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serenasyh

Garden tragedy-toxic Sevin has wiped out my Dad's honeybees

serenasyh
14 years ago

Everyone, I am very sad to report that Sevin has struck so close to home... I have written a few times on this forum regarding my concerns about the dangers of Sevin (otherwise known as Carbaryl) and have begged/pleaded that if anyone is using this stuff in their garden to please not use this terrible product... Unlike other pesticides, Sevin will wipe out entire colonies of bees. What happens is the bee carries the poison back to the hive if their body contacts it, similar to the way ants will carry the poison back to the nest...Sevin is outlawed not only in Europe but other countries as well, but sadly is the 3rd! most popular insecticide in the U.S from what I've researched online...

Well, every Friday night I visit my parents and last night, my Dad suddenly mentioned to me that he saw 3 dying bumblebees on the ground, they were just laying there struggling and that for the first time in 31 years there have hardly been any bees in his garden (his yard is overrun with clover and tons of wild honeysuckle and lilacs)...He knows how crazy I am about bumblebees and told me this... I told him that there are only 2 pesticides I know that can cause this...Neem oil and Sevin... I said Neem oil will kill bees only if it is in immediate direct contact with the bee with no drying out time but that it was Sevin that will completely destroy an entire colony. My Dad does not use pesticides or weedkiller at all. He told me, oh no! This year their house were overrun by ants that the normal bait traps inside their house could not take care of... Well, they went to Walmart to look for a different ant poison. The person there told them that the only way to get rid of the ants was to spray Sevin outside their house...Now my Dad no longer has bees in his garden...

I am sad, sad, sad... so am once again I am sending these links that directly reference the dangers of Sevin / Carbaryl and how it obliterates our bees... So when you use pesticides, be sure to check the ingredients to make sure they don't have carbaryl listed.

dangers of Sevin from Wikipedia

online dictionary link of Sevin Carbaryl with other accompanying links

What I'll be trying to do these next few days is trying to contact Walmart... If everyone here were to speak up or write to Walmart, perhaps it might bring it to their attention that this product is not a good product? My dad told me ironies of ironies, just this week, Walmart has been promoting itself that it is "Going Green"... Perhaps if it was just brought to their attention that they were carrying such a lethal product maybe they might rethink this issue... these are just some of my ideas... I am positive that just a lone ranger like me isn't going to do any good... It takes a few people to get those letters goin'....

how to contact Walmart

Comments (82)

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If sevin was applied to plants, that would kill all the good insects, along with the bad insects and could harm worms from the dust settling on the ground. I see no place for Sevin to be used on plants what-so-ever.
    We all have different opinions and I respect that, so, i'm not attacking anyone, but, only sharing my opinion.

    But, i'm glad some of you are seeing more and more bees! That's awesome!

    JIM

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Celestial Rose, thank you for those beautiful, beautiful bees with your roses. As soon as I finish this post I will be clipping, clipping, clipping...Those bees are so precious to me...and every photo I see of them is such a huge blessing, never! to be taken for granted...I remember when lovely threads with the Bird and the Bees were posted, I begged for photos of the cute little bumblebee and now I have these flying jewels...

    AnnTN, thank you for your recommendation of Dr.Amine from the University of Virginia. Even though he does specialize in mites, he seems like such a reputable, very! knowledgeable person and I'm sure he'll be able to answer my questions and will probably know a lot about the carbaryl anyway, since it is so toxic to bees...

    Beth I truly hope Ace Hardware will do the proper research before being fooled by the producers of Sevin...I too will be writing them to send them both! my links and
    that of Henry Kuska about the joyful fact that yes, the U.S. is FINALLY going to be completely banning Sevin...but there is a catch to it--the interim time it takes, which I will be explaining later...Remember, Sevin may be considered less toxic in terms of HUMAN CONSUMPTION....But it is undeniable that it will destroy entire bee colonies.

    What I think too is that the residue settles into the ground and is easily carried by any sort of slight breeze...Sevin will destroy all life-- mosquitos, earthworms, you name it.

    dangers of Sevin from Wikipedia

    online dictionary link of Sevin Carbaryl with other accompanying links

    and Henry's link---THANK YOU!!!!

    EPA agrees that Sevin must be banned

    Beth you say Sevin used to be used in flea collars, etc. Well, all the vet hospitals strongly urge all their pet owners never! to use flea collars. They say flea collars are awful, they cause all kinds of long-term kidney problems and can even cause cancer...And you have to consider the fact USED to be used... Rather pet owners are supposed to use Sentinel an oral medication..., so again if any pet owners out there are using flea collars, use Sentinel instead.

  • bethnorcal9
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I did not say flea COLLARS. I said flea POWDERS.

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Everyone I would like to thank everyone too for their help and for those like Jim, Alisande (my sob blankets about the passing of those beautiful bees in my Dad's garden) and even those who have disagreed...It gives me the opportunity to try to bring more information exchange and will help me get in contact too with those very knowledgeable with bees.

    My final point is that we say bee population has been in decline for decades! I still believe Sevin has a large responsibility in this... SEVIN/Carbaryl has BEEN IN COMMERCIAL USE SINCE 1958.... that is fifty one years, over 5 decades. It is now the 3rd most popular insecticide--and this is a horrifying fact!!!! Thousands are still going to Walmart Garden Centers where Sevin is being carried.

