Return to the Roses Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
New rose garden

Posted by andreark 8b (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 23, 12 at 14:36

Less than a month ago, I planted a new rose garden. The soil is clay but not the rock hard type. We dug about 20 inch holes and planted the potted roses with a soil mix that was recommended by my nursery.

It has been 80+ to 90+ since they were planted. At first, when it was 80ish, I watered them every other day. Now that it is so much hotter, they are wilting if I don't water them liberally every day. My new babies are: Pristine, Oregold, Gemini, First Prize, Olympiad, and Brandy. They are already producing GORGEOUS flowers. But is this watering normal?

The ground (mulch covered) puddles but drains very quickly.
My gardner is going to put each bush on a drip, but how much water a day or week will they need? Are they just so thirsty because they're new or is it the heat?


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: New rose garden

Gosh yes, this is really quite stressful for recently transplanted bushes. There will have been a bit of damage to the root hairs while planting and doing this in such hot weather can be traumatic for both plants and gardeners. Are you able to shade these roses by rigging up some canopy, at least for the hottest part of the day? Without knowing exactly how much water the plants have been getting, it is hard to judge - a plant which is over-watered will wilt in exactly the same way as a plant kept too dry. Poke your finger in the soil as deep as you can - is it moist? A good long drink once a week is better than a daily dribble. As a basic rule of thumb, I use a full can (10 litres or 2 gallons to do a square metre but will double that in hot, dry or windy weather.
You can buy, quite cheaply, a water meter - a wand you poke into the soil which will tell you how wet it is. In the UK, we would be able to buy one for about 10 pounds, or about 14 follars - these are very useful as watering can cause no end of anxiety.


 o
RE: New rose garden

The roots are still as though in the pots. Also the clay, with its stronger capillary attraction, has the ability to draw water out of the potting soil. So once a week or so one should water enough to moisten the soil outside the potting soil and rootball. Generally plants can deal better with too much or too little water if the soil in the vicinity is uniform rather than stratified. However, it is what it is, and in time they will get their roots out and adapt.

With highs in the high 80s and low 90s, established 4' plants can use around 5 gallons or one inch per week, typically given in only one watering per week. With mid- or upper 90s and no rain, I would give 5 gallons every 5 days. In milder weather, less water is needed. This is not much trouble, so with only 6 plants, I would water with the hose rather than going to the trouble and expense of installing drip. I don't have the experience to advise on drip schedules.

Since a month has passed, I would start weaning them away from the daily watering. Temporary wilting in sunny afternoons is not necessarily harmful. I would give maybe two gallons twice a week. Check them at 9 PM on a non-watering day, and I think you'll see that they have unwilted themselves. Next year when they are bigger they can use a little more water.

I'm glad you are enjoying your roses. Come back with any questions.


 o
RE: New rose garden

We've had temps at or above 90 for the majority of the last 5 weeks. In addition, our daytime humidity has been lower than normal, and wind speeds have been higher than normal.

In an otherwise normal year, 5 gallons per bush per week is perfect. I upped it to 5 gallons every 5 days, and surprisingly it's not enough. I did exactly as michael says above & went out last night to check them at sunset on a non-watering day. It was not pretty.

Luckily, we've been encouraged to water only at night & that's exactly what I did.


 o
RE: New rose garden

Yes, wind and low humidity are additional factors, and the very long days during July in the North.


 o
RE: New rose garden

Thanks for all your answers. I think I should probably get a 'watering probe' for the ground.

I have also read that over watering can also cause your plants to wilt. But when I come home at 6:00 pm and they're wilted, I water them and they perk up in about 30 minutes.

This is going to be great fun.... I have another question about fungicides and pesticides, i.e., whether to try to go organic or not. There is info on Rosemania by Logan Shillingworth on the commercial stuff.

Any suggestions?


 o
RE: New rose garden

They are thirsty both because they are new and because of the heat.

You did not say whether you planted own root plants or budded plants. It doesn't make that much difference, but it does have an impact in how fast the roots will grow.

You also didn't say how large the root mass was when you planted your roses. I have found that roses with a larger root mass have fewer problems taking off than anything planted from a gallon sized container or smaller. For me, it's been better to pot them up and let them grow a larger root mass before planting them in the ground.

Whenever you plant a rose, there is no way to avoid breaking some of the small feeder roots that carry nutrients and moisture up to the top growth and carry the food produced by photosynthesis back down to the roots.

Therefore, the roots are simply inefficient when you first plant a rose and the plant has to grow new roots to move moisture through the plant. That's why initially, watering a newly planted rose daily is good, but to encourage the rose to have the roots move out of the initial root mass into the surrounding soil, you do need to back off of watering every day.

The heat is causing the transpiration rate ... loss of moisture from the leaves ... to be higher than the rate which the plant can pull moisture up to the leaves and that's why they are wilting. If your night temps cool down, when you look at the rose in the morning, you will see that the plant is no longer wilting with no additional watering.

