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sara_ann_gw

I didn't know roses were controversial

sara_ann-z6bok
9 years ago

I must be really naive, I didn't know roses could be controversial, but apparently they can be. I became interested in growing roses in the mid 1980's, once I had success, I was hooked. Because of familiarity I have grown mostly hybrid teas and floribundas, but I love all roses and am trying to grow roses from different classes, especially some of the older varieties.

I guess it's human nature to have disagreements, but I never thought roses should be something we should be disagreeable about. I know we all have our favorite kinds we grow, I don't begrudge anyone not liking the kind I grow and I hope they would feel the same.

There are some who like to exhibit. I am not competitive by nature, but I certainly don't have a problem with those who are. I know it takes some effort to have those rose show beauties. As long as something brings enjoyment I'm all for it.

I've always felt like I've been somewhat alone in my rose growing, because I live in a very small community, with not very many who seem to be interested in this hobby. I wanted to be on this forum for the simple reason that I do love roses and wanted to share with others who love roses as much as I do. There are some wonderful people on here and I do enjoy it very much. I hate it when someone gets testy or has an attitude of superiority toward other posters, I think that kind of behavior is uncalled for. I know there are those on here who are much more experienced and knowledgeable than I am and I recognize who you are and most of you are so kind and helpful and I appreciate that.

I would think the reason for any hobby would be because we enjoy it and want to share with others who love it as much as we do. Of course mother nature makes sure we have plenty of problems trying to enjoy this rose hobby. This past winter was a great example of that, I felt a deep sadness when so many of you lost so many roses. We share in the good and bad, I just hope we can all do with kindness and consideration.

Comments (48)

  • dbarron
    9 years ago

    Roses are very controversial....every time I walk through a rose garden, I hear them whispering controversial things (lol).
    We all have off days...and sometimes something that someone else says bites deeper than anyone would imagine. However, part of socializing is learning to overlook at least some of these things.

  • toolbelt68
    9 years ago

    Have you heard the old joke about the guy who had just entered prison and was amazed when someone called out a number and the whole place just roared with laughter. He asked his cell mate, whatâÂÂs that all about. The cell mate said that we have heard the same joke over and over so many times that we just numbered them. The guy then decides to try it. He calls out a number and not a sound. He looks at his cell mate who says, âÂÂWell some people can tell them and others canâÂÂt!.âÂÂ

    That is sort of the way most forums are. If you havenâÂÂt been here long enough you get very little laughter when you call out a number. Thank God this forum isnâÂÂt as bad as most. You do get answers that are helpful and youâÂÂll learn a lot if you hang around.

    #3579â¦â¦.

  • boncrow66
    9 years ago

    Well said Sara-Ann, I just want to say that I have learned a lot from this forum and I always enjoy your posts and pics of your beautiful roses. I agree some people have stronger opinions than others but I guess that's what keeps it interesting. Toolbelt, I relate to your prison joke lol.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Was there a real big disagreement?

  • sara_ann-z6bok
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Jeri - I am not talking about any disagreement in particular. Most people on here are kind and considerate, but occasionally I guess maybe someone does have an off day like dbarron said. I probably made too much of an accumulation of experiences over the past 15 months of being a member here. I do love this forum though. Boncrow - I enjoy your posts very much too.

  • harryshoe zone6 eastern Pennsylvania
    9 years ago

    Sadly, there are some people here who believe that they have ascended to the height of the evolutionary scale solely because they grow only OGR's and do not stoop to grow such horrors as Hybrid Teas or, heaven forbid, Knockouts!

    They look down upon us commoners and don't miss a chance to remind us of our lowly status.

  • seil zone 6b MI
    9 years ago

    Everyone is entitled to their opinions, likes and dislikes. We just all need to respect and accept those things in each other. Growing up I was only exposed to HTs and Floris but then I joined here and was introduced to OGRs and other types of roses. I've learned to appreciate the beauty in all types now and I try to appreciate the the view points of all the posters here as well.

  • dbarron
    9 years ago

    And I think you're all cretins because you don't grow only pure species (so there)! (just teasing)

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    I'm not being a Pollyanna -- but there is a real danger with Internet messages, of messages taking on a "tone" that the writer did not intend. Feelings, then, get hurt.