    Sadly even though the EPA will be banning it, it takes 18 mos. for it to take effect. In other words, stores will be allowed to carry it until supplies run out... That is why it is so important for those of us who have the time to write to Walmart, Ace Hardware whoever carries this product why this issue is so critical. And if our neighbors feel they must use insecticides, it is important that we very tactfully and carefully recommend other insecticides instead. All we can do are the tiny steps, one by one...

  • anntn6b
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You blow your credibility by misreading. Dr. Amrine is at West Virginia. That is stated correctly in my first post. You need to read what he's written, I DO NOT recommend you bother him, he's working on many different mites and related diseases. YOU NEED TO TALK TO A BEE PERSON, NOT A MITE PERSON. He isn't a bee specialist, he's a mite specialist. Contact your state department of agriculture and let them earn their salaries.

    If your Dad has a disease in his mites, other honey bee raising folks nearby need to know it.

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    oops sorry for offending you Ann and Beth... Yes, I did misread Beth's. But Ann, I do! feel Dr. Amrine can give me valuable information about mites...the disease cycle... Why would you give me his information then if you didn't want me to contact him? I am very puzzled... To me part of putting the puzzle together is to compare the cycle of how long it takes for mites to decimate a hive and to compare how quickly my Dad's honeybees were decimated. Also scientists who are very dedicated in general are very altruistic in nature..I know my Dad is a very gentle person/scientist and constantly donates to charities. He too before he retired was very busy, traveling to world conventions to Berlin, Austria, Switzerland, but he was always willing to answer questions and like a scientist, has a very patient, caring personality. I do not feel Dr. Amine would be offended by my questions... Because he is so valued by apiarists all over, I am sure he has a network of people he can help refer me to...especially with regard to bee specialists. Please give me the chance to contact him and give me the benefit of the doubt... Dr. Amrine's goals as he states himself, are "to save the honeybee"... I am sure his knowledge and network extends to other contacts that I will need to help solve this issue...

    Beth I apologize for my misreading of your flea powder versus flea collar... I am hoping the other flea powders are used instead of Sevin....So far it seems the pyrethins are the more popular choice and now there are better animal-safe flea controls to use... and I also found a few sites that stated the toxic effects Sevin can have with the flea powders, But this is already a complicated enough thread and there's no time for me right now to explain further...I'm only isolating Sevin with the honeybees to help encourage anyone who currently using it in their garden to seriously consider not using it and the fact that Sevin will be outlawed by the EPA too gives enough credibility...I do need bee scientists and those body bags of my Dad's bees to help state my case to Walmart right now. So this will be my last post for today until I get my letters written...

  • anntn6b
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wanted you to read what he wrote. Simple answer. He's written a lot because he wanted to share the information.

    You may find answers in what he's written. But you owe him and other scientists the courtesy of bringing your own level of knowledge up to snuff...up to the level that they have shared ...before asking them beginner questions.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=kansas+beekeepers
    has almost 77,000 references to Kansas beekeepers.

    And you have Kansas State who are working with Virginia Tech (which is in Virginia) on colony collapse. This is a Virginia Tech portal page. That's where you need to start your studying---with your local experts at Kansas State.

  • buford
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't know why you think anyone is being fooled. The pesticides clearly state not to use when bees are present. It's up to the person using the product to use it properly. Sevin is not the only product that will kill bees or other beneficial insects. So you will probably eventually want to ban all pesticides. That isn't going to happen because it would have disastrous effects. Lack of food and increase in disease for two examples.

    Any product, including household cleaners, can be dangerous if used incorrectly. You'd have a more effective argument if you just stressed the fact that people need to read labels and use products correctly rather than sound an alarm about a product that can be useful and try to have it banned out right.

    I agree with beth that it's doubtful that the one application of Sevin spray to the house and window sills would wipe out a colony of bees. If the spray was done on a flowering plant it would be possible to harm a couple of bees that were on them, but again, not the entire colony.

  • monica33flowers
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Like Celeste I have tons of bumble bees (lots of really big ones) and honey bees. I also have lots of Salvia planted with the roses.

    The Japanese beetles are just crazy here but I always use soap and water on the roses. And they aren't just on my roses, they have also taken a liking to my hanging baskets of petunias!

    What I am lacking are the wasps this year and I don't miss them.

    As one poster had said, you must read the labels. Is so very true --- I have found myself even with people that work in a nursery suggesting and pushing the organic neem oil or even other chemicals. I always pull them aside after the worker has left and tell them just use a small amount of soap and water in a spray bottle for the Jap Beetles.

    Since I've been jabbering away --- what I'm trying to say that it isn't just Wal-Mart giving false information as it is people that work at nurseries -- people who you would think you could trust -- that are giving bad advice.

    I personally feel Americans need to read the labels before using any insectcide and find out what the ramifications of that product it can cause on the environment. Even the organic products ARE NOT always safe.

  • zack_lau z6 CT ARS Consulting Rosarian
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is what the label on Sevin says
    BEE CAUTION
    This product is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment on blooming crops
    or weeds. Do not apply this product or allow it to drift to blooming crops or weeds
    while bees are actively visiting the treatment area.
    Seems pretty clear to me.

