Andrew ...

I hope you get something wonderful. Jack Harkness wrote that there were more than 250 million possible outcomes from any given cross. I think the odds are higher today, as the genes of roses are more homogenized.

Smiles,
Lyn

Thanks Lyn! I'm sure ill get something worth keeping. I also have a successful fertilization using pollen of Shafira Asma. The hip is younger so not as big yet but I can tell I will be eventually. I've heard that crosses between two fragrant roses can sometimes make a non fragrant or mediocre fragrant rose, but that's not surprising as I theorize that different types of rose fragrance are on seperate chromosomes just like sweet corn. Crossing supersweet with sugary enhanced yields boring rock hard corn. I did this expirament myself to test this. When the F1 hybrids were backcrossed with each other I got a select few kernels that were BOTH supersweet and sugary enhanced! I believe I can do this with rose fragrances. Personally I believe non fragrant seedlings shouldn't be discarded in such crosses because they posses valuable recessive genes that when backcrossed will yield seedlings superior to both parents and grandparents. That's just my thoery of rose fragrance genetics but we'll see. Btw I'm a 25 year old Horticulture student at LSU.

I think you'll find the issue of fragrance in roses is a lot more complicated than sugar content in corn. There are many more genes involved, plus expressors and inhibitors. Then, there is the matter of petal type. Fragrance is generated by the oils and alcohols (plus other chemicals) in both the stigma (depending upon which species' genes are involved) as well as the petals. For the fragrance to be expressed, the petals have to be soft and more chemically active. If they have "substance", the waxy cuticle or skin, which is what gives the roses greater durability and vase life, that wax seals the petioles where the chemicals and their reactions occur, reducing to eliminating the expression of scent.

Until the seedlings mature, there is no way to predict what you will get from them. I would strongly suggest reconsidering "back crossing" anything containing either of these two roses. There are far too many negatives to be gained and far too many other sources of more vigorous, healthier scented rose genes. As Paul Barden loves to state, "friends don't let friends breed with Angel Face!" There is a LOT of truth to that. Kim

In theory....it sounds wonderful! And I want it!

Kim, thank you so much for that insight, you certainly seem like the kind of friend I'd like to have lol. I know I have much to learn, I'm determined to be a world renowned breeder one day though! This year I am seeing my first seedlings mature and so far my best of the best is a seedling of (Reine des Violettes x Pink Double Knock Out). It has no fragrance so far as expected, has the vigor of Knock Out DNA and its color and bloom shape. It does have more petals than PDKO as I predicted as this is a dominant trait. What's exciting is that is seems to have retained the semi-elegantine traits of RdV [rubbing the sepals of this seedling emits a piney mixed with green apple fragrance] too bad the actual bloom has no scent. Also, it is 100% thornless [unlike its 3 sister seedlings] and Kim, I'd love your opinion on this as I know that is a recessive trait and I'm wondering how any Knock Out could produce a thornless F1 hybrid. I know KO ancestry is complex, but there must be a recessive gene or inhibitor hidden in there somewhere. PS I'm religious about preventing pollen contamination and as this seedling possesses several KO traits I'm 99% certain that PDKO was the father but hey I could be wrong. And Susan, thanks! It I get something special I'll be sure to post.

What you'll get is any ones guess! I hate to say it may be very black spot prone. AF has quite the bad rep for that and unfortunately my GC black spots too. But I also have to admit that I've used both of them in the past too, lol!

Thanks, Andrew, but your being a genetics student puts you way ahead of me as far as the genetic theory goes. Reine des Violettes is completely sterile in my climate. It never set seed nor produced viable pollen, so I have no experience about what to expect from using it. Also, our goals are quite different in that you are seeking scent where my search is for greater health, ease and success own root production and growth, with lack of prickles taking up third place.

It isn't uncommon for any rose to express scents from their growing parts. MANY modern as well as old garden roses possess scented sepals, peduncles and new growth tips, particularly in the first flush in spring as well as when conditions are right for permitting bloom scent to be detectable.