    And ... And ... sometimes, people really are curt. Or really DO feel that they invented the wheel. I have to admit -- there have been times when I've thrown my hands up and absented myself from these forums for long periods.

    It's so easy to forget that the "formula" for a perfect garden in your conditions is not necessarily the right one in someone else's conditions. And that some of us have to find our own path.

    Jeri

  • sandandsun
    9 years ago

    I am proud of my innocence. Its destruction (in the sense of increased awareness) over the course of my life does not reflect badly upon me or my innocence. There is a difference between understanding bad things because one does them and understanding them because one observes or experiences them. Fortunately, good people can learn from horrible things that are done to them or others and still be good people.

    jerijen quite tactfully makes a great point:

    "It's so easy to forget that the "formula" for a perfect garden in your conditions is not necessarily the right one in someone else's conditions."

    The problem with tact, sadly, is that the discretion involved requires sophistication (vs. naivety) from the reader. The reader must be able to recognize the subtleties.

    I am often NOT tactful when making a point about bad behavior on these forums. I am completely unapologetic about this because without pointing out the specifics of the bad behavior, the casual reader might never correctly conclude what the real issues are and why they are bad.

    "It's so easy to forget that the "formula" for a perfect garden in your conditions is not necessarily the right one in someone else's conditions."

    May our labors not be in vain.

    Happy Labor Day!

    This post was edited by sandandsun on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 20:08

  • emrogers
    9 years ago

    I'd like to weigh in here to say that all of you are right and jerijen you're absolutely right!! In this age of texting, emailing, posting sometimes things are lost in translation.
    I will say that I picked up gardening about two years ago and it consumed me!!!! Meaning all I did was think and worry about my poor hydrangeas that I bought because they were pretty and I literally thought you dig a hole and water and things just look like the magazines!!! Ha!! Well I stumbled across GW and I posted questions and guess what?! I got answers AND the "looks like you have bigger issues than plants" comment also was thrown in there. yes my whole yard was a working progress because I'm young and starting out in my home. Duh! (It's mine though and I'm mortgage free!!!) ðÂÂÂand it HURT my feelings!!!!! I was also angry that adults could treat others this way.
    Look I'm 32 years old and I do NOT want to offend ANYONE here but I literally dismissed it as an old retired person who was more than likely miserable. Before I get chewed out for this comment I will say that in college I worked at a retirement home and LOVED it and loved my residents!!!!!! âºï¸Ââºï¸Ââº︠I feared posting again because I feel I sound dumb and immature and I do sometimes BUT I'm learning ðÂÂÂðÂÂÂ

    I try and practice compassion everyday and be respectful and polite to others but unfortunately not everyone has the same mindset!

    I recognize your names and some of you have helped me out and I'm grateful for that. ( I grow roses now too ðÂÂÂ)

    Sara-Ann I must admit that some of the arguing makes just laugh because it's kinda dumb.

    Sorry for rambling!!!!

    Elce

  • ken-n.ga.mts
    9 years ago

    I've been on this form for a LONG time (Central Fl, S.E. Fl, and now up here) The one thing I have noticed over the years is the folks who just have to have "their" way, usually kind of slowly make an exit after a while. The folks I really feel for are the new one's that ask questions and would like a decent answer. Not a lecture. When push comes to shove, a rose bush is nothing more then a flowering shrub. This hobby of growing this shrub is NOT a life or death situation. If someone asks a question concerning this shrub, they should be given an answer, not a lecture on what they should, or should not do to make someone else happy. There is no such thing as a "dumb" question but I have seen some wild conversations over the years because someone might not like an answer to to a question. A persons response to a question speaks volumes about who and what they are. That's why some answers to good questions end up being "where did this come from".

  • sammy zone 7 Tulsa
    9 years ago

    I am not aware of any problems, and hope I have not caused them. I mainly grow older rose varieties because they do not require spray in my garden, and they are pretty to me.

    Through the years I have posted many remarks, and seldom proof what I say.

    I enjoy these forums, and do not enjoy debates. Different opinions are a learning experience, but debates often become personal and hurtful.

    I hope I was not the culprit.

  • Brittie - La Porte, TX 9a
    9 years ago

    People CAN be pretty snippy and particular, and I admit that it's why I don't post often. I tend to stick to forums that are more easy going like the rose gallery and the daylily forum. I tend to get the LOL's from some of the arguments too though.