Shading the rose is an excellent way to slow down the transpiration rate. I live in a climate where our temps hover around 100 degrees for weeks at a time. For young roses, I do try to shade them from intense sunlight and high afternoon temps. For all of my roses, since roses will absorb moisture through their leaves and canes, I also spray them down with just water in the heat of the day.

Note: I am growing roses in a dry climate, so I know the plants will be dry before the temps drop and do not have to worry about disease.

A good layer of mulch helps keep the moisture in the soil and available to the plant, but not too thick because that can block the absorption of oxygen needed by the bacteria in the soil.

The watering schedule mentioned above has worked well for me in this garden. You may have to tweak it as you go along, but it's a pretty good standard.

Good luck with your roses.

Smiles,
Lyn


 o
RE: New rose garden

Thanks Roseblush.

My plants were in 5 gallon buckets. The main cains were very large and several of the plants are already 2' by 2'. They look as though they have been there for a year already.

They get about 6 hours of full sun,(3 of that very intense
California sun) and the temps around here for the next month or so will be from 85 to 100. Should I start weaning them from so much water before it cools down a little?


 o
RE: New rose garden

As far as your question re. disease/pest control goes, there are regional factors to be considered. What is disease-free in one climate, may be a disaster in another.

I am guessing you are somewhere inland in California, but more information would be helpful.

Jeri
Coastal Ventura County,
SoCal


 o
RE: New rose garden

I hate to be picking on you all so much so soon, but I have another question....This one is about pruning.

I have read so many mixed messages. I am in Northern Cal where it rarely gets to freezing. We have a fair amount of rain generally from Nov to Mar.

WHEN do I prune? It seems that in Cal all I will need to do is a light pruning? I don't want my plants to be 6 feet tall. Can I keep them at 3 feet or so?


 o
RE: New rose garden

I live in the mountains in northern California, inland above Redding. So, it's possible that our climates are similar, however my night temps range from the low 20s to low teens during the winter months.

The roses you listed are "modern roses" and these roses store their nutrients in their canes vs their roots, as do old garden roses. Therefore, you prune these roses in spring. They need their stored nutrients both to get through the winter and for early spring growth.

If a rose is genetically programmed to grow 6' tall, then I have found it difficult to make the rose maintain a shorter growth habit. Maybe someone else can give you tips about that.

Smiles,
Lyn


 o
RE: New rose garden

Redding seems to be some colder in the winter, some warmer in the summer and has quite a bit more rain. But still considering it compared to the rest of the country, it is similar. Thanks for the pruning answer.

THIS IS THE LAST QUESTION FOR THE EVENING!!!! I PROMISE,,, almost.

Do some roses open more slowly than others.For example,the Pristine buds seem to linger longer than the Gemini.Can that be?


 o
RE: New rose garden

Every cultivar is an individual. Some open more quickly, some more slowly.

When I grew Pristine, I remember it as opening fairly quickly -- but I am in very different conditions from yours.

Your summers ARE hot (and you can get a whale of a thunderstorm!) You get enough winter chill to produce some dormancy, which your HTs should like.

You will have to feel your way with size. I remember Pristine as being a fairly tall rose, and Gemini a more compact one, but there again, each of these cultivars is an individual. I loved 'Secret,' because it was a compact HT, but also enjoyed the considerable height of 'Gold Medal.'

If you need your roses to stay in the 3-ft. range, you might be better off with Floribundas, which generally speaking are lower-growing than HTs. But you'll have to check the probable height of each cultivar, and go from there.

(Oh, PRUNING. Yes. Early spring. Down here, we prune in the period Nov. through early Feb., but for you the time will be later.)

Jeri


 o
RE: New rose garden

andreark

If you live in the valley, my mountain climate, northwest of Redding, has some significant differences. The most important one in line with this thread is that my night temps drop more than yours and my roses have more time to rehydrate during the night.

There are other differences and since I have not lived in the Valley, I can only share the more general information.

There are so many variables that impact how a rose performs that it is often hard to answer all of the questions that come up.

I have only grown one of the roses you mentioned and that was when I lived in SOCAL.

As Jeri suggested, if you want roses with a shorter plant habit, you would probably be happier choosing roses that have that kind of habit naturally. It's easier on the rose and easier on you.

Smiles,
Lyn


 o
RE: New rose garden

If you are well inland in California, this is a low disease area where regular fungicide is usually not needed. There will be some powdery mildew--and possibly rose rust in cool rainy weather. You can just discard the varieties that have a lot of trouble and ask here about resistant varieties. Mildew can be controlled with organic sprays of oil, plain sulfur, or milk.

5-gallon roses are particularly hard to transplant without major disturbance of the fine roots. It's a good idea to shade these plants for a couple of weeks after planting in hot weather. However, after a month, these roots should be re-engaged with the soil. I would start weaning them--but then I don't have experience with extreme, 3-digit heat. I do know that plants are not in danger of actually dying from moisture stress unless they are still wilted in the morning.

