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New, need help

Posted by HerdingCats SoCal/LA area (My Page) on
Mon, Sep 24, 12 at 23:29

Hi, everyone!

This is my very first post, so picture me waving frantically at all of you! I've lurked here for years, but finally have decided I actually don't know what I'm doing and need help.

I inherited my childhood home about 18 months ago; my Dad loved roses, but didn't know how to take care of them, or wasn't able to. I planted several roses for him over the years, and a few of them are very poorly performing (never were much good).

I also have some very healthy rose bushes that I've recently put in (in the first year I was here). On the front fence (at the sidewalk, facing west),I have 1 climbing Eden and one Eden shrub; both are very happy and healthy. I also have another Eden that I am going to put on the fence, where it's not got a thing growing.

The other roses I have:
Healthy: 2 JPII, Queen Eliz (huge!!), Silver Girl.
Not as healthy as they should be: Double Delight, Betty White, Mr. Lincoln, Crown Princess Margarete, Shropshire Lad, French Perfume.
Shovel Prune List: Peace, Brass Band, Midas Touch, and an unnamed, very old, never bloomed all year rose, and three other one cane wonders.

I also have numerous minis in pots scattered around.

I have in pots waiting for me to plant:
3 Ebb Tides, 1 Moondance, 1 Portlandia Cl., 1 Ginger Syllabub cl, Zephirine Druhin, St. Cecilia, Fragrant Plum, 1 Soft Whisper. The climbers are own root, as is St. Cecilia and Frag. Plum.

My soil is clay, and very depleted. There has been nothing growing in areas that should be able to sustain growth (eg enough sun and water), and I'm looking to amend the soil before planting the potted plants.

I have been doing a ton of site clearing, weed removal, and planning. But I'm lost as to how to amend the soil, especially on/around the roses that are established that I'm keeping.

I have ordered (2) 146 oz of Neptune's Harvest, as recommended by my local nursery. But past that, I don't quite know what to do. I am willing to do as much "hard labor" as needed, because this house is a "cottage" and needs the yards to reflect the quaint and fairytale-ish-ness (???) of the house.

So...what are the secrets? Hoov - I've been drooling over your gardens for ages...if I could do one quarter of what you have, it would be wonderful.

So anyone, everyone...help? How do I make these beds rose-friendly?

Thanks sooooo much for all your help.

Best-
Herding Cats
(and yes, I "herd" cats...I've got 10 rescues, and foster kittens all the time. LOL...and two dogs and two horses, too; you should see me at vaccine time...)


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: New, need help

Good soil can be made by continuing to layer on the compost and mulch. Keep it moist and the little worms will work it in. Then the roses seem to rejuvenate. Some older roses will never look like young roses ever again. You will just have to decide if you can live with that or if it's time to replant.

I decided that in the front I would buy a finished looking mulch and in the back it's whatever I can get for free. Huntington Beach Equestrian Center has free horse manure and there may be areas nearer to you where you can go. I put a thin layer of manure down and then a good layer of shredded leaves or bark. Some people dig holes and drop in raw vegetable trimmings. My roses eat watermelon rinds, the neighbors grass, smashed up pine cones and whatever I can get. Eventually it all breaks down into good soil.

If you want to buy finished mulch, you can have it delivered and then just spread it over the roses a few times a year. In Los Angeles, you just want to make sure that the roses get enough water, especially in summer.


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RE: New, need help

Get a soil test or at minimum check the pH and adjust it to 6-6.5.. Most soils in California are on the alkaline side, although roses grafted on Dr. Huey stock (the typical garden center roses) can handle a slightly alkaline pH.

Do not dig or work or tread on clay soil when it is wet. When the soil is workable, dig in 3" of decayed organic matter to a depth of 10-12" over the whole planting area. Maintain a mulch of bark or wood chips 2-3" deep on the soil surface at all times. Properly managed clay soil is fine for growing roses, and with normal fertilizing there is no need to worry about nutrient depletion. I don't recommend Neptune's Harvest as a primary fertilizer, but go ahead and use it up. A soil test might show that the only thing needed is nitrogen/


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RE: New, need help

You are getting some very good advice from those who have posted.

I am also in SoCal with somewhat alkaline clay soil and tap water. A couple of spoonfuls of Epsom Salts per plant in early spring and fall helps make soil pH less alkaline and provides magnesium needed for chlorophyl production. (Many books on rose growing mention "liming," but that is only for acid soil.)

The composted mulch that was mentioned works well to break up the soil and encourages proliferation of beneficial microorganisms that help rose roots absorb nutrients. I put down a bit of alfalfa and kelp meal too.

You have horses, but I wouldn't put fresh manure on the rose beds, only composted manure.

The Neptune's Harvest you got is good, and I find that anything with seaweed/kelp helps to beef up the new foliage.

Deep watering at least twice a week is essential, and with clay soil you'll want to dig down with a skinny trowel to investigate how far the water has actually penetrated. Also, roses do best planted in soil with decent drainage so they won't stand in pools of water.


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RE: New, need help

I second getting a soil test with pH being the main thing you pay attention to & Fall is a good time to adjust pH because if you add a pH adjusting substance now it will take to Spring before it starts to have good effect. Second horse manure is great stuff for roses, but don't use fresh on them as Petaloid said. But you could add fresh to some new beds that you dig now, let sit until your spring planting, & it will be just right.


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RE: New, need help

Oh, wow, thanks, you guys!

I don't have any manure composted, although it's never too soon to start - I board my horses at a barn, and they're more than willing to give as much as one wants. I have been meaning to get a compost going, so I will figure that out.

The soil does test a tad on the alkaline side (a neighbor does a lot of citrus gardening, so I jumped on her test). I will be amending it towards acid in the next week or so.

Watering is fine. I'm on auto, it's set for the days we're allowed to water, and I water at night - and interestingly, no rust or mildew or fungus has come. I thought it would, but this summer has been brutal, so maybe that's helped keep things at bay.

Yes, I think that some of the roses which are not doing well are that way because they're old. Some of the base canes are two inches thick, and barked up like trees. I may put a few of those onto the shovel prune list, because between age and poor performance (not their fault, just neglect), I'm disappointed; and would LOVE to have my garden be happy and healthy and floriferous. And they're not.

Overhaul, anyone? LOL.

Petaloid, you mentioned alfalfa and kelp meals. Can I make that from the alfalfa pellets from my barn, or where would one get those? I didn't find it online at two of the big box stores, so was wondering where one could get that.

I also have some (very slight) yellowing of leaves. I had thought it was overwatering, but am now wondering if it is something else. How does one correct that if it's not overwatering?

Michael, you said to work in decayed organic matter. Would that be compost, and can I get some good aged compost at the nursery? I don't walk on it while wet...and surprisingly, I do have good drainage.

Mulching...I can get some of that, and I have tons of trees (north side of property line) which are starting to give leaves. I can have the gardeners put that down as mulch.

I am also considering putting in drip irrigation in two areas in the back. The front and sides get plenty of water, but I've got two great spots that get...nothing. LOL.

Oh, I'm so excited. The heat of summer has passed (mostly), and it's time to get back into the garden...get this place looking like it should, with happy, healthy plants. And now, I've got some seriously experienced people helping me.

It doesn't get better than that. Thanks, you guys. Big thanks.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Hello, Herding Cats, and welcome to the rose forum. Good for you for fostering cats; they're lucky to have someone like you who's willing to take the time and give them the love they need.

I use alfalfa meal as fertilizer and think it's really great. I buy it at the feed store here in big bags. Just make sure it's the kind that has no salt or other additives. I sprinkle about a cup or two around the roses and water it in. Sometimes after a few waterings it needs to be worked into the soil so it doesn't clump. Alfalfa pellets are fine too but I'm not sure whether the ones used for feed are okay to use; they may have added salt.

If you want a cottage garden you might want to take a look at the antique rose forum (if you haven't already), because the old roses have more of a romantic, soft look that's perfect for that kind of scheme. I'm about 20 miles inland in San Diego County and the tea roses (not hybrid tea) and small Bourbons do especially well for me. The teas can grow into very large bushes with hundreds of flowers on them. You might want to look at on-line nurseries like Vintage Garden, Rogue Valley Roses and Antique Rose Emporium to see whether you like the look of the older roses.

I've found that mulching is VERY important in our hot, dry climate. It not only keeps the roots moist but will decompose and enrich the soil. I use the leaves from my trees and it seems that you have a good supply of those too.

To get the look you want as quickly as possible, it might be a good idea to take out the old, thick-caned roses and start over with some new varieties. The antique roses fortunately can last for a much longer time than the modern varieties and will get bigger and more beautiful with every year.

Ingrid


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RE: New, need help

Ingrid, yes, I've been lurking the Antique forum...I have several Austins which are not doing well, and have been looking for possible answers (the answer is they don't get enough sun. LOL...and they will be moved; Shropshire Lad and Crown Pr. Margarita).

I must confess that I'm not too fond of the look of the older roses; if I had a way to grow them as shrubs/hedges, I would do so. But the two spots where that would be feasible don't get enough sun.

I think you may be right, in taking out the older, heavy-barked cane bushes. Although now that I've taken the tree above them waaaaaaaaaaay back, they're starting to show signs of new growth, and Mr Lincoln, for the first time ever, has TWO buds on it at the same time. LOL.

I will be mulching...I think what I'm going to do is get some topsoil and some compost in bags from the box store, and turn the soil over in the new beds, incorporating the new soil with the old soil, and put some Neptune's Harvest down as well as some RoseTone. And I think I've got some Epsom salts around here, so I'll add some of that for the magnesium and iron-freeing properties.

I will look at my horses' feed bags for added items in their alf pellets. I know it's pretty pure, but will look and see exactly what is there. I have read about making alfalfa tea, but if the pellets would work as well, I'd rather go that route. Any hints?

As for your very kind comment about my kitties and fosters, yes, they need a home and love. But what they give back is tons and tons of joy...so I'm the one who benefits. Both of my dogs also adore kittens and full grown cats, so we're just one big happy critter family. I am the one who benefits in the end, though...I get far more back than I give. And I LOVE it. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

PJPII has been my very best white rose so far. I am near Disneyland. Eden has been a great rose for a neighbor down the street. Zephrine was a spring bloomer for me. I think it wasn't cold enough to get that rose to repeat. However it is thornless so you can plant it where you dont want to worry about thorns. My Queen Eliz. has been so so but the white sport of Queen E. has been great. I think I got a bad copy of Queen E.
Tiffany is a great rose here and also a soft yellow rose called Elina. If you like red and white you might like Scentimental. Other good roses for the LA area that I have grown include Memorial Day, Medallion, Olympiad, Honor, Angel Face, Apricot Nectar, French Lace, Lemon Spice, Chrysler Imperial, La France, Pink Parfait, Pristine, Bewitched, Jardins Bagatelle, Maria Callas, Our Lady of Guadalupe and Tournament of Roses. I left out roses that were old fashioned looking.