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    9 years ago

    Sammy, I've never known you to be anything but nice and helpful, so I would say definitely it's not you. There's really only one person I've encountered here who can be rather brusque and opinionated, but that would not keeping me from enjoying the vast majority of nice people here, including you.

    Ingrid

  • sara_ann-z6bok
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Brittie- I enjoy the Rose Gallery too.

  • buford
    9 years ago

    Roses aren't controversial. People are. People will argue over anything. There was a huge fight once in the Compost Forum. So people were literally fighting over poop.

  • Kippy
    9 years ago

    It seems to me like there are a lot of Rose Controversies.

    There is the Love or Hate of Knock Outs/ Icebergs, probably fueled by what some see as over use and how that effects the rest of the roses and how they are offered. For an example, I went to buy a common part for an every day product. We bought the more expensive brand to start with because they do not break as off often as a cheaper version made with plastic and cheap metal. Only now HD does not stock this replacement part because they do not need to be replaced as often as the cheap version. Kind of the same with roses, the more Knock Outs/Icebergs sold, the fewer other roses make it to mass market. It does not mean they are not good roses, just that the more of them that are sold, the fewer others get sold.

    And then there is the David Austin group, some people love them and others not so much. I think they all have their own reasons, maybe it is that DA breeds for a look, health second. On the other hand, selling that look might bring new people to the land of roses (I can vouch for that personally) And like many other roses, some might do better than others, or have different growth habits and watering needs. This all plays in to how people feel about them. Also DA has some great people marketing their plants. Wonderful photos and what is often marketed as a premium product. Something to learn from them on that.

    Then there are the people that like high centered, quartered, cupped, or extra large or long stemmed roses and buds vs those that like singles or sprays or nodding....etc Those are often based one personal style preferences but for some it is like saying your shoes look bad with your shirt.

    And then there are those who come asking for help, but unwilling to accept answers or want to give details on care. We would not go to the doctor and tell them we have a pain with out expecting to be asked some basic questions. Yet some bristle.

    Or those that like a traditional layout of a garden vs informal cottage looks.

    Or those that will not buy based on the history of the company or breeder

    Or those that spay or no spray

    Or those who exhibit and those who don't

    I think the list goes on and on, but on this forum there is one constant in that we all love roses.

  • sara_ann-z6bok
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    There have been some interesting points made here. Sammy, I have certainly enjoyed you on this forum, I appreciate your advice and comments.

    I don't mind that we have different tastes and varying opinions, and we should certainly express those. I think we should always be thoughtful and considerate in the way we express ourselves.

    I like what Ken said, "a rose bush is nothing more then a flowering shrub. This hobby of growing this shrub is NOT a life or death situation."

    There are plenty of things in this life to be stressed about, roses and the love of growing them shouldn't be one, at least as much as mother nature will allow us not to be.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    " . . . People will argue over anything. There was a huge fight once in the Compost Forum. So people were literally fighting over poop. '
    ========

    *** That is HYSTERICAL!
    Thanks for the laugh. :-)

    Jeri

  • Kippy
    9 years ago

    In the post war years things were hard for my grandmother and her neighbors. They had little to burn for their heaters and a thing like a big horse poop pile in the street was a hot commodity. Grandma and her neighbor had the street "split down the middle" for who got to collect the manure. Grandma never forgot the time the neighbor lady took HER pile. I think they both kept that grudge to their graves never really trusting each other. All over a pile of poop.

  • dublinbay z6 (KS)
    9 years ago

    Kippy--now that is an interesting tidbit. Never would have occurred to me that busy little housewives would be dashing out to the street to claim "their' poop pile. How funny!

    But now that I think of it, how pragmatic our grandmothers and great-grandmothers were. Free manure is where you find it!

    Kate

  • dbarron
    9 years ago

    And family feuds are nothing new...they've just moved into the Internet age.

  • kentucky_rose zone 6
    9 years ago

    Sara, great thread. There are so many variables in growing roses. I find it stimulating and enabling to have access to a website with so many people from different places that share their rose experiences, whether it's good or bad on different aspects of growing roses. The saying that beauty is in the eye of the beholder is so true. I've attached a picture of the roses that I took to friends/acquaintances at Donut Days. It's interesting to watch which "beauty" they chose.

