But I see your point, it seems counter-intuitive that more than one change should happen at once,

My Blue Girl is not own-root. The graft is not buried beneath the soil. (It will be come wintertime.) I noticed tall, candelabra-type sprays that sprang up this month, with a different form to the flowers. At first, I attributed it to diminished bloom production due to the extreme heat we've been having. However, when I worked in the rose beds last week and applied bone meal, I noticed something when I pulled the mulch away from the base of this rose.

This first photo is of the entire bush from the side. The cane I'm wondering about is the long, straight, tall one on the left side of the photo.

This second photo shows the origin of the cane. It is NOT coming from above the graft, or anywhere near the graft for that matter. However, it appears nearly similar to the original plant except for its tall, upright habit and reduced petalage.

Is this a sport? It's not really a sucker, is it? Wondering what to call it since it's not looking anything like Dr. Huey, yet it seems to originate from under the graft.

There's a quite famous incident with Hortico many years ago where they used Bride's Dream (a hybrid tea) as their rootstock on a bunch of Austin roses. Go figure -- maybe you have something wierd like that used as rootstock.

Kathy

I've had other striped roses revert: Carless Love ended up never producing any stripes; looked like Mrs. Charles Bell. My Memphis Music I ordered 3 years ago produced just a couple blooms with a little bit of yellow striping. Since then it has grown nothing but solid blackcherry blooms, though with a bit of muted yellow on the reverse side of the petals. I'm guessing that is just like Memphis Magic, though I've never bought that one directly. I've considered those to be reversions. Does this "scentless Delego" count as a reversion? Anyone know?

Mike,
It's not unusual for a sport to have some blooms that are similar to the original parent.
To arbitrarily call your sport of Pink Intuition, Delego, would be wrong. If your scentless Delego remains that way after repeated propagation, you could have an unscented sport of Pink Intuition that looks like Delego.
Some varieties sport rather easily and often and many are one time occurances that don't repeat.

Of the few sports that I've grown, the only one that might be said to be darker than its parent is the very pale mauve 'Natasha Monet' which sported from the very white 'Crystalline'. Among OGRs, pale pink 'Souvenir de la Malsaison' sported 'Malmaison Rouge', which is described in the literature as being a very dark crimson (and which many folks now believe to be extinct). Can any of you think of other sports that are darker than their parent variety?

I'm providing a link to some interesting material on sports written by Malcolm Manners.

So I don't think "always lighter" holds up. Can go either way. That said, going lighter probably predominates, however.

Kathy

It could be that this specific cane will show blooms identical to the rest of the plant...can't tell at the moment because the tall, lanky cane was the only one blooming during this heat wave. The odd flower form could indeed be due to heat & not mutation. We'll see!
---Laura

I've also seen "mutations" on some of my roses every once in awhile, over the yrs. But for the most part, they're just temporary. Usually it's after we've had some weird or unusual weather.

I understand that my 'rogue cane' is not a sport by definition yet. My main question was regarding the origin of this cane. On a grafted plant, is it possible to have a "sport" arise from below the bud union? I thought that only suckers came from that point.

P.S. I should be so lucky that my rootstock is Bride's Dream, because that's on my wish list for next year! :)

Summer Fashion - most of us have known Karl for years, and we know he is knowledgeable. Why you feel the need to yell at people out here is not understood.

Guess I'll keep an eye on this one and see what it does through the rest of our season.

In lieu of giving me anything in return for my cuttings, perhaps Mr. Gleason will be generous enough to send cuttings of 'Magic Lantern' to our friend Pat at Rose Unlimited so that she might return this fine rose to commerce and make it available once again to others.

What's more, there's a couple of very unstable sports that are none-the-less sports. I'm thinking here of Careless Love (yes, mine goes back and forth also between solid and striped), Memphis Music (which goes back and forth between stripes and solid burgundy), Sequoia Twist, Spring Fling, which sometimes reverts to Gizmo, and then goes back again, and which was known to do that by the propagator and in the AARS trials, where it continually did that in the AARS trials' beds all over the country. See my pics on HMF for what that rose does. My favorite of the "unstable sports" however is Surprise, Surprise on which no two flowers are ever the same -- goes red to lavender to stripes and all around that in many variations. Mine died but I am looking for another. I think sports that are unstable can be quite charming, actually, because you never know what you will get.

But the fact that these roses like to change it up does not disqualify them from being sports. What Karl was trying to exclude from the "sports" definition was (I think) just those roses that throw an aberrant bloom once in awhile -- usually in response to differing weather conditions. Those are just that -- aberrations -- not sports.

Kathy

Masha

I sent multiple cuttings of 'Magic Lantern' to RU several yrs ago, but Pat notified me that they had failed. (They were autumn cuttings, yours were post-first flush spring cuttings.) I'm now struggling to nurse my old ML into recovery from extreme vole damage, & am unable to send additional cuttings to Pat. If you'll be kind enough to send ML cuttings to her, then I'm MORE than satisfied & am quite willing to call things even . . .

In a few weeks, I'll be sending cuttings of a couple of other rare roses to RU & I'll let Pat know that you'll be supplying some fresh ML cuttings, okay?

So sorry for my behavior here. Thanks (I guess) for that slap on the wrist.

Thanks also for the tutorial on where I can click, and for the refresher on forum etiquette. I needed that.

I have to admit, though, that I'm essentially uneducable at this point. Like you, however, I do retain a rather remarkable command of the obvious.

I know whatcha mean about clutter . . . At least two recent threads here are cluttered up with a bunch of stuff about cannabis, you know? But, I just MYOB and go on my merry way.

Have a nice day karl babst rosenut -- and, again, thanks so much for your concern about my 'awareness'.

As for sports, if you're going to use the terms "sport" and "mutation" interchangeably then yes, any aberrant plant behavior would be a sport, stable or not. My roses often have different looking blooms but I know that they are not going to repeat and don't bother trying. I just enjoy the oddities when they happen. It adds some fun to watching my roses grow!

This was a recent bloom on my Knock Out.

You never know if a sport is going to be stable unless you try. When an Earth Song sported a few years back I quickly rooted it and it has been stable ever since...

Vic's Refrain

ML has been in my garden for abt 12 yrs, & has been among my favorites since it produced its first bloom. My damaged plant has made a half-hearted recovery, & I'm now attempting to root a number of cuttings in the hope that I'll have at least one in reserve.

If I succeed with these cuttings, I'll send any extras to RU and to one of the vendors I deal with on the West Coast. It's a fine rose, & I'm hoping I can help make it available to even more gardeners than the ones who are now growing & enjoying my plant's progeny.

Of course I'm going to propagate a rose in my garden that's been there for over a decade and that can't be replaced.

And of course I'm going to supply cuttings of the rose to vendors that may be interested in passing it along to others. Check the listings of modern roses offered by the various own root suppliers. Many recently introduced and patented varieties are to be found among their listings. Those folks have been in business long enough to know what they're doing.