dang hot for long pants), eye protection and a hat. If I do feel some spray drip on me, I rinse it off right away. I treat the spray like bleach or other household chemical that I don't want to get on me. If you are careful, it limits your exposure.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

dsd, the only bullet proof roses in my yard are noisettes, Reve d'Or and Crepescule. Teas also don't suffer that much from blackspot, but will get yellow and spotted leaves. HTs, I used to have a few that wouldn't get bs, but after time, they would be just as bad as the others.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

The safety information on the label is better than nothing, but I recommend that one should look at the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) information,

For the Bayer product it is at:
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/msds/M0920_-_Disease_Control_for_Roses,_Flowers,_and_Shrubs1.pdf

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For the Immunix product it is at: http://www.spectracide.com/~/media/Spectracide/Files/MSDS/Immunox/MSDS96881238845May12.ashx

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My understanding is that the drainage properties of Florida "soil" would be similar to New York sandy soil. http://www.floridagardener.com/misc/floridainfo.htm

New York has banned the Bayer product.
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/fung-nemat/tcmtb-ziram/tebuconazole/tebucon_den_0305.html
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The Gachomo experiment compared Folicur and Systhane. What the effect(s) of "secret" ingredients such as the spreader sticker would have on a comparison of the above relative to the 2 products that are being considered here is a complication. The interpretation of the Gachomo results is further complicated by fact that she used a concentration of active ingredient 1.25 higher than the label recommended concentration for the Bayer product.

(I have not attempted to convert what she used for the Synthane product to the label recommendation for the Immunix product.)
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Gachomo's results indicated that neither of the 2 products that she used at the concentrations that she used completely eliminated blackspot when applied 10 days after the infection was introduced and observed on day 14. The Systane (myclobutanil based) leaf showed considerable yellowing suggesting (to me) that the concentration used may have been too high or the inert ingredient(s) is affecting the leaf's health since I have not been able to find anyone who reports leaf yellowing with Immunix. (If anyone else knows of such a case, please let us know.)
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The following article appeared today.

http://www.clintonnc.com/view/full_story/22763678/article-Disease-control-important-to-keep-roses-healthy

"A recommended spray program includes the use of the following active ingredients: chlorothalonil and alternating with one of the following three fungicides: triforine, propiconazole, or myclonbutanil."

Please notice that an alternation of fungicides is recommended since use of a single fungicide will sooner or later result in blackspot resistance to the applied spray.

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agcollege/plantpathology/extension/kpn/current.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Disease-control-important-to-keep-roses-healthy


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Has anyone used Bonide Copper Fungicide on roses? Is it safe, and does it work?


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Has anyone used Bonide Copper Fungicide on roses? Is it safe, and does it work?


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I grow mostly hybrid teas in zone 5b and for several years I have had very good luck with the fungicide that I have been using. It is an arsenic and cyanide based solution that does an excellent job in fighting blackspot. I spray it every other week starting in spring and I haven't had a case of blackspot in years.

The only downside of this is that for several days after the spraying, I find dead birds and squirrels all over my garden for some reason. Several of my nose neighbors have suggested that what I'm spraying may be dangerous, but hey, what can I do?? Dirty looks from my neighbors are far less annoying then spotted rose leaves:)

Maude


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Ok, just kidding in that last post. Seriously though, I have been using Bayer for about three years now and it does seem to do the trick. I was concerned about using chemicals in the beginning, but after I do my Sunday gardening I always come in and shower and change anyway.

What I like about the Bayer advanced is that it is sooooo inexpensive compared to the other fungicides that I have seen. Since I have quite a number of roses, that does make a difference to me:)

Maude


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I'm a bit north of Florida, but this part of South Carolina has sandy soil and is definitely in the middle of black spot hell, so what I have to offer may be relevant.

Bayer makes a number of products to combat rose disease. The one I like best is Bayer 3-in-1 (aka Bayer All-in-One). Bayer puts all of its products in blue bottles, so you need to read the labels carefully to make sure you get the correct one.

The Bayer 3-in-1 Rose & Flower treatment is a liquid insecticide/fungicide/miticide concentrate that you dilute and pour around rose bushes.