Once the plants are well established and as big as you want them, you can start cutting long stems for the vase or when removing spent blooms from the plant (deadheading). This will help keep them shorter. However, it will be hard to maintain them at 3'. I prune my hybrid teas to ~18" in spring and maintain them at 4'-6' through the blooming season. Roses in CA are usually bigger.


 o
RE: New rose garden

First of all, I DON'T live in the Valley! It's much hotter there! I live on the Suisun Bay Delta. Warmer than Redding, but not much.

Several of you have educated me about a rose bush's height. I will let them be what they want to be. (I don't want Multifloras or Floribundas)

I've seen a video on 'side pruning'. Do any of you recommend this?


 o
RE: New rose garden

Yes, removing side buds from a HT shoot will give you a larger central bloom on that stem. Exhibitors do this religiously in preparation for a show. But you get fewer blooms, obviously, so most gardeners don't practice it.


 o
RE: New rose garden

Andreark -- Just a suggestion -- but you might get a better idea about what will work for you by visiting a public rose garden with a wide variety of different cultivars and different types of roses.

You're not to far away from the Sacramento City Cemetery for a visit to that place.
The San Jose Heritage Roses Garden is a three-dimensional education about roses. I am in Southern California, but I visit both of those gardens as often as I can, and learn something new every time.
San Jose's Municipal Rose Garden concentrates on modern roses, and may be very useful to you.
In Berkeley, there is the Berkeley Rose Garden, in the Berkeley Hills.
The U.C. Berkeley Botanical Garden has roses, in a spectacular setting.
And on the other side of the Bay, there's the Morcom Garden and Library.

If you spend some time in these gardens, you'll have a better idea of which roses will suit your own garden and your lifestyle.

And leave yourself open to cultivars which are "different" to you. I think most folks who have gardened for a few decades will tell you that their tastes change, and their garden continues to evolve. The garden which does not, is dead.

Jeri


 o
RE: New rose garden

Thanks to all!!!

I think I'm on my way. And I will try to visit those gardens. I do like some other types of roses. They were raised by my mother who was an avid gardner and often Pres of a local garden club. She had a degree in horticultural science and always had show stopping gardens.

Some of the roses she grew were very old fashioned looking. They had very few petals and great fragrances. They were much more delicate looking than the HTs. And I
think they were her favorites.

Well, I'll be picking on you all soon.

Thanks again,

Andrea

Andrea


 o
RE: New rose garden

Andrea...

Thanks for giving us a more specific idea as to where you are gardening. I grew up just outside of San Jose and have a better sense of your climate conditions, which are very different from mine when it comes to growing roses. You have the ocean and delta influence in your climate, while I have the mountain and valley influence in mine.

I live at least a 4 hour drive north of you and another hour's drive up into the mountains. (I often forget that people living in your part of the state say they live in northern California, while I am significantly further north.)

In a way I envy you. I have volunteered at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden and learned a lot from the other volunteers. There are a lot of rose activities and a lot of rose addicts in your part of the state. You will have lots of people to compare notes with as you grow your garden.

Good luck with your roses.

Smiles,
Lyn


 o
RE: Oh no!!! another new rose garden question

My plants have been in only a month now. The leaves are almost prettier than the flowers. They are all shiny green (some very deep with dark red edges and some lighter)with no discoloration or 'bug' holes...

The question is, how do I keep them this way. Do they need preventative insect and fungicide spraying? Or is there something organic I can use to keep them this way?

Andrea


 o
RE: New rose garden

Preventative spraying for insects is not recommended. Preventative spraying for fungus diseases is common, but the need varies with climate and the varieties you have. For example, 'First Prize' will probably get powdery mildew in your location. However, you can stop it with organic remedies after it appears. Or, you can choose among a thousand varieties that are mostly resistant to mildew.

Just bring any problems here, with picture or detailed description. Meanwhile you could familiarize yourself with rose powdery mildew, rose rust, and rose blackspot disease.


 o
RE: New rose garden

But I would like to do 'preventative' work so that they don't get any diseases or bugs.

Is there anything organic that I can use that will protect them from the bad guys?


 o
RE: New rose garden

I am sending photos of my month old babies but on two separate messages. Can't seem to get the page to take 2 shots..This one is Brandy. The next message will have Pristine.

Andrea


 o
RE: New rose garden

This is the second photo I took. I'm not great. This one is Pristine and she is only 1 month old.

Thanks for all your help

Andrea


 o
RE: New rose garden

Andrea -- You don't want to spray for any disease you don't have. That would be silly.

First, see if you HAVE disease problems.
Then, determine what problems you have.

THEN look for a solution.

In your location, it is possible that your roses won't NEED spray -- and that by using sprays where they're not needed, you can do more harm than good.

Jeri


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Roses Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here