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Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Posted by gardenerzone4 5b (My Page) on
Fri, Jul 13, 12 at 19:42

After spraying Greencure religiously to no avail against blackspot this season, I am considering alternatives. In terms of non-organic sprays, I know that Bayer Advanced Disease Control is the gold standard. But the cautions on the label made me wonder about its safety for use around humans, pets, birds, frogs, etc. I did some research online and found this site from the University of Florida extension that says no reproductive, developmental or chronic effects reported with tebuconazole, and that tebuconazole is considered to not cause any mutagenic or genotoxic effects; however, EPA has classified it as a "possible human carcinogen" because of the liver effects seen with mice. It's also classed as practically nontoic to birds and bees.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pi105

This has made me feel *somewhat* better in case I need to resort to using tebuconazole. But I still want to consult the experts here--how do you feel about its potential effects on the health of your humans, pets, and wild animals? What precautions do you take when spraying it (goggles/mask/suit)? Do you use it on a set schedule as a preventative? Or only when symptoms are noticed?

BTW, I did try to plant disease resistant roses, and will continue to do so, rest assured there's no need to lecture on that point.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Follow the directions. Wear protective clothing, especially eye protection when spraying. Don't spray on a windy day. Use an extended wand if possible so you can be further away from the spray. Keep your pets in side while spraying and for at least an hour afterwards (so the spray will dry). Don't spray near bodies of water where fish or frogs are. Don't spray any roses that may have birds nests in them.

I use the Bayer and have for about 5 years. The great thing is you only have to spray every two weeks. 3-4 weeks if it gets very hot and dry. If you follow the rules, you should not have an adverse effects.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

And if you should spill the chemical on your body, or on your clothing, wash it off IMMEDIATELY. Wash polluted clothes twice.

Do not neglect the protective gear.
If you can SMELL the chemical, you are breathing it.
Include chemical gloves, or nitrile-coated gloves.

Jeri
(who quit spraying when our dog began to seizure whenever we sprayed)


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Jeri, how did your dog come into contact with the spray? Was it while still wet? Touched? Inhaled? Or was it after the spray was dry and just contacting residue? We have a dog and 2 cats and I wouldn't want to endanger them.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

No. He had no direct contact. But as I said -- if you smell it, you are breathing it. That was all it took. The "trigger" was, probably, Orthene. That was at least 12 years ago.
Since that time, we have restricted our infrequent spraying to Neem, Eco-Erase, and Serenade (which we ran out of 2 years back, and have not replaced).

Jeri


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

I spray with 'Bayer Advanced' and have 300 roses and multiple gardens. I have two cats that play outdoors, but I restrict indoors until the spray is totally dry. I've been spraying for three years and my furballs are very healthy (they go to the vet twice a year for check-ups.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Spray earlier in the morning on a day when there is almost no breeze at all. There is often a window of about 1-2 hours in the morning--a very particular time--when the day goes very still, almost no movement. It also often happens for about 1 hour late in afternoon or very early evening. That window period is a good time to spray.

Use a wand so you can stand back farther.

When finished, immediately wash clothes, hair body.

Wear an old pair of tennis shoes so they can be tossed in the washer also.

I usually wait until I see the first blackspot before I spray. And I spray only the roses that are less disease-resistant. The ones that are very disease-resistant don't usually get sprayed. Which means that a typical spraying includes half or less than half of my roses.

Kate


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

I use it with the precautions outlined above. It seems to be safer than many of the synthetic pesticides. But let me add a couple of concerns.

When used on an agricultural scale and over sandy soil, tebuconazole has the potential to contaminate ground water. I doubt that use in scattered home gardens is likely to cause a problem, but it might be a concern if you have a large garden on sandy soil with shallow wells in the vicinity.

Reproductive effects have been noted in some studies involving feeding large doses to rodents. If I were a woman who is pregnant or likely to become so, I would get someone else to do the spraying, and I would wear gloves at all times when handling the roses.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

The problem with this sort of thing, as with so may other things, is that we don't know the longterm/cumulative effects. We all thought plastic soft drink/water bottles, hormone therapy, even DDT and corn syrup were safe. Years down the road, it turns out they aren't. So, yes, if you use it occasionally and follow the directions you, personally, are probably immediately safe. If a million people use it every two weeks for years, maybe it isn't safe.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

I can think of about 100 things you come in contact with on a daily basis that are more dangerous than rose fungicide. Do you worry about the gasoline you put in your car? Do you run a lawnmower? How many carcinogens does that spew per minute?