I started with clay soil. It's just work any way you look at it. Maybe you can rent a machine to dig the organic stuff in on the first go around to make things easier. Doing the work as the summer heat passes away really helps. Raised beds are another easy way to go. You fix the clay a little and then pile the new good stuff on top. The roses have the best of both worlds then with their tender feeder roots in the delicious upper layers and the big stabilizing roots anchored in the clay. One of my best performing beds is this way.


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RE: New, need help

Either composted manure or veggie compost is fine for adding organic matter. With manure you need less by volume. Horse feed should be pure alfalfa, but check the label. Alfalfa is a balanced, complete fertilizer which also contains a growth stimulant.

With the old, barky roses that aren't producing, I would prune fairly severely, to 2-3', and maybe saw off some of the oldest-looking canes, to see if you get new canes from the base this winter or spring. If not, you can discard these roses.


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RE: New, need help

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 25, 12 at 18:45

Can't really add anything to what you've gotten so far. Besides my conditions are very different from yours so any advice I have wouldn't do for your area. But I did want to say hello and welcome you to the group! I hope all your hard work pays off and you have a beautiful garden to show us come spring!


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RE: New, need help

Michael, I do have a saw, and have no hesitation to whack them back. Something needs to give, and this might do it. I'll give it a try, and see how things go this fall/winter. If it doesn't do what I'd like, well then, shovel pruning is just fine.

I will be up at the barn tomorrow, so I will check the feed. My horses don't eat a lot of alfalfa (makes them too "hot" for showing), but they do love it, so get some pellets on a regular basis. I'll make sure that they're simply alfalfa (I think they are), and if so, I'll bring some home for my roses.

Kitty, thanks for that wonderful list. I LOVE my PJPIIs...both are the best producers in my garden now, and one bush has no less than 18 buds on it. The instant the weather started cooling off at night, it just came back like gangbusters. And the scent...oh, just to die for! I was considering getting some Angel Face, so it's good to see her on your list. I'm in the SFV, and our microclimate can get horribly hot, so I need something that will handle the heat.

I've got tons of lavender, and will be putting in callas and iris in one very shady area (afternoon sun only, and only a few hours at that). I've got red bougainvilla on the north side of the house - well established, and happy there. I wanted to get a rose climbing up the chimney on the south side, similar in color, to "balance" or "bracket" the house, and that's where I thought I'd put the Zeffy.

I've also got a long, 4 foot wide space against the north fence in my back yard, and the space is crying for some climbers, which is where I'm thinking of putting in the other Austins - Shrop. Lad, Margarita, Ginger Syllabub (I think Ginger is an Austin...). I am also going to line the grass with lavender (Goodwin Creek, Chelsea Pink, Hidcote, maybe munstead), so that I have a short "hedge" separating the lawn from the back space.

I have a wee garden at the back door, which will have at least one climber there, and along my drive, there's a 2 foot space that is probably 30 foot long, where I'll have hollyhocks and delphs and likely stock and phlox there, as well as a rose at the corner. I have numerous sweet peas that will go in, too, all over. and I'm getting some salvia, as well.

My veggie garden is in the back. LOL. That's getting planted for winter harvest - peas, lettuce, beans.

As for raised beds, I'm seriously considering the long 4 foot wide stretch in the back as a "semi" raised bed...it already has bricks lining it (between the grass and the space), so it would be an easy thing to line the back with some boards, and divide the space up, and build some raised beds. I think that you're right - the combo between the "good stuff" on top and the clay may be a good thing. Honestly, nothing grows there right now, not even weeds; it's that compacted and depleted.

I will hand shovel the area...I've got a mattox and a shovel, as well as an axe, should the need arise...and I've had a long rest this summer recovering from cancer surgery in early May. I've got "spring fever" in fall, and I blame it on my surgeon. LOL. He has cleared me to return to full activity (riding my horses, training my Newfoundland dog, gardening/rehabbing the house), so it's game on. LOL.

I've got some places to get to tomorrow, so will make sure I stop at one of the local nurseries and get some compost and topsoil, and check out the feed for content, and maybe get some Rose Tone and some root stimulator. That way, I can grab a shovel and pick and start getting to work...I cleared a 2x2 patch of calla lilies that had been there for 20 years, and the lilies will now be transplanted into the side of the walk in the back yard. They'll love their new home...maybe they'll even give me a bloom or two, now that they're thinned out and have better soil and water supplies.

And YES! I hope I can get the look I'm working for, and will absolutely get photos of it come finishing time and/or spring, whichever comes first. Here in this area, we don't actually get a winter, so it may come around faster than I anticipate.

Thanks sooo much for the welcome...I appreciate you all taking the time for the new kid. It matters, and I thank you.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Herding Cats, hi! Roses are quite an addiction, aren't they?
I'm betting that alfalfa is pure. They sell it at the store I go to, for roses, but it's the same thing you get at feed stores for rabbits and other livestock. As far as I know, it isn't available anywhere but feed stores and a specialty store that has a lot of organic fertilizers. You can either make a tea from it, or work it into the soil. My dogs love it, btw and will dig it out. You can also use alfalfa hay as a mulch.


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RE: New, need help

Rabbit food is alfalfa with salt added, could be harmful to plants..


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RE: New, need help

I'll definitely double check, Michael...since I'm going to the nursery anyway, if needed, I'll grab some alfalfa there.

I had another thought, though. When I get alfalfa hay for my horses, it's just alfalfa baled up. I wonder if a flake or two of that (a flake is part of the hay bale) spread out like mulch wouldn't be good? It's an idea, at least, and would be less expensive than bags and bags of mulch...a hay bale goes about $20 for +/- 80 pounds, so it might be something I could mulch with, for less expense; and the stuff is "all natural"...grown, dried, and baled up in the field, and brought in for horse feed. Hm....I wonder if that's not a good idea. Can anyone tell me?

And can you give too much alfalfa to roses?

Yes, eahmel, this garden thing is addictive. LOL. I've always loved roses, and in the place before this, I had one single rose which was delightful and strong and wonderful...
and I did nothing for it. LOL. Now that I've got space, I have all sorts of urges to cover things with roses, and since this house lends itself incredibly well to a "cottage garden", that's what I'm doing, front, side and back.

And the cornerstone of a quaint cottage garden is tons of roses. How cool is that? LOL.

I've got a hundred things to do today (banking, groomers for the dogs, the barn, other errands), but I'll be going to the nursery for some things...I'll be back around later this afternoon...

I really appreciate all the help. More ideas, more hints, anything you guys can think of, I'm game for.

Thanks so very much, and I hope everyone has a spectacular day!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

"Too much alfalfa"-- people have reported that a thick layer of meal or pellets will heat up as it rots quickly, but I recall no reports of damage. However, there's no sense in applying more nutrients than the plant can use. Probably 4 cups (not all at once) is enough fertilizer for an 8-month growing season.

No harm in trying alfalfa hay as a combo mulch and slow-acting fertilizer. It may break down faster than other mulches because of the high nitrogen content. I don't know whether it contains weed seeds.


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RE: New, need help

Hi, Michael!

Thanks for the info re: alfalfa "heating" things up. I will be more aware of that.

As for the bales bearing weeds, yes, possibly. And they also occasionally bear mice or snake carcasses...the hay balers just bale. LOL.

I will look into the alfalfa pellets. I went up to the barn, but we'd already put next month's feeds into bins, and discarded the bags they came in. So I'll make a stop at the feed store and double check there. If so, I'll bring some home, and maybe make some alfalfa tea...I don't want to heat things too much with new roses and their roots.

I did get by the nursery, and got some garden soil with compost, and some compost. I also got some Rose Tone and Espoma's bone meal additive. I will put all that into the ground as I shovel it loose, and hopefully, that will make it rose friendly. Over time, mulch will provide other nutrients, so it will be balanced hopefully by spring.

I am probably going to stsrt the back tomorrow...that's the area which needs the most work (depleted and compacted), so before I even build beds, I am going to loosen the top 12 inches or so...it should be fun...hard work, yes, but fun nonetheless.

And once that's underway, I'll start working the side and front areas. Those don't need quite so much work, but still, will need quite a bit. But I want to be ready...I want to get the potted roses into the ground as soon as practical, and let them get going on growing.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Michael, these alfalfa pellets are recommended by the Houston Rose Society. The store told me they were the same ones used for rabbit food.

HC - you can put too much alfalfa on roses. Someone in the Houston Rose Society talked to a newcomer on the phone about using alfalfa, and when his roses died he called back. Turns out, he put a 2-3" layer of alfalfa on them, which is way too much!


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RE: New, need help

I have **finally** figured out what I want to do with one spot...my father was a HUGE Lakers fan, and their colors are purple and gold. Since I have 3 Ebb Tides, what I'm going to do is get my hands on two Julia Childs, and plant those in a semi circle with the Julias in the middle, the Ebb Tides spaced around them, and then line everything out with some (yellow/gold) alyssum and purple lobelia. I think that would hide the ugly legs of Ebb Tide, and the yellows in the middle would be a gorgeous foil for the purples.

Does this sound doable?? I hope so...I'd love to do this in honor of my father...I miss him so much.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Thu, Sep 27, 12 at 14:50

Sound like a lovely combo and tribute! Make sure you post some pictures when it's done.


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RE: New, need help

There are some OGR's that do well in shadier areas. Valentine and Louis Philippe are two that I have in partial sun, or they were until I had a large tree cut down recently. Valentine is always covered in clusters of large red blooms, and it doesn't get very large.


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RE: New, need help

You are going to love your purple and gold color combo. It's a favorite of mine, and I have it in various spots all around my front yard flower beds. We have a wide sidewalk running from our porch steps straight down a gentle slope to the main sidewalk. On either side run flower beds. At the top are two large Ebb Tides, side by side across from each other. A little way down the slope are two huge Julias, and just below them are two Bernstein-Rose bushes which look like a smaller version of Julia. This group really works. Farther out in beds that abut the sidewalk bed are other purples: a Twilight Zone on one side of the sidewalk and an Ascot on the other side. You might try Twilight Zone, an offspring of Ebb Tide, if you want more dark purple. It has a nicer growth habit than Ebb Tide (it's a grandiflora). I love purple and yellow companion plants for these gold and purple roses. Favorites are purple La Bella snapdragons which start blooming in April-May and are still blooming their heads off right now. They act as short lived perennials in this area. I love purple and yellow African Daisies (osteospernum), as well as Indian Summer Rudbeckia and all kinds of purple coneflowers. Jupiter's Beard (valerian) is great, too. If you live in an area with hot, sunny summers this combo will not fade into nothingness in the bright sun. Have fun with your new color schemes. Diane


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RE: New, need help

Nanadoll and seil, thanks for the vote of confidence!

I went out today to dig out Papa's Garden bed...can't even get the shovel down 4 inches. LOL. So I scraped all the top off (just dry crumbly dirt), set it aside, and took the mattox to it. Got a bit further with that...but now I'm tired. LOL.

I put in some compost (3 cubic feet), and two topsoils (1.5 c.f). I spread them around, and dug it in just a tad. I'll let the water work on things for a few days, and then go and turn it again, and perhaps putting down some Rose Tone and bone meal while I'm at it; and if I can get my hands on some alfalfa, I'll put that in, too.

