Melissa, what a wonderful observation! Thank you! A thought, alfalfa tea didn't trigger chlorosis for Jeri in her alkaline conditions. Alfalfa pellets did for you in yours. I wonder if there was an insufficient available nitrogen source for the soil bacteria to begin digesting the physical alfalfa, so they robbed it from the plants to get things "cooking"? Perhaps the growth hormones and other beneficial elements of the alfalfa steep out into the water and didn't require the extra nitrogen for digestion?

I've experienced the temporary chlorosis when top dressing with fresh horse manure, but with ample water and heat, it levels out quickly and the plants greened up fast.

Definitely something deserving of further exploration and observation. Very interesting, thank you! Kim

And, since we have always had dogs here, we've never used alfalfa in solid form because I might as well just pour it in the dog dishes and have done with it.

Tea goes directly into the ground, so the dogs don't have the opportunity to steal it.

(You don't want to know about the time we tried putting out "Mills Magic Rose Mix"!!!)

Jeri

I have the same experience as Roseseek regarding horse manure (it greens up fast only after heavy rain). If you look at my notes in the thread "Help with my sick rose", I get these info. from the reference book, Botanica's Roses:

Young leaves are pale green: lack of nitrogen - apply urea or blood, or sulphate of ammonia for alkaline soil.

Yellowish leaves: lack of iron - apply "Sequestrene" granules, or iron chelates.

Very acidic soils can be fixed by the addition of lime or spent mushroom compost, which has a high chalk content. High alkalinity can be reduced by the addition of peat or manure, or sulphate of ammonia.

We have lots of limestone in zone 5a Illinois, and slightly alkaline soil. Pat of Roseownrootunlimited has this instruction regarding planting roses: 2 cups of alfafa meal per hole. I did that to all 8 roses, except two. Alfafa meal has the root stimulation hormone Triacontanol, which is great for young roses.

The 8 roses are deep green and robust. The other 2 roses, since I forgot to put the alfafa meal in the hole, I put on top. These are half the size of the other robust ones. There's a description about how alfafa meal placed too closed to the root zone can burn the root.

Conclusion: alfafa meal works best as in tea, or in a wet basin of dirt, after being rained on. It does not work well on top, since it dries up, and cakes like glue, plus you risk burning the roots if applied too closed to the trunk - that would choke up the leaves, and making it yellow in a dry and hot condition.

To acidify the soil, I like peat moss the most. It retains moisture, and doesn't add any salt to the soil like other chemical additives. It breaks up my clay soil pretty well.

For Roseseek: what does the book mean by, "fix acidic soil with the addition or lime, or SPENT MUSHROOM COMPOST, WHICH HAS A HIGH CHALK CONTENT" - is that what Melissa is talking about? Many thanks for your expertise.

When I researched extensively on "Epsom Salt" to see if it's worth applying, there's one experiment where Epsom salt greens up the lawn. Anyone else have such luck greening up their roses' leaves with epsom salt?

Hi Jeri,

Well there are many variables that could influence our results. Such as what is your soil ph in comparison to mine and is your water more or less acid than mine. I know even in my city the soil varies quite a lot (as the Rancho Santa Ana Botanic Gardens even mentions their differing soils on their website, and the RSABG is fairly close to me). The combination of soil and water differences may produce varying results with plants fed alfalfa. Also the origin of the alfalfa in your tea (where was *it* grown) as well as how strong the tea is. Are there components to your soil that would mitigate the ph raising effects of alfalfa? Just things to ponder. Also the individual roses that we each grow and their tolerances to ph ranges. I'd be curious how Reine des Violettes in particular did for you.

Here is my Reine des Violettes (photo taken July 19, 2011), purchased from Greenmantle in February 2011 and planted in the ground right away (note alfalfa pellets on ground in background under other plants): {{gwi:318786}}From Reine des Violettes

In fact I bought 3 plants at the same time from Greenmantle--Reine des Violettes (not fed alfalfa), Tipsy Imperial Concubine (given a very small amount of alfalfa), Duchesse de Rohan (given a moderate amount of alfalfa). All planted on the same day, adjacent each other, mulched with shredded redwood bark, watered on the same days by hand, same hose. All were growing nicely looked about equally green. Then I fed the alfalfa. One shut down growing and turned the same sickly color as Jenny Duval. That was Duchesse de Rohan. I haven't removed the alfalfa and her color has not improved.