    I use granular Merit/Cyfluthrin to control grubs on the ground--but our population of bees seems to be getting larger every year--our strawberry jar is doing great this year! We used to have lots of wasps, but something cleaned out a huge nest last fall.

  • prairie-rose
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I used Sevin powder to get rid of the huge cicada-killer wasps that created multiple underground nests by my front steps--it was the only thing that worked, after flushing the nests with water, using wasp killer spray on individual wasps, and even using tennis rackets to swat them (my husband did this, luckily he wasn't stung). Still have tons and tons of honeybees and bumblebees in my yard, because we didn't run around sprinkling it hither and yon all over flowering plants just for the heck of it. As others have said above, it's right on the label--insecticides can and will KILL BEES...because they're insects! (duh). No hysteria needed, just good judgment, caution, and following instructions.

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We have many, many earthworms in the soil here, which are important for good soil health as you all know. We have a few bad insects, but, not bad enough to even worry about. Seems to be a good balance of good insects that are eating them. Sparrows are landing on our roses and eating bugs.
    We have never had to spray any type of poison here ever around or on our plants.
    I'm alittle worried that sometime we may have to deal with blackspot or other fungus diseases on our roses and I personally do not want to harm the great balance of nature we have here with using the wrong product. Will cross that bridge, when we come to it.
    Bumble bees are very few around here this year. I have watched the neighbor throw Sevin dust on all her plants from time to time, first year she has done this. Is there a connection? I don't know!

    JIM

  • gardenfanatic2003
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This year I've seen more honeybees in my yard than I've seen for the last several years, and I've been thankful to see them. The bumblebees have been thick. My idiot dog likes to chase them and snap at them, even though she's been stung on the mouth numerous times. :-P

    I don't use insecticides, by the way. I doubt if my neighbors do either, because they don't seem to venture out in their yards to even mow very often, much less spray anything.

    Deanna

  • mehearty
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I used sevin responsibly one season, and my bees were fine. In fact, we have so many bees and wasps swarming around, that my kid doesn't dare go near my flower beds. I never blanketted anything. Go figure.

    I don't care what Europe has outlawed, and please stop "yelling."

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our neighbors are not responsible people...LOL...

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    O.k. everyone... I am back after doing more research but have a few more letters and people to contact...

    to clarify, my Dad was only spraying the foundations of his house and window sills--when I say blanket it means that he is spraying the areas thoroughly (no skipped areas), remember, when you spray the entire perimeter of house foundations that is actually significant square footage... Also breezes are very! hard to control, there is never such thing as a perfectly still day (at least in Kansas)...Whenever I spray organic fungicides or even hot pepper wax spay there is always a significant breeze and I always catch vapor/backwind when I am spraying no matter how careful I try to be...Likewise I think the same situation exists for spraying with Sevin, you'll always catch a breeze. And sadly, my Dad's gardens and yard are constantly blooming... Even though he was spraying just the house foundations and lower window sills, I'm sure the breeze sent the Sevin elsewhere...

    Well, it is a free country. People are free to use what they want to use and everyone has their own story of why and what... But Sevin is outlawed internationally. The EPA is finally going to be banning Sevin...I think my Dad's situation is already a very sad, horrible mistake and we are very depressed about what has happened to his bees. Regardless of Sevin, the fact is as Dr. Amrine says the bees are gone. They will never come back and that we have to wait until another hive finds us. The other option he says is we can try to raise our own hive...For spring 2010 I will get a bumblebee hive for my Dad... According to Dr. Amrine, in West Virginia once bees are gone, it is very difficult for them to be able to make a "natural comeback" and have to be reintroduced by imported hives. He wrote "we have areas in West Virginia that have not had any honey bees for about 10 years." so whether it is disease or pesticides, the fact remains that we should try to protect our bees as much as possible. A bee that is unhampered by Sevin has a stronger chance of survival...Also as Jim wrote, even if you try to be responsible with Sevin, when it drains or filters into the soil it is lethal to earthworms...It just isn't a good insecticide to use unless you have something severe like termite damage to your home.

    I do believe when we use Sevin we are taking tremendous risks...and no, I'm not yelling I'm just really, really depressed over this whole tragedy, the loss of those bees.

    I also learned a few very interesting things about bees and the 2 diseases that can also kill them from Dr. Amrine... There is varroa mites and Nosema ceranae. However the decimation or the disappearance of the hive takes a couple of weeks and is not as immediate as what happened with my Dad's bees... For individual bees at the soonest it's 8 days; ours disappeared the day after the Sevin with the exception of the 3 dying bumblebees two days afterward... However, I still need to telephone/call in (not just do online checking) as Dr. Amrine suggests just to make sure there is no beekeeper within my Dad's vicinity and if there have been any diseases or hive removal...Bees can only travel up to 3 mi. as he explained, and every place I checked online was 20 miles at the very minimum (just one beekeeper was 20 miles away, the rest were several hours' drive away)...Anyway, I am very grateful for Dr. Amrine's kind help...

    P.S. I think international reports are very good...They offer a separate, balancing of viewpoints...

    Here is one from Australia that covers both carbaryl in gardens and for pet flea control...if one isn't interested, then don't look and ignore...But for those who do want to see what scientists around the world feel about it, then they can read if they so choose.