But I have to tell you...I have my first bloom on an Ebb Tide, still in the nursery pot. I know that I should pinch it off (and from here, I will), but I want to leave this one out so that I can see the color and smell the scent. :)

We are due for some seriously hot weather next week, so I will be putting all my new still-in-pots bands and other roses in the shade for a few days. I don't want them to fry, and this is the kind of heatwave that has fried well established plants. So I'll hold off on planting for a while (not too long, but past the heatwave), and then, once it's "safe", I'll put them in.

And I ordered two Julias yesterday, as well as a Peace (not sure where I'm going to put that one...). And rooted 15 lavender and started some delph, hollyhocks, sweet peas and foxglove seeds yesterday. Hopefully, in about 7 days when they sprout, I will get them into plugs, and then in 15-20 days put them into the ground...that way, come spring, I've got some seriously happy and hardy companion plants.

Cottage and rose gardens proceed apace...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Mirning, everyone.

Two questions this morning.

1. We are going to have a horribly hot few days. Temps over 105* today and tomorrow. I have several bands in pots that I'm concerned about...they're in part shade and also tucked in between other pots so that the roots can stay cool, but what else should I do? I don't want to lose these little guys...and I'm just a tad worried that I haven't done enough for them for this sort of heat. (And yes, there will be a little Santa Ana winds tonight/tomorrow).

2. I have decided to consider moving my Queen Elizabeth. Right now, she's in the front of the garden (well, the front by the driveway), and has been known to shoot stems up to about 7'. I'd really love to get her to more of a place where she can be seen in the back of a bed, but am hesitant to move her.

She's healthy and old - perhaps 15 years. She also needs some serious work on the base, with canes that are barky and woody. She's set to be pruned heavily come late december (using the hand saw as Michael suggested), but if I move her, I'll take some of her trunk down when I do that.

So my question about her is, when to transplant? Here in the San Fernando Valley, we don't actually get a winter. The last few years, we've barely gotten down into freezing temps. So I'm not sure when would be the best time.

I watched Paul Zimmerman's transplanting video, and think it's a fab method. But still...the timing is of concern.

Any help on those two questions would be fantastic...thanks, as always!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Just one thing. We've used fresh horse manure for years, and the roses love it. The only caveat would be if the horses are eating weeds. THEN I would compost it. :-)

Jeri


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RE: New, need help

Jerijen, I can access tons of fresh manure. But I thought it had to rot out/compost (which I am not set up for) before using it in the garden.

You use it "fresh" meaning, no composting or letting it sit? I wonder if that would work here? Do you just put a few nuggets down, or fork it through and loosen it up, and then spread it?

Huh. I'd be happy if there were no serious need to compost it (like I said, not set up for it, and already have a few Neighbor McNasties who would be cranky about flies and smell...)

Tell me more, please...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Hi Herding Cats and welcome to the forum. Great place, eh!

Just ensure your bands are plenty moist. Not soaking, but don't let them dry out and you'll be fine.

In your climate, you can move roses any time of year, but the hotter it is, the more work for you and more stress on the rose. Personally late fall is my favorite time of year (similar climate) to move roses, after all the heat waves are over. So - you're almost there. Gives them the most time to establish themselves for the next spring. I only have experience moving up to 3 year old roses, so don't know how much different it is moving a 15 year rose (figuring it could be significant). Roses are so hardy - be as careful as you can with your roots, have your planting hole fully prepared and as soon as you have it out of it's old hole, into the new hole it should go. I also find extra water at this time (but, I'm in sand and not clay) is really helpful.

Regarding horse manure, I have a horse ranch. I'm a lazy mulcher. The freshest manure I'll use is a couple weeks old (in peek of summer - composts faster), or few months old other times of year. It's ideal if the manure balls no longer have their form - then you can really use it about any way you want - scratched into ground, as a top mulch, or mixed into your dirt to fill holes. If you still have manure balls, don't put it "in" the ground where it will touch any roots. You can use it as mulch (I use about 2-3" manure mulch on top soil throughout the garden), but keep anything with manure balls well away from the canes of your roses so you don't burn them. Manure from horses on all alfalfa is heaven (and cheaper than buying alfalfa which is really expensive). I feed 1/2 alfalfa, 1/2 oat - and live with oats coming up everywhere - but they pull out easy (in sand).

And - always listen to your roses. They'll tell you better than anyone, what is working and what is not over time, if you listen to them.


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RE: New, need help

Harmony, thanks SOOO much.

Tango and Ladybug are currently on 4 way, with some alfalfa pellets and graining thrown in there once a day. Yes, straight Alfalfa is terribly expensive, and it makes them both too hot to handle anyway, so I don't go that route. The 4 way has oat in it...but I don't expect a ton of weeds to grow, but even if they do, I love being in the garden and working around the flowers, so I can weed...it's all right with me.

I was thinking about how I could age some manure. Do you (or anyone) think it would be all right to age some straight nuggets in, say, a kiddie pool open at the top, and just lightly "water" it, turn it every few days, and that would be good enough after a month or so? Again, Neighbor McNasties and all, I can't do a full-bore compost (although in my next home, I absolutely will). I would LOVE to use horse poop...free, decently transportable, and apparently quite good for the gardens.

I am also going to wait until we are more consistently in a cooler pattern to transplant Queen Lizzy. When I came in this morning at 11:30, it was already 96*, so today and tomorrow and part of the week will be that kind of heat. Not going to do much but give extra water for everything right now...the heat wilts *me*, not to mention my growing things.

I tried using the mattox today in the back area...and it did not penetrate much beyond 1 inch. LOL. Told you guys that nothing - not even weeds - grow here...too compacted and "dead". So for the next few days, I'm going to flood it out every day...and then add some of the bagged compost and garden soil, and flood again for a few days. Maybe that will make things workable...but I'm seriously also considering having the gardeners come out and power-till the area, so that I can just get through the upper part more easily.

And I'm also going to get a post hole digger...that is a fairly inexpensive item, and since I need to fix some fence line (in other areas) and will need to dig holes for the posts, I figure maybe I can use the post hole digger to get some of the seriously compacted/dead dirt turned and aerated.

And ***YES*** to listening to the roses. I have some which are very "loud" in communicating, and Q. Liz is one of them. I don't want to trash her, but she really needs a bigger space to flourish. I will wait to transplant her, like I said, but it will be nice to have her in a spot where it isn't a problem for 7' stems...she just LOVES to throw flowers way above my head, and I want to put her somewhere that would not be an issue...like the back of a bed. It's a problem now, because I have to really thump her when I cut the flowers, and when I'm working around her, she's always snagging me and scratching me (I have to get around her to work on the rest of the bed...and she has some serious thorns...). So she'll be moved, and I'm not going to worry about if she'll survive. She's healthy and happy with neglect and a smaller area, so I can't even begin to imagine what she'll be like in a better spot.

Thanks, as always, for your advice. And that goes for everyone here. This is a GREAT forum, and I really appreciate the advice and suggestions and hints. It makes this adventure far less...concerning, I suppose you'd say.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Near us, there is a horse ranch, which helpfully bags up their manure, and leaves it out for gardeners to pick up.

And they do.
When we use it, we take it home and mulch around the roses with it, and water it in well. We are careful not to pile it up right around the plant.

Watered in, the smell of the horse manure disappears for us in a day (I offer this as contrast to the smell of well-rotted alfalfa tea, which our neighbor attests holds its smell for a couple of days.)

I didn't believe that, when a couple of older ladies told me, but it works FINE. And the roses put on an immediate spurt of growth. We've done it for years.

Dean Reynolds Hole, in "A BOOK ABOUT ROSES," (mine is the 11th edition) wrote an entire chapter on "MANURES." This is wittily-written material from a man who knew roses from the ground up, and the relationship between roses and manure has not altered in more than a century.

Of course, composting won't hurt it. But it is not NECESSARY.

Jeri


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RE: New, need help

And of course, I forgot to ask...

Coffee grounds and epsom salts. I keep reading about them as a supplement for the roses, and since I drink a fair bit of coffee (a pot a day, give or take...) so I've got grounds, and an epsom salt bath was part of my recovery treatment, I've got a lot of that laying around, too.

How would one use them? Should one use them? And why are they good? (I understand the use of bananas/peels, as they are high in potassium...and eggshells for available calcium). So help me understand coffee grounds and epsom salt.

Again, thanks...I do appreciate all the help a lot.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. Your soil is the most important aspect of your roses. It's not on display like your roses but it will reward you the more time and money you spend on it. I have seen the difference in my own yard.
I have clay soil. Roses wouldn't grow and bloom. I'd fertilize, mulch, etc, doing all the above ground stuff.
Didn't improve the soil.
Finally rented a tiller and tilled all rose beds adding composted manure, worm castings, packaged garden soil, a bit of play sand, a bit of gravel and rabbit poo. Down to a depth of 2 feet. It will fluff up your soil. You could trench around the beds too so that they would be raised a bit.
My roses have quadrupled in size.
It's cliche "don't plant a $5 rose in a 5 cent hole" and truer words were never spoken.
Hire a local college guy and make like a homesteader on those beds.
It makes it so much easier to plant new roses as well.
Also, fish emulsion. 1 tablespoon per gallon is nice and reasonably cheap.
Worm castings are expensive but lovely.
I am a new addict too!
Susan


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RE: New, need help

As to Epsom Salts -- when we began with roses, we were told epsom salts were very important, so we dutifully gifted our roses.

THEN we found out that our personal soil had LOTS of magnesium sulfate already and did not NEED more of the stuff. In fact, it was detrimental, in our conditions.

DUH. That's how I learned that before you throw on a lot of supplementary stuff, a soil test can be a good idea. Because what was great for the rose expert 50 miles inland from me was -- NOT right for my garden.

Coffee grounds probably won't hurt. They're organic material, after all. I toss 'em out there, when I think about it. They compost well, too. So does tea, for that matter.

Jeri


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RE: New, need help

I will check with my neighbor - she had a soil test done, and she's right across the way. She hadn't done anything to it before she did the test, so it's "clean", I suppose you'd say.

I am hesitant to use epsom, but it was good for me, is good for my horses, and seems to be something folks use around here (I've seen it in the nurseries). But I'll double check and see what I can find out.

And, next time I'm up at the barn (probably Tuesday), I'll grab some nuggets and bring home some stuff for my garden. The barn owner will be laughing, but she's probably used to it, I suspect. LOL. And there's a big ol' bin near where I park, so that'll be easy to pack 'n' load. LOL. My horses are going to wonder at my sudden interest in their poop (aside from just checking for normal stuff...).

best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Once, when we were at that stable to pick up manure, another woman drove in, on the same errand.

WE were in a pickup.
SHE was driving a new-model Mercedes ... and there was a baby in a car-seat, in the back seat.

The stuff is set out in a dusty mound of bags, in the middle of a dirt area -- old feed bags, thick black plastic bags . . .

Mercedes Lady opened her trunk, and tossed in as many bags as it would hold. Then, she opened the front passenger door, and filled that with bags, right up to where she would sit to drive. Next, she stuffed the back seat with the bags, filling it up to the ceiling, and right up to the car seat with the baby.