  • sara_ann-z6bok
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Kentucky_rose - You have put so much care and love into those arrangements and even adding the special touch of the baby's breath makes them that much lovelier. I always think homemade bouquets are more special, they're more personal. I used to share my roses more than I do now. I would take them to work and some people noticed, some didn't. It's a good feeling though, when someone else enjoys them.

  • boncrow66
    9 years ago

    I have enjoyed this thread and I agree with what everyone has had to say. I think the hardest thing to do is to interpret tone in text as Jeri pointed out. The little nuances of a persons tone in their voice are lost as it's hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic or humorous and that can lead to hurt feelings. I don't think that anyone on the forum ever intends to hurt someone's feelings by offering advice or expressing their opinions. That's the great thing about this forum and it's how I have learned about roses and different ideas on how to fertilize and tips on BS.....everyone's different options and their own experience in their garden. I like hearing what everyone has to say and then figuring out what will work for me. Kippy I love your story of your grandmother and horse manure in the street.....I admire strong woman who did what they needed to survive. I'm just glad to have a resource of information on roses from woman all over the country and men too, don't want to leave the guys out :). Sure I could google most of my answers but how fun is that?? I think basic kindness goes along way and that is all I have encountered on this forum. I appreciate the info and encouragement that YES I CAN DO THIS! To quote my granny, "Pretty is as pretty does". Ok I have rattled on for long enough, I hope everyone had a great Labor Day weekend.

  • diane_nj 6b/7a
    9 years ago

    If this is in response to your question on the exhibiting thread, here is a little more info. As I said, back years ago when Spike still owned the forum, many exhibitors did post here on the Roses Forum. Some exhibitors, depending on their location, discussed their regular use of fungicides, complicated fertilizing regimens, and use of insecticides. There was push back from some other members against these practices, and Spike created the Exhibiting forum. As the use of fungicides, etc., tends to create some discussions here, I suggested that the exhibitors move their discussion on the Exhibiting forum. Not to limit anyone's experience, but there were some (still) hurt feelings from those discussions, and I have many exhibiting friends who will not return to GW.

    I don't care where a question is asked, but it is so difficult to get new exhibitors at our shows, and I don't want anyone who is interested in exhibiting to get heat. Knowledge, yes, we all need to be knowledgeable on the effects of the use of pesticides.

  • roseseek
    9 years ago

    It seems one of the handiest take-aways from the thread is to give the benefit of the doubt and not be quite as ready to take offense. As has been stated, it's impossible to determine tone without voice, facial and body expressions. I'm sure most times when something seemed a bit "off", had questions been asked, there would have been good explanations and probably apologies for unintended hurt feelings. Kim

  • sara_ann-z6bok
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Kim - You've made an excellent point.

    Something else I've thought about too. Being thoughtful works both ways. On this forum I have been more of an advice seeker than an advice giver. I do appreciate very much when someone takes the time to answer my many questions, I have seen threads where someone seeks advice and there will be many good suggestions, but they're never heard from again on that thread. I think if someone takes the time and effort to give us an answer or suggestion it should be acknowledged. I don't think anyone wants to be taken for granted.

  • seil zone 6b MI
    9 years ago

    That's very true, Sara. I think the ones that hit and run like that really aren't into roses and just want a quick fix. They go online and find us, ask a question, get an answer and they're off. They got what they needed and aren't really interested in roses enough to want more interaction. It doesn't bother me. If I can answer someone's question that's enough. If someone wants to discuss roses at more length, like yourself, that's even better and we welcome them into the fold!

  • roseseek
    9 years ago

    Yes ma'am, excellent point, Courtesy and thoughtfullness goes both ways. Thanks. Kim

  • boncrow66
    9 years ago

    I have to admit I found the forum by googling a question and it led me to the forum and I liked it so much I stuck around! My young adult daughter also made a good point about social media that since you aren't face to face or know the other person it's easy to maybe be more snippy than you normally would.

  • susan4952
    9 years ago

    When I first joined the forum, someone called my Austin's the Big Mac and fries of the rose community.

