Hi Susan, how likely is it winter where you are is going to be severe enough to actually freeze any growth on your roses? I think that should be the deciding factor. Here, that is virtually never going to happen. I COULD continue feeding the same year round if I wanted to. They'd probably do better because it's during winter we SHOULD have rain.

I would think just keeping them as healthy as possible, feeding them whatever is usually appropriate for the time of year would be best. What does it serve to force a bunch of soft, sappy, water growth only to have it all frozen off? That just seems a waste of time, fertilizer, water and energy.

If you'd normally be giving them a lower nitrogen, higher potassium and phosphorous type now, that's what I'd do. Even if you tried the higher nitrogen right now, would any new growth have sufficient time to properly harden off before the worst of your winter hits? If not, don't waste the time and fertilizer. Just do what's worked for you before. Kim

Susan (if I may butt in), your roses will grow until mid or late November, and growth that starts as late as Oct 1 will have time to mature. During August, there is no reason to be trying to prepare your roses for winter. Actually, in Nashville, your roses will be mostly cane-hardy regardless of what you do between now and winter.

I fertilize normally until late September or early October and have been doing so for decades.

Also, roses need all 13 soil nutrients to grow healthy roots, and roses need all 13 soil nutrients to grow healthy tops. We cannot make the rose do one thing or another by fertilizing in a particular way. Garden books have been repeating misinformation about that since the early 20th century. Linda Chalker-Scott refers to these beliefs as faith in "mineral magic." The link discusses one such belief.

Here is a link that might be useful: myth of potassium for hardiness

Thanks Michael. Not having lived where there has been real "cold", I haven't had the opportunity to experiment with any of that. Yes, the old garden could sometimes dip to fifteen degrees, but those bounces were anomalies and did nothing to any of the plants except the very tender bulbs. Their foliage turned into slime, but they exploded back with a vengeance the following spring. The roses just thumbed their noses at those dips and kept doing what they wanted. Kim

Thanks Kim, and especially Michael. I appreciate your contributions to my questions Michael because you take the time to explain and you are very patient with those of us newbies. If it's ok from now on may I address questions to "Michael and Kim" or "Kim and Michael"? LOL
Michael I know you are much closer to me. Could you share your fertilizing regime with me? When you fertilize "normally" what do you do and what do you use and how frequent?
I know I read somewhere to stop fertilizing at Labor Day... but I'm sure that was a glittering generality.
Do you grow any teas Michael?
Thanks so much!!!

Thank you Michael! I'm down the road from Susan and you answered a question I've had as well since I was wondering how late I can be throwing on the compost I use as mulch.

I agree with Michael totally. August is too early to start prepping for winter in your zone. I'm pretty sure I'm a zone colder than you and I don't start any kind of prepping here until October either. Particularly lately since I've been having blooms in November up to about Thanksgiving recently. I know you can't predict that sort of thing but it's better to wait and see and sort of play it by ear on the weather. I fertilize mine right into the fall because I want them to go into winter well fed. Yes, there is always a little bit of late growth that gets lost but in my experience I have that anyway whether I fertilize them or not.

Same for zone 5.

I think it's best not to address general questions to individuals.

Susan, I do not grow any old teas. Since I've become unable to drive, I make choices based on minimizing bulk and trips to the store. Currently I use mostly high-N lawn fertilizer because my soil has adequate P and K. I use Miracle Gro or equivalent on young own-root plants.

A regime that would work in almost any conditions is 1 cup of Rose Tone or Plant Tone every 6-8 weeks until early fall (mid or late September for you). This provides everything the roses might want--appropriate NPK, trace and minors, and alfalfa. It will continue to release nutrients until the end of the growing season. Use 1-1/2 cups for very large plants.

When using only fast-release nitrogen, I would continue until early October in zone 7a. I use 1 TB of lawn fertilizer or 3 TB of 10-10-10 every 4-6 weeks, depending on rainfall and soil texture (clay retains nutrients, sand does not). 10-10-10 plus alfalfa pellets is a good low-cost program.

