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kentstar_gw

How do I encourage basal breaks?

kentstar
10 years ago

I know that some would say Epsom Salts or better pruning practices in spring. I have a Westerland rose that I planted in 2009. It was and is growing fine but no new basal growth on it since the first and second year I had it.
I have had soil tests done to the bed. I have silty loam soil. My magnesium levels were on the border of normal to high so I don't wish to add magnesium to the soil. Potash was low but I have since been adding the potash. Everything else was fine. The rose sits in a bed on the north side of my house but gets sun almost all day from morning till about 5 or 6 pm.

I did prune in April too.

What can I do to encourage basal breaks without adding magnesium? The pH is fine too btw at 7.3 last time I did the test.

I do add organics to the bed in fall. I add either my compost as a top dressing/and or shredded leaves.

Comments (57)

  • diane_nj 6b/7a
    10 years ago

    sandandsun, grafted roses also produce basals.

  • susan4952
    10 years ago

    I am in your zone. I Do organics in early spring, but give the alfalfa tea in mid July to,pump them up for winter. I get tons of basal breaks after the tea, and still have several months before winter freeze damage. I put fish/ seaweed emulsion, Epsom in the tea. Love to see those pop up.

  • dublinbay z6 (KS)
    10 years ago

    You don't have to go to the trouble of making alfalfa tea. Go to local grain and feed store and ask for a bag of alfalfa cubes. They can be tossed around the base of the rose and watered in well with a strong spray from the hose.

    Or feed the rose RoseTone (or PlantTone)--they have some alfalfa mixed in with the other organics. I nearly always get some new canes after feeding my roses PlantTone.

    Another possibility. Since the rose was planted some time ago, one or two of the canes may be getting aged--kinda greyish looking, or kinda barklike. At any rate, not nice young green cane. You can prune 1 or 2 of those older canes near to the soil line. That will often provoke/stimulate the rose to produce one or more new canes. But don't try that method on anything but a vigorously growing rose that has multiple canes.

    Kate

  • wirosarian_z4b_WI
    10 years ago

    Ken, I read that magnesium cannot create new basal breaks by itself, it must have nitrogen present to work. My soil is high in Mg like yours so I don't apply Epsom salts but what I do is apply a little extra high N lawn fertilizer when I do renewal pruning & that seems to stimulate basal breaks for me. I agree that it depends a lot on the particular cultivar as to how readily it will throw new basal breaks. My observation is that if the rose is a vigorous growing rose in my area, it usually will produce more basal breaks.

  • andreark
    10 years ago

    I posted this on June 26:

    "Why so much new growth on 3 ft long bare cane."

    The bare cane has now sprouted 6 new large canes that are now from 8 to 24 inches long and very thick. I have also noticed that some of my other roses are sporting new growths very low on the bushes. They look like they think it's spring, , , only better. I have a small spreadsheet of what they were fed and when. If you would like it, I would be happy to e-mail it to you. The feedings were a combination of Dr. Earth Rose fert, coffee grounds, and as Michael suggested, just 2 or 3 Tbsp of bloodmeal per fairly well developed plant.

    Maybe my roses are just very happy to have me for a mom, but maybe it's the 'stuff' I've been feeding them.
    This also includes a new layer of compost every couple of months and quite a bit of water. They drain well.

    andrea

  • andreark
    10 years ago

    Kentstar,

    Sorry, I should have mentioned that I have HTs and live in northern cal.

    andrea

  • sandandsun
    10 years ago

    So where do grafted rose basals come from? The base of the grafted stalk is no longer the same rose; it's the root stock.

    Are low dormant buds on the grafted rose sprouting out and being interpreted as a basal break?

    Can't get blood from a turnip

  • andreark
    10 years ago

    sandandsun,

    I think you must be asking me about my new canes.

    They are coming from the canes, not the bud union. These are new basal breaks from a 3 foot long cane. I have not confused them with Dr. Huey growth.

    andrea

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    People who plant with grafts exposed do refer to shoots from the graft or lower canes as basals.

  • andreark
    10 years ago

    I guess that I'm confused, I thought I read something in an ARS publication saying that anything above the bud union was a basal break. The new 'canes' that are eminating from all along the length of a very large cane on my Pristine, are now anywhere from 6 inches to 24 inches long. Four of them have large new buds, and all in about 3 weeks. One of the buds has already started opening, and it is white like the rest of the buds.

    So what do I call these new growths? Are they canes or basal breaks.

    Thanks michael for your input. You know that I am just learning.

    andrea

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    Are they lateral canes or basal canes? Depends on how close they are to the graft, according to the speaker's usage of the words.