Several people in my rose society go this route to cut down on spraying. Some of them say they have to use the drench more often than indicated in the directions on the bottle.

Personally, I've used the 3-in-1 treatment for the past 6 years and it works fairly well. Still, I do have some HTs that will get black spot in spite of the 3-in-1 drench.

One of the best treatments for preventing and curing black spot is Manzate (aka Pentathlon). It is one of the few chemicals that will kill (not just prevent) established blackspot.

For established blackspot, spray manzate every other day for a week, then resume your regular disease prevention program.

Many hard-core rose growers routinely add manzate to their spray routine.

Personally, I spray roses twice a month from March through October. I alternate Banner Maxx, Bayer and Compass and put manzate in the mix every time. When we're expecting rain or just after a rain, especially in the summer when we get rain almost every day, I may do an extra spray with just manzate.

While some people call me a spray queen, there is method to my madness. I know that if I want to grow gorgeous HTs, they will need regular spraying & feeding.

Fine. I plant all my HTs in one special rose garden. Roses I plant elsewhere around the homestead have to be more disease resistant. And others have to be no-spray because they are in places where it is not convenient to spray.

The sprayer I use most often for rose spraying is a Gilmour Professional Hose End Sprayer with a brass mixing head. It's about $16 at the hardware store. It delivers a powerful stream that gets through foliage. It sprays quickly, too.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Just writing to express a pet peeve, as a non US based gardener. Why do friends from the States insist on referring to pesticides and fungicides just with their brand names and not with the active ingredients they contain? Just for the information of anybody interested the discussion here is about tebuconazole (the Bayer product) vs myclobutanil (the Immunox product). Brand names may differ from market to market and for ingredients not protected anymore by patents (such as myclobutanil) more than one brand names may exist. Also by referring to the active ingredient(s) much more info may be gathered from the internet by those interested.
Nik

PS1 Manzate, also mentioned, contains mancozeb.
PS2 In my experience a myclobutanil + mancozeb combination will go a long way towards producing satisfactory results. Myclobutanil by itself while quite effective on powdery mildew is less effective on many strains of blackspot. Both mancozeb and myclobutanil are considered relatively benign, if such a thing can be said of synthetic fungicides of an organic (in the chemical sense) nature.
PS3 If one follows a strict spraying regime then, IMO, one should rotate active ingredients from different classes (with different modes of action) in an attempt at reducing the chance of resistant strains developing. That is one more reason why the active ingredient must be known. Both tebuconazole and myclobutanil belong in the triazoles (Group 3) so alternating between these two will not help with resistance.

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Mon, Mar 17, 14 at 11:54


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I don't think you will find many posters on this forum who will support these last couple spraying programs.

Kate


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I have had a regular spraying program for a long time. I usually use the tebuconazole as the backbone of my spray program, but I also use chlorothalonil, propiconazole, mancozeb, a few other assorted ones from time to time, along with aspirin and harpin. I usually spray about every 2 weeks. It takes me anywhere from 3 to 4 hours of dragging that sprayer around to spray my garden. Sometimes I add an insecticide, but not usually. If there is a bug infestation, a dish soap solution drowns them quite effectively. What I find that is the key, but variable, component in this whole exercise is the weather and its effect on disease resistance. If the weather has been a gradual warm-up from February through April without wild freeze-fry cycles, the disease resistance and flowering patterns in the plants are much better. I saw this especially in 2012, the year it got warm early and stayed hot all summer with a bad drought. I had very little disease at all that year and several other years when the weather was not harsh. Last year, it started out and stayed cool. I thought it was okay. Then it warmed up good and turned around and froze hard in May with a snowstorm. I had more blackspot last year than I have seen in a long time since I started using the harpin. When plants get set back hard, disease resistance goes down. Same thing in animals and people. Some kind of trauma happens, and disease resistance takes a hit. I do all this spraying because I have found that plant health is critical for surviving the winters. The results for the most part are worth it especially since blackspot is eventually quite debilitating.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I was wondering if prochloraz is used on roses in the States and if yes what people's experiences are.
Nik


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

niki, it's possible that many people don't know the actual chemicals and only know what they use by the brand name or even what the bottle looks like.