Then I have a species rose of which I have three, R. alabukensis. You might know this rose, Kim. I put one (15 gallon size) in the ground using Edna's Best and mulched with the redwood bark. Foliage a lovely dark green. I put one in a 15 gallon pot with only Edna's Best and mulched with the redwood bark. Number 3 I put in a 15 gallon pot in plain garden soil, and mulched with the redwood bark. Then I fed the plant in the ground with alfalfa pellets, the others I fed nothing. Continued watering all 3 plants on the same day, by hand with a hose. Plant in ground quickly became chlorotic. The other 2 not a trace, both still dark green leaves. I removed the alfalfa from around the plant in the ground. It's leaves are back to being dark green.

Another experiment was an accidental one with an old butterfly bush. It was way too big, and I needed the space for all the incoming roses this year. So I chopped it way, way back, hacked out some roots. Added roses + bark mulch. No problem. Butterfly bush starts leafing out in multiple locations (hey, it had spread it was so happy!). Added the alfalfa. All new growth DIED.

I am not saying alfalfa should never be fed to roses, but for my growing conditions, it is not advisable. It depends on the conditions in your gardens as to how well it may do for your plants. It is also worth considering the why behind the effects. Perhaps some are seeing reduced performance in roses due to this being fed. On the other hand in the right conditions of soil ph and/or water ph, feeding alfalfa may produce spectacular results. For me that would have been great as I have such easy access to it.

Melissa

Melissa, I think you might consider alfalfa tea as a possibility, rather than alfalfa pellets -- Considering in particular strawberryhill's caution about it crusting up on top.

I remind all that I have never attempted alfalfa as any sort of topdressing, but can only relate that alfalfa tea has been unfailingly successful here. (But, admittedly FAR more trouble than pellets as a topdressing.)

Our water tests at 8.3 - 8.5, and there is as well a saline element to our groundwater, as our hills are all ancient seabed (and peripheral to long-extinct volcanoes).

I'm not likely to advise on such matters to anyone out of my home area, but more likely to suggest soil-testing, where there's any doubt. But I really don't think I'd toss out alfalfa pellets. Not here, anyhow.

Jeri
Coastal Ventura Co.
SoCal

Strawberryhill:" For Roseseek: what does the book mean by, "fix acidic soil with the addition or lime, or SPENT MUSHROOM COMPOST, WHICH HAS A HIGH CHALK CONTENT" - is that what Melissa is talking about? Many thanks for your expertise."

Thank you. I don't find the reference by Melissa to this, but what it generally means is too acidic soil can be adjusted by the use of spent mushroom compost because of its chalk content. It neutralizes acidity, which is what I've always said, and why when reading of people adding that stuff to the alkaline soils here in SoCal, it's made me cringe. It's quite a bit like the reverse of using tons of horse manure to help alleviate some of the extreme alkalinity of our soils. I was amazed how beautifully all of the roses in the old garden grew when I kept a deep mulch of that good stuff around them.

I'm glad you have Alabukensis, Melissa. Isn't that a gorgeous thing?! Wonderful foliage with those very pale yellow single flowers and black hips. If yours traces back from mine, it originated at Pickering in Canada; came through The Huntington and was grown there in The Study Plot. I propagated it for their sales because I knew very little about it and thought it quite beautiful. It's nice to know it's still around locally. Thanks! Kim

For Strawberryhill:

Mushrooms are grown in composted manure. Mushroom growers often mix lime into the compost as a fungicide. The pH can be as high as 8-8.5, but there is no telling what it is unless the package lists a pH or sulfur equivalent to neutralize.

The information from Botanica is not quite right. Nitrogen deficiency shows as an overall pale yellowish green, not just on new growth. Iron deficiency shows paleness between greenish veins, except in extreme cases where the new growth may be solid white or yellow. Iron deficiency shows in new growth as soon as the leaf opens, usually in contrast to the rest of the plant.

Thank you both Roseseek and Michaelg for informing me, and clearing up my confusion.

I appreciate Michaelg' info. regarding alkalizing mushroom compost. You are right about nitrogen deficiency showing overall yellowing, and not just new growth.

I planted Radio Times last month, putting horsemanure (a bit fresh) in the bottom of the hole, then mixed bagged mushroom compost (from HomeDepo) into the soil. It was a disaster. Radio Times turned yellow, with brown spots (fertilizer burnt). I had to replace the soil, using new topsoil mixed with 2 cups of alfafa meal.

Radio Times now is deep green, with 6 buds, and one heavenly fragrant blossom.