A don't know what people are talking about regarding smell. The vapor pressure of tebuconazole is so low that it would only be liquid/solid phase at ambient temperatures. It is possible to aspirate the spray solution, but after it dries, it's not going anywhere.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Did I understand correctly that even roses coated in dried spray should be handled with gloves?


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

For disease problems I only use copper and sulphur spray; these are not really toxic at all;I think they are allowed even in organic gardening. As far as I know, in order to prevent disease, one must start spraying EARLY in the season (I do a preventative, dis-infection spray in February, to start killing off the funguses that have grown during winter; I'm in Italy, a very warm climate). Then, if you spray twice a month, you should be fine (I've NEVER sprayed that frequently;never).However, I think the program MUST be started early in the season, because once the bspot is there, it won't really go away, so I'd never, ever use a product that scared me in the perhaps futile attempt to get rid of the current year's crop of fungi.It sounds like you are willing to spray very often (every two weeks seems to me to be "very often", LOL), so at that point, why not opt for the practically non-toxic copper/sulphur combo? No need to be so paranoid about showering, washing yor hair, washing all your clothes, etc, afterwards, either... regards,bart


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

I've never heard that the roses with the dried product on them are harmful (except to blackspot spores). The testing that was done that promoted the caution was done with amounts that far exceed what the average rose gardener would use in 3 lifetimes.

I agree with nitric that there are far more things that are more toxic that we all have constant exposure to, even household cleaners. I've also never detected a scent in the BA when spraying. Except for the time I added some fish emulsion :)


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

You need to be very careful to make sure the stuff in the bottle is what you think it is--it is very easy to buy a similar product with significantly different ingredients--always read what is inside! For instance, Immunox Plus also contains an insecticide.

A well meaning exhibitor West Coast visiting our local rose show suggested that I use Acephate--a broad spectrum insecticide. I've found I can bring show worthy blooms and still have a large population of bees and other insects in our garden, if I don't mind a bit of insect damage and the occasional trashed bloom. But, in our climate, the preferences of the judges pretty much dictate that you need to spray a fungicide to win Queen of the Show.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Zach, you mean Hybrid Tea Queen. It's the HTs that prefer the spraying, not the judges. We've won Best in Show without spraying, and once, I even won Best Open HT without spraying. That was with Earth Song at a small show.

The big thing I learned from hanging out with the exhibitors is that *YOU* are in charge of the asylum, not the inmates. It is your choice to escalate the battle against diseases and pests, not theirs. It's a very common newbie mistake to think that once you buy the rose, you have to do whatever it takes to look after it, no matter how uncomfortable that makes you feel. So what follows is a high level of ambivalence regarding growing roses, and the abandonment of the hobby as 'too much work'.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Bayer Advanced Disease Control does not contain any insecticide.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

I just purchased Bayer Advanced Disease Control, and it was hard to find it among what must have been dozens of Bayer products at the big box store. I'd say that 90% of them killed insects (including some labeled "FUNGICIDE" in large letters), and I had to hunt & hunt to find the one that didn't. Very annoying, and sad - to think of all of the well meaning people that are using those products, and may not even realize that they kill bees & butterflies.

Jackie


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Zack is correct, though.

In Southern California, if you wish to win Queen Of Show (and in Southern California, ONLY a Hybrid Tea can be Queen Of Show, King Of Show, or Princess) -- you really ARE going to have to employ fungicide.

You might do so only during the weeks leading up to the Spring or the Fall rose shows -- but you will have to do it.

OR you can just say that exhibiting Hybrid Tea Roses competitively isn't worth it -- which is what we decided, years ago and what a great many other people have also decided.

Jeri


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

The following was stated: "The testing that was done that promoted the caution was done with amounts that far exceed what the average rose gardener would use in 3 lifetimes."
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H. Kuska comment. The above statement would be useful if the only danger was to immediately kill (Acute Toxicity). However, testing may also try to determine long time range negative effects (examples: Cancer, Developmental or Reproductive Toxin, and/or Endocrine Disruptor) i.e. determine if something will be harmful 20 or 30 years after a low dose exposure or exposures to similar acting chemicals.

Since the obvious method - apply a low dose to humans and observe for 20 or 30 years is not a practical procedure, high concentration experiments on a finite number of animals (or laboratory cell cultures) for a practical time exposure is a common first step substitute. If this first step substitute indicates a possible problem, then I recommend application of the Precautionary Principle while further definitive testing is carried out (unless one wants to volunter to be what I call "a beta tester").

I will use a diet cancer example but similar testing must be made for other long term potential problems.