And off she went.

I have always thought perhaps the car belonged to an ex-husband . . .

Jeri


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RE: New, need help

LOL, Jeri, might just be an ex's car. As for me, I have my sports car (a Honda S2000 convertible), and my "regular" car - a 2002 Camry. I almost sold the Camry, but ended up keeping it when I got my Newfoundland dog...she's a big, big girl, and wouldn't have fit in the Honda when she was full grown...so I ended up keeping the Camry.

Right now, I've got a saddle, several blankets, and tons of other things in the trunk...and still had enough room for 10x3.5 cu. ft of compost and garden soil. LOL.

I have NO hesitation in thumping down bags and bags of manure in the Camry...but if I had a truck, it would be nice. And I wouldn't put that stuff in a Mercedes...

Ah well. Must be nice not to care. LOL.

The mini-heat wave will continue through tomorrow, with temps near 100*. But by the end of the week, the temps will be in the low 80s, so it will be perfect ground digging and amending soil weather.

And so far,so good with the bands and the 1 gals...they've gotten extra water this morning, gentle drinks. So they should be just fine come the end of the heatwave, and hopefully, this will be the last superhot time of the year.

'Cause I've got some work to do!!! Along wtih getting the manure to the house, I've got tons of garden prep to do, and then plant quite a few roses and other things (clematis, wisteria, lilac bushes, bougainvilla, jasmine, hydrangeas along with some seedlings) LOL...lots of work, but it will be fun, and it will look wonderful in a few months.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

About the relationship between roses and horse manure being the same for the last 100 years or so. Well, the Romans used it, too, in their compost. They had underground compost pits that were warm, and grew roses and other plants above them, so the manure that was composting gave warmth to plants in the winter.


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RE: New, need help

Don't add epsom salts without a soil test that shows low magnesium. Some clay soils in California and elsewhere already have an excess of magnesium. Regular use of epsom salts on these soils is harmful.

Coffee grounds have 1.5% nitrogen and a little phosphorus. They are good for the soil @ 2-4 cups per application, but no need to mess with it if you have manure.

Do not dig, till, or work the soil when it is wet. It should be dry enough that clods break rather than mash. If a soil test shows high sodium and not high calcium, addition of gypsum can help loosen clay soil. Digging in 3" of manure and routine top-dressing with manure will work wonders.


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RE: New, need help

Thank you, Michael.

When you say don't work the soil when it's wet, I understand that in theory. But I've got this strip that's 4-5 feet wide, maybe 25-30 feet long, that the mattox can't get into more than an inch while dry.

The only thing that can happen is top dressing with store bought compost and mulch, if I don't dig while wet. Now, it's not soggy or muddy; it's just wet, like sand at the beach (but not sand, if that makes sense). Nothing grows there...not even weeds.

I'd like to be able to at least work whatever I put down to a shovel's depth...but can't get the shovel in (and I'm too cheap to rent a tiller. LOL).

How should I work this?

And yes, if the manure works better, I won't bother with coffee grounds. I drink enough coffee, but if there's enough with some manure, then I won't bother. And check to the epsom salts. In listening to my roses that are doing well, I don't think I'll put any down...haven't done that before, so don't think I'll start now. It was just something I was wondering about, as I've heard about it from different sources.

Thanks so much for your help! It is greatly appreciated!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

  • Posted by jenn SoCal 9/19 (My Page) on
    Tue, Oct 2, 12 at 12:20

You've already gotten terrific advice and I have nothing to add. I just want to congratulate you on acquiring such a treasure from your father. Your project is a labor of love that will give you much joy and reward in the years to come.

I would love to see some 'before' and 'after' pictures if you are willing to share them. I love reading about garden restoration projects, especially involving roses, and try to imagine the plants going from overgrown brown sad-looking monstrosities to green blooming beauties.


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RE: New, need help

Cats, I am also in CA and have some areas with that wonderful soil that my guy brought me the Hilti Chipping gun to use to dig in it (with a clay spade)

But, what we do is water it a bit, wait a day, and then I can get a shovel in it. In places I have loaded that top shovels worth in to wheel barrows and then repeated the process to get down a second shovels worth.

We then mixed the horse manure with the wheel barrow loads of "soil" and broke up to put back in the holes. My mom had resorted to using a hammer to break up some of those clods.

We then watered the area and waited for the weeds to sprout, and they do! It makes it easier to know what is a weed if you water and wait rather than just plant if you are using seeds (easier to weed around roses than veggies)

The good news is the places we worked the soil like this we know have incredible soils that are easy to dig.


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RE: New, need help

Thanks, Kippy.

That's kind of what I'm doing. I've soaked, scraped, sorted, and separated the soil, and hopefully tomorrow I'll bring home bags of horse poo and get that into the pile; turn it over a time or two, and then spread it around. I'm hoping that will attract some worms, or weeds...if either of those appear, I'll know it's somewhat done. LOL.

I got a 2x3 ft patch dug down three inches today. The third soak allowed the mattox to get in and do it. YAY, at least now I know it's doable. It's hard, and I'm sweating like a pig, but it's doable. And that's good.

The part that I'm having the worst time with is this one stretch (and it's a big stretch) in the back yard. The front and side areas for my roses are coming along very nicely; they're not compacted and hard to turn; they just hadn't been tended in years. They were not compacted, just roses stuck in the ground under trees and left to do whatever.

They will be very easy to amend with horse poop...and whatever else I'm going to do (probably combo garden soil and compost...). The happiest Eden is in this soil, and doing fantastically well already. I'm worried what will happen once I get the soil done. LOL...a fence eating monster, I hope. LOL.

I amended the soil in the front of the house rose bed (the one next to my house, not the fenceline), and EVERYTHING is showing complete bliss in what I've done. I have a better water delivery system in place - amended the sprinklers with some drip - and put down 5 bags of compost/mulch, put a wee bit of Miracle Gro a month ago, put down some Rose Tone last week...and they're just getting happy.

In fact, one rose (which I dislike a lot...no scent, too pink, old bush...) which had been on the SP list I'm now feeling guilty about SPing. LOL. It's given me a bloom, but the stems are scraggly and crooked...and I just plain don't care for this rose. But I feel GUILTY...LOL...about SPing it.

I will have to be ruthless, though. Just steel myself and SP it anyway.

It's just the back yard that is suffering...and difficult to work. But that's all right...I'll get it done somehow. LOL. I have a dog that's the size of a mini horse (bigger than some), and I'm beginning to think that I should teach her how to pull a harrow. LOLOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

You'll need to water more than an inch to wet the soil 12" deep and then wait several days until it is semi-dry, not squishable/.


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RE: New, need help

Jenn said:
You've already gotten terrific advice and I have nothing to add. I just want to congratulate you on acquiring such a treasure from your father. Your project is a labor of love that will give you much joy and reward in the years to come.
I would love to see some 'before' and 'after' pictures if you are willing to share them. I love reading about garden restoration projects, especially involving roses, and try to imagine the plants going from overgrown brown sad-looking monstrosities to green blooming beauties."

I hope to be able to get before/after photos...I'm doing a lot of work, and it indeed is a treasure. I am blessed indeed.

I looked at my house from Google, and realized you couldn't see the yards or the house for the trees. That was the first job...getting these trees under control. I'm not yet done, but since tree guys are expensive, I have to do it in spurts. My first big tree work was done when I realized how unsafe the house and yard (and electrical wires) were simply because of the trees.

The second time was because the city where I live came by and said "cut these back, or we'll fine you." So I cut them back.

Now, all that's left is getting all the deadwood down, and trimming a few of the more "wild" growing trees. Once that's done, the place will be "safe."

But more than that, I've taken down two hedges, cleared the front fence of lantana, moved easily 4x5 sq ft of lilies, and gotten to planting some things and bringing other things around (mostly roses, but some other things like blueberry bushes, bougainvilla, and hydrangeas, too).

It's been a long project, and I'm only about 1/2 way done. But since I'm back on my feet from the surgery in May, I feel like I can get things done this fall, and come late winter, I'll have a delightful, luscious garden, front, side and back, that will reflect the cottage that this house really is.

And I'm just so thrilled to have found this site, and discovered that you all are SOOOO welcoming and helpful. It really has made a difference to me...given me some more courage and direction. And that's always a good thing.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Oh Man Cats, I think we could have a good laugh over some of the garden exploits in our parents yards!

I am at the 6+ year point....lol you are way faster than me!

My dad was a garden hoarder; fruit trees, cacti etc... I am still thinning the herd of fruit trees and even adding a few that we want.


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RE: New, need help

When the soil is that tough and the water runs off, a layer of mulch will help the water stay and soak into the clay. I know what you are saying about the shovel will not go in or the pick bounces off like it was hitting rock. Water a few times and let the mulch hold it in place and it will wet the area so that in a few days you can get the shovel blade in. After doing my irrigation trenches in clay last summer, my sister said I looked like I had hired a personal trainer. That was the best looking back and rear end I ever had in my life. You are going to get more than great roses out of this heavy labor.


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RE: New, need help

Kitty, I hadn't tried the mulch idea, but since I'm heading to the garden center today...I will get some extra bags of just plain mulch and put those down.

Yes, I suspect I will shape up a tad with this overhaul. LOL, I already have, but it will be even moreso once that strip has been handled.

But in the end, I'll have tons of gorgeous roses, happy and healthy...and lots of other flowers, also happy and heathy, and the garden will be like a fairy tale. Which is the goal, at least. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

So, I went to the nursery today, and got some gypsum. They say it will help with the soil conditions, and suggested that I apply the gypsum, add some compost/mulch, and then water deeply...and turn the soil in 3 days, water again, and by the second 3 days I should be able to get the shovel all the way in.

So, I'll give that a try. And after the second 3-day, I will put down some horse poop. After that, I should be able to plant some roses in there, and not have a huge worry about the soil...the combination of the gypsum and turning, and then adding the horse poop, should allow continued (what is the word I'm looking for??) development (not that word) of the soil under the roses for some time.

We'll see how things go. I'm just tickled, though, because I got notification that the Julia Childs and Peace will come on Friday, and Soft Whisper and Moondance will come next week. So I'd best hustle and get the ground worked!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

I just saw Moondance for the first time this past weekend. She is gorgeous.

Oh- you are such an addict in the making! Be careful in this group of enablers.


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RE: New, need help

Isn't Moondance gorgeous? I haven't seen it in person, but I hear it's a wonderful, vigorous grower, lots of blooms, and a wonderful scent.

I'm excited. I've finally decided where Moondance will go...in my front area walkway. I'm going to SP the poorly performing Double Delight - one single bloom this year, no response to fertilizer, very twisted stems (a hallmark of DD), and I'm also going to SP something else (a rose that I have no idea what it is, hasn't grown in a year, no blooms at all that I can remember...just a dud).

In their place, I'm putting Soft Whisper (a new introduction from JP, a HT that is cream and pink) and the Moondance. I may even add to this walk a Peace, which should be coming tomorrow...