    Australia's decision

  • anntn6b
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What does Kansas State say?

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I looked at several of the links listed on the hyperlink you gave me, but the beekeepers were several!!! miles away (many are a good day's drive-couple of hours from where my father lives)...and as Dr. Amrine told me, bees only associate within 3 miles from their hives. One of the closest was about 10 miles away...but they had horrrrrible ratings if you click on the reviews they had one star out of 5 stars and were called a scam company so I didn't even bother contacting them ...

    bad local beekeeper

    and the next one is way out in Olathe...(over 20 miles away)...I will still contact that company....

    the final last source is actually the Overland Park County... in case there are any other beekeepers I might have missed out on, just as Dr. Amrine suggested...

    Again, I am still assimilating much research, letters, and email, and now by phone... It will take me awhile, but will let everyone know the updates...

    I feel it's very important to make sure there aren't any viruses afflicting the Overland Park area... this will make an even stronger case that indeed it isn't the varroa and Nosema ceranae but that Sevin indeed is the most likely factor... Again, how fast it took my father's bees to disappear is far more drastic than the few weeks it normally takes for a virus to wipe out a colony...So again, every bit of information is of value.

  • organic_kitten
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have had a tremendous increase in bumblebees this year. I have noted that cleome apparently entices them into my garden. Yoiu would have to see them working on it to believe it. Also, I have a lot of salvia and other plants planted for the hummingbirds and I have noticed an increase in bumbees there too.

    What I have been missing for at least three years is the honeybees. I have some, but not nearly what I should have.

    I am a lazy gardener. I use a fungicide on occasion, but no insecticides. However, I guess that is not a totally true statement since I did bup up a Japanese beetle trap, and it worked beautifully.
    kay

  • Zyperiris
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This thread gave med a headache. I have hardly seen any bees around here...but to be careful..I have not used any chemicals. My roses are doing fine!

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Organic Kitten, I may try some of those plants you mentioned in your post. Thanks!

    JIM

  • dan_keil_cr Keil
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When you are using any pesticide, READ THE LABEL FIRST! If that had been done, maybe the bees wouldn't haven't been killed. I am sorry it happened. That is why I don't use insecticide much at all.

  • Elise
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just wanted to pass along that my honeybee and bumblebee population has really increased this year after several years of decline. Our winter was mild this year and rainfall was okay, maybe a bit below average. We had a cool foggy spring.

    The bees showed up early with the blooms of the citrus and apple trees in February. Bees are very numerous now. The big black bumblebees like the tubular flowers of penstemon and alstromeria. The small yellow and black bumblebees like the tomato, pepper, and bean flowers in the vegetable garden. And the honeybees prefer the lavendar, salvia, gallardia and daisies--also the flat single and semi-double roses. They do not seem to fight with each other over the flowers.

    The only insects I haven't seen many of are yellowjacket wasps and butterflies. I hate wasps so I'm glad they seem to have gone elsewhere, but I do miss the butterflies. Guess I better start growing milkweed and other butterfly-specific plants for them.

  • aurora1701e
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This morning I went out to get the paper and counted 15 bumblebees buzzing about doing what they do. They love my Julia Child tree rose. I've never seen that many before.

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    everyone, I am getting closer to being able to start writing my letters of complaints about the Sevin...

    Here are the facts from calling up the Kansas State Department (also Bill Scott-who heads that division)and from calling the closest apiarists to where my father lives... It is little wonder why I was having such a hard time finding an apiarist...The county says there are no apiarists listed in our county...and indeed the apiarist, David Webb, that the State Dept. referred me to, reconfirmed that beekeeping is illegal in Overland Park...This strikes out Dr. Amrine's possiblity that an apiarist in Overland Park could have moved their hives. I have just one more apiarist to contact, Robert Burns, but I can't get an answering machine to pick up my call...I will update once I get his input and have found more scientific papers....

    Both the State Department and David Webb told me that varroa mites have not shown up for a good 8 to 9 years ago, and that there have never been reports of Nosema ceranae either...Also David felt that Sevin is really to blame because usually takes several months for the varroa mites to decimate a healthy hive. Before the application of Sevin in my Dad's yards, the honeybees were plentiful and were very! active and busy... According to David, the mites cause a gradual decrease, not the sudden disappearance that my Dad experienced... Dr. Amrine says it takes at least one month for a hive to be destroyed--- David says that is for a weaker hive and is the worst-case scenario, usually it takes several months instead... My Dad's situation was immediate disappearance...

    Now what I have to do is the painstaking gathering of reports of Sevin from the Europeans as well...Since the EPA will be banning Sevin for 2010, what I have to do is send Walmart those reports...

    And yes, my dad did a horrible mistake of not researching and not reading labels before applying Sevin to the foundations of the house...But the fact remains that Sevin is highly toxic to bees; no warning label on that insecticide states that it is illegal and banned internationally... Again, as Jerijen says one can't follow a store's recommendations; it's up to us to do the online, careful research if we choose to use an insecticide...I would hope that people will choose a different insecticide instead of Sevin...Since Sevin will soon be illegal in the U.S. I hate to imagine all the discount sales that will be going on with this product in terms of clearing out the inventory, and can only hope and pray that people won't go for the sales...