  • boncrow66
    9 years ago

    Yes it's not nice for someone to intentionally say things to hurt others feeling or target just one individual for their opinion. If you can't say somethig nice, then don't say anything at all.

  • susan4952
    9 years ago

    And don't forget the shake. !

  • ArbutusOmnedo 10/24
    9 years ago

    I agree with essentially all of what's been said above. I'm basically a newcomer to this forum and roses, but I found and stayed with the forum just like boncrow66. Just about anyone can search for roses on the internet. There are bound to be some people who are less personable, worried about absolutes, or aware/concerned with how they come off to others who they will likely not meet.

    The "lost in translation" and "faceless" aspects of the internet make it difficult to avoid ambiguities and, sadly, insult. Fortunately, the majority of the posters here are wonderful people and happy to share their time and knowledge with inquisitive minds. We're all here to share our enjoyment of roses in one way or another. That is the bottom-line.

    Voicing your opinion on practices some consider questionable is fair I think. It's important to spread awareness of the most up to date scientific stances on "controversial" subjects without attacking or pointing fingers at anyone. That said, less potentially serious topics cause rifts too. People really will argue about even the most subjective, trivial things. It's best to simply offer an opinion without framing it as infallible. Tastes change, we try new things, and what was my favorite rose last year may just be alright by my standards in a few years time. Getting caught up in matters of style is silly.

    I'm very glad I found the forum. I would have made a lot more dumb mistakes without the information I've been given here by patient, kind people. I'd probably still be waiting on blooms from Mme. Hardy if not for Jeri. For each case of controversy, I feel like there are many more very helpful, friendly interactions that are more representative of the forum.

    Jay

  • Jasminerose, California, USDA 9b/Sunset 18
    9 years ago

    As a person who comes to this forum seeking advice, I appreciate the long time posters here and the comments they have to offer. I also appreciate the newcomers who ask the right questions. Maybe someday I'll be able to pay it forward and offer advice myself. What I don't understand is how people manage to shrug off some really hurtful comments in order to keep on helping others. I'm not sure if I would be able to do the same. I would sure miss them if they left. So to those of you who have been a target of a rude comment (intentional or otherwise), please know that most of us here sincerely enjoy what you have to contribute.

    This post was edited by jasminerose4u on Tue, Sep 2, 14 at 2:49

  • boncrow66
    9 years ago

    Some people just like to stir the pot and are just plain mean and in my opinion the best way to deal with that is to IGNORE them.

  • sara_ann-z6bok
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Boncrow - You are so right, we should ignore them. That's not always easy though!

  • boncrow66
    9 years ago

    Sara-Ann I know it's easier said than done and sometimes I can't keep my mouth shut, especially if I feel someone is being unfairly picked on. But for the most part I am a laid back and happy person and I'm not going to let people I have never met stress me out lol.

  • meredith_e Z7b, Piedmont of NC, 1000' elevation
    9 years ago

    That pile of poop story is one of the best stories I've ever heard! Bwahahaha!

    If I'm ever snippy or obnoxious, please nobody take me seriously. I'll love you again in a half second. I just come from a long line of people who would argue over poop. Like generations of folks known for their bickering, seriously. These tough old women out here who raised my dad did not hold back!

    Some people may be like my quirky elders that way. It's still rude (even if they'd never admit that), but it might not be meant to be actually hurtful.

  • sandandsun
    9 years ago

    I know that it's cliche that Persephone's pomegranate path was paved with deception, but cliches are cliche for a reason.

  • sandandsun
    9 years ago

    Sure, my asserted cliche isn't the one in circulation, but my version is more accurate and true to the mythic lesson.

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    9 years ago

    Susan, if the Austins like the gorgeous one in your picture are a Big Mac and fries, I'd like a triple order please!

    Ingrid

  • boncrow66
    9 years ago

    Haha good one Ingrid! Make it a supersize order lol

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago

    Ok who has the link to the poop fight I'd like to read that? lol
    By the way great thread Sara Ann! :-)

  • buford
    9 years ago

    It was awhile ago. The discussion was about when to put manure in the soil and the effect on plants. Two people disagreed and it got ugly.

    This year, our society had some controversy with the title of our Fall Rose Show. It was originally to be Christmas in Roseland, but that had to be changed because it might 'offend' some people.

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