Thanks for your wonderful post. You must have been reading my mind. I have asked about 'leaf stripping' and have gotten mixed answers. As you can see, I am in a zone (northern cal) where we hardly ever get to 32 degrees.

OK, so now what I understand about 'winter' pruning for my area is, in Jan or Feb, I should prune LIGHTLY but leave the leaves. Is this correct?

Thanks again,

andrea

Great post Michael. I would suggest one change to item #1. It isn't only once bloomers that change leaf color & drop their leaves in the fall. Repeat bloomers that are cane hardy to northern zones (usually the ones listed as z3 hardy), such as John Davis and many of the rugosas will also change color & drop leaves in the fall. There are some rugosas that have as dramatic a color change as maple trees.

I think the general principle should be [edit to add: for repeat-blooming bush and shrub roses], prune AFTER the time of worst growing conditions and BEFORE the time of best conditions. So where winter affects roses (freeze of Many in CA prune in November so plants grow out in the rainy season, but that wouldn't do if you expect freezes in January.

Andrea, I know you have a lot of young plants. These may not need pruning in their first year.

This post was edited by michaelg on Sun, Sep 8, 13 at 12:48

Michael,

One bed (6 HTs) is about 18 months old. The second bed (7 HTs) is only 3 months old. I also have 6 potted roses that are less than a month - 3 miniatures, 2 shrubs, and one floribunda.

andrea

Andrea--Established HTs need to be cut back once or twice a year to keep them from growing out of reach and maybe breaking over, so the first bed is probably due. I gather that most Californians prune HTs to around 3'. I prune them to around 2'.

Michael.....

Great post. Thank you.

Smiles,
Lyn

Thanks again, Michael.....

andrea

Nice, straightforward and easy to understand. Thanks Michael.
Susan

Thank you, Michael. I have been thinking about this issue all day long, working in my garden. For some reason, I was possessed to order 5 bands from Rogue Valley that will be shipping on Monday, 9/9. I have been wondering what to do with them, talking it over with a friend who grow roses in my area. My habit has always been to plant bands straight into the ground. I have always been successful doing this, even with tiny bands. However, I haven't planted bands so late in the season. In terms of my climate, my roses usually still have a few blooms at Thanksgiving, and it tends not to get really cold here until after Christmas. I think my baby plants should be okay since they will have almost three months in the ground. I think I would be more nervous about overwintering them in my cold, detached garage (after potting them up into 1 gallon containers). I have overwintered older roses in large pots with success just by watering at least monthly and simply leaving them in the garage. I don't feel so sure about my baby plants. Two of the bands I have ordered are polyanthas, which I plan to permanently grow in large pots. I am considering potting up those two and then sinking the pots into the ground for the winter. I'm interested in your opinion about my plan, if you have time to write. Thank you! Shelley

Shelley--there are many here whose advice would be as good as mine or better. I would plant them in the garden because I do not trust myself to watch over small pots through the winter. They freeze easier and dehydrate easier than big pots. With one batch of late-summer bands, I planted outside but defoliated and buried them just before temperatures around 10 degrees arrived, and didn't uncover until pruning time. This worked well in that case, but it might have led to problems with canker disease had weather patterns been different. With another batch of September 1-gallons, I just planted them outside. They all survived, but were set back compared to those I received the following April. So like you, I'm wondering why I got myself in that situation.

For the roses that will be potted, I would pot up to 1-gallon and sink the pots as you intend. Sinking a full-size pot would be a huge chore. After the roses are established in their big pots next year, you can probably winter them successfully by just pushing them against the south foundation and watering occasionally, Or pile leaves around the pots.

This post was edited by michaelg on Sun, Sep 8, 13 at 15:03

Shelley, if these are going to be tiny band plants and you want to pot them I wouldn't pot them into anything bigger than a one gallon pot to start with. You can winter over the one gallons in a garage or shed on a shelf or if you don't have an unheated place like that bury the pots completely in the ground until spring. They're small enough to do that with easily.