The front walk goes between the "Rose Garden" area and the lawn. The whole area has pastels and whites (2 PJPIIs at the entrance), and the only color is bright yellow with a Radiant Peace and a Midas Touch on either side of the walk. Other roses in the area are Betty White, and a Brass Band, which is going to get pruned out...not a bush that I want to keep as a focal point there. I will also be transplanting the Q. Liz from this area to the backyard, where she can be big and boisterous and happy in the background...

So in keeping with the pastels and the fragrance, I'm adding the Moondance and the Soft Whisper to the walkway edging, and adding Fragrant Plum (not really pastel) and St. Cecilia to the "Roses" area under the loquat tree (which gave me far more fruit than I could ever use last year, upwards of 400 pounds, so I gave it a solid trim and cutback this year...)(and all this is at the front of my house).

I have enough room in that bed to add two more roses, and I'm not sure which I will add. I may throw in some bright colored high fragrance ones, or not. Not sure yet...

Behind and to the side of the Rose area, I'll have two climbers next to the chimney. Not sure which ones I'll put there, but I've got Zeffy, Ginger Syllabub, Portlandia, CP Margareta, and Shropshire Lad (although I think SLad will go in the back yard on a fence).

Addicted? Who me? You mean it's NOT normal to lay awake and imagine your rose gardens in full bloom? To plot and plan on paper what will grow where, what combines with other plantings, and how to achieve the look one is after?

Huh. Maybe I *am* addicted. But at least it's legal! (LOL).

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

I am ***LIVID***. My gardeners came yesterday, and despite many, many directions to not ever ever cut my roses, and emails to that effect to the management...

I went out this morning, and ***all*** the laterals on my climbing Eden, most with buds, were cut OFF!! Like they took a weed whacker and went right across the top. And there weren't clean cuts, either...jagged edges. So I had to trim the cut laterals back to bud eyes, and clean up/cut back the two big beautiful canes that had gotten scored by whatever machine they used.

I am furious. I had been looking forward to a beautiful fall flush of blooms. Now there will be nothing. It's a healthy plant; I've no doubt it will grow back. But still...they cut all the lovely big laterals that had worked so hard to give me a bud; now I don't expect any blooms from that plant until February at the earliest. It's not even 3 years yet; it was just starting to "leap" and I hadn't pruned it yet.

I am soooo upset.

Just thought I'd share that. My Eden got weed whacked, and I'm waiting on the gardener's field supervisor to call. This will not be a pretty conversation. I spend way more than market value for these gardeners, and I expect that if I ask them to NOT touch the roses, that they'd at least follow that direction.

Man. Just vomit all over that, you know? Auuughhhhhhh.

Sigh.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

You don't know how often that sort of thing happens.

"Mow and Blow" maintenance gardeners for the most part don't have a clue as to how to deal with roses. Gardeners who DO are as scarce as hen's teeth.

Jeri


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RE: New, need help

One of my clients owns a mow and blow service, when I asked about having his guys trim my hedge...He raised one eye brow and said "Have you seen what they did to my hedge? You don't want _______ cutting your hedge" His own guys had cut a hedge that was supposed to be 8 feet tall down to 4 feet.

I hope that your gardeners boss gives you a price break that reflects the "quality" of the service you are getting.


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RE: New, need help

Well, I don't know what they are going to do. The office said they'd bring me a "new" rose to replace it. LOL, if they can find a 2.5-3 year old Climbing Eden with 7 foot canes at this time of year, they can bring it and plant it along the fence line (where I have to put a rose in anyway).

But I don't want "a" new rose. Unless it's an Eden in comparable condition (price probably about $120 or so; was when I purchased it), I don't want "a" rose just thrown in.

I wrote a very PO'd email...and haven't gotten a response yet. I am hoping that the field manager comes by tomorrow, because he's the one I know, and he's the one who I can talk to.

These guys are a bit more than a Mow and Blow. They're fairly good, in many ways...or I wouldn't pay the amount I pay. But to do this - two days after I'd emailed them and said "don't touch the roses!:...just chaps my beeeeehind.

Nothing I can do about it...just give the Eden a good long drink of water, and clean out the butchered stems and whatnot, and give it a little feed. Can't make the blooms or laterals come back...just have to get over it. But I'm ticked off.

I did get the Julia Childs and Peace roses from Stargazer today, and they're in great shape...and I repotted some lavender starts I had sent a week or so ago. And put down gypsum and mulch on the desert in the back. So I got other things done, but still can't "shake it off." LOL...I wanted those gorgeous blooms in my house in two weeks. And they would have been here, too...except for a gung ho guy with a weed whacker.

Sigh.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

If I were you, I'd think about replacing them with an individual with some experience. They are out there. The hired fellows come and go and often have no incentive to stay very long. The mowers they bring are full of everyone's weeds. Get someone who will use your edger and mower or you will battle weeds forever. And the hired men will blow the grass and weeds into your beds. A high school or college student that needs extra income and lives close by is the way to go. You can tell them what you want done and they will not do more than that.

Most mow and go crews just dont care one bit what you say. They will do whatever they decide is right that day and will make a mess and do raggedy cuts and stomp your beds down. They will rake up your mulch you hauled in along with the leaves and take it to the dump. They will spread weeds like a plague. They will break your irrigation with the machines and never tell you. I could go on. Get rid of these guys and find someone you can work with.


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RE: New, need help

If you really want a bigger Eden, Otto and Sons has 117 of them on their live inventory list. (Can you tell I am itching to visit for their 40% off sale...sigh)

I know our nursery had a bunch of them too, but they just closed the rose fields for the season


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RE: New, need help

Ah - thank you for reminding me that no matter how much work/time my garden takes, I will never allow another human to put their hands on it.


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RE: New, need help

Kippy, thanks so much for that reference. I just spent some time on the website, and even called them to see what they had available. They have 15 gals 8 foot staked Edens for $124...they only deliver to my area with a $300 purchase, so I'd have to go up. Not a big deal...I could go.

The only plants they have on sale are the 5 gals., and when I checked on their PJPII, they're not ready for sale just yet.

Not a bad cost, considering I spent the same for 4 foot canes at my local nursery...but still, not sure I'm up to the drive. OTOH, the more I think about it, the more I think perhaps my gardeners should make the drive...and eat the cost of the new rose.

It's not like the Eden I have won't come back...she just won't come back until next year, at this point. Not sure what I'm going to do...we'll see.

I do have a ton of gardening to get done this morning...the roses are here for Papa's Garden, the Julia Childs and the Ebb Tides. I'll get those in for sure, and likely the Peace that arrived, as well (huge and happy plant). After that, I think I'll just turn soil, and see how far I can get with that.

Thanks again, Kippy, for the reference to Otto and Sons. I expect I'll be headed there in April for "Rose Days", and likely earlier...they have an Austin Test Garden, which is intriguing...and you can go visit it. So I may just go up and lurk around and see what I can see.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

So at least some progress has been made. The ground was workable in Papa's Garden, and I put in the two Julia Childs and the three Ebb Tides. I also was able to put in the very healthy and happy Peace rose in the front walk, where I had shovel pruned an unnamed rose yesterday.

Supplemented with bone meal and Rose Tone, gave all a good long drink, and will watch and wait and see how things go. Both Ebb Tide and Julia Childs are bands of own roots, so it will be a little while before they do much of anything, but that Peace is very vigorous (grafted container), so it shouldn't be too long before that one finds roots and grows.

I'll finish out the walkway with a Moondance and Soft Whisper.

And then it will be time to figure out what I'm doing in the other areas. LOL.

And I haven't heard from my gardeners yet. Probably won't until next week, I guess. I may send them an email with the link to Otto and Sons, and suggest they go get an Eden climber (15 gal is all they have right now; fine by me).

But work continues...and it's nice to be out there and getting my hands in the dirt. Now if only the desert in the back would transform. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

I shouldn't be so tough. Not everyone is bad. I have seen so many landscapes damaged by know nothings who are badly paid and have to rush from one place to the next. There is a nice guy who trims trees and trims my neighbors fern pine twice a year. After about 5 visits to my neighbors garden, I asked for his card. He has come over a few times to help with trees and once for some general pruning and haul away of excess bamboo. He actually listens to me and wants to learn about my different plants.

My main complaint is with the guys who are going out there and cutting not having a clue what they are doing. The company that does the house next door have almost killed the roses there. When they came, the roses were overgrown but healthy. Now they are ravaged and barely hanging on. The earth is stripped bare by rakes and blowers and weeds have moved in. If they finally get to the many weeds, they have already set a zillion seeds. The guys push the weed hoes right into the canes causing damage. The beds never had weeds before these guys came. Maybe there were one or 2 but nothing like now. The soil won't hold water anymore because it is sloped and without mulch, the short irrigation it gets runs right off. Some of the plants are so stressed that the rootstock has begun to try to take over. It makes me so sad that a few careless guys coming once a week could do this.


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RE: New, need help

You sound like you know what you are doing, but just in case you haven't thought of this I thought I would add:

I also deal with heavy clay soil and I have found that a well made, tall and sturdy garden fork with strong, thick tines is my bestest gardening friend. I hardly ever touch the shovel or spade - only the garden fork for trying to get down deep enough to plant roses or any other perennial or to take them out or even to divide them and replant. I even use it for digging in enough to place in annuals. I use it for almost everything.

I hope you already knew this and have been spared an unnecessarily sore back but if not, I think you will find this to be an important garden tool. When we moved here (from sandy soil conditions) my garden neighbor (who was to become a valued friend) told me that I should get one, showed me how she used it and since then my garden fork goes where I go in spring and fall when I'm doing the grunt work in my rose and flower beds. Of course, as already advised, never ever plant in wet clay nor try to amend wet clay -

Hope this helps.


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RE: New, need help

It's all right, Kitty. It's hard finding gardeners that listen to the homeowner. My biggest issue is I don't have a mower or blower, or I'd do my own gardening (I think).

But I don't understand how hard it is to NOT do some work...I mean, if I asked them to DO something, and they didn't have time, or the skill...well, I'd understand. But I asked them to NOT do something, and that takes NO effort at all. You know? Sigh.

I'll make sure I talk to the manager on Monday. I am likely going to run up to Otto and Sons come the end of next week, because I've decided I want to go see a few things they have...and maybe come home with an Eden for the other part of the fence. But still...I'm frustrated. I don't understand why NOT doing something was too hard to do. LOL.

MyLab, I don't know the first thing about what I'm doing. I am having fun, and I'm learning a ton, and I'm discovering that I find a peace while in the garden that I don't have elsewhere (especially since my cancer surgery earlier this year...it's been hard finding 'peace' at all).

I will absolutely take your advice on the wide tined fork. I can get one at the feed and tack store inexpensively, and it's a good tool to have around in general.

The good news is, that the transplants I put into the ground yesterday (the Julia Childs, Ebb Tides and Peace roses) all seem to be doing just fine. Nothing scary, and while it's still early in the game, I'm thinking that things are going well.

And I've finished putting out all the compost and mulch that I have here, and need more. LOL. But that's all right; just another excuse to go to the nursery. LOL.