When I do spray, I use the Bayer (tebuconazole) usually every 2-3 weeks. I like the Bayer because it is systematic and I can usually spread it out, so I'm spraying less often. And it's effective. I plan to do my first spraying of the year this weekend as many of my plants have leafed out. I have some roses that don't need it and I usually skip them. And I have a butterfly garden that doesn't get sprayed under any circumstances. If I get some black spot or other fungal diseases, I'm ok with that.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I live where BS is a big problem. I've been totally no-spray for about 7 years and have seen a decline/death in many varieties of roses (hybrid perpetuals, bourbons, some Austins, etc) and eliminated many roses from my garden as a result. I can understand why some people would not want to go that route and make the hard choices I've made.

Before that I had tried some organic sprays including baking soda, Neem oil, and sulfur. The baking soda and Neem were not effective at all given our high BS pressures. The sulfur was somewhat effective, but had to be applied frequently (once a week) because it was not systemic and rain would wash it off. I stopped when it got really hot out to avoid burning the rose leaves. Even infrequent spraying of sulfur helped susceptible roses from defoliating until late in the season and they had more vigor to overwinter stronger than not spraying at all.

A rose friend of mine is a chemist and suggested to me that the safest and effective non-organic spray available (that they use too) is Propiconazole, available in Honor Guard and BannerMaxx here. I tried it myself for two years prior to going no-spray and it was very effective and took less labor compared to the sulfur. It only needs to be sprayed every 2 weeks and is systemic. I sprayed less than that and saw good control. I took precautions like wearing eye protection, a respirator, long sleeves, and long pants. But ultimately I didn't comfortable with that and now don't use anything.

Note that if you use a combination product like the Bayer, you are also spraying an insecticide in addition to fungicide. That can have more harmful biological effects and also kill beneficial insects such as ladybugs and bees and harm the natural equilibrium of your garden.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Nik, I have read a lot of fungicide labels, and I have not seen prochloraz sold at the home gardener level in the US. Doing some searches, I cannot find any products sold in the US with this as an active ingredient. I hope some of our resident chemists weigh in.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Just a clarification , Lori: SOME Bayer products are combinations of fungicide and insecticides. But not all Bayer products are combinations. The Bayer fungicide many posters refer to here is NOT a combination--it is ONLY a fungicide.

Anything listed as Bayer 3-in-1 or 2-in-1 or something like that also includes an un-needed insecticide. My recommendation is to avoid those combos like the plague!

Kate


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

The 3-1 is also a drench, not a spray. The 2-1 is granules.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I've been growing roses a long time (1973 or 74). Up until late 2008 in central and southeast FL. I enjoy HT's, so I've sprayed. Eleven months out of the year, every week. Some of the stuff I've used over the years has been banned. Just before I moved to GA. I started using Banner Maxx with Mancozeb every 2 wks. It works. Up here in GA. I alternate with between Banner Maxx with Mancozed and Bayer Disease Control every two weeks. Keeps everything I want to grow clean. Notice I said, "I". Not what someone else wants me to grow. This rose hobby is for "YOU", not someone else. Grow the roses you want to grow. If they need to be sprayed and you are OK with it, spay to keep them clean. I don't grow roses to keep everyone else happy. I grow them to keep me happy. Think about that before you start pulling up roses.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Yeah well, we share a planet....not just inhabit our little bit of space - I find the 'I grow what I like attitude regardless' to be more selfish and belligerent than I would be comfortable with, from either myself or my neighbours.

In internet parlance - just sayin.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Yeah well, we share a planet....not just inhabit our little bit of space - I find the 'I grow what I like attitude regardless' to be more selfish and belligerent than I would be comfortable with, from either myself or my neighbours.

In internet parlance - just sayin.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

ken-n.ga.mts,

Alternating between propiconazole and tebuconazole makes no sense to me in respect of resistance avoidance (both are the same MOA Group 3 triazoles) and it also probably makes little sense to me in terms of increased efficacy. Of course I'm not an expert so I'm all ears on this.
Nik


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Nik---I alternate to help keep any blackspot fungus from building up any resistance to just one type of chemical. I had read something several years ago about certain blackspot spores building up resistance to one chemical if used continuously. It makes sense. So I alternate. Sometimes I'll use the same chemical two or three times in a row before I switch over. All I know is ever since I started alternating chemicals, my roses have stayed clean from April all the way into November when I shut the garden down. I don't use any chemicals that are against the law (local or federal) to use in the home garden nor do I grow any roses or plants that are against the law (local or federal) to grow.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Regarding manganese based fungicides, the following Google search may be of interest.