If you go with a shed or garage remember to water them a little bit each month through the winter until you get them back outside in the spring. They need some moisture all winter or they'll dry out and die. I like to put snow on mime when I have it.

If you sink them in the ground make sure you put some kind of markers into the ground around the pots so you can easily find them in the spring and dig them out without damaging the plants. Been there, done that, lol! The first time I sank some of my seedlings I didn't mark them and when I went to dig them out in spring I couldn't remember exactly where and ended up sinking my shovel right into one of the pots slicing off the top of the seedling, boo hoo!

Ah, cheers for the clarity, Michael. I find there is a bit of a disconnect between what I know I ought to do, what I think I ought to do and what I actually do, do.....that things often get terminally confused in my brain - but I often find your posts to be a haven of sanity and good advice.

Michael, thank you for the advice on getting my september bands safely through the winter. I have a plan, which is to plant 3 of the 5 immediately into the ground. Holes are dug, ammended and ready. For the two I plan to put into pots, I will plant them into 1 gallon containers and sink them into the ground when it begins to get colder. All 5 roses are going into protected locations: southern exposure in front of a solid fence. During the winter, when I see that temps dip down below 5-10 degrees, I will go outside and provide them w temporary protection, such as a blanket of dry leaves. I will remove that when temps rise so as not to promote rot. I believe my roses will be just fine.

I think my plan is pretty good, though I wonder how I will feel about it when I have to go out into the freezing cold. I guess we will see.

Seil, I will remember to label my sunken pots so there are no mix-ups come spring. I can imagine the horror of accidentally harming those baby plants during spring clean-up.

Camp, I know what you mean about having all intentions of doing the right thing for your plants over the winter. It seems easy enough right now but we will see how I do when it is the dead of winter!

Thanks again Michael for an informative, timely thread. I sure value the knowledge I gain from the rose forums. Shelley

Thanks all for the kind words, but I was looking forward to a knockdown argument. You Minnesota transplants know in your heart of hearts that it is indecent for Arizona roses to be blooming in January. They need to be made to stop ;)

Shelley - I have some seedlings that are in tiny pots. I plan on putting the cups all in a very large pot filled with dirt and placing the large pot in the garage (attached). I am also planning on wrapping the pot loosely with light blankets. That might be an easier way???
Carol

Michael,

Those of us in California don't agree with you!!!! If you would move out this way, your roses could be bloomimg in January also!!!

Hugs from all of us for the wonderful info,

andrea

No real experience to speak of except for my own experience of overwintering two potted roses in my unheated garage last winter. I placed both pots where they received some sun, thinking the sun would keep the roses stay warmer. This might have had contributed to the super early growth I saw on them, which were extremely tender and did not survive once I moved the pots out after our "official" last frost date. Luckily, both plants survived and are thriving, but they appeared to be seriously bruised. I learned later from this forum that I should have placed the pots where they don't get. Otherwise, there is a risk that the roses might break dormancy too early (or that is what I understand what the rational is).

Did not think that no light source was mentioned in the postings above, but maybe I was not reading carefully enough. Do not make the same mistake as I did.

farmerduck, probably the heat from the sun did more harm than the light. You want garaged roses to start cold and dormant and stay that way as long as possible in temperatures ideally between 20 and 40-something. When those hopeless pale shoots start growing out, it's a big waste of stored energy.

It depends on what is going on outside when the rose starts growing. Last frost date is a meaningless abstraction for roses. And long before it stays above a hard frost at night, it is well above freezing during the day. So the question becomes more about how much work you are willing to put into moving roses around than whether or not they start growing too soon.

BTW, mine usually start going outside in March. At this point, I don't bother unless they can stay outside for a couple of days.