I can't tell you what to expect from any Knock Out breeding as I've not personally grown any of them, nor used them in breeding. The originals are a very mixed bag, as you can see from looking at their lineages on Help Me Find-Roses. Other than the greater resistance to a wider range of black spot types of the earliest Knock Outs, the only trait I find interesting are their sepals. Not enough, though, for me to actually obtain one. Fortunately, black spot isn't a huge issue in my climate. Rust and mildew supercede black spot here. My most successful weapon against both has been a fiberglass handled shovel. That cures EVERY disease. If the rose, or any other plant, is sufficiently unhappy in my garden, it goes away, period. By eliminating, as much as possible, the unhealthy, lacking in vigor, potential parents, my seedlings stand a better chance of not suffering from the issues. I do VERY little selfing or inbreeding because, as any ethical dog breeder will tell you, "Recessives are forever." Just look at Congress! LOL! Unfortunately, there are often very many negative recessives to be picked up with any positive potential ones, unless the genetics of what you are selfing are sufficiently diverse. Perhaps selfing a mini X species cross might pick up something quite useful, but I would never self a hybrid tea X hybrid tea or any other "artificial" class of rose. If man created it from a narrow range of genes, I don't want to deliberately homogenize it further through selfing.

I'm not so sure lack of prickles is a recessive trait. There are a few lines which frequently result in thornless, or nearly thornless offpsring. Thornless examples (as with miniature examples) exist in many species. Wichurana, Setigera, Fortuniana, Multiflora all have thornless variants. Fortuniana is thought to be a hybrid, but it expresses both very prickly as well as totally thornless plants. Knock Out's seed parent was complex and was a self, or at least, open pollinated seedling. Obviously Mr. Radler saw something in it worthy of trying to isolate. Perhaps had it been mine and I saw what he did, I may have tried it. Usually not, though.

I don't know what the causes of freedom from prickles in RdV might be, but if your hybrid lost the trait, obviously something lined up just right in that cross. I hoped using Basye's Blueberry might have resulted in thornless seedlings, but my experience showed me otherwise. There is still much we don't fully understand in that direction, too. No matter, "rules" are simply our means of trying to explain something that is going to change the next time you try it, anyway.Kim

Seil, you're very right about the black spot, but don't worry, I have secret weapons against this! I've done about 400-500 crosses this year of everything any breeder can imagine, and a few of those include surprising successful crosses of (Knock Out x Golden Celebration), (Double Red Knock Out x Shafira Asma), (Abraham Darby x Knock Out). I will then breed these amongst each other until I get roses with fragrance, shrub habit and and black spot resistance. Keep in mind that not all of my hundreds of crosses produced a fertile hip. I'd say about 90% of the time I cross triploids with tetraploids the cross fail but you just need to be persistent because it DOES happen. As a side note, if anyone is interested, I find that Carefree Sunshine is one of the most fertile triploids out there!

You should follow William Radler's lead and inoculate your seed beds with all five races of black spot in the US so you can weed out the less resistant ones BEFORE making any further crosses with them. Breeding and selecting for one trait is daunting enough. Focusing in on multiple traits, while maintaining achievements in one makes it virtually impossible. By eliminating potential parents for disease issues will significantly improve your chances.

It is difficult as Hades to dump a GORGEOUS plant which contains much of what you sought, because it us unhealthy. Reintroducing it into your line should result in even greater miseries. If you are of sufficient mettle to deal with them ruthlessly, it will make it much easier. Kim

Hi Andrew, this is a new endeavor I am also beginning. That is awesome that you have a thornless offspring! That would have to mean that your KO is heterozygous for the prickles & if you cross this plant with another thornless variety, it would have to also be thornless since we are now talking recessive, recessive. However if it has any traits you don't like, I would produce another F1 with your P gen.

Going back to the heterozygous traits, that would make complete sense. I know I, for one, would absolutely propogate from cuttings once I see I have a great specimen. If all prove to be disease resistant, I would totally co.tinue to propgate & market rather than ensure a "purebred"' All we want are beautiful roses. Congrats on your thornless, I hope your next generation will be even more exciting!

Now, I want to research this KO pedigree. LoL

Haha, just had a horrible idea. We should get a keryotype of roses just to see all of the different traits. we know there are so many for bloom color alone but I would like to see all of the possibilities, it would be fantastically endless! :-)
- I'm a dork, I know.