Here is a link that might be useful: manganese and children Google search


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

ken-n.ga.mts,

As I said, alternating between chemicals of the same mode of action group (MOA) is of little or no use regarding resistance management, as I understand it. Both these active ingredients are of the same group and are very similar chemicals (Group 3, triazoles).

That's one of the reasons I wrote earlier that knowing the active ingredients is useful, rather than knowing only the commercial brand name.
Nik


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

henry_kuska,

Thanks for the link. Virtually all elements that are needed for plant (or animal for that matter) nutrition can be toxic in higher concentrations. Please try to grow plants in a manganese-less environment and see what happens. Concentration of manganese in the environment can increase due to a plethora of natural processes and human activities. One such activity is composting....Mancozeb poses a health risk as most synthetic pesticides and fungicides do and NOT mainly due to the manganese involved (which is not easily broken down to elementary manganese in water afaik). Btw, I can also google and I do. Thanks again.
Nik

Here is a link that might be useful: Mancozeb

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Tue, Mar 18, 14 at 13:23


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Mar 18, 14 at 13:36

As brought up in the one post I would grow hot and wet climate adapted roses like teas and chinas if I was in that situation. When you choose plants that are suited to your site conditions you eliminate a lot of basis for conflict.

Old garden roses are any that are old, this includes many small-growing kinds such as various chinas.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

There are very few roses that will not get blackspot in the southeast and other hot humid climates. Even teas and chinas get it. Some noisettes are resistant, Reve d'Or and Crepescule have always done well for me.

Most OGRs get blackspot in my yard. I'm experimenting with some new (to me) OGRs to see how they do.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

nikthegreek, the link that you posted to mancozeb is undated but one can hopefully get a guess as to when written since it states that: "A recent study...." The reference referred to is a 2001 reference. In terms of chemical safety I consider something around 2002-3 to be mainly of historical interest.

The link below is to a 2013 reply to a Canadian reapproval action. I hope each reader will read the entire article but of particular interest to me is the following: "Mancozeb has not been approved for residential use for many years and the proposed label warning confirms the danger of mancozeb in residential or schoolyard settings:
This product is not to be used around homes or other residential areas such as parks, school grounds and/or playing fields. It is not for use by homeowners or other uncertified users."
I realize that this is for Canada and not for the U.S. (apparently New York has such an ornamental use ban), but I suggest looking at how a chemical is being treated in other nations as our EPA appears to be very slow in reacting to dangerous chemicals.
----------------------------------------
The statement was made by nikthegreek: "manganese involved (which is not easily broken down to elementary manganese in water afaik)".

H.Kuska comment: I do not understand this statement. Are you saying that elemental manganese is the dangerous compound? When scientists talk about the dangers of manganese, they are not talking about the dangers of elemental manganese. The most common oxidation state is Mn+2. This is a small relatively highly charged ion that can fit it in many biological process and cause mischief. See the following reaction:
"Figure.2 Proposed mechanism of dopamine oxidation by manganese"
http://www.manganese-health.org/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/53171/Overview_of_Research_into_the_Health_Effects_of_Manganese.pdf

Another literature example:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0041008X00990884

Here is a link that might be useful: Link for Canadian Reapproval action.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Here we go again. :)


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

This thread is convincing me to stop spraying altogether. Up until now, I've only used copper and sulphur,but still...
henry_kuska,your contributions are always interesting and helpful...


