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anyone hybridize???

Posted by andreark 9b (My Page) on
Mon, Jun 24, 13 at 18:47

When I retire (3 yrs) I would like to try hybridizing.

I know it's time consuming and not too easy, but I do love a challenge. I live in the SFO Delta area and have plenty of room to 'tinker'.

Have any of you done this? If so, I would love any help you could give me.

andrea


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: anyone hybridize???

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Jun 24, 13 at 19:31

I do a little bit on a very small scale. It really isn't difficult to do at all. What's difficult is having the patience it takes to work toward a specific goal. I haven't done that yet. I just tinker around with this and that to see what will pop up.

There is a forum on here called "Propagation and Exchange" that has a lot of threads on how to do it. There are probably as many ways as there are hybridizers, lol. You just have to experiment and see what works best for you.

There is also a site called "Rose Hybridizers Association" that has great info and lots of like minded people.

I'm thrilled this season because I had my very first cross bloom! Up until now I've been using open pollinated hips so this was a big step for me. It's a cross between Trump Card and Crimson Bouquet. What do you think?

Here is a link that might be useful: RHA forum


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My rose hybridizing information can be found in several links on the left side of my web page.

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above


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Gorgeous!!
This is something I want to try & hope for as amazing of results as I have seen here. I have a nice hip developing, though I can't remember what it was pollinated with! I shall be documenting the data nex time!! :-)


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RE: anyone hybridize???

great looking rose Seil!
I'm contemplating hybridizing also with a couple specific goals in mind (my secret!) .

Keep us posted on your creations everyone!


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RE: anyone hybridize???

You honestly don't have to keep any secrets. In the history of roses there have actually only been two or three instances of roses being raised by different breeders, from documented parents, which have been so similar they have been deemed interchangeable. Kordes raised Iceberg from known parents. I read years ago, he repeated that cross many hundreds of times and never raised anything approaching the quality of the original results. Jack Harkness wrote he envied Ralph Moore for his results using Mlle. Cecile Brunner. Harkness could never get anything from her. I can repeat every cross you make, and very likely never get anything close to what you raise from it. Nothing has to be "proprietary", despite what some commercial breeders feel. Discussing ideas with others with similar interests often leads to ideas you may not have thought of, and even offers of breeding material not easily, or even possible to find otherwise.

Andrea, cross pollinating roses and raising the seeds are EASY. It can be as time consuming, difficult, involved, scientific and tedious as you choose to make it. Information exists all over the place, even You Tube. There are as many methods as there are for planting, pruning and any other facet of rose culture. If you find it interesting and helpful, please feel free to browse this entry on my blog. I'd had several questions regarding what I do to collect and spread pollen, so I put this there to help answer them. It is, by no means, exhaustive concerning the subject. But, it is easy, time saving and fun for me. If it helps you and you wish to use any of it, be my guest! In my opinion, nothing in gardening comes close to seeing your new "babies" grow and flower. Enjoy! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Pollinating Roses


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RE: anyone hybridize???

Seil,
That is a very beautiful rose. I'd like to know why you selected the parents.

Henry and Kim,
thanks for the links. They are just what I need.

Kim,
I already know the two roses I want to cross. The first is my favorite as far as beauty, and the second (no slouch as a beauty either) is my favorite as far as lasting power and shape and texture of petals. Pristine and Brandy would be the first two that I would 'mate'...

Both have been successful parents - Marilyn Monroe &, St. Patrick from Brandy. And Diana Princess of Wales & Pope John Paul from Pristine.

Hugs and Smooches to you all,

andrea


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Seil, that is one lovely rose - it's bright and cheerful without being at all garish. There's a lovely array of petals and it's distinct from other roses that I've seen. What a great testament to the fun of hybridizing - now you get to name it as well.

I had visions of hybridizing when my neighbors had a greenhouse, and then put their house on the market. Go figure, we weren't willing to buy the whole house for the greenhouse, and the new owners have taken it down (sigh). Hybridizing is something that'll probably wait for retirement and many years down the road at that.

Cynthia


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I love playing mad scientist! Tom McMillan, who bred some pretty nice roses got me started doing this. I registered my first non-sport last summer, and am using this rose to try for some interesting bi-color roses.
Here is my first registered non-sport rose;

Seedling3 photo CarolynKuhnlein3.jpg


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RE: anyone hybridize???

Andrea, you would benefit from a premium membership to Help Me Find. It permits you to access the lineage portion of the database so you can see what made what you wish to consider crossing and what each has created. I understand the logic behind your planned cross. Those two roses share a common ancestor, First Prize. Any idea how First Prize performs in your climate? By crossing these two, the results will be half First Prize, which could be a good or bad thing.