  • andreark
    10 years ago

    Now you ARE trying to confuse me. (Very easy to do.)

    Ok, all I can tell you is that the lowest and currently the longest (24 inches, really!) of the new canes is about 6 inches above the graft or bud union. The rest of the new canes are about 8 inches and more above the lowest new cane. They really are all along the 3 1/2 foot main cane.

    I have only 2 rose beds with and a total of only 17 GORGEOUS roses. Ten of them have a lot of new growth on the lower part (above the graft) of the bush.
    The other seven have a lot of new growth but not nearly
    as low or dramatic as the others.

    So, whatcha think?

    andrea

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    What do people who grow roses with exposed grafts think?

  • andreark
    10 years ago

    Sorry, you lost me.

    andrea

  • sandandsun
    10 years ago

    I hope that you understand why my first post was phrased "to my knowledge and experience." I thought that the misconception existed.

    So here I want to be clear. Grafted roses DO sometimes throw "basal breaks." When they do so they are called "suckers" and not basal breaks because the basal break originates from the rootstock. And grafted rose growers are well advised to remove them because they siphon off nutrients intended for the grafted rose above.

    Only an own root rose, which as just illustrated includes root stock, can throw basal breaks.

    Grafted roses do not and cannot make basal breaks. Any use of the term "basal break" or "basal" when discussing grafted roses is an improper use of the term. Basal breaks come from the base - i.e., the roots.

    This post was edited by sandandsun on Fri, Jul 12, 13 at 11:34

  • kentstar
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    The rose was bought as an own root rose back in 2009 I think I bought it at Ashdown roses.

  • susan4952
    10 years ago

    I grow mostly grafted roses and the basal breaks ...maybe I could call them new growth, arise from the graft site or from around the existing canes at the graft site. The suckers look totally different and come from below the graft, sometimes further out in the drip line. I consider my graft the BASE of the rose I am growing. In my zone, I live for basal breaks in the spring...with my spring hard prune and winter die back, if I didn't have basal breaks I would be growing petunias.

  • ken-n.ga.mts
    10 years ago

    I got tired of trying all the different concopsions to get basal breaks. Now I just stick to my regular feeding program (milorganite, 10-10-10 and fish emultion) and do a little dance around each bush every spring and beg it to give me new basal breaks this year. Some years I get them, some years I don't.

  • lola-lemon
    10 years ago

    SandandSun- It might be helpful to read this document to understand the difference between suckers and Basals on grafted roses.

    Grafted roses do have basals.
    Own-roots can sucker from their own roots too, in fact. Some roses like Charles de Mills are infamous or famous for this- depending on your preference for spreading roses. Some people prefer to grow these suckering roses grafted, in order to keep them from doing too much of their own suckering. Usually roses are grafted for the vigor of the grafted root, but sometimes it's to contain the vigor of the scion.

    Here is a link that might be useful: American Rose Society article on Basal breaks

  • buford
    10 years ago

    This is anecdotal, but I have found the most basals are when the base of the rose gets direct sunlight on it. This might be in late winter/early spring when there are no leaves to shade the base, or you've pruned back the rose, exposing the base to the sunlight. I've also seen it happen when a large rose needs to be cut back for whatever reason, exposing the base to more sunlight and basals pop up.

  • buford
    10 years ago

    I have many grafted roses with the union exposed.

    If I get new growth from the graft, that is a basal break.

    If I get new growth from below the graft, that is a sucker.

    Hope that helps.

  • ratdogheads z5b NH
    10 years ago

    buford interesting observation. I have gotten in the habit of keeping my roses trimmed of lower leaves, good circulation at the base seems to help in the fight against blackspot. I have also gotten a lot of basal breaks (new growth, whatever) during the couple of years that I've been doing so.

    If you have deeply buried grafts, like we do here in New England, you can just run your finger down into the soil and feel where the cane originates. You get to know your roses too, and suckers just have a different look about them than new growth that comes from just above the graft.

  • kentstar
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    However, mine has no graft. Own root rose.

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    People are arguing about how to use a word when there is no established true meaning of the word.

  • sandandsun
    10 years ago

    There is a true meaning of the term. And the ARS does NOT define it.

    Gardeners know that any perennial or shrub on its own roots may throw basal breaks. A key part of the term helps to define it and that is: "break."

    Break is used with basal because the new growth breaks the surface of the soil as it emerges from beneath it.

    Even if a grafted rose is planted with its graft below soil level, unless and until the grafted rose grows its own roots, the only new growth it is capable of producing is new laterals - no matter where on the grafted cane they originate.