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I have cut down on my spraying. But I can't have roses without it. So I do believe it's worth it to use the most effective spray, one that lasts 2-3 weeks or more between sprayings and be proactive so you don't get an outbreak. Less spray is better for the environment and me.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I live in a humid part of SC. UGH. It's buggy and humid.
Gardenias grow great here, but I am determined to grow roses.
We have absolutely horrible sandy, acidic soil with little nutrients and nemotodes.
I have resorted to growing my roses in big pots.
I will grow roses.
I use Organicide on my rose bushes. I also use it on other shrubs against scale.
It will really help with your blackspot and bugs.
I DO grow in pots, so my roses are not in the soil, they have potting soil, and I use the Specricide bug killer for roses in the pots. It's not Bayer, I buy it at my local nursery, but it's not organic like Organicide, so I restrict it to only pot bound plants.
I like worms and don't want the Specricide in my soil to kill them.
Go to HD, grab a bottle of Organicide and read it.
Totally safe, for pets, kids, people, kills fleas in your lawn, and believe me, it works on your rose bushes.
You dilute it in a spray bottle.
Use every 10 days, or as needed.
Good Luck.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

"Yeah well, we share a planet....not just inhabit our little bit of space - I find the 'I grow what I like attitude regardless' to be more selfish and belligerent than I would be comfortable with, from either myself or my neighbors."

Yup.

I've come to think along these lines: "if you wouldn't put it on your breakfast cereal, you shouldn't put it into the soil or the water or the air".

Just sayin'

After nearly five years of "no spray" growing, I can state that 85% of modern (20th century) roses can not be grown in my region without chemical intervention. Such roses are no longer welcome in my garden. I see a day when we will have no "better living through chemistry" options, and I'm planning to be ready for that.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Paul, you and me as well. There are so many beautiful ones you can grow without chemicals. Yes..it is frustrating at times. BUT I love the bees in my garden and all of God's creatures.

My husband and I have this small snack company and we call on a oil place..What they do there is beyond me..there are huge smoke stacks and so on. They have the most un natural green grass..all season long..even in winter. I always think it looks like a stepford yard..lol. Very weird. Wonder what chemicals they are using on that!


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:06

Well, I used to do the spray-thing, have grown roses over 50 years and tore my hair out here in Fla. One day the spray-man didn't clean his tank and killed most of my beauties.... I did some research and went to some meetings of the Heritage Rose Society in Lakeland, at FSC... and bought some antique roses.... now I have not sprayed for over 3 years, have almost no BS, and the roses thrive with gorgeous blooms... China, Noisette, old Teas are the answer...Louis Philippe, Ducher, Spice, Crepuscule, Rosette Delizy, Mrs BR Cant, Mons Tillier, Prosperity, Rockhill Peach, Belfield, and so many more get along just fine w/o poisons...also Drift roses, Belinda's Dream, KOs.... also, many of these antiques resist the Chili-Thrips, they just don't get 'em at all........ for the roses that do fall victim to the Chili-thrips, Imidicloprid is recommended, a systemic by Bayer, in liquid and granular, good for 12 months and applied in Spring..... just my 2 cents worth on this topic.....sally


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

China, Noisette, old Teas are the answer

I'm glad you found satisfying roses that do well in your region.

Of course, that is not a solution for a large part of the U.S. which is in colder zones. Those roses that do so well in Florida and related areas wouldn't make it through the winter in much of the rest of America.

Kate


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Saldut, for sure. My own root Octavia Hill is in the shade and I'm in the PNW. She does not get one spot and thrives every year.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I hope I don't cause a war with this... but

I use neem to control fungal diseases. It's important to note though, I use pure cold pressed neem and not a distillate product or the laughable serenade. I use it blended with a sticker/carrier (fish hydrolysate) and an emulsifier (a dash of biodegradable dish soap - otherwise the oil is just going to sit on top like un-whisked salad dressing) and I apply it weekly to bi-weekly.

Now, I certainly don't have the same disease pressures as you, but I can say after our ridiculously wet and cold spring last year here in Iowa - I was the only one in town without a spot of scab, black spot, or anything else of fungal nature on my plants.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

Jjstatz29 can you share with us the exact brand of neem oil/sticker etc that you use and where you purchase it? I'd be willing to give this a try. I'm currently pregnant and have a youngin' at home so I have not sprayed in months (8 months to be exact). I dont plan on starting again until after baby is born and then I intend to use something organic. Also just to note, I lost many roses when I stopped spraying, but many also survived and those that did we're mostly on fortuniana root stalk, a few own root and a few David Austin's and dr Huey's (lost about half if these). I lost all that where on multiflora (was foolish of me to even get them, they are the worst for FL I later found out, had gotten them from edmunds).