Question, for pots sunk into the ground for winter protection against the cold, is there sufficient rainfall to prevent from from drying out until spring, or will they be kept watered as needed? I ask because I only have my climate/conditions to compare this to. Here, planted pots dry out quickly and never take any moisture from the soil. We don't really have "rains" the past two years and even when we did, the foliage canopy prevented the pots from receiving much water. They always had to be hand watered even after heavy "showers". My concern would be of a bone dry potted gallon soil ball sitting in damp soil with a dried out plant in it. At least, that's what I would expect if I did something like that here without frequently checking its moisture level. Kim

There are a couple of different (for you) factors going on.

Frozen rootballs technically contain no water, only ice. Any plant adapted to grow in colder conditions has to be able to take that into account.

For the rest of it, we average about 4 inches of precipitation a month, fairly evenly spread out. Given that evaporation slows down when it gets cooler, and the transpiration of trees slows down after they lose their leaves, most of that water just stays in the soil. That's why the biggest problem with burying roses is rot.

Carol, I like the idea of the little roses all huddled together in a garage for warmth, wrapped in a blanket. I want to toast them marshmallows. I'm being silly, of course. Honestly, I'm still unsure about what I'm going to do but I have a strong feeling that the roses will come through the winter okay outside. I'm only concerned about the two I will be putting into pots and sinking into the ground. But in a protected location outside, I think they will be okay. In the future I think I won't take this risk again, unless my roses come thru winter with flying colors. We will see.

Farmer duck (I like that name), thanks for bringing up the point about keeping the dormant, garaged plants out of the sun. That's an important point.

Kim, I don't think moisture will be a problem for the pots outdoors. We get a pretty good amount of rain in the fall, some in winter (during mild winters, often quite a bit) and some snow. In the spring when removing leaves from the perimeter of the yard, everything beneath is moist and possibly rotty. I don't think I will worry about the moisture level in the outdoor pots.

Thanks all for your help. :)

Michael,

You requested photos of some of my 'yukky' leaves. I hope these are clear enough.

andrea

Andrea,

Leaves of the semi-evergreen, repeating roses are not immortal and may last only around 12 or 18 months before the rose decides to kill them off and replace them. So you will normally have some old leaves dying of old age, especially around the middle or bottom of the plant. That's what these look like to me. I can't see anything that looks like blackspot disease.

Large dead brown areas may be the result of cercospora infection that occurred a couple of months ago.

If you have any leaves with distinct spots, give us another picture with, hopefully, a little better illumination.

What do others think?

I will try.

Thanks,

andrea

I haven't had time to find other leaves with more prominant spots, but I will look.

Meanwhile, several other rosers have said the same as you, that they just look like old tired leaves. Does BS strike all parts of the bush, such as the top or exterior of the bush. As I just posted on another spot, The leaves that I see that are black, brown, and yellow are from the midle interior or bottom of the bush. I will look more closely.

Thanks again,

andrea

On the subject of water in winter, I do have a question. How much rainfall do roses expect in winter? I think I've killed a couple before from not watering, and I'm trying to remember to do that this winter, at least in the very dry parts of my gardens.

We don't get consistent moisture in winter. Sometimes a lot, sometimes very little.

Meredith, I don't know exactly how much, but evaporation and transpiration are very slow during winter in zone 7 and colder. I have never worried about it except for plants in pots.

Thank you, michael! Maybe I'll just make sure to put some leaves as mulch in those dry areas and them pull them back as the weather warms. I tend to be lazy in the fall and put the leaves mostly under where they fall ;)

Meredith, I would think how much supplemental water a garden would need in winter would depend upon how warm and wet the winter is. I can understand where one with frozen soil and regular rainfall would need little. The last two here have had heat spikes into the high eighties with less than half the normal rainfall, resulting in virtually no ground water. If I don't water at least weekly through "winter", I have dried out, dead plants. Kim

I wonder which once flowering rose can bloom where weather doesn't have winter? I import many rose, and generally avoid all the once bloomers.