    There is a photo to which GardenWeb will not allow me to link because it is on the "prohibited D gardening site." The photo is presented as an example of a "grafted basal break." Looking closely, one can clearly see that the new growth is originating from dormant buds on severely pruned canes. They are NOT spontaneously arising from the graft or bud union. They are just very low lateral sprouts.

    It matters very little if the term has been misused before or even often. What matters is to understand how to use it correctly.

    If you would like to view the photo I refer to above, it is on that site with the following extension: /guides/terms/showimage.php?did=4827&tid=3453

    This post was edited by sandandsun on Fri, Jul 12, 13 at 16:45

  • the_morden_man
    10 years ago

    Potato-Potatoe
    Tomato-Tomatoe

    That is all.

  • sandandsun
    10 years ago

    kentstar,

    Please forgive me, if required for saying so, but looking at your recent photo at the beginning of the thread, the rose is beautiful and seemingly quite productive. I'd be very happy that it is that happy. I'm happy for you that it is.

  • growing_rene2
    10 years ago

    I am enjoying this thread.. I have learned a lot regarding this process & the latter effect. As a new rose gardener, I did not know about promoting these canes and how they can help for the next growing season. Kenstar, your roses are beautiful! Thank you for starting this discussion

  • sandandsun
    10 years ago

    Another wonderful aspect of growing own root roses is that they can become "accustomed" to their environment. They will grow, if allowed to do so, at a pace that is natural and comfortable for them.

    My Lion's Fairy Tale which put up two new basal breaks last fall has not made any this year. Instead, it is becoming bushier. It is filling out nicely and beginning to bloom in ways it never did its first two years.

    I'm not fretting that it isn't throwing new basals. I'm very pleased with the more mature performance I'm getting.

    I hope this is helpful.

  • seil zone 6b MI
    10 years ago

    Maybe a few pictures might clear up the confusion.

    This is an own root rose. I know it is because I rooted it from a single cutting last season. This spring it gave me two new basal shoots.
    {{gwi:307105}}

    This is a grafted rose. It's a body bag rose I've had for years that I know was grafted when I bought it. As you can see it does indeed give new breaks from the graft area.
    {{gwi:307107}}

    As do many others I have that I know to be grafted roses.
    {{gwi:307109}}

    {{gwi:307110}}

    And this one I was thrilled to see!
    {{gwi:307111}}

    So yes, grafted roses do have basal breaks all the time. Otherwise they'd all eventually die off from old age.

  • buford
    10 years ago

    ratdogheads, yes, I can see a Dr Huey sucker a mile away. It is usually taller, thinner and grows a lot faster than the rest of the rose. Plus I know which of my roses tend to sucker.

  • buford
    10 years ago

    I absolutely get basals from the grafts on many of my grafted roses. Where did the original canes come from if only laterals can come up from the grafted portion?

  • sandandsun
    10 years ago

    Some would say it is simply a semantic issue.

    I say language matters, and that semantic disclaimers are excuses to not put in the effort to communicate clearly.

    Each one of the photos (with the exception of the first own root one) illustrates my point. In none of the photos is a new cane spontaneously generated on the graft (or bud) union. Each and every one illustrated shows a new lateral from very low on a grafted cane.

    The difference, which may be subtle, is that in true basal breaks the new cane has a more direct connection to the roots that is somewhat independent of any other canes. There are various cases where the degree of this independence varies on own root roses, but there is no such independence at all on grafted roses.

    Striving and I mean that quite literally, to explain a point when one has already sufficiently done so is a waste of energy. I have observed over time on these forums that there are many folks, like me and most long term gardeners, who take in gardening truths over time.

    Lastly, I concede none of my points on basal breaks. The term is misused when applied to grafted roses. It is accurate to simply say new growth from low on a cane(s).

    Can't get blood from a turnip.

  • buford
    10 years ago

    No one is trying to get blood from a turnip.

    A basal break is a new cane growing up from the base. On a grafted rose, that is a new cane coming from the graft. I've had them come up from a graft no where near an old cane. Sorry I don't have any pictures. But honestly if you want to keep believing what you've said here, who am I to try to dissuade you.

  • lola-lemon
    10 years ago

    Perhaps we can all agree to disagree! ... but I propose, for the purpose of this particular discussion, we'll just use the vernacular of rose gardening - and refer to these canes that generate from the base as basal breaks because this is how many folks in rose gardening circles do refer to them and also, really, because, this is how the OP proposed it--- and this is just a conversation.
    .. It is interesting to think about words and where they come from etc. I just spent some amount of time looking this up and as Michaelg said, basal isn't really a well defined term. It just means "from the base".
    (Hey, lets call them Al Qaeda canes-- ...Anyway- I agree with Sandandsun and Jeri and the rest, that the OP has a fine looking rose, and I also have quite appreciated everyone's suggestions for stimulating canes errmmm, wayyy down there? My Oklahoma (sad clearance body bag, I failed to plant forever last year) gave me 2 new basals this summer and I am so happy!