  • kristin_flower
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a hard time understanding why small home gardeners feel the need to use insecticide or fungicide for that matter. Maybe I'm just blessed that apparently I don't have the same insect and disease pressures as others, but I would never feel it necessary to spray poison in my yard with my young children, animals, and the neighbor kids playing in my yard (not to mention what it does to the environment, ground water, beneficial bugs, etc.) I would not hesitate to rip out any plant unduly burdened with insect or disease issues. Who wants ugly, disease ridden, bug infested plants in their yard?

    Lots of people believe if they can buy something legally it must be safe and lots of people do not read the instructions. Just because these items are legal doesn't mean it's smart to use them in your yard.

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kristen flower,

    Some people in certain climates have a rough time with getting blackspot or other fungus diseases on there rose bushes. They need to use a fungicide or else the fungus disease may make there rose bush look like a charlie brown christmas tree. Who would want that? LOL

    JIM

  • kristin_flower
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim - I agree I wouldn't want a Charlie Brown Christmas tree of a rose. I'd rather spend my hard earned cash on disease resistant roses and other plants than on the fungicide, spraying equipment, protection, respirator, and all the hassle involved with using chemicals. I've ripped plants out just because they were the wrong color. There's no way I'd put up with a disease ridden plant.

    -Kristin

  • sandy808
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm with Kristen. I've never quite figured out why some people will fight to the death in defense of a chemical, legal or not. Unless they invented the chemical, why such a personal offense taken? My take on saronasyh's thread is of genuine concern, and was never intended to attack anyone.

    The honey bee decline is likely a very complex problem. If there is a mite issue that is attacking bees, what caused such a proliferation of that particular mite? Perhaps the elimination of another insect that was a biological control of those mites?

    I hope the problem is able to be figured out and the damage repaired in the near future. Otherwise all the arguments in the world will be a moot point. No pollination equals no food. Period.

    Sandy

  • jaxondel
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sandy, Bottom line seems to be this: We Amurcans r rugged individualists & we want r guns & r insect poisons ever at the ready to use as frequently & as heavily & as indiscriminately as we choose. Europeans and other outlandish outlanders are effete intellectual snobs whose science and limp-wristed concern for the planet r just a tank o' hogwash.

    Oh my . . . perhaps a brighter day will dawn before it's too late, but I doubt it.

  • sandy808
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't get me wrong....I'm a very firm believer in personal rights and freedom. We were also born with the right to protect ourselves if threatened with danger of survival, by whatever means we have at our disposal. That's a good thing. It keeps the bad guys under control.

    My point was that however well intentioned all of our chemicals had been, we are definitely seeing some repurcussions from their use. We need to approach things that are happening in our environment with an open mind to finding a solution, without fighting with one another, and also without hysteria. I'm VERY worried about the bees. I like to eat. Fresh blueberries are heavenly, and there is nothing better than fresh vegetables right out of the garden. Most every thing directly involved in the human food chain is dependant on pollination. Even our eggs and meat.

    Flowers are nice to have too. They are so good for the soul. But I only keep the ones that are strong enough to shrug off problems without needing anything more from me than food and water with a little compost thrown in for good measure. Most of them need the pollinators as well. I hope the bee problem is something we can correct.

    Sandy

  • jerijen
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think a great many people feel that toxic chemicals are "needed" because no one tells them there's a better way to go about things.
    And because companies that manufacture things spend a gazillion dollars telling us how wonderful they are.
    It is, after all, EASIER just to coat everything with chemicals than to find ways to go on without them.

    DH and I were at a Consulting Rosarian Seminar on Saturday.
    Most discussion of chemicals turned back to selecting resistant cultivars.
    And using chemicals, IF you use them, of types, and in ways, that did the least harm.

    The wheel is turning.
    Thank Goodness.

    Jeri

  • texaslynn
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sandy - now that was a clear, concise, rational, non-inflammatory, presentation of your views. Well done!

    There is nothing more detrimental to a good debate than a judgmental, holier-than-thou, I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong attitude (it's also obnoxious and irritating). When that rears it's ugly head, minds close up. People are now insulted and on the defensive and the (judgmental) person has lost their opportunity to present their argument in a way that others will be receptive to.

    We all take care of our yards in different ways, according to many different factors, including time, money, space and that little thing called climate! and hopefully most of that is in an environmentally responsible way - whatever that means! And that's the crux of the argument - who decides what is the "right" amount of chemicals to use or not use? Do I get to decide? Or do you? Who out there appoints this person to oversee what each of us does in our little yards hundreds or thousands of miles from each other? Are you a bad person if you want to have a rose variety that requires spraying a few times a year? Each of us probably does SOMETHING that someone else on here wouldn't "approve" of......

    I try to use as many organics as possible, I recycle, I compost, I help little old ladies across the street, etc., etc. and I don't want (as no one would) that someone across the country be critical and judgmental of my choices - in my different climate, my different life circumstances - because I don't do things exactly the same way they do them.

    Is it strictly black and white or can there be shades of gray? But, again - who decides?

    Lynn

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our morning glories have finally started blooming and the flowers are attacting bees. Great to see!