I opened up my seed starting stuff, and I was thrilled to find that most of the sweet peas and hollyhocks sprouted. I have pressed them into little tray plugs, and in a few weeks, I'm hoping to get them into the ground. That will be a good start on next spring's flowers and riots of blossoms.

But I think maybe the best thing was, I looked at the garden earlier today, and thought "wow, things are coming along". Even my postman, who is aesthetically challenged, has said things are looking really nice. And two dear neighbors walking this morning said that they love coming past my house, to see what's changed and what's happening, and to "just admire" it. That made me feel really good.

I'm pleased. Still frustrated about the aggressive weed whacker, but still, I'm pleased. And I'll also say that the Eden doesn't seem to have any serious issues with being walloped like that; she seems to be just fine. No drooping, no sulking, no weird reactions...and even some new growth already (which I'm sure was already there, just not visible yet). No, I won't get my fence full of blooms, but at least she's handled it and seems to be all right.

In the meantime, back I go to fight the dead ground. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Wow, you're doing a great job, and I'm with you about finding peace in the garden!

In defense of my mow and blow guys, they do a great job here, at a great price, and apparently have understood me about not messing with the beds, although most of them don't speak English (I'm in Texas). At 71, I'm past the mowing stage, and can use all the help I can get!

Don't know how large your garden is, but I get mulch delivered in 4 yard increments dumped in my driveway, which is cheaper if you need a lot, and believe me, it's your friend in the long run!


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RE: New, need help

Peace is a great rose out here. If you let it grow large, it will reward you. I just snap off old flowers these days and cut out dead wood. Some people say that you can't smell Peace until you cut it and put it in a vase.


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RE: New, need help

  • Posted by jenn SoCal 9/19 (My Page) on
    Sun, Oct 7, 12 at 13:35

It sounds like you are making great progress! I was on vacation when I read about your beloved Eden being hacked down and felt sick for you. AGGHH! I'd say it's normal to feel the anguish you do for at least a few days, considering what you requested, and what you've been anticipating from her this Fall. Fortunately, all is not lost and I hope she'll come back even stronger for you in the coming years.

We have a gardener I call a few times a year to prune the plants in the front yard when they get out of hand. Our neighbor referred him to us as someone who knows what he's doing. Right from the start, he knew exactly what I wanted without me having to explain anything -- each plant (numerous Salvias, Lantana groundcover) selectively pruned, NOT shaved into little mushrooms. I didn't even have to explain anything, he just knows. He spends a few hours and when he's finished, the whole front yard looks neat as a pin, and he leaves all the clippings in a pile for us to run through the chipper-shredder to make mulch. He speaks and understands English very well. He actually works for a local nursery and does this on the side. I'm very thankful to have him. But the backyard -- that's all mine! :)


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RE: New, need help

OG, yes, I like having the mow and blow part of things...I'm essentially quite lazy, and if someone will do (as I ask) the yards, I'll pay for it. Unfortunately, I don't have any neighborhood kids who'd do it...not in this area. And since I don't have a mower or a blower, I will continue to use a gardener. I just want them to understand me, you know? LOL. And all my spanish is medical spanish - I'm an RN - so it's not helpful when talking to my gardeners...

Kitty, my Peace is in the walkway. If you picture a 3 foot walkway in river walk from the driveway to the front door, the "walkway" garden spot is to the right. It's about 2.5 feet wide, and about 25 feet long (or just a bit more). To the left of the river rock is the "rose bed" which is about 8 foot by 20 feet, curved like the actual walkway, and it's lined with brick, too. So to come to the door, you come up the river rock, and have a planting area on both sides...and the one on the right is the smaller area that I call the "walkway bed".

It has (will have) roses and lavender and pansies and violets, and ends at a tree just at the door. Down by the driveway is where the Peace rose is, with the Radiant Perfume to it's south, separated by a Goodwin Creek lavender. It's in a great location in terms of sun, and it can grow rather large there (I hope about 4 foot by 2-3 foot). I don't have a great nose for delicate fragrance, so I'm hoping that it does have some fragrance, and if it's a good cut flower here, I'm hoping it will give me good fragrance in the vase.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Jenn, yes, it's definitely a grief moment. Sigh. And I still look at her and get frustrated. However, there is already some new red growth in the general area, so I'm hopeful. I don't think I missed it while I was pegging her just a bit ago, but I may have. Even if I missed it and it's not regrowth from the butchering, I'm hopeful that this new growth will bloom for me...will pop some buds and give me some flowers. I have more hope today that there will still be some flowers this year from her than I was 5 days ago. But I'm still frustrated, too.

As for what I managed to get done today, I put down some drip irrigation in the side yard, moved the potted tomato plants, prepared a planter for the peas which will go in this week or next, and reorganized my strawberry plants (all in containers) and got everything set up with it's own drip line stuff.

I also cleared out the service porch of "stuff", and will be erecting a simple coldframe (tall, medium sized, three shelves) for my seedlings and transplants. That will go in a very protected, sunny in the morning only spot, which I've taken to calling "the nursery"...it's where I am trying to root some lavender and will keep the more tender plants until they acclimate to my area. I am also going to plant some wisteria (there's a tree I HATE growing there, but it would cost too much to remove) so the wisteria will climb and cover that tree. I am also considering putting in a climber back there, but I am not sure there is enough sun for a traditional climber. I may put in my Zeffy there, as it can handle "part sun" better than the Portlandia or the Ginger Syllabub (or so it says in the ads. We'll see!).

This week, though, I will be working to get the irrigation how I want it. I've got several soaker hoses, what feels like miles (but only 200 ft) of drip line 1/2 inch, about the same in 1/4 inch, and enough parts and gadgets to cover just about any scenario. I'm trying to figure out how to get a mister set up in the coldframe, as that would be optimum...

And I'm converting at least two sprinkler heads to dripline irrigation...one by my sidewalk fence, and another in the back yard. Both of those will go directly into rose areas, and I'm beginning to think that drip irrigation is a better deal every way I think about it...financially, aesthetically, environmentally. And it's fun figuring out drip lines and soakers...like a puzzle.

And just to note...the Ebb Tide that had the bud on it when it arrived opened fully today. The scent, even in such a tiny rose, is amazing. The color is very saturated and, since it's quite young, still more of a neon magenta rather than a purple...but they say it will deepen as it ages. I'm quite thrilled that it opened...to me, that means the plant took the transplanting well (at least so far)...it didn't drop the bud, it had enough energy to bloom, and it's quite, quite pretty.

From here on, though, I'll pinch the buds off...I want it to establish itself (along with the others), but I wanted it to bloom once, so I could see/smell it. I'm glad I did, too. Papa's garden will be gorgeous next spring...and how nice that will be.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

OK, so I had another (!!) question.

When the description says "full to partial sun", what does that mean, exactly? I have a few David Austins who are supposed to do well in "partial" sun, but I've been hesitant to put them there because...I don't want them to die.

So can someone (pretty please??) explain to me what partial sun actually, really means? I've got some spots that a rose - and a climber, particularly - would look wonderful in, but I don't know if they get enough sun.

Thanks, and thanks so much for helping me out. I'm having a ball getting all this stuff done, even if I did get my nose all scratched up when I tripped over my lazy dog and went headfirst into Queen Liz. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Here's what partial sun means to me in central Orange County

Morning sun gives good fragrance rather than late afternoon sun. Mid day to afternoon sun is fine but late afternoon sun only makes the plants stretch and bloom less. I always prefer morning sun for petals that may burn in summer. The air is cooler in the morning and the roses open slower. For the roses that have no fragrance, I think mid day sun is fine. Pale roses will bleach out their subtle colors in strong afternoon sun. I don't know any rose that likes late day only sun. I finally quit trying it and planted azaleas, camellias, and gardenias in filtered and late day or just a few morning hours of sun. They think it's wonderful.


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RE: New, need help

Newfies are awesome!


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RE: New, need help

Yes, Susan, Newfs are indeed awesome. And cuddly. And sweet. And smart. And gorgeous. And, quite unexpectedly, they're also a HUGE conversation piece; I can't go anywhere with her without it taking several times as long than when I go alone...I call it the "Puparazzi"...folks have stopped their cars and gotten out to see her, when we were walking.

I don't know what they're going to do once she starts pulling...she's learning how to cart right now, but once she's trustworthy in a harness, she will start pulling me...and that will definitely stop traffic. LOL.

Yes, Susan, Newfs are awesome.

Kitty, I have an area in my front yard, that is blocked from late-late afternoon sun. And the way the trees have been thinned, that spot gets several hours (2) in the mid morning, and then about 3 or so in the mid afternoon. It also gets dappled sun between morning and mid afternoon.

I'm thinking of putting a climber over there...but I'm just not sure. I think what I'll end up doing is putting it in a container, and see if it is happy there.

I have one additional spot which needs a climbing rose desperately, and that's by the front door. It doesn't get a ton of sun (maybe 4-5 hours), and it would have to be in a container, but I need a climber there...or maybe some other kind of climbing vine; honeysuckle or another fragrant vine.

I have one spot that faces west, and I was originally thinking that I'd frame the windows with climbing roses, but I don't think it gets enough sun. So, I'm putting hydrangeas under the window, but still want something climbing there, too. It gets sun from about 1 pm until sunset, but some of that is dappled as it moves through the trees in the late afternoon...like 4-6pm.

Meh. I don't know what I am going to do there, other than the hydrangeas...and even those I'm not positive about.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

If you want blue or purple hydrangeas, then dig in plenty of peat moss and mulch with redwood compost to help keep the soil acidic. A big Hydrangea will drink massive amounts of water in summer. You can see the leaves begin to droop when it gets thirsty. I put a soaker hose under mine.

Trying out a space with a potted rose works very well. I let them get to 15 gallon size and move them around until I find "the spot". Digging out big roses is so much work.


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RE: New, need help

I have to say, there is a reason these guys are my gardeners. I *do* like them...and today just confirms why.

I met the gardeners today when they were starting. In my broken spanish and his broken english, he explained that he was trying to protect the plant from cold weather, that the new growth was dangerous to the plant because it could make the whole thing die. So he was trying to save the plant.

Of course, the fact that we'd just survived a late season heat wave (well over 100*) notwithstanding, I understand where he was coming from, and explained *I* will prunefrom here on in.

What is good, is that I was able to show him other climbers in various stages of growth. I showed him bands, first year, second year, and third year, and he saw the difference in cane sizes, and saw what I meant when I tried to say "first year sleep/creep/leap, and explained climbers were different from regular rose bushes in the way, and timing of, cane work.

I told him I would be more than happy to show him "cutting" in January, if he wanted to learn. LOL.

Now, bear in mind, I have NO clue what I'm talking about. But he seems to think I'm some sort of magician rose-grower, because he saw the bands, and seems to think I just planted sticks in the ground. LOL.

He then asked me if I wanted him to feed the roses. Again, I told him no thanks, I will do it.

But it seems that management communicated the message that I was unhappy...they were both very sorry about how upset I am about the Eden (especially when I showed him my other Eden, which is giving me buds...), and said "no rosas por me casa..." and made a big pouty face and pretended to cry.

Still, the message was given clearly...and as long as it's this crew, I suspect there will be no more weedwhacking of my roses.