    This post was edited by lola-lemon on Sat, Jul 13, 13 at 17:32

  • idixierose
    10 years ago

    I read about another way to encourage basal breaks on roses that don't generate them on their own: Make a shallow cut near the base of a cane. Cut through the skin of the cane and a couple of milimeters more, but don't slice the cane in two. Do this in the spring when roses are putting on their first big growth spurt of the season, as roses tend to generate basals in the early months of the growing season.

    I've heard this is a way to encourage Teas (not to be confused with hybrid teas) to generate basal breaks.

    I've never tried nicking a cane, but I'm so frustrated with one rose that I grew from a cutting that I'm thinking about trying it.
    I don't know the name of this rose, but from the way it grows, I think it's an old HT or possibly a tea.

    I planted this rose in 2003. It grows on one side of an arch. Its single cane has forked and tops out at 6-7 feet. Ten years in the ground and nary a basal break. So there's just one cane and I don't have the nerve to remove it, even though it's not as vigorous as it was 5 years ago. The rose has also been hard to root. How I got this one cutting to survive, I'll never know.

    Anyway, I have lavished TLC on this rose for years -- extra scoops of compost, alfalfa, seaweed, fish emulsion, epsom salts, SuperThrive, etc. Hoping, praying, singing and dancing.

    I'm beginning to think there are some cultivars that are innately not vigorous.

  • henryinct
    10 years ago

    Basal means from the base which for a grafted rose is the graft or bud union. To get basals from a grafted rose you need to plant the rose so that the top of the graft is at least even with the surface. I then mulch over so that the bud union is buried. Basals which can go up or grow laterally will sprout from the bud union and eventually the buried portions of these basals may even sprout rootballs which is the first step to the rose growing on its' own roots. If you don't believe this, plant so that the bud union is half buried and you will see that if the soil is kept moist, the buried part of the bud union will be moist more so than the top and the basals will sprout from the buried portion and generally not as much from the top portion.

  • seil zone 6b MI
    10 years ago

    Hmmm...if you look at that last picture of Garden Party you'll note that the new cane that is coming up is in no way attached to the existing cane. It is not just a branch off the old cane but an entirely new cane coming up from the graft. Also in the second photo the upper right circled cane is also not attached to any existing cane but coming directly off the graft as well.

    In any discussion I have ever had with other rosarians these would be considered basal canes. Basal, as in coming from the base of the rose whether it is own root or grafted. I do not find that a mis-use of the term at all. If you google the term you will find many descriptions on reputable sites, including the ARS site, of new canes coming from the graft being called basal breaks.

  • buford
    10 years ago

    Henry, I've actually had basals pop up from the tops of grafts. When I first started with roses, I didn't bury any of the graft unions. I would now, knowing that they would become own root, but I didn't know that back then. Sometimes they are at a base of an old cane, but many times they are just out of nowhere in the graft.

  • susan4952
    10 years ago

    Exactly the same as Buford.

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    "I don't know what you mean by 'glory,'âÂÂ" Alice said.
    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't, till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'âÂÂ"
    "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master, that's all."

  • sandandsun
    10 years ago

    seil,

    I promised myself I'd let this go, but to answer your assertion about the last photo: what I see is a brown cane at the end of a short older previously pruned cane. I see new growth from low on that older cane.

    The upper right section of the second photo is too unclear for either of us to use as proof. But all of the other circles are clearly new growth from a cane.

    If you respond in disagreement, you may have the last word, no problem.

    Some things take time. I understand that.

    And to possibly help clarify: I could agree to calling the grafted rose growth we're discussing "new basal growth," but never "basal breaks."

    Now, the main reason I posted today is to say:

    michaelg, that excerpt is somewhere between 'too clever by half' and priceless!

  • lainey2 VA
    10 years ago

    Love it Michaelg. The problem with modern movie adaptations of "Alice" is that they lost the humor and turned it into horror.

  • Kippy
    10 years ago

    Can't see the forest for the trees?

  • henryinct
    10 years ago

    A perennial such as a rose has to regenerate itself to thrive and even to survive. The growth of one year eventually wears out as often as every year or after many years depending on growing conditions and is replaced by new growth that is independent of the old growth. For a grafted rose, new growth must come not from old growth at the base but from the base which is the graft. The exception is when the old growth above the graft has rooted in which case new growth will itself be rooted. New basal growth on an own-rooted perennial is rooted and by definition is springing from the base.