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I use neem oil from Ahimsa alternative - http://www.neemresource.com/

I buy my fish/seaweed hydrolysate from neptune's harvest
http://www.neptunesharvest.com/fs-191.html

or I buy from brown's for just straight fish hydrolysate
http://brownsfishfertilizer.com/products-page/

Some notes about using...

Neem - you have to keep it cold, I split the gallon container into smaller bottles (it hardens when cold, so you'll have to either dunk the gallon container in a sink of hot water or leave it sitting out on a warm day) - Shake it thoroughly and divide into very tightly closing smaller bottles.

When you plan on spraying - take the bottle out, put it in a sink of hot water until it returns to liquid state. I usually pour the portion I need (.5 fl oz per gallon - a tablespoon) into a bucket and then return the bottle to the fridge, add my 1 ounce (1/8th cup per gallon of water) fish hydrolysate (be sure to thoroughly shake the container before measuring it out - be warned - this stuff is smelly), and scant tablespoon of biodegradable soap - I get 7th generation - it's cheap & readily available.

Then I add about half the water I need and stir it several times in one direction and then switch directions with a dedicated whisk. Pour into sprayer add remaining amount of water needed, close your sprayer, shake thoroughly and start spraying (make sure their are no oil droplets at the top of the solution - neem has to be thoroughly mixed to be effective - think like salad dressing - who likes separated salad dressing? yuck.

I prefer spraying right before sundown or even at night (with a flashlight... my neighbors naturally think I'm nuts) and to the point of runoff. Be sure to get undersides of leaves.

Why near or at night? This is when the stomata are opening up on the plant - in other words, the pores of the plant are open. You'll get the maximum uptake and benefit from spraying at this time and it gives the maximum time for the plant to avoid sunburn. I do this about once a week during times of high disease pressure and then back off to bi-weekly when disease pressure goes down - if it rains, I spray the next day or as soon as possible (assuming it isn't just going to rain the next day... then I wait)

As always - be sure to test an inconspicuous area of the plant and allow a week to make sure their aren't burn issues.

If you, after a few weeks, aren't seeing an improvement in plant health - up your spray concentration by half a percent. Per gallon, for example, if you started at .5%% dilution - go up to 1% (1 fl ounces per gallon, 2 tablespoons).

Few other pieces of advice - this stuff is smelly. Neem has a very strong garlic-nutty smell and fish hydrolysate... well it smells like rotten fish (trust me the cold process hydrolysate smells A WHOLE lot better than the cheaper, less effective hot processed stuff... ugh). Be assured it dissipates quickly - if the scent really is bothersome you can add a drop or two of a fragrance oil - peppermint is particularly effective.

Neem and fish hydrolysate once mixed - have to be used immediately upon mixing - they break down rapidly in solution - if you sprayed everything and have some left, use it as a soil drench or spray it on something you don't normally spray. It'll be glad for it. Thoroughly rinse your sprayer after every use - I fill mine with water and just use it to water plants, silly to waste the good stuff. I try to think of it as being like licking the brownie batter off the spoon.

This should go without saying, but don't spray it on the blooms. Buds are absolutely fine - but blooms and less so buds are much more prone to phytotoxicity (burn). Do not spray during foraging times for beneficials - (shouldn't be too much of a problem at night).

DO NOT spray on host plants for butterflies/native endagered insects - Azadirachtin (the main active compound in Neem) interrupts the molting process of insects that consume it. Butterfly caterpillars, that eat and live on their respective host plants that are treated with neem (or any other spray for that matter) will die. If you don't know what that includes, I'd contact your local extension office.

You should see improvement in just about any plant you use this on. I pretty much use it on everything that isn't a host plant in my garden and this is also the same basic formulation I spray on my orchard. Also, the fish hydrolysate is more than just a sticker/carrier - it's also a fantastic fertilizer - I use the same spray formulation (1/2 fl oz neem, 1 fl oz fish per gallon) as a soil drench aka fertilizer.