Brandy is listed as being susceptible to black spot. From experience here, mildew can also be an issue.

Pristine is listed as being 'very disease resistant'.

First Prize is listed as ' susceptible to disease, susceptible to blackspot , susceptible to Mildew'.

There is a good chance by doubling the genes from First Prize you could be increasing the susceptibility to black spot and mildew in the results. They may have pretty flowers, but they could also have greater fungal issues. I'm not recommending not to make the cross, because it can be very educational and it might even give you something you really enjoy. My hope is to show you a possible way of considering what you cross with an idea toward improvement of the basic plant's health. Ralph Moore's advice was to always "make a good plant first, because it is always easy to hang a pretty flower on it later." Kim


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RE: anyone hybridize???

Wow! I would die and think I had gone to heaven if I had
bred that rose...(I love yellow roses) I have only Oregold and St. Patrick (haven't seen him yet). And Oregold is rather weak where I live and doesn't last on the bush long. That's why I got St. Patrick. Brandy, my favorite in the world, is one of his parents and the longest lasting rose I've seen. My new gardener, who knows a lot about roses, asked it he could steal my Brandy.

andrea

What are the parents of your beautiful progeny?

andrea


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RE: anyone hybridize???

Wow! I would die and think I had gone to heaven if I had
bred that rose...(I love yellow roses) I have only Oregold and St. Patrick (haven't seen him yet). And Oregold is rather weak where I live and doesn't last on the bush long. That's why I got St. Patrick. Brandy, my favorite in the world, is one of his parents and the longest lasting rose I've seen. My new gardener, who knows a lot about roses, asked it he could steal my Brandy.

andrea

What are the parents of your beautiful progeny?

andrea


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RE: anyone hybridize???

Kim,

I already have a premium membership. And I know that First Prize is on both Brandy's and Pristine's trees. But since I already have them, I didn't think about researching First Prize further....Oh drat! I have First Prize and am totally UNDERWHELMED by her, I should have considered.it. And yes!!, First Prize has more disease problems than any of my others. Both FP and Oregold are scrawny. But at least Oregold isn't spotted.

I have a lot of paperwork on some of the more famous hybridizers and their work. I will have to do a lot more research before I try making 'rose babies'.

Please keep your comments coming, , , I will need them.

andrea.


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RE: anyone hybridize???

Wonderful, Andrea! The first thing I have always done when "discovering" a rose which impressed me has been to look up what's behind it. See what it looked like, grow it if possible and evaluate how it performed for me. See what else it created and how they've been judged in similar climates. You can often discover some of the stronger traits a rose passes along by looking at its offspring. You'll quickly find you can often "see" ancestors in the results and make a rather entertaining game of it. Keep track of what you think you see in a rose then look it up to see how often you're right.

You'll also discover lines of weakness. Playboy was a break through rose. Extremely fertile and very popular, it was used extensively for breeding new roses. In climates which don't support rust, it is a marvelous rose. Where rust is an issue, it's Playboy's Achilles' Heel. I avoid growing and particularly, breeding with roses containing Playboy, with one exception, Gina's Rose. She's half Basye's Legacy, which possesses great potential for excellent health and elimination of prickles. But, I'm very careful to avoid using it with other lines which have demonstrated a potential for rust issues. It's very much like breeding animals. You research the lineage in hopes of discovering the strengths and weaknesses to prevent homogenizing the weaknesses. As dog breeders well know, "recessives are forever." Inbreeding quickly eliminates dominant traits, homogenizing the recessive ones which often leads to some extremely bad results. Once the recessives become the only traits, you're best off by dumping the whole line and starting over fresh because it's nearly impossible to get rid of the homogenized bad. Many mauve roses suffer from this problem. Many breeders have back crossed to obtain particular traits they sought and brought too many other negative issues in with what they wanted. That's one reason we've been 'blessed' with so many weak, disease ridden garden roses. We got the high centered, exhibition flower in just about any color imaginable, but at what cost?

I keep an eye on the traits I wish to carry forward, but I seek them from unrelated breeding lines as much as possible.

Actually, before you retire and begin pimping pollen, watch to see which of your roses set hips easily by themselves. HMF can help you determine which of your roses made good mothers (seed parents), but climate plays a large role in that success. See what sets hips easily without help, then start planting some of those self set seed to practice germinating the seed. They come up in Nature all by themselves, but "we" make it difficult and make all manner of mistakes which often result in germination failure. Take this time to practice raising the seedlings so it becomes easy for you. Waiting until you've spent the summer applying pollen before figuring out what will make raising the seedlings easy where you are is like waiting until the day before traveling around the world to buy that new camera you won't know how to use. Don't shoot yourself in the foot. Planting seeds now will quickly teach you what works easily with the resources you wish to dedicate to it before you have created your own seeds.

