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Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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Posted by
penguu 8 (
My Page) on
Fri, Aug 31, 12 at 17:23
| http://www.zanthan.com/gardens/gardenlog/?p=2424
The above link claims that Ducher is the only white china rose. How can this be? The species roses that combine to become R. chinensis have white!
What am I missing here? |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| yes, this is my understandng too - R.chinensis var spontanea has been variable, through from white to crimson. I guess they mean hybrid chinas as the main 'stud' chinas were either crimson, pink or blush and a sort of straw yellow. I am a bit vague on rose history but I am certain someone more knowledgeable than me will chime in. |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| The color pink is the dominant, "default" color. Most "China" roses are in shades of pink. It is far less common to find one which has none of the pink tones. Do an advanced search for "white", not "any white", but white to cream, China on HMF. There are seven pages of names, most of which are synonyms for others on the list. Of the first four pages, five names were shown as commercially available and actually HAD nurseries listed. Only ONE of the five was actually white with NO pink and that was Ducher. Run the advanced search and take a look. Pink is a strong color to bleach out through breeding. Once you've raised enough seedlings, you will be convinced! Kim |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| campanula and roseseek, thank you very much! Roseseek, do you have any info on rose hybridization inside China before the time of modern roses? I'm a bit interested in it...but I don't know where to look (eveywhere I look, I get very very vague timelines about spontanea, rich mandarin's garden, etc. I was hoping I could learn at least a handful of cultivar names.) |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| Ah well, you did add quotes around 'China' - which is why I am always somewhat confused since I think a white chinensis was only recently discovered by a Japanese guy (name escapes me) leading to my, quite possibly erroneous belief that a species china did exist in a true white form as well as the main pink tones. But then, as I have said, the taxonomy and nomenclature of rose classes, especially 'chinas' gets awfully muddled in my puzzled brain. |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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Ah yes, I am being a bit slow - I think the 'china' classification largely stems from the so-called stud chinas, none of which were white but were the ancestors of roses such as Ducher - which is actually a fairly complex hybrid, is it not, like most 'china' roses. Certainly bred a good few years after 1800.
Also, plenty of white china species such as sericea omiensis, bracteata, banksia normalis and of course, R.gigantea which varied from a creamy, lemony colour.
I think, pre 1799, it all gets a bit vague and muddied - the mysterious East and all that, with much contention regarding names, dates, places. Good Luck, Penguu, I am sure the info is out there somewhere, just not in my head.
You might try Jack Harkness - he has written with great authority on the history of the rose. |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| Camp, I've never run across anything documented about specific crosses, etc., in "ancient China", so I can't help there. I think most of us simply have access to the same "history and legends". Anything predating Britain's entry into the Opium Wars and the side trade of plant expeditions seems only referred to as what you'd mentioned. From Chinese friends who are now American residents, but who travel back and forth fairly regularly, that seems pretty much how it really is. Some roses and other plants are simply considered "ancient" with no real knowledge of their origins. Kim |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| campanula: it looks like the white rose rediscovered by the japanese botanist is spontanea! roseseek: I'm asking my friends who know chinese history. There are claims online that the viridiflora was forbidden outside the forbidden city. This sounds like silliness to me. There are a handful of mentions of rose cultivars in old chinese novels and plays, but I'm waiting on more info on this. Chinese sellers are selling roses under these poetic, historical names, but I would like to find out if they're recent rebrands or if they are a legacy that survived through the times. Also, does anyone know what these two roses are? Whether they have western names? http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesname/msg0817164525239.htm
l |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| You might find this info from Quarryhill Botanical Garden interesting: http://www.quarryhillbg.org/page14.html Also, Dr. Wang Guoliang is currently writing a book on the roses of China. I'd love to be able to read it, when it is released -- but unf., it will not at this time be printed in English. If, however, any of you read Chinese . . . I think it's going to be a very good book. Jeri |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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Annoyingly, I cannot seem to get a picture on screen (but I am a bit dim with this PC stuff).
It is all infuriatingly vague though, isn't it. Good luck with your research, Penguu - and post any results on here - burning with curiosity!
Cheers for the Quarryhill stuff, Jeri - impressively lucid (for me). |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| Quarryhill is a treasure. Honestly, I suspect that Dr. Wang Guoliang's book will have a LOT of interesting material to pore over -- if only those of us here in the West were able to read it.
:-( |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| I read chinese. When it comes out, I'll paraphrase! I promise 8D No one recognizes the 2 roses I linked? |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| Can you get a photo up on this post, Penguu, as the posted link just keeps sending me to a copy of this forum thread,(not that I am any good at identifying roses from photos)....but I am curious. Are they wild roses? Or hybrids? |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| Oh now, just because 'someone' in a blog says something is so, doesn't make it so. You know the old saying, well maybe not, it's from 12 step groups: just because someone calls you a chair, doesn't make you a chair. Sorry but I don't recognize either of the roses you posted. Pink roses in particular could be almost anything. Vegetative characteristics would be helpful in narrowing it down. |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| Rose 1 -- Take a look at 'Summer Fashion.' Rose 2 -- I don't know, but like Reg, I would like to see the foliage, and if possible, the plant. Are these roses growing in China??? Jeri |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| oh well, it (2) could be a number of roses from Hermosa (that globular shape) to Bengale centfeuilles or Bengale d'automne. I did warn you that I was rubbish at the ID game so I would take my guesses with a large pinch of salt. |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| yes, both of these roses are growing in china. The rose growers there don't like labeling their stuff. So I find it really frustrating to look at. It is especially hard to tease out which ones are the modern imports, which ones are the modern chinese cultivars, and which ones are the old chinese roses. I'm sorry I don't have more pictures of the second rose. I can only find the vendor picture, which is why I was a bit suspicious of its claims. Thanks to everyone for helping out! I'll look into the bengales. Bengales make it more possible that it might have been growing in china for a long time... |
RE: Why do they say Ducher is the only white china rose?
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| The first rose is DEFINITELY modern. The second could be either. It is common to obtain seedlings, even from crossing two modern roses, which resemble that flower. It doesn't even require one be an Austin or that type to get that flower shape. You would be surprised how many modern seedlings come out resembling OGR types. That's what's behind them. It's natural for it to pop out from time to time. Kim |
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