Hope that answers some questions

Jordan - Organic/Holistic Orchardist and Gardener

This post was edited by jjstatz29 on Wed, Mar 26, 14 at 10:12


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I had over 150 roses for years and I found alternating sprays was essential.There are newer sprays now but I found Daconil alternating with a Sulfur spray to work well. My friend, Mrs. Lampkin, had roses over 20 years old and she sprayed weekly. Has anyone tried a slurry of cinnamon. I grow orchids now and orchid get lots of fungus problems. Many orchid growers swear by cinnamon. Buy it at Sams or cisco in large containers. The best advice if you live in a sandy soil environment is to make a raised bed with lots of organic material and use roses grafted on a nematode resistant rootstock for a much hardier longer lived bush.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

  • Posted by vasue 7A Charlottesville (My Page) on
    Sun, Jun 22, 14 at 19:18

Usually skip this subject since I've no experience with sprays besides some traditionals like sulfur & copper used many moons ago on fruit trees. Given my ignorance & the range of opinions, hesitant to even stick a toe in these waters, but (here we go) feel the need to share some thoughts.

We all acknowledge we can't grow some roses as perennials in the open garden due to intrinsic climate & site unsuitability, available space & individual practical considerations at any given time. We intentionally eliminate some roses from consideration for not meeting our bloom & growth preferences. Of those we do select, some will self-eliminate despite our care or be rejected down the road for not living up to expectations or no longer appealing as our tastes change.

The most critical of my criteria for choosing any rose is its reputation for health & vitality in conditions similar to my own. Gardening more than 50 years in typically humid & fungal prone locations zoomed this to the top of the list long ago. Heavy physical reactions to all the "-cides" except elemental since childhood prohibits their use, as does my philosophical worldview. So I garden the old-fashioned way, pre sophisticated chemical compounds, by necessity.

From my point of view, the health potential of any plant is expressed by positive response to its environment - nature vs. nurture - and the availability of the elements & conditions it needs to thrive tilt the odds to favor this expression. We all know moving a shaded rose into more sunlight often "cures" its blackspot outbreak, athough fungal exposure hasn't changed, and that roses sometimes outgrow these outbreaks with maturity. Believe boosting the plant's immune system by helping nature provide those essentials allows it to function optimally on its own, so concentrate my efforts on these aspects. (Same principles as human health. Incidentally, fortify my immune function with the internal products of plants' immune systems - essential oils - borrowing from the plants as it were, the core of traditional botanical medicine.)

When we first came to this garden 16 years ago, it had been installed & maintained by a college groundskeeper for 7 years on heavy-duty chemical prevention principles. Extensive shrubbery had been maintained with yearly chunky woodchips atop that of prior applications - 6" worth suffocating the soil without deteriorating though covered in sour-smelling fungus. Couldn't find a worm wherever I dug outside the woods & not a bug, good or bad, in evidence besides mosquitos, flies & chiggers. The few roses were dwindling away under this treatment, bare shadows of their potential. Reversed that trend with organic husbandry & the worms returned. Fed the beneficial microorganisms that fed the worms that till & aerate the soil & the soil web reestablished itself to create an environment in which suitable plants can thrive. For years now, the gardens have welcomed a wide variety of inhabitants that appear to have found an interwoven balance with which I'd be loath to meddle. Beneficials & birds keep the ruffians in check most seasons with an assist from the hose. One year the garden club girls (one fellow joined as I was leaving) spent an entire initial meeting exclaiming about decimation the Japanese beetles wrought over the Summer. Apparently no one believed my surprise & report that only a few spotted here that season not far from their gardens, or they might have wondered what could be different here...

Many roses brought in over the years, some with blackspot or mildew from travel stress, so likely a mix of farflung varieties present. Most got over it, as have those which arrived this humid rainy season, including a spotted Buff Beauty bought locally. Fungals show up here & there in small bouts with minor fleeting consequence (knock on wood).

Still not brave enough to intentionally choose roses not known for their good health, some of those with mixed reviews doing well. Those among the dear departed were dispatched by deer, storms, cold, neglect & seeming suicide. Shovel pruned 2 for RRD. In my book, really not a bad record for all the years & varieties attempted. Saved a lot of bucks & effort counted up over time, alternately spent on new plants & garden stuff. But then, an admittedly lazy gardener relying on simple methods to support health, the weather gods (as do we all) & beneficial energies...