Using the roses in your garden which set seed easily will also show you what some of your initial seed parents should be. You'll find some just won't accept pollen nor create viable seed no matter what. Some are just genetically incapable of being "mothers". Others seem as though you can pollinate them with dirt! Why waste time, energy and pollen on those which refuse to cooperate? You already have some roses you like and which have characteristics you wish to incorporate in your creations. Right now is the time to figure out which ones make the best mothers, and how to be a good seed raiser. Neither requires much money, time, space or effort and can easily be accomplished while working long hours before retirement. Rose breeding does require some time, but not enough to occupy your retirement! Learn these preliminary steps now so when you retire you can start making those crosses and KNOW you've done all you could to stack the deck in your favor for success. Nature is going to trip you now and then, that's a given. Sometimes no matter how well you've prepared, the weather or some other factor gets in the way and prevents the germination you though you'd have. Knowing how to plant and raise them before you start generating seeds eliminates quite a few of the "why didn't it work?" questions, making it easier to figure out why something didn't work. It also gives you self confidence. I don't know about you, but I LOVE being enabled, almost as much as I love enabling! Kim

This post was edited by roseseek on Tue, Jun 25, 13 at 18:50


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RE: anyone hybridize???

Kim,
I couldn't even finish your post before I sent one myself. here was just too much 'mental triggering' reading your nfo. So before I forget, Are there any other traits in HTs that are concurrent or simultaneous with disease susceptability?

In dogs (Airedale owner for 35 years,,not the same one.) there are sometimes little 'signs' on a pup that will tell you about an inherent weakness in the breed.

more later-

andrea


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Kim,

My head is swimming with one million words.... If you were talking about cheeses or sourdough bread, I would have no trouble assimilating your words. But this is not one of my arenas..So help! A little brick road would be much appreciated.

Eg.
1) Don't deadhead and wait to see if the bush sets hips.
2) Sorry, that's my limit....DON'T LAUGH!!

So ok, you can laugh.

Later, after I soak up more info.

andrea


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Kim,

My head is swimming with one million words.... If you were talking about cheeses or sourdough bread, I would have no trouble assimilating your words. But this is not one of my arenas..So help! A little brick road would be much appreciated.

Eg.
1) Don't deadhead and wait to see if the bush sets hips.
2) Sorry, that's my limit....DON'T LAUGH!!

So ok, you can laugh.

Later, after I soak up more info.

andrea


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RE: anyone hybridize???

" Are there any other traits in HTs that are concurrent or simultaneous with disease susceptability?"

It isn't that the high-centered form is concurrent with or "requires" disease susceptibility. It is the pursuit of that goal at all other costs. Much like the breeding for perfect form and coloring for German Shepherds resulted in chronic hip dysplasia and similar examples of weaknesses and disease susceptibilities in other breeds being created and accepted in order to force them to fit the artificial definition of "perfection". At least with plants, it isn't cruel to discard the "rejects".

The only trait-genetic disease susceptibility example I can think of is between the garnet-red, heavy velvet texture, heavy Damask scent and weak peduncles with mildew. Think Crimson Glory and you have the image. For generations, breeders have sought to produce a strong stemmed, mildew free, velvety, garnet red, Damask scented HT. You can have disease resistant, velvety garnet red without the scent. You can have the healthy, Damask scented Cardinal red and pretty much every other permutation you can think of, but none have succeeded in combining all of those traits in one rose.

" If you were talking about cheeses or sourdough bread, I would have no trouble assimilating your words."

I don't know quite how to tell you to accomplish it, but if you can think of this in terms of breads and cheeses, it will become crystal clear. Sounds weird, but that's how my brain works. Once I understand one thing, and I can begin considering another subject in similar terms, the whole just flops open, revealing itself. Like understanding Latin and then all of the Latin based languages 'speaking themselves' to you.

"1) Don't deadhead and wait to see if the bush sets hips.
2) Sorry, that's my limit....DON'T LAUGH!! "

Who's laughing? I know, I hear the screeching of brakes.... I MUST dead head or they won't flower. Well, to a point. They won't flower AS HEAVILY, and they will probably slow their growth a bit, but you're finally working with the plant, instead of against it.

Continually dead heading, fertilizing and watering is forcing the plant to constantly ovulate. You're practicing birth control on the plant by removing the potential pregnancies. Shift your focus. NOW, you want to see which ones are good at being pregnant. Of those which are good at forming hips and seed by themselves, you'll then discover which ones make the most successful seeds, those easiest to germinate.

