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Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

Posted by braverichard North MO - Zone 5 (My Page) on
Sat, Jul 5, 14 at 11:39

Been growing roses for just over a year, so definitely a newbie...

Last year I planted a hybrid tea rose from bare root that grew quite tall and produced fragrant, lavender flowers that looked as attached. It is called the Blue Moon Rose.

As it was noted to be a rose flower hardy to -10 F I didn't protect it for the winter. Then we had a few days in January with -30 F wind chills so I figured the hybrid tea rose would be done for. Come early spring however, most of the canes that produced the beautiful flowers last year came back and didn't die back. So with that I figured the hybrid tea rose survived. I also examined the bud union and saw that the canes that were alive were all above the bud union.
Then the rose produced flower buds, and released flowers that looked just like Dr. Huey blooms!! Of course Dr. Huey is the very hardy rose bush that blooms only once in the spring and is most frequently used as the root stock for hybrid tea roses. The lavender rose I had last year was gone and all I had left was a red flower with no fragrance. I got confused about it as I was certain that the hybrid tea rose survived as the same canes that produced the beautiful flowers last year were alive but instead now were produced a different flower.

So now it is almost July and the rose isn't reblooming but instead is growing super tall super fast - it is already 6 feet tall and still going. So I'm quite sure I just have Dr. Huey now. I've already bought the rose again as bare root, potted it and had it grow up and bloom with the beautiful, fragrant flowers like the ones I had last year.

I'm ready to remove the one in my garden which does not have the nice flowers anymore. But before I do that... My question then is, how come all the canes are from above the bud union? I figured everything above the bud union would be the hybrid tea rose and that once the hybrid tea rose dies, the root stock would shoot up from below the bud union and come up.

All input is appreciated.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

Pics of the root of the plant to see that the canes are above the bud union.


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

Another pic


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

This sounds like a question that would be best addressed to a knowledgeable rose person who is local, and could actually come and look at your plant. Check out the American Rose Society, and see if they have a chapter near you, or any other rose society for that matter. The ARS keeps lists of rose experts all over the country who will volunteer to come and help you.

Meanwhile, before you order any new roses, I would concentrate on getting those which are really, truly, cold hardy so that this does not happen to you again.

Jackie


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

A couple of points about hardiness--
1. Wind chill is irrelevant to plants. They are going to be about the same temperature as the air, regardless of wind.
2. If the temperature was -10 or below, all exposed tissue of a hybrid tea and a couple of inches below the surface will be killed. If a vendor claims a typical hybrid tea is hardy to -10, they mean it can survive if the bud union is buried a few inches and winter protection applied above that.

Obviously the remaining plant is Dr. Huey. I have no idea how to explain your very interesting puzzle! Hope someone can help with that.


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

A couple points to keep in mind for future reference.

Most hybrid teas (maybe "all"? I'm not sure.) will not be hardy in Zone 5. If you plant the graft 4-6 inches below the soil line and put a protective mulch over it for the winter, maybe it will survive unscathed--but maybe not. Zone 5 just is not a good place to grow hybrid teas.

In the spring when you prune the roses, check the inner pith in the center of each cane. If it is tannish colored (it should be white), go down the cane another 6-8 inches and prune and check the pith. If it's still not white, keep going down the cane that way--until you finally get to white pith. I'm in Zone 6, and that often means I must prune back the HTs to several inches above the ground. The parts of the canes with tannish pith may be able to put out a bloom (perhaps a weakly bloom) but then might not have enough energy left to continue re-blooming for the summer. That is why it is better to prune back to white (undamaged) pith.

Good luck.

Kate


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

wind chill might be irrelevant... but wind itself is not ... many a cane has been completely dessicated by long cold winter winds ... and that is complicated.. if the south side of the cane is thawing in winter sun ...

when i did roses in z5 MI ... i used to cut the canes to about 6 inches .... spray them with fungicide ... and in late nov ... bury the crowns with around 6 to 8 inches of ground leaves .. and then put a rose cone over them ... and i still lost about 20% per year ...

and that is why i dont grow them any more..

i dont see the graft on your pix above... i am thinking.. regardless of what you see .. you are growing root stock ... no hybrid T blooms once per year ...

also ... a lesson hard learned.. order your roses from up north growers... who knew there are actually special root stocks for down south .. well.. i did.. after a whole shipment died ... the world before the WWW was learn as you go ....

good luck

ken


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

Thanks for all the insights.