Longwinded way of saying it can be done - growing roses naturally in the humid fungus-ridden Southeast - by way of encouragement to those considering a change of method & solidarity with those already doing it, too.




This post was edited by vasue on Sun, Jun 22, 14 at 21:37


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I usually try to stay out of the discussions of fungicides and discussions of South Florida.

In reference to fungicides, I have never treated a single rose bush with fungicide here - organic or otherwise. I had to give up on some roses; I have a very limited selection; and I add only a few each year.

I try to stay out of South Florida discussions because I know that it is not like here, Central Florida, and from all I've read on this forum South Florida is a nightmare by comparison. However, Central Florida is no day dream.

I'm writing to say that I am very impressed that you are working toward getting away from fungicides. That desire alone is admirable and I want to encourage you to keep working at it.

You asked about other success stories. As is ofen repeated on these rose forums, Souvenir de la Malmaison sings Dixie almost all year long. It has never lost its leaves in any winter since I've had it so it does the yellow leaves thing - the old leaves turn yellow, die, and fall off. Sometimes there can be a noticeable number of them. Mostly it is quite a fine plant here. Kronpriness Victoria, SDLM's sport, is like that here too. Hot Cocoa was doing reasonably well here until I mostly massacred it needlessly in a RRD panic attack.

I usually research and provide links to threads I reference, but I don't have time right now - Roseseek has discussed how stressed roses will succumb to disease attack when they normally would not. I have observed this with Polonaise. When I and Mother Nature together err in quenching Polonaise's thirst, then I quickly see blackspot. Otherwise, it performs well for me too.

I have a grafted Don Juan that given its location where its bare legs aren't noticable, is quite good - especially for blooms. It is the only rose I ever consider cutting for the house because the first time I did it, the bloom lasted at least a week and looked unbelievably nice the entire time.

My Lion's Fairy Tale is and has been spotless since it recovered from transplant shock when I planted it three or four years ago. It has been performing better every year and I must say: I like that in a rose.

I have a rule that I won't recommend (or say nice things about) a rose until it is at least two and half to three years old - I grow own root and it takes a while. There are other roses that I would like to say nice things about, but my rule prevents me.

I don't grow any of the true tea roses, but they are all well touted for surviving without spray. If I remember correctly, someone did a test and found that Mrs B.R. Cant could even be grown by the landscaping crowd.

Good luck.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I am a little horrified, as I'm not a huge rose grower. Have 13 bushes total at one time over 20 years. I only used Mancozeb 750 WG once last Fall, as the Black spot was hitting almost every plant terribly. Other than that time, never remember using anything to treat this disease. One poster said Mancozeb was not available to residential. Then how was it sold to me? I'm residential, not commercial. It left a yellowy powder on the leaves & I did it once a week for three weeks. That was it. I hate, hate, hate using chemicals. Normally I would not have, but the Black spot was so awful. Don't know that I'll be using anything or the left over Mancozeb anymore--not after hearing all this.


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

I see some old friends here. Nice discussion and always interesting. I use Bayer and don't have too many roses that require spraying. No matter the BS, my love for roses never wanes.
I'm anxious to look up something I think Michael suggested and some of the other chemicals here, just for thought sake. Hope you are all doing well.

Carla


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RE: The Lesser Of Two Evils (fungicides) For Black Spot

You have to use a spreader with Manzcozeb.

I've been to no spray gardens here in Atlanta, the Botanical garden has one with many OGR. They may not completely defoliate, but to me they look horrid this time of year. Sparse yellow and spotted leaves. Not the way I want my yard to look.

My routine is to spray early on in the spring when the roses leaf out and then every 2-3 weeks after that. If you wait until you see BS, you will spend more time and more spray trying to get rid of it. Prevention is key. So even with organics, you should use them regularly. I do everything else organic. We just switched to an organic lawn service, I stopped using RU and use this new Ecosmart spray for weeds, if I have to. And I only use organic fertilizers. I don't subscribe to the idea that all chemicals are bad. Too much chemicals, maybe. So I try for a balance.


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