And I will say, that the Eden that took the beating seems to be trying to give back the blooms...lots of new red growth, some seriously plump bud eyes, and I've got faith that even though it will be a late (late) flush, I will still get one more flush from her this year...maybe in time for Thanksgiving. I'm just sorry that she's putting all this energy into regrowing buds, when she would have been close to being in full bloom.

Just thought I'd update the thread...

And, also, adding a new question. I was looking at Otto and Sons nursery, and am thinking of picking up some 5 gal Distant Drums for one corner of the front. They seem to be a really unique rose, and I like their subtle coloring.

Does anyone have an opinion about DD's growing habit here in this zone, or any hints at growing them? they're just so different looking...and I can imagine them with a bouquet of St. Cecelia or PJPII...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Partial sun for roses means 6 (maybe 5) hours of direct sun from May through August. Sun angles have changed by this time of the year, and most spots have reduced hours of sunlight now. Or 50/50 dappled shade all day can also be OK.

Roses described as "shade tolerant" can bloom with 4 to 5 hours of sun. These may include roses with multiflora heritage, such as hybrid musks (Kathleen) and multiflora ramblers (Veilchenblau) might be good for the spot you describe.


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RE: New, need help

Kippy, I'm blaming you. Not me and my apparently new addiction, no...just you. After all, it was you who said "look at Otto and Sons" and "sale" at the same time...

I ordered (and they will be delivered to me Tuesday...)
1 New Zealand HT
1 Sea Foam Shrub
2 Wildeves David Austin (DA)
2 Gruss an Aachen shrub
2 Teasing Georgia DA
2 CP Margareta (not climbers)DA
3 Distant Drums HT
4 The Fairy polyantha

All are in 5 gals.

The bill was close to $525, not including tax @ 8.75% and delivery ($40 in my area). However, because of that 40% off sale (ahem...), I only paid $320, plus the $40 and tax, comes to a grand total of just about $390.

My wallet is shrieking, but I'm ignoring it...the regular cost of those roses would be something along the lines of $600(without tax and delivery), so I'm not sorry at all.

I'm just considering this as an early Christmas present, or a late "get well" present, or both. LOL.

And just to note: my poor abused Eden is really throwing out some healthy new growth - lots of burgundy red canes, including some basals. In my climate, I'm not the least worried about winter damage, so it looks like Eden took a beating, but is fighting back strong and happy.

YAY.

Now, just to get the areas for the new plants ready. I'm planning to put the two Teasing Georgias in front of the Sea Foam in the back, and probably put the two Wildeves among the blue agapanthas which have to be thinned, that line my back yard. On the back fence, I am going to put two honeysuckle vines, and 1 corckscrew vine: both can climb up the fence and the trees, and will create a nice, fragrant, pretty screen of sorts from my back neighbors.

In the front yard, the Distant Drums will have some blue hydrangeas behind them, in a grouping in the front yard, at the end of the low post and rail fence that the Eden grows on. I will transplant the very happy Eden in a pot out to the fence, as well, so the whole fence will have Eden on it, culminating in the hydrangea/Distant Drums combo.

Lining the front yard, in the space between it and the alley, I'm going to put a line of The Fairy", all four of them. I will plant other flowers and stuff in between, but the purpose is to bring some color there, and to create a bit of a barrier between the alley and the yard. Behind those, I'm probably going to put in some foxglove, not sure of the colors yet. I may put down some (more) lavender (Goodwin Creek is my favorite lavender), and some catmint and periwinkle as filler, too.

And the last bit of news...all my sweet peas have sprouted, and will be looking for a home pretty quick in the garden somewhere. Same thing with the Hollyhock seeds I started at the same time. My delphineums have not sprouted, nor have the foxglove, so I'll try them again.

As for the rest of the roses, I'm not positive yet where they go. I'm totally and completely sure I'll figure it out...I have general ideas, but nothing's set in stone aside from the plans above.

And, I have my coldframe and a 3'x6'x1' raised bed kit being delivered today...the raised bed will have some veggies in it and be in the back yard, and the coldframe will go right outside my kitchen door, where all my homeless and/or failing to thrive plants go.

I am **so** an addict...but most addicts are not having nearly as much fun as I am. YAY. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Hey...not my fault!

I still have not been down to Otto's

But a Mumstead is on my wish list, but the real reason for me to go would be:

5g Semi Dwarf Red Baron Peach
5g Semi Dwarf Santa Barbara Peach.

I want a couple of other fruit trees, but am debating if I want to deal with fruit that close to the street (temptation for fence hoppers and mess to clean up if the tree gets big enough to drop fruit there) or if a Ginko and a Red Bud would be easier in the long run.

I think what I REALLY need to do is sit down and plot the whole yard out


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RE: New, need help

LOL, Kippy, yes it is your fault. If I'd've not known about Otto and Sons, I never would have thought...well, heck, I can get these roses *now*. And a sale? Yeahbob, I'm so in. LOLOL.

Besides, if I blame you now, you'll also be given credit when everything looks like an english cottage garden. And I can also blame you on my weight loss because of getting out into the garden and getting things done. "Blame", in that case, is not at all a negative thing.

As far as placement goes, I have to say one of the reasons I chose Eden for the front fence is that it has no scent. It's a gorgeous, gorgeous rose, and is definitely a keeper for many reasons, but it got placed on the front fence because it doesn't have a scent. I have far too many dog walkin', school-goin', exercising neighbors to be able to keep a scented rose looking good on the front fence, you know? As it is now, when Eden is in bloom, I get folks stopping and admiring, but no random picking occurs. I don't mind that so much, but it so damages the stems if you don't use clips...

So yes, sit down and plot things out. I did that (about 20 different times), and still haven't gotten satisfied that I've figured it all out. LOL. But it sure helps to have a "map" on hand, especially when I'm getting 17 (ish) bushes delivered...I need to know where to tell the guys to put them. LOL.

So take the time to map things out. It helps. I also have a "Big Chore" list that I work on daily...it gives me directions as to what to transplant and where, what to take down (e.g the tree branches from today), what soil amendments have happened and what needs to happen, and so on. Like a big "To Do" list, but only as concerns the garden. It has helped keep me on track, and keep me from doing things (or not) that I'd regret later. KWIM?

Anyway, next Tuesday is the day I get the roses. Whoo hooo!

And thanks, Kippy. My garden is going to look fantastic thanks to your recommendation of Otto and Sons. I spent quite a few hours with them on the phone in the last week or so, choosing roses, getting good advice, and just talking about my garden designs in general. They were all *exceedingly* nice and helpful. So thanks, Kippy. I really do appreciate the recommendation a lot.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

I have taken a few trips down there, I try and remind myself that with the size of their plants, I can only fit 3 or 4 in the back of the truck.

I took my mom down there and she was amazed at the variety, she rarely goes to a nursery other than to buy veggie starts or seeds.

You have a few that I wish I had! The lady down the street has The Fairy on the street side of her fence and they do really well with very little care. I was looking back at some photos from the spring, one that stood out was Distant Drums. And I have looked at Gruss an Aachen a few times.

Hopefully I can get a trip in to pick up a couple next week. Gotta love a sale!


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RE: New, need help

There's something that happens with Distant Drums. I looked at it a few months ago, and said, "meh, no...". And then again about a month ago. This time, it was more, "well, pretty darned unique, I must say." And then last week, researching, I thought again about DD, and said "YES!" It's a rose that grows on you, I suspect...it's different in it's presentation of blooms, very water-lily like. The colors are...strange, but they work well together.

I got excited when I saw it on Otto's live list...

As for actually going there, I don't dare. If I did, I could NOT take my wallet, checkbook, or credit card. I don't think I'd even take my phone, for fear of making an instant transfer over the phone. LOL.

I have two cars - a Honda S2000, which is a two seater convertible, and a 2002 Camry 4 door. I have lots of experience loading either car full of stuff for horse shows and barn needs, and it's utterly amazing what I can fit in them...and how much.

However, they would be the one and only reason I would be able to stick with a budget...because it would be tough to cart 17 5 gals. in a Camry, no matter how nicely I packed things. LOL.

Yes, do get a trip in...it's worth it. And it's a SALE!!

I hope The Fairy is as tough and productive as they say; the spot I've chosen for it is less than ideal, so I'm really hoping they'll do well. Gruss an Aachen will be at the driveway side of my front rose bed, near where I'm taking the Queen Elizabeth out (transplanting). They're short enough so that you can see into the center of the bed (unlike the Queen Lizzy...), but tall enough to hide any leggy growth that some bushes have. And the color will compliment a lot of the flowers I'm going to be putting in...

Anyway, I'm off for the night. There is a lot - LOT - of work to do before the plants get here. While I know they don't need to get into the ground ASAP, but still, I want to get things ready. Lots of shoveling and raking and digging...and with the sweet rain we had today, it will be far softer and easier to work than it has been.

And I need to get the veggie bed set up for winter veggies, as well as the cold frame set up in the kitchen garden. So a lot of work starting tomorrow...and how nice it will be.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

I had a yard man once who "pruned" my Red Cascade, just as it was getting to a good size. Red Cascade is a climber. He pruned it from 6' to about 6", taking all of the canes off. He didn't understand why I was upset. It didn't recover from that. He also pulled up a shasta daisy, thinking it was a weed because it wasn't blooming. The list is endless. I don't allow the person who mows now to do anything to any plants. Mow and weed eat where I tell him to, and that's it.


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RE: New, need help

Eahmael, I am just thankful that my guys didn't do that to the Eden...I would have had to trim *them* to 6 inches, and see how well they'd've come back. LOL.

Michael, I wasn't ignoring you...I lost a post! I thought I had responded to your help, but it never showed. I'm sorry. I will try to recreate it here.

MichaelG said:
"Partial sun for roses means 6 (maybe 5) hours of direct sun from May through August. Sun angles have changed by this time of the year, and most spots have reduced hours of sunlight now. Or 50/50 dappled shade all day can also be OK.
Roses described as "shade tolerant" can bloom with 4 to 5 hours of sun. These may include roses with multiflora heritage, such as hybrid musks (Kathleen) and multiflora ramblers (Veilchenblau) might be good for the spot you describe."

Excellent description, thanks SOOO much. It's fairly heavy shade, that spot. My biggest problem has been already dealt with - a loquat tree which had grown from seed, never been pruned, and gave me over 400 pounds of fruit early this year. After it fruited (I have loquat jam coming out of my ears...and all my neighbors were invited to a loquat gathering. LOL), I had it trimmed waaaaaaaay back, and now light has been getting there.

My biggest current problem is the cryptosporidium tree which is about 60 feet tall. I had it trimmed wayyyy back also, and am getting a lot of dappling in the front part of the area now. It still, however, is quite the tall canopy (and is a gorgeous tree, frankly...just needed to be thinned and cleared out).

I also need to get UP in the bushes and get them thinned out. That will allow a lot of light to come in, and it will help me out. Once I do that (probably sometime this week), I will be able to start really working the soil, clearing the ground and turning the dirt, amending and making things happier.