I actually planted 12 hybrid tea roses of pretty much the same stated hardiness (-5 F to -15 F). I didn't protected these. Only one became Dr. Huey (the subject of this thread). The others had to be pruned down to about 4-6 inches in the spring but have all kicked back and are blooming nicely. I actually pruned one back all the way to just 2 inches above ground, feared it wouldn't make it but it is back now and has put out 6 nice, fragrant, red blooms.

I also planted another 3 hybrid teas that were stated to be hardy to just 10 F so I protected those as Ken stated above. They all came back and are nice and sweetly fragrant.

I hear you all on being aware of hardiness. What I've always understood is that I can grow hybrid teas here but will have to protect them and also they will never get huge (like beyond 3 feet tall and wide) because they die back severely every winter. This past winter was one of the worst we've had in 50 years, many 20+ year old plants even died. Crepe Myrtles that had grown to 12 feet all died back down to their roots. Nurseries got hit with record warranty claims on plants that didn't make it. I intend to start protecting every single hybrid tea rose I have for each winter. That said, I've been told by many local gardeners that I either got very lucky or took good care of my roses such that they hardened well before winter. Beats me.

Thanks Jackie for the ARS suggestion, never thought of that, will look into it.

Ken, yes it is pretty clear that what I have now is Dr Huey. The real puzzle is how I am now seeing Dr Huey on old canes that had produced the hybrid tea flower. The graft is clearly visible in my second pic, it is making contact with the mulch. And indeed, the internet has changed everything. A newbie like me can learn from the experience of folks like you thanks to it and avoid costly, heart breaking and frustrating mistakes.


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding or reading your post wrong; but are you calling the canes coming out of the lower part of the cane the grafting point?

I almost wonder if some one missed that only the upper buds were from the graft and that the lower part by the mulch is a sucker off the rootstock that was trimmed thinking it was the budded part. If so, last seasons growth from that point might have been after Dr Huey would have bloomed so there would have been no red blooms to alert you to the issue. The upper growth part might still be the original HT, but all the energy is being pushed in to growing the lower one.

Since the rose is probably history anyway, I would cut off the lower growth as neatly as possible and watch and see if the HT reappears or if it is truly gone.


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

FWIW, if your plant your HP as Dublinbay suggests, i.e. bud union 4-6" below soil level, you can grow HT's without any problem. You need to feed them a tad more, as roots are way down.

If you have adequate snow cover that is a plus.

I grow several tender roses (including a couple of HTs) with no winter protection. However, we have a lot of snow cover, which is the best protection.

However, you can grow many roses without all that hassle. If I were to redo my garden, I'd chuck out all the tender ones :-)


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Sat, Jul 5, 14 at 19:08

I think Kippy has hit on the explanation. Dr. Huey would not bloom on first year growth. So if it's bloomed this year that growth was there last year. I have a DH that bloomed last year for me but died back to the ground over this winter. It has two new canes (already 5 ft tall) on it now but neither one has bloomed because it is new, 1st year, growth. If they survive this winter they should bloom next year.

You need to check that rose out carefully. Are there two different types of leaves on it? If so destroy anything that looks like the canes the DH bloomed on. Do not just cut them back but RIP them off so you damage the area they come from. If you just cut the canes off they grow right back. If there is any of your rose left it may then begin to grow. No guarantee but you can try.


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

The graft is clearly visible in my second pic, it is making contact with the mulch.

==>>> not to my eye ..... IF THERE IS A GRAFT.. IS HIGH ON THE LEFT ... call it 9 oclock on the pic .... not down by the mulch ... on the right .. 3 oclock????

which is what kippy is also saying.. but ruling out the left .. of which i dont know why ...

i would shovel prune it ...

ken

ps: if any of the original was left ... i would expect you to be able to see a difference in the leaves ... T leaves not being quite the same as rambler leaves... it should be rather striking.. rather than subtle ... and if you dont see such a difference .... then there is probably nothing left of the T ....