"Scientific and medical evaluations continue for pesticides shown to cause cancer in laboratory animals. The evaluation process is extremely complex, uses highly sophisticated mathematical models, and assumes a daily exposure over a 70 year period. The ultimate outcome is to predict the potential increase in cancer cases, from laboratory animals exposed to high concentrations to humans exposed to low level residues in their diets. EPA will allow the use of a pesticide on a food crop if the estimated risk of its causing cancer is one in a million or less. The likelihood of any person developing cancer from a lifetime exposure range of zero to one in a million has been coined the negligible risk standard, or the de minimis interpretation. The general rule of thumb is that EPA will not grant a food tolerance for pesticides that are estimated to increase cancer rates in excess of the current one-in-a-million guideline."

Here is a link that might be useful: link for article containing the above quote


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Scientific research articles are expected to cite the previous important research. This January 2012 article is available free on the internet. The topic of the research is too complex to add to this discussion. However, the following part of the introduction gives a nice summary of research that should be useful in deciding whether one should apply the precautionary principle to exposing unnessarily you, your family, and your neighbors to this chemical.

"Tebuconazole, [(RS)-1-p-chlorophenyl-4,4-dimethyl-3-(1H-1,2,4-triazol-1-ylmethyl)pentan-3-ol] (Fig. 1), was classified as the sterol demethylation inhibitor fungicide due to its inhibiting ability of synthesis of ergosterol.1 It was one of the best selling fungicides in the world and was used in a wide range of crops, including cereals, vegetables, nuts, and grapes, to control fungi such as powdery mildew, leaf spot, rust, and root rot. Because of its broad application, many animals as well as humans can be exposed to this compound. Tebuconazole was one kind of toxicant for the aquatic organisms as it might induce a long-term adverse effect on the aquatic environment. Some literature also showed that it can exist in the environment for a long period of time.2�5 Furthermore, animals were sensitive to the influence of pesticides because they were able to uptake and retain xenobiotic from circumstance via active or passive processes. So it might lead to an adverse effect on animals. In spite of low acute toxicity, tebuconazole has been proved that it could provoke adrenal gland hypertrophy in chronic dog studies and teratogenic effects in mice.6 Sancho et al.7 showed that short-term exposure to sublethal tebuconazole induced physiological impairment in male zebrafish. Another literature proved that tricyclazole could cause endocrine reproduction effect among other disruptive effects on fish physiology in zebrafish.8 Prochloraz and tebuconazole showed a similar pattern of toxicity as profeminization effects in rats has been demonstrated by Taxvig et al.9 Tebuconazole has been cited as a potential neurotoxicant10 that might result in functional endocrine and immune alterations."

Here is a link that might be useful: full paper with above quote


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

In addition to studies on the compound alone, there is now recognition that unexpected effects could occur due to mixtures of compounds.

One very recent example: "Adverse effects on sexual development in rat offspring after low dose exposure to a mixture of endocrine disrupting pesticides"

"Abstract
The present study investigated whether a mixture of low doses of five environmentally relevant endocrine disrupting pesticides, epoxiconazole, mancozeb, prochloraz, tebuconazole and procymidone, would cause adverse developmental toxicity effects in rats. In rat dams, a significant increase in gestation length was seen, while in male offspring increased nipple retention and increased incidence and severity of genital malformations were observed. Severe mixture effects on gestation length, nipple retention and genital malformations were seen at dose levels where the individual pesticides caused no or smaller effects when given alone. Generally, the mixture effect predictions based on dose-additivity were in good agreement with the observed effects. The results indicate that there is a need for modification of risk assessment procedures for pesticides, in order to take account of the mixture effects and cumulative intake, because of the potentially serious impact of mixed exposure on development and reproduction in humans."

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Why would someone be mixing together 5 different pesticides?

Kate


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

The individual pesticides can enter your body by different routes.

"Both animals and humans may be exposed to these chemicals in the environment, or via water or the food chain where the chemicals can build up."

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above quote


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Actually, I really do wish the sexual development of rats to be impaired . . .

:-)

Jeri


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Why would someone be mixing together 5 different pesticides?

They wouldn't. It's called "graduate student needed something to do that hasn't already been done."


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Please. folks, lets not scoff without understanding. You get one fungicide in your coffee, another in your tomatoes, another in your peanuts, another in the rose garden, another in athlete's foot medicine, etc. If there are groups of pesticides that act collectively on the body, then regulators need to consider that when setting exposure limits. So learning about such groups is an eminently sensible field of research.


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

Thank you for that explanation, michael.

Kate


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RE: Bayer Advanced Disease Control--is it safe to use?

If the odor of the spray bothers you wear a respirator with the right cartridge on it. I have been using Bayer Rose Disease Control for three years now with no problems. I do alternate my fungicide treatments so I won't get any resistance.


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