When I first contacted Kim about roses, he gave me a reading list of books written by several very successful breeders. My favorite author is Jack Harkness, but LeGrice is right up there.

Harkness's book Roses is a very complete and insightful study of species roses and their hybrids. You can learn a lot about what traits various species roses have brought into the rose gene pool.

LeGrice ... is incredible. If you want to learn about bloom color ... read LeGrice.

The other books were equally as important as they gave me a sense of the timeline of the development of modern roses, and studying them gave me even more information about the traits found in the rose family.

Cultural information may be "dated" and biased because both of these breeders were from England, but the knowledge they share about the botany of the plants is detailed and very much worth learning.

I read these books periodically because every time I read them, I am bringing more personal knowledge and experience with me and see the information with "new eyes".

I also made my own lineage trees by hand because HMF did not have the lineage report feature online. Even though I can go through a lineage report on HMF and understand it, I think the exercise of doing my own lineage reports and looking up the species roses and the other roses included in the lineage gave me a deeper understanding of the make up of the rose.

A seedling may look like it is a good rose, but you really won't know if it is a worthy cross until you have carried it forward for several years. A juvenile plant often performs differently in many ways than a more mature plant.

It takes time to learn how to see roses through a "breeder's eyes". You are on your way, but you have only had the opportunity to touch the surface of what it takes to breed good roses.

Also, it takes time to reach the point where you can learn from the best teacher of all things roses .... the rose.

I love your enthusiasm. You'll need it to help you to meet your goals.

Smiles,
Lyn

PS... keep in mind a lot more has been learned and written about the science of breeding good roses since these books were written.

Blackspot and defoliation most likely.

Kim, I totally agree with you about innoculating my beds with all 5 types of black spot just as Radler did but where can I get samples of them?
growing_rene, thank you for the kind comments, I actually plan on creating a whole thornless line!
Lyn, thank you for taking the time to recommend these books to me, I will definitely check them out as I am always hungry for information on the genetics of roses!

Andrew...

Kim recommended them to me and I am happy to pass the recommendations along. The whole reading list was longer, but these two books/authors fit this thread. I don't know who said it first, but Kim often reminds me that all rose breeders stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before them.

I was lucky to have these books and others to help me see roses differently at the early stages of my rose life.

One thing I have learned is that no one knows it all and I am still asking questions. There are so many people who have touched and handled roses that I have only read about. Or have grown roses in climates very different than the ones where I have grown roses.

Kim posted these quotes from Ralph Moore in the MEMBER COMENTS of Mr. Moore's breeder page (I have included a link below).

"Just when you think you know the rules, the rose changes them!"

"You think you've just about made it and somebody moves the goal posts!"

"Roses can't read!"

"Make a good plant first, it's always easy to hang a pretty flower on it later."

I don't know whether or not you are a premium member of HMF, but the webmaster is a genius when it comes to presenting information. The lineage tree programs he has written for the site are fantastic. Please feel free to contact me if you need further information.

Smiles,
Lyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Ralph Moore Breeder page on HMF

I don't know, Andrew. I know they have isolated five races of it around the country. I don't know where each one resides, but I'm sure you could possibly find out from either Mr. Radler or David Zlesak, whom you can contact through the Rose Hybridizers Association. David has been involved in much of the research about black spot. He could likely tell you where, which races exist and perhaps have suggestions how to obtain them. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Rose Hybridizers Association

I would be worried about crossing ANGEL FACE with GOLDEN CELEBRATION as both cultivars are highly blackspot prone. However, I'm interested in the Knock Out crosses. The original Knock Out is fragrant, but the doubles aren't. If flower form and fragrance could be improved while maintaining blackspot resistance, attractive shrubby growth habit and the wonderful remontancy PLUS smooth thornless canes - well then it would be the perfect garden rose wouldn't it?

That would be my first concern, windeaux. Andrew, there is a very convenient thread about breeding for disease resistance on the RHA, posted by David Zlesak this morning. You might find it interesting. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Vance's disease resistance rose breeding review

What would you get if you crossed Golden Celebration and Angel Face?

Blackspot.

That was my first thought also!

Kate