    JIM

  • donnann
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have read this entire thread with great interest. What surprised me was that it seems fungicide is out also. I'm like "you must be joking". I have many many honey bees, wasps etc. I use fungicide every two wks. I do it when there are no bees flying around. If I didn't use fungicide I might as well put life like plastic flowers around the house and pretend they smell good. I haven't seen any dead birds or bees.
    I HAVEN'T USED PESTICIDE THIS YR. BECAUSE OF WHAT I HAVE LEARNED HERE.
    Sorry the cap lock was on. When one goes on a mission to ban something, they take my right to use it away from me. That robs the gardeners of his or her right to use a product responsibly. Education is the answer. Not another choice taken away.
    I am sorry about your dads bees and that he didn't read he label but to take the right away from others because of it is wrong in my opinion. Thousands of people overdose or cause severe liver damage misusing tylenol. Should we wipe it off the shelves everywhere so no one can use it?
    I am stunned that many feel we shouldn't use fungicide. Donna

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, Jerijen, Sandy and Kristenflower are all bringing very valid and rational points of view in my opinion...TexasLynn, this actually did start as a rational informational exchange overall... It's to get out the information of one particular pesticide that does endanger our bee colonies...and it's also to mourn the passing of the honeybees in my father's garden...no one is ramming anything down anyone's throat...Jaxondel was just being humorous in pointing out that many Americans really resist change and international points of view...I remember during the Bush administration, when Europe, Japan, Canada, the Russian Federation, even India were trying to sign the International Kyoto treaty on Greenhouse Gas Emissions, the U.S. actually vetoed the treaty because we didn't feel like being accountable to anyone else...This bubblehouse isolation becomes an issue of pridefulness that I don't think will get us anywhere in the long-term...People will defend and attack when cornered, so if we try to change minds we end up getting raked over the coals anyways (it goes both ways).

    Again, I feel it's just important to get the information out. People are free to read or to ignore... When I myself was being questioned by others, I went out and did more! research... Our facts are there are no varroa mites to decimate my father's honeybees. Varroa mite infections have not been present in Kansas for several years. The deaths of those bees were 90% likely (as the Kansas apiarists also believe)from Sevin that drifted from the foundations of the house due to the air circulation/surrounding breezes...yes, there are always flowers blooming in my father's garden; in all likelihood the Sevin got to those flowers and to the bees...Sevin is also different from other insecticides in that it is carried out to the hive instead of being merely immediate contact poison...finally we have to consider that Sevin is the 3rd most popular insecticide in the U.S.--that is very stressful and hard on our bees...

    TexasLynn I do have to agree with you that trying to find alternative ways is not! easy, therefore research is very important...and just as you describe, each of us is accountable to our own private decisions...Even organics can be misunderstood and irresponsibly applied...But if one doesn't research the alternatives that to me is a mistake too...Everyone just has to spend enough time researching so that we don't have bee tragedies like my Dad's unfortunate mistake...and to be able to contribute to a greener more abundant earth...

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    uh, Donna, I never said synthetic fungicides should never be used on this post... Many synthetic fungicides have minimal or no effect on the bees... This is only about the bees and Sevin...Sevin is the most toxic insecticide out there for the bees which is why it is outlawed internationally. Sevin is not tylenol, it's arsenic to the bees... but the main thing is that at least you're reading and trying to understand what the issue is...If you look back on the links I left, it will explain about the Sevin...And thank you at least for the condolences...believe me, I still to this day feel awful, that surely there must have been something I could have done or have foreseen...

  • scardan123
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think that for once it is good as we have it italy, were powerful pesticides cannot be bought by a hobby gardener, you need a special licence and they are recorded just like medicines (you can freely buy an aspirin, but if you want something stronger you need a receipt signed by a doctor).
    I guess that many people use what they are sure will work. Until they are not informed that squeezing an ant will kill it, some might buy a gun to fire at it.
    A forum like this one is very helpful for learning what remedies will work, and what remedies will not.

    I do not see organic products atumatically as 'good' and chemicals as 'bad', I simply see a problem and different possibile solutions. I try to pick the best one. All else equal, I prefer the less polluting.
    Many chemicals are also expensive, that is a sort of indirect disincentive.

  • buford
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm certainly not defending a chemical, I am merely against any kind of knee jerk reaction, and that's what I see here. And serenasyh, you now say you aren't against synthetic fungicides, but you did start another thread against it and in that thread you implied that they would affect bees and birds and other living things.

    I believe that things have a place. When there is a bad insect infestation that is causing problems, you may need an insecticide. They are dangerous chemicals, no doubt. That's why they have labels and the directions need to be followed. We all use toxic chemicals all day long, just in smaller doses and we use them correctly. Did you know that if you swallowed a whole bunch of toothpaste, it would kill you? Well it would. Of course we don't swallow a whole lot or allow our children to play with it. The same thing applies to any garden chemical. Read the directions, use it correctly.

    And here's something to make you think. What if they find that the mite that is killing bee colonies can be eradicated by using a certain insecticide? Should we not use it to protect the bees?

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, Buford I do believe you have misunderstood any previous threads I have made and this has influenced your perception of me... My threads were just on why not try organics first and then if we continue to have problems we can incrementally work our way up... Karl is a strong proponent of using as IPM which is integrated pest management... In which you use the most environmentally mild ways and then work your way up the pesticide chain. You do not go in and nuke all your insects at the get-go. Sevin destroys all beneficial insects--earthworms, ladybugs, bees but with the bees it's the entire hive, and that! is my concern. Other insecticides may just kill a few bees, not the entire hive. To me, Scardan's way/the European way is ideal in which certain insecticides should be banned from everyday usage unless a special permit is obtained (Sevin being that type--and should only be used, for example, when termites endanger the house)...