  • flowergirl70ks
    10 years ago

    Don't know if this will be of any help to you, but for the last 2 years I have been using Espoma rose Food. I have an old LIttle Darling rose that has been in decline for some time. Yesterday I noticed it was looking pretty good. Then I had another look and counted 7 new breaks. I nearly fainted. finally got down on the ground to make sure I had counted right.
    We are in severe drought here for the last 3 years, but I will have to say that since I started using Espoma products, my roses have never looked better.

  • taoseeker
    10 years ago

    Seaweed extract and water soluble seaweed promotes basal breaks, I swear they work! I prefer the dry powders I stir into water myself. The organic liquid fertilizers available from different brands are good too. They are often a mixture of fermented products which have good effects on roses, and in a good NPK ratio. Alfalfa tea is not to be ignored either and a similar "tea" made of nettles (and comfrey if available) is really good too. These liquid extras are not substitues for regular compost and solid organic fertilizer, but a few applications of this kind of stuff will usually give result. Don't give up after one application, but keep at it from spring to some time in July (stop at some point to let the plant go dormant before frost sets in). If I'm good the roses get this stuff once a month or so, maybe more if I have a few in intesive care. What we can do to promote basal breaks I suppose are things which will generally stimulate growth in any part of the plant. All new growth is a good thing. If the stuff we give the roses contain about as much potassium as nitrogen there should be no problem. Fertilizing can be overdone, but hardly with alfalfa or nettle/comfrey tea and never with seaweed either in my experience. Real compost is often underestimated too (as opposed to peat).

    This is at least my views on the subject ;-)

  • MiGreenThumb (Z5b S.Michigan/Sunset 41) Elevation: 1091 feet
    9 years ago

    Grafted roses send basal breaks from the bud union.
    Own root from their crown.

    The bud union is the heartbeat and source of new canes from the scion. If they did not, the rose's old canes gradually peter out and production lessens for blooms and more new growth. If they didn't throw basals, most moderns probably (HT, Floribunda, etc.) wouldn't last more than a couple of years. These new canes directly from the bud union ARE basals from which other vigorous growth may ensue. It's like saying that two engines don't use gasoline because one is carbureted and one is direct fuel injection! What nonsense- just two methods of delivering the goods which allow the engine to run!
    Exceptions of course lie with Chinas, Teas, and their kin (which I am unable to have direct gardening experience with due to climate, but understand through others' expertise and first hand dealings.)

    Some roses are more apt to exhaust wood quickly or are very vigorous and send out multiple points of new growth. My Angel Face seems to prefer building on top of an old framework of canes whereas my Gallica (found) seems to need a bit more removal of tired canes and is forever sending up new (and suckering gleefully into the yard).

    I'm an optician and hear people say some crazy things about their glasses/eyes. All I can do is smile! and think, "Just because you say that doesn't make it true!" I've even had a man tell me he never ordered a Flexon frame from us EVER even though I personally helped him pick them out last year and have record of it in the computer system!

    Sorry for diverging off topic.

    I know not of any means of encouraging new basal growth. I say as long as the rose his healthy, thriving, and blooming, let it be.

    Steven

  • michaelg
    9 years ago

    I'm not rereading the whole thread to see if it was posted here, nor do I remember where the information came from, but fairly recently a science-based source indicated that exposure to the sun actually does encourage new growth from old wood. Previously I had suspected this was one of the many false beliefs that gardeners share with each other, but not so. Thus, prune to open the center, pull back the mulch a little bit, and if necessary remove crowded lower leaves. Of course these actions would have no effect on a buried graft, but shoots from low on a thick cane are nearly as good.

    Otherwise it's mostly a matter of keeping the plant happy with good basic nutrition and watering. Basal canes are more likely to be produced during mild weather in spring and fall. Rejuvenation pruning where you remove 1/4 or 1/3 of the canes at the base will encourage basal growth. But some plants just won't cooperate. Currently I have an old hybrid tea with only two basal canes. It's still very productive, but eventually I may have to take it down to nothing in order to rejuvenate it (or maybe ruin it).

  • buford
    9 years ago

    Michael, I may have posted that. I have noticed that a graft or root ball exposed to sun will throw off more basals. Sometimes taht happens when a rose is cut down to the graft, or in the late winter/early summer when there is no leaves on trees and no shade. I get full southern exposure in my front yard and I get some basals breaking in December and January, I try to protect them so they last. I'm not always successful.