Melissa has a valid point. William Shakespeare was the one I planted in a pot with Miracle-Grow potting soil. I thought he might miss out on root growth hormone, so I put 1/4 cup of alfafa meal on top.

In the hot sun the alfafa meal crusted up around the trunk like glue (nice way to burn the roots, even with watering). Mr. Shakespeare drooped, leaves turned a bit yellow. Alfafa is meant to be broken down UNDER the cool, wet soil, or in a tea. Nitrogen moves with water, I learned that from Roseseek.

There's a internet site entitled "Say Naay to Horsemanure: chlorosis ..." When I first used horsemanure, I got the wrong stuff: fresh, with horse hair, chunks of poop. The second time I got the right stuff: darker in color, almost like dirt, moist, and aged at least 6 months.

The first application was OK, leaves were a bit yellow. The second application was a huge success: leaves turned dark green, Mr. Shakespeare grew 2" in 2 days.

My guess is that the fermentation of aged manure under a giant heap is an acidifying process, like making sauerkraut out of alkaline cabbage (raw cabbage juice is used to heal ulcer). Pickled veges. are quite acidic, so is aged horse manure.

For decades horse manure works wonders for roses, with 0.7 Nitrogen, 0.25 Phosphoric Acid (for blooms), and 0.77 potassium (to counteract the salt in the manure).

Strawberryhill, I'd read quite a few years ago where Dr. J. H. Nicholas said "don't bury garbage". I don't remember whether it was in his A Rose Odyssey or Rose Manual and I can't check them as they are packed away. It got me to thinking. When organics are buried underground, they often begin to form methane, which is well known for its damaging properties. They can also be too soggy, becoming water logged causing rotting issues. Nature drops all the good stuff on the surface of the soil where it receives sufficient moisture, oxygen and heat to begin to digest and release its nutrients. I'd also read where the bacteria necessary for this digestion are mostly dormant in soils temperatures lower than about 70 degrees F. Even on a very hot day, the soil several inches below the surface is significantly cooler than that. So, I figured for optimum "digestion" and to prevent fermentation rather than digestion, the best thing for me to do was to be lazy and follow Nature's example.

In forests, all that matter falls to the soil surface where all the bacteria, fungi, insects begin to convert it to humus. Water from dripping dew and rain dissolves the released nutrients and washes them through the feeder roots of the plants, fertilizing them and carrying the Humic Acid into the soil where it assists in conditioning heavier soils. Earthworms, moles, gophers, birds, etc., churn it all up.

I liked thinking that Nature would make use of what I provided as a mulch and fertilizer without my having to work it into the soil or bury it under it. As long as the soil drained acceptably, using all that organic material as a mulch, from the drip zone (where water falls off the canopy of the plant) out, and where the concentration of feeder roots tend to grow, made my life worlds easier and maintaining my roses much faster. Keeping the mulch under the drip zone and out between the plants also helped me to insure I didn't bury the bud unions, which in my conditions, had proven the better way to go. It may not in others gardens, but where I did it and for the results I sought, it was/is correct.

I found in more compacted soil, digging larger holes and breaking up the compaction until the root zone drained acceptably, then maintaining a good mulch would actually break down the clay and correct the drainage issues. This was in native, south west adobe type soils. There were areas in that canyon which were more alluvial and even some spots which were sandier due to grading and the builders dumping sandier soil to fill low spots. Using the heavier soils I'd removed from other areas with ground wood planting mix to slow the drainage in the sandier areas, then maintaining the horse manure mulch on it as I was the heavier soil areas, took care of the drainage issues throughout that garden. It seemed the perfect climate for most roses as they grew quite well with minimum intervention from me other than to attempt to protect them from foraging rodents, keep them watered and maintain the mulch to insulate and amend the soil as it broke down and became part of the soil. I haven't regretted not putting greener "waste" in the holes, always leaving them above ground where Nature puts them. Kim

Does alfalfa have a higher nitrogen content than grass clipings?
I want to mix alfalfa with compost, what would be a good rato of alfalfa to compost?

Thanks

Gary

By dry weight--

Alfalfa is around 3% N.

Grass clippings may vary by species and according to how much N fertilizer has been applied, but may be 3-4% N.

Both are strong composting greens, but don't lose track of the huge difference between wet and dry. Fresh grass is 90% water.

Have you tested the pH of your soil, with and without alfalfa added? Over time? What's the pH of your irrigation water?

What happens in a horse's stomach may not happen in soil.

Just sayin'.