    Buford, varroa infections are very! easily controlled by the proper treatments... That attitude is like o.k. can I kill pneumonia by killing the person and the bacteria at the same time? What's the point of killing the mites if there are no more bees left that we can save...

    Sevin as I explained is not tylenol or toothpaste to a bee. It behaves like high-potency arsenic--it can kill both on immediate contact and in a lesser strength as with my Dad (drifting from the air), it is carried out to the hive where it then kills the entire hive as the powder is spread from the bees' bodies as they touch the honeycombs and hive structure...

    Many other insecticides can be used safely and correctly--Neem oil can be safely applied, the lawn companies are now using a new safer grub killer called Acelepryn which does not! hurt ladybugs, bumblebees and birds, unlike the popular Merit which did! kill a few birds at my house and did make my dog very! sick. Merit you have to wait for several days of rain before it is "safe". MichaelG also has references/experiences on both the synthetic and the organics... Safer alternatives do exist and even the stronger ones will only kill on immediate contact, unlike Sevin which can be carried into and destroy the entire hive. Therefore we shouldn't use Sevin for everyday garden usage...

  • buford
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whatever. Again you are going back and forth between fungicides and insecticides.

    The point is that anything can be bad if used incorrectly. And you need to read labels. Anyone who applies any organic or chemical product without knowing what it does is at fault. Not the chemical and not the store that sells it.

  • donnann
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I know this is probably the most stupid thing anyone has ever said to you so forgive me anyway. I just went outside to look at my garden for the millionth time today. I have a huge bee balm garden in the back. An adorable woodchuck decided he liked it and ate 99%. I am heartbroken and can barely go back there. Fortunately I transplanted some in the front this year and the little rascal hasn't seen it. Anyway I went out to the front and back and there was so many bees that I thought "they don't call it BEE balm for nothing" I read in your earlier post about time and the amount of travel etc. If your dad planted things like bee balm etc. would that help to get them back a little faster? Donna

  • greenhaven
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I have noticed is that, with the lower numbers of European honeybees, I have seen an explosion of diversity in the KINDS of bees that visit my flowers. Small, large, green, black, yellow...in addition to honey and bumble bees.

    I am NOT saying that we should be lackadaisical about protecting our honeybees. Yes, agriculture as we know is absolutely dependent on pollinators. But let's not forget that honeybees are not the only ones out there that count. They might be the most industrious, but certainly not the only ones. They were imported just like so many other species.

  • Zyperiris
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I certaintly have learned alot in here.. I would imagine the typical attitude for someone who notices something on their flowers..a disease and cool..if they can find a product that will get rid of disease and bugs at the time. As a culture it seems we are just coming around to understanding that some bugs are good bugs. The attitude was always ANY BUG WAS A BAD BUG..at least in my mind that was the case in the old days. I remember about 10 years ago..I had a little fixer upper home. I had quite an assortment of bugs..I can't remember what my issue was..I think maybe slugs. So I went to the nursery and asked what to get and I got some over the top insecticide..the clerk asked me if I wanted something that strong..he said it would kill the good bugs too..I remember thinking killing all the bugs would be good. So..my way of thinking now has changed considerably. The good news is that as time goes by more and more of us are reading labels and watching what we use. It's a good thing..

    Donna, what fungicide do you use? I sure would like to use one..I have some BS..but I am ignoring it and also the bugs on my roses.

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Donnann, your Bee Balm garden sounds like heaven! and I am so sorry that naughty Woodchuck literally cleaned up his plate with your garden...I am sending much warm wishes for your Bee balm garden's speedy recovery...Yes, definitely get wire fencing for it. I would have loved to have seen your Bee Balm Garden.I am keeping my fingers crossed that Mr. Woodchuck will chomp on only the wild weeds instead, like crabgrass or nutsedge or those invasive tree shrubs!

    I recently saw Kristenflower's absolutely gorgeous rose/lavender heaven too at the gallery and was so impressed! Yours and hers are ideal bee gardens just like Celestialrose. I need to grow much more bee balm because I found out that my dwarf bee balm is not as "invasive" as I had hoped, LOL, no thanks to my crappy soil. I actually planted my bee balm away from my roses in a bare 3 by 3 area. My bee-attracting plants are too young, too few to really attract many bees so next time I have to amp the collection and not! deadhead my beebalm, hoping the seeds will scatter

    My dad on the other hand has 3 crabapple trees, a persimmon tree, a dwarf apple tree, his yard is completely overrun with wild honeysuckle bushes, lilacs, a forest of hollyhocks and sweet peas(which the bumblebees used to love before they died, one flowering redbud tree, winterberry, azaleas, gardenias, jasmine, 3 crazy rosebushes that are like 8' tall because he never prunes them, 1 rootstock Dr. Huey, all these bee and bird attracting plants which I am so jealous about...But! he does not have bee balm... I think he can certainly add this to his collection...Donna, LOL! I think you will be "enabling" him; the neighbors already think he's got enough of a jungle...Also genes run in the family, hahahaha! I tried to keep as tidy of a garden as I could, but my garden still looks like a jungle because I planted like 50! overly tall gladiolus and now I want to grab some of my Dads overly tall hollyhocks as well!