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

  • Posted by hoovb z9 Southern CA (My Page) on
    Sun, Jul 6, 14 at 14:48

that doesn't look like a bud union. It looks like a dr huey sprout that has been broken off, and then it branched from the broken area.

I've seen a lot of that.

Get a new one and plant the bud union below the surface of the soil, or get an own-root plant.


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

Guys... this discussion is crazy! I'm loving it because I'm learning a lot.

I've re-attached the old pic here with some labels. Which one is the graft? Maybe I had it wrong, I am new to all this after all. I thought "D" is the graft but it seems you guys are saying it is "C"

As for burying the graft 6 inches below the soil level, man, that is pretty deep and normally the plant would have lower leaves that would be buried too. So just remove the leaves?

Also at that depth, fertilizing and even watering would become quite a chore at least until the plant gets established won't it?


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

it has been suggested there is no graft showing ....

they ruled out my C, and i have to agree... as the scarring.. or healing doesnt look right ... ... and its definitely not D ... nor A or B

see link .. for two examples of grafts ... they are not hard to see [unless you bury them 6 inches.. lol... i know nothing on that theory of planting] .. when you know what you are looking at ... and we just dont see them on your plant ....

that and its growth pattern being out of spec for the plant you are talking about ... e.g. one bloom cycle on a T ...

shovel prune it.. its a location for something new ... i would not be planting roses this time of year ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: second and third pix -- i didnt read the article.. i just like those two pix


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

Ken, I think you are right about C maybe being the graft

I think D it where someone in the field missed removing a Huey sprout and the A&B resulted from Huey

I think deep roots are the goal anywhere but for different reasons


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

Richard, I planted several tender roses this way, however, they were either bare root or it was early spring, thus no leaves. You can remove them if you want.

I planted my roses in 2012. So I don't know of the long term ramification of this type of planting. But I don't protect anymore.

There is a lot of digging involved. However, I recommend putting the bud union at 5" depth. As by the time you finish stumping around it will probably go an inch lower :-)

According to my book (I posted a link below), you need to fertilize with fish emulsion every 2 weeks, besides your basic soil amendment, spring compost etc.

I'm not very diligent with fertilizers, but I normally get 2 flushes out of my HT. Each year it has been more spectacular than before.

However, as I said there many other classes of roses you can plant with much less trouble. But be forewarned you might get rose bug :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Tender roses for tough climates


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

I'm beginning to agree with you guys thinking C might be the graft... basically, I'm seeing the theory of the Dr. Huey being everything that does not come from C.

So let's test this out. I dug the rose out and went and transplanted it to one of my houses where work is being down for a couple of weeks. It will be watered daily by the guys so it will do well despite the hot weather. I pruned it all the way down to C. I left B in tact but will go back and cut it off. We'll see how this roles.

A question I forgot to address earlier: no, I didn't quite notice different leaves, all I can say is that the lower leaves looked much smaller than the upper ones, I think that it is possible the HT is gone but it was definitely there last year, no doubts on that.

true-blue, I already have the rose bug. I grew up on a mansion with over 200 beautiful roses in a much warmer part of the world. No winter protection needed lol. Got me hooked. Alas, I am here now.

Ken, I planted all 15 roses in much higher temps last year. They all actually put on a good show last year and are doing well now. You can plant anytime right? Just need to water when hot.

Following Jackie's suggestion earlier in this discussion, I contacted an expert rosarian that's local. He suggested indeed to plant HTs deep and still cover them up with lots of dirt and mulch for winter. Sounds good, well, I planted 15 already without doing that. I'm not in the mood to disturb those plants and I did pretty good with 14 out of 15 of the HTs making it. So I just don't know...


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RE: Hybrid Tea Rose gone???

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Jul 8, 14 at 18:40

You probably had both the HT and the Dr. Huey growing together last season. You just didn't notice the DH because it didn't bloom. But DH is VERY vigorous and has probably over come the HT now completely.


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