You'll likely find some which make many seeds, with very few germinations. Some may make only a few seeds, but many, or even all will germinate. That can make a huge difference. I'd rather have a harem of a few good "mothers" who accept pretty much any pollen I put on them; generate fewer seeds which have much higher percentage of germination. Why plant a hundred seeds to get twenty seedlings when you can plant thirty and get twenty?

The year I really went OCD about pollinating, people asked if something was wrong. My previously dead headed garden suddenly wasn't. One went as far as suggesting it appeared 'abandoned' because it wasn't "manicured" as she was used to finding it. I pollinated 3,000 blooms by hand that summer. When you do it on your two days off, and you're spending eight to ten hours a day, twice a week pollinating and watering, what time is there for manicuring? The garden wasn't as colorful, because I wasn't pushing them to flower (ovulate) as constantly as they were being previously pushed. It really IS a strong shift in focus. Kim


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Holy cow mgleason! that is a gorgeous yellow!!! Let us know when you begin to propagate, would love to have one of those! Have you named it?


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Ok Kim, so I normally fertilize, compost, and deadhead regularly. What exactly is the first step? Do I stop deadheading ALL of my roses to see which ones make hips, or do I just stop deadheading the ones I want to breed? I know from info that I already have, that some of my babies make good seed parents. I have paperwork that shows this. (I don't know where I put it, so I will have to go 'digging' for it. ) So which is it, stop deadheading ALL or just some.?

I will also search my 'buried' info for the next step to take after my chosen rose/roses have produced hips.

Goodnight....It's 4:30 am and I have to get back up at 6:30.

andrea

andrea


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Kim,

So I couldn't sleep until I found my buried papers.

One of the articles I have is "Hybridizing For Fun" by Gail Trimble. I would like to know what you think of this article. If you haven't seen it, I could scan and e-mail it
to you.....If that's not a big bother!!.

Now maybe I can sleep. Yes, I know about OCD, first hand.

andrea


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Andrea and t-bred.

Thanks for the kind words. I wanted a good, disease resistant and winter hardy yellow HT I could name in honor of my mom, and hopefully use as a breeding parent in order to come up with some bi-colored/striped roses. So far so good on the disease resistance, and it has survived 5 winters now much better than most of my other yellows (Aztec Gold and Yellow Queen Eliz. excluded). It is Apertif X Sunset Celebration. Of course, I have not achieved my goal of a good bi-colored/striped rose yet, but I continue the quest...

I sent one out to John Bagnasco last fall and I think it will be included in the Coastal California rare rose auction this year.

Here is a link that might be useful: Carolyn Kuhnlein


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All of that is up to you, Andrea. If you already have ideas what you wish to use for seed parents, focus on those. If you have questions about others, or even all of the roses you grow, add the ones in question. You'll find not all roses will set seed everywhere, in every climate. Some are highly climate specific while others are decent to excellent seed setters nearly everywhere. The article you mentioned is fine. As I said, you'll find almost as many suggestions, methods for this facet of rose growing as you will for all the others. All roads get you where you want to go, which is great. It permits you to choose how involved, tedious, "scientific", time consuming, etc. you wish to make it. You know how people are. Some like making anything they endeavor very involved. Others (like me!) keep it as simple as possible. Both are "right". It all depends upon what you find works well enough for you. Kim


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mgleason,

Oh be still my heart! How fantastic and exciting. You are on HMF. Well Carolyn Kuhnlein deserves it. What a beauty...I wish you well on all future rosing. Where is this auction? For me, your rose is a beautiful as it can get. (I don't really like striped roses). Please keep us
all updated on your beauty.

Kim,

Thanks for all you help. I will get started as you suggest. And I will definitely let you know how it's going.

andrea


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RE: anyone hybridize???

  • Posted by hoovb z9 Southern CA (My Page) on
    Wed, Jun 26, 13 at 12:17

this site is good too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jim Sproul's site


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RE: anyone hybridize???

Thanks hoovb,

I've added it to my favorites. I work during the week so I don't have a lot of extra time to play, but I certainly will be on that site come Saturday.

andrea


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Andrea,

It is linked below. A great auction with great plants.

Here is a link that might be useful: CCRS Thirteenth Annual Rare and Unusual Rose Plant Auction


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RE: anyone hybridize???

thread link

Here is a link that might be useful: Creating more O.G.R.s


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RE: anyone hybridize???

thread link

Here is a link that might be useful: anyone else interested in breeding Portlands


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RE: anyone hybridize???

thread link

Here is a link that might be useful: Seedlings are about to bloom


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RE: anyone hybridize???

thread link

Here is a link that might be useful: 2013 Seedlings are about to bloom


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RE: anyone hybridize???

thread link

Here is a link that might be useful: Another interesting 2013 seedling


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RE: anyone hybridize???

Forum Link

Here is a link that might be useful: Rose Propagation Forum


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