    Anyway, I cant wait to see your bee balm garden recover and flourish once again. Hugs!

    Greenhaven alas I have just a handful of those native beesbut am grateful that at least I have those few. Your post reminded me, do you remember that "I am so excited thread" I wrote? The wonderful cute Mr. Bumblebee that used to visit my garden in May did not survive it seemsIn Mid-June it disappeared after my next door neighbor hired a professional pesticide company to spray the foundations of their home. Perhaps it too was Sevin? It was not until an entire month and a half passed that my Dads bees disappeared... (he and I live in completely separate neighborhoods and bees only have that 3 mi. radius anyways) So as you can see I feel why I feel so guilty. Perhaps if I had mentioned this to my Dad, who knows something could have been prevented? Again, you may be right in that the wild bees are hardier in comparison. They have shorter life spans and dont have communal hives, and that is why they have survived You see if you do the research and look up native bees youll discover thisThey dont have the hives and therefore, they dont have the communal death that the honeybees experience when they are exposed to Sevin. Because wild bees have so many tiny individual nests, each is independent of each other ... Not so with honeybees. Once their hive is contaminated, their entire hive is destroyed, thousands are gone. But to be honest I will always love the honeybee and bumblebees more... There's just something so special about their fuzziness that I love!

  • donnann
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    zyperiris, the fungicide I use is banner/mancozeb. The next time I use compass. Very expensive but it lasts a long long time. years actually so it is expensive to buy initally but cheaper in the long run. Worth every cent.

    serenasyh, this is what it used to look like. If you look close there are many many buds that will open. The hummers and I would run into each other all the time. Donna
    {{gwi:302261}}

  • iluvgardens
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I saw on PBS early this am a show about the bees called Silence of the Bees. It was very interesting about the decrease in bees through out the world. It is called CCD or colony collapse disorder. They say that the honey bees have started to recover from the mites that was at the start of the decade. The bees have adapted to the mites also with chemical intervention of the mites. They stated that the recent loss of bees may be related to a virus of the bees. This recent loss started in 2006 and as of May 2009 they said that there is starting to be a recovery of the great per cent loss and there is more hope for recovery since last winter. In 2007 there was a 32 per cent loss, in 2008 there was a 36 per cent loss, and this year 29 per cent loss of colony. Ave loss is 20-25 per cent each year to maintain bee business. Also therories of bee loss could be related also to genetic modified foods, cellular phone use, changes in Earths magnetic field, and unsafe use of chemicals. I thought of this thread when I saw the show. You can check out PBS and search about this topic if further info wanted. This a interesting thread.

  • serenasyh
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Donnann, your bee balm garden was absolutely gorgeous! thank you so much for posting and am really looking forward to when it fully recovers, just like I hope the honeybees will someday come back to my Dad's garden... Sadly as Dr. Amrine says it can take a very long time for bees to return once they're gone... He says there are sections in Virginia in which there haven't been any honeybees for over 10 years... And I think that is why we should try not! to use insecticides like Sevin that are highly toxic to bees.

    Iluvgardens, here is the link for everyone to watch that you provided... I am so glad you and my BF mentioned it to me so that I could watch online since I missed the show...

    video on the disappearance of our bees

    Again, the show and PBS' site urges everyone to consider trying to go pesticide-free...whereas my stance is try to stop Sevin... PBS says "And of course keep your bee garden free of pesticides a danger in any garden. Some pesticides can kill the bee before it returns to the hive; other pesticides get carried back and can harm the rest of the hive." Sevin is exactly! the kind of pesticide/"arsenic" that gets carried back to the hive. Even our own forumers inadvertently admitted that Sevin was the only thing to completely destroy the wasps and their hives----Likewise Sevin wipes out honeybees in THIS EXACT SAME WAY.!

    Here is PBS' link which is called how you can help the bees

    Again, I'm praying that everyone really reconsiders Sevin and its impact on our bees...If we just do this little thing, we can make a tremendous difference.

  • Donna Er
    8 years ago

    Serena

    I just posted an inquiry about using Sevin for Jap Beetles and then I saw your post. I'm so sorry to hear your inadvertent loss of your Dad's bee population. I won't even spray the Carpenter Bees when they're feeding on the bee balm. Your loss and post will benefit many others from making the same mistake. I've been spraying a little Raid when the beetles are devouring my roses. But, will need to re-think my JB treatment for next year.

    I have been so blessed this year with butterflies (mostly swallowtails) in my newly estabilshed garden. It's magical to walk outside and you're just surrounded by the butterflies everywhere. I've got buttonbush blooming by the large pond and the butterflies are in heaven. In the front I have mostly echinachea and a couple of butterfly bushes.

    So the moral of the story is to attract lots of birds.

    Thanks for your post.

    Donna in Fredericksburg, VA

  • HU-873469657
    3 years ago

    We have some kind of bug that is eating the leaves on our plants so I sprayed it with seven however next to those plants is plants that are attracting bees and I’m afraid of course after I sprayed the one plant that maybe I would be affecting the bees will never happen again I promise you and thank you again for your comment and information!