Michael, as always, thank you for the help. 1 C of Rose Tone or equivalent--would I work that into the drip line or closer to the main trunk? How deeply should I go?
What about foliar feeding? How effective is that? Seems like I read that foliar feeding is like a quick shot of steroids and organics are like a long term diet. Is that a fallacy?
Would it be overkill to work in the organics every 8 weeks AND foliar feed?
Could you explain to me when/why one would choose to use only fast-release nitrogen as opposed to Rose Tone or equivalent.
When you say you use 3 TB of 10-10-10 every 4-6 weeks is that scratched in and per rose and then I would add handful of alfalfa pellets?
I have a rabbit so alfalfa pellets are no problem--neither is rabbit poo for that matter. HA.
I guess I'd just like my roses to get the best result for the amount of time I have available. Foliar feeding is just so easy but I'm not sure how beneficial it is.
I don't have a problem scratching in before I put down mulch but to pull back mulch and scratch in 3 times per season requires more time than I have....
Thank you again, I really appreciate your experienced advice.
Susan

Rabbit food has salt added, so you should use horse feed (plain alfalfa) instead. Roses have such shallow roots that I would not scratch any fertilizer in. Organic fertilizer is best placed under the mulch. I just scatter it within the drip line--just don't make deep piles of any fertilizer. With manufactured fertilizer, I scatter it over the mulch and water it--less than 1" of water will dissolve it. You can do this with organic fertilizer too, but it might take a year for some of the nutrients to reach the root zone, because they are not soluble.

I am currently using manufactured fertilizer because it is cheaper and easier and less bulky. There is no particular horticultural advantage. At certain times you might want to apply fast nitrogen, but there is some of that in Rose Tone and Plant Tone--not in all organic fertilizers.

Great. That makes things easier! Am I correct in assuming you don't foliar fertilize?
Susan

Foliar feeding will green them up faster than soil application as it is actually absorbed right into all the plant parts, so the nutrients don't have to travel up the plant to get to the foliage. If you've ever used anything like the Miracle Gro No Clog or Liquid Feeders, you've foliar fed, as well as applied it to the soil. Of course, the same rules about not feeding a dry plant apply. Kim

I'm having trouble with big bags and moving mulch, too. Thanks for the advice on manufactured fertilizer, Michaelg. Anything that makes our practice easier is welcomed as we get older. When my shrubs defoliate, I spray with fish emulsion, and they leaf out within a week. It is almost like a miracle.

I dpn't foliar fertilize. Using Miracle Gro (etc) in the hose-end sprayer is convenient but expensive, and it needs to be done frequently because you are delivering only a small amount of fertilizer each time.

I do often add seaweed extract to my fungicide spray. It contains growth stimulants, but the actual nutrient content is trivial.

Can anyone explain why, as lainey2 says, fish emulsion
would make your plants add extra leaves?

andrea

Fish emulsion is generally a guaranteed analysis of 2-2-0. 2% nitrogen, 2% phosphorous, no potassium. If the rose required more of what it offered to produce new foliage, this could stimulate it. There may be other micronutrients included which don't appear on the guaranteed analysis which may also have an impact. Plus, you're adding more nitrogen (which soil bacteria require to begin their processing of organics in the soil until they generate their own) and something organic (created from something which used to be living) to the soil in any over spray and that provides the soil bacteria and fungi something to "eat", stimulating them to release other nutrients from the organic contents of the soil as those are "digested".

If the fish emulstion is applied by hose end sprayer, there is a great deal of extra water applied with the product. That could tip the plant into producing more foliage. If it's applied by pump sprayer, the effects could more easily be isolated to the actual nutrients applied as there usually isn't a lot of water applied through pump sprayers compared to hose end types. Kim

Thanks....The fertilizer I use has more nutrients (correct wd?) So why wouldn't mine stimulate new leaves also?
Unless, of course, the plants getting the emulsion are not routinely getting the nutrition they need.

andrea

All of the thresholds for each variable must be met before growth appears. If they have everything they require EXCEPT whatever the fish emulsion provides, it can seem like the only cause. If Michael's plants have more appropriate temperatures to foster growth than yours, his will probably push new foliage where yours won't. It all depends upon WHAT is preventing the plant from responding they way you wish. Probably, Michael's garden has received more rain with less high heat stress then many of the rest of us have. There are just too many unknown variables to accurately provide the right answer without a lot more information and research. Kim

Kim,

Great, and very logical, answer.

andrea (now back to my new quest - Old Tea Roses! I'm
excited at the prospect. Hope you will look at my newer post.....)

Yes, hort and ag scientists refer to the "growth limiter." Plants need adequate levels of 13 nutrients plus air, sunshine, comfortable temperatures, and water. If one is deficient, that limits growth. Nitrogen is the most common limiter among the soil/fertilizer elements. But in US gardens in summer, heat and drought often play a bigger role in slowing growth than the nutrient supply.

My roses have done OK this summer, but a little below par, despite an oversupply of water. Thinking about Kim's post made me wonder if a lack of sunshine has slowed things down. The roses have half shade to begin with, and the other half has been overcast maybe three-fourths of the time since late June. Local figs are weeks late in ripening.

Welcome to the "Southern California Coast", Michael! LOL! Kim

I use a small hand sprayer for fish emulsion. If you spray in 90 degree sun, the leaves will burn. Just give it a try. It's cheap and easy. You may be very surprised.