Here's the issue with this spot. It is about 7 feet wide, maybe 6.5 feet. It is the border between my lawn and the alley that borders the house on the north side. Before I got to working on it, there were some shrubs that grew in a hedge about 5 feet tall near the lawn, and a ton of different trees and bushes line the alley side. It's a great buffer for noise and allowed for privacy. A lot of privacy.

I decided I needed to open it when I discovered that a homeless person was living between the shrub/hedge. I found his life detritus, including numerous alcohol bottles, clothing, human waste, several bongs and meth stuff...and several needles. So I had HazMat come out and clear the area, and then I took down the shrubs. Now there is no hidey-hole, and I haven't found any further evidence of homeless folk camping out. Thank God.

But it still remains a partial jungle. I have a lot of work to get done there, but that's not too hard to do...just time consumptive physical stuff.

My desire is to put some thorny, mean, shade tolerant roses in a hedge in the middle of this area. I will have to run irrigation in, but that's really not hard...some drip irrigation and maybe a soaker hose, and voila.

the goal is to make this unfenced "crossing" far less appealing and far more painful than it currently is.

I looked at your two suggestions, and while Vechinbleu (I totally blew the spelling) is interesting, I am not too fond of it.

I'm thinking that if I put 4 "The Fairy" bushes in front, and then two Sea Foams in back, they will weave together eventually and make it terribly unpalatable to come through.

I also have a very big, very old, bougainvilla in the corner, a bright happy magenta. The Bougie is about 15 feet tall, and about 8 feet wide, and handles the corner (and goes up into the roof in one spot). So that corner is handled...but I've got that stretch which needs some changes.

Since Fairy is a polyantha, I figured it might do better in that area than anything else. I may find a different rose for the back part, instead of the Sea Foam (which can go elsewhere).

Anyway, those are the issues I'm struggling with in that area.

Again, I'm sorry I was delayed in responding. I hadn't noticed my response had not posted...but I hope the above explains more thoroughly what my problems are, and what the goal is...and maybe, what an answer will be.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Just as a note...I indulged and got some Palatine Roses today. I wanted to get a PJPII for my neighbor (she loves mine) and put it into a planter and add some Goodwin Creek lavender for her Christmas present...and the only place I could find it was Palatine.

So, I got the PJPII for her. And I got 2 Lion's Fairy Tale and 2 Angel Veranda for myself. They'll ship out on 11/19, so I'll get them sometime shortly thereafter. I'll pot up my neighbor's rose and give it to her at Christmas, and by then I'll have actually figured out where the Lion's and the Angel Verandas will go. LOL.

NO MORE. I've got so many roses coming in, and I can't wait to put them all in...I spent 4 hours this morning in the garden, turning soil, trying to loosen soil, working up a serious sweat. I LOVED it...but according to my surgeon, I need to remember that I'm still officially recovering. LOL.

I also put in some foxgloves, stock, pansies, snapdragons, and a few salvia. I have to divide the East Friesland salvia I received recently, and then I'll get it in, too. I also put in about 15 calla lilies, but pooped out before I got to the iris, ixia, freesia, and ranunculus.

My lavender cuttings are not doing as well as I'd hoped they'd do, so I may cut a few more and try it differently. OTOH, I've had nearly 100% germination of about 25 hollyhocks and an equal number of sweet peas, so I'll have to get those wee plugs into the ground shortly.

And, I planted out some veggies for the winter - some lettuce and peas.

LOL...if my surgeon saw me doing this, he'd understand why I get so tired and sore. Just wait until I get those roses from Otto and sons...talk about marathons. That one will go for days...LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Yikes, I don't believe I've seen anyone become this seriously addicted so soon, lol!

Sounds like it's going to be gorgeous, and will definitely keep you out of trouble, with the upkeep!!


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RE: New, need help

The guys sound nice but inexperienced. Why would they think new growth in your area would be damaged by cold in October? Now maybe beaten up by santa ana winds where I am is a possibility. I don't think you will have a freeze this soon in the LA area. Do you live in/on the foothills? I remember a freaky freeze in the pasadena area in Jan or Feb a while back but those are really rare. Cutting the roses just makes them put out new growth which would be again cut off by the gardeners. The rose has only so much food stored in the canes to keep putting out growth.

If the guys over feed any tiny roses that could cause a problem worse than cold. Most newly planted roses in our warm winter area will go to work growing roots all fall/ winter and not so much in the leaves and canes. Don't think they aren't doing something because they are and you can't see it. Come mar/apr 2013 you will see the tops grow rapidly.
You will have to work with your guys and hopefully all will be well.


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RE: New, need help

There a two versions of the fairy out and about. One stands up and the other sprawls low. You will have to see which one you get. The other rose will probably overrun your fairys if you plant too close together.

I had kids drinking and smoking on the corner of my garden and leaving trash. A sprinkler on a random timer took care of the trouble.


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RE: New, need help

OG, I've been obsessed with roses for many years, just never have had an area to plant in. The place I came from was a duplex, with no real landscaping, just "stuff". I had a 2x4 area of blank nothingness, and put in lavender, a Blue Girl, and a Heart o' Gold...but there was nothing else I could do there.

I have always loved roses...but until I moved here, I haven't really allowed myself to "get happy" with the roses. I saw Eden growing down the block, no tag, nothing...so I came here, and then over to HMF, and ID'd it. This was last May...got several plants, including three Edens, but then got fairly ill, and was unable to do much but dream...

So now, I have time, the cash (although I'm spending waaay too much right now...), and most of the time enough energy to do what I want to do with the rose garden and other areas.

No, not newly addicted. Just finally have a chance to indulge and explore and have fun. And I am having fun. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

No, Kitty, I'm not in an area where freezes happen. Shoot, we may get one for a few hours once a year, if that. So I don't know what they were doing...other than wonking my poor Eden.

They're not going to touch the roses, won't feed them, won't cut them...only blow them out and/or weed the area. *If*, that is, they remember. But I'll be reinforcing things...

As for which Fairy I'll get, I'm not sure I understand. The listing for them on Otto and Sons call them a "groundcover", and gives the measurement of 2 high x 3 wide x 3 spread...I'm hoping that's the one I get.

But can you explain more fully, when you have a minute? I'd really like to understand it, so I can see and handle any issues when they arise.

If there was an auto sprinkler that reached over there, I'd use the random on-spray frequently. But I don't have autos there...I will say I've seen no new evidence of "campers" since I took down the hedge...so the lack of privacy (and it was very private...and weatherproof. No rain could get there at all...) and the apparent ownership change (someone taking an interest in that area) seem to have gotten through. And no one really walks through the yard...I just don't want anyone in that particular area, and since it's not fenced, it's easy access...I am hoping to change that with rose bushes.

Thanks! (Have I said lately how much I adore this forum? LOL)

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Hi herding cats,
I've really been enjoying this thread and getting some useful info at the same time. I thought I'd pass on what I know about Fairy roses. I've never heard of the sprawling kind either, but I had a hedge of fairies several years ago and each rose was about three feet (two feet tall sounds a little short) by three feet with a spread of three feet. It didn't take long for the the bushes to grow into one continuous hedge of really nasty brier. A UPS man found out the hard way one snowy winter when he attempted to charge across the snow covered hedge just as I yelled a desperate warning to stop him. I think your Fairy hedge would work nicely to deter squatters (and hopefully, no UPS men).
I also have a tip about hollyhocks which I've grown for years all over the place. Just throw out the seed on the beds where you want to grow them in late fall, and again in late winter (you don't need to cultivate or do anything fancy--I don't even water them!). Don't bother with starting hollyhocks indoors. You will have waves of hollyhocks coming up by the end of June, and they'll keep on coming. They'll reseed, but you can easily gather more seed than you'll ever need. Just make sure the seedpods are dry before you put them in a plastic bag for storage. Crush the pods in the bag when you're ready to sow. The seeds will fall out easily. Sprinkle your gathered seed everywhere the hock stands seem thin and in additional beds you want them to grow in. You'll never have to buy another seed again, and you'll always have hollyhocks. Try to get a type of hock that blooms the first year. I love the fluffy double ones, and they've always bred true. I've gifted lots of friends, and even the woman who edges my yard, with the seeds. Everyone loves to get those seeds, and they often ask for them. Diane


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RE: New, need help

Diane, thanks so much! That is exactly what I'm hoping to be able to create...a barrier of pretty flowers. Good to hear your experience. No, the delivery guys don't use anything but the driveway...so it will be only those folks who are not welcome who may encounter some owies.

When you say spread of 3 foot, what do you mean? I think what you mean is that it forms an area of coverage (for lack of a better word) that's three feet in circumference...as for the 2 foot being short, I'm fine if it wants to grow larger.

And thanks so much for the tips on the hollyhocks. I did start them this way, but will scatter sow them from here on. LOL, they're fertile little buggers, aren't they? I have been doing the seeds which bloom the first year, and some of them are doubles, so it should be a very pretty background for the rest of my garden. And thanks for the tips on the storage and gathering of the seeds...I will put it to good use.

Today's plan is lots of garden work...getting ready for the delivery on Tuesday of the herd of roses. I'm excited...

Best
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Start a new thread tuesday when the new roses arrive. I know your going to be excited when they show up.


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RE: New, need help

LOL, yes, Kitty, I sure will. This thread is growing like I hope my roses do - fast, fruitful, and exciting. LOL.

I spent literally 45 minutes staring at one spot in the garden, and have come to the conclusion that this will be a "pink" bed. It's right up on the house, gets great exposure, and is on the inside part of the walkway coming from the drive to the front door.

I shovel pruned two roses from this bed this morning...both were a) old, b)suckered mightily, and c) unknown as to what they are. I have to transplant two or three existing roses from here, the Queen Lizzy, a Midas Touch, and a Mr. Lincoln. Midas Touch will go on the other side of the walkway, but the other two will go into the back yard. Not sure exactly where yet, but they'll have a nice home.

What I'm going to plant there are the Distant Drums, New Zealand HT, St. Cecilia, Fragrant Plum, either the Gruss or the Wildeve, and in the back at the corner of the house will go Zephirine Druhin climber. I am leaving the PJPII at the front corner, and the Betty White there just above the PJPII.

On the other side of the walkway, I've already got PJPII in a 1/2 barrel, Radiant Perfume, and a Peace. I'm going to put Midas Touch there, and Soft Whisper (bi-color like Peace) at the end of the walk nearest the door.

And that's for the front. I haven't quite figured out the rest of the placement, but I know The Fairy will go on that one stretch, and the rest will probably head into the back yard. I have one climbing CP Margareta which will go in the drive on the chimney, but other than that, I don't know yet.

There is one area in the back which will have the Sea Foam at the back, and then the Teasing Georgias in front of that, and then something low but I'm not sure which it will be yet. That's near the stretch of blue agapanthas that have habituated there, so I think that would look really, really pretty...the blue then yellow then white.

LOL, yes, Kitty...I'm quite excited. And every plan will change, according to the whim of the moment. However, I did a search and some of Papu's photos came up...and then I saw more of Hoov's...I've got quite the dream in my head. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Hi again,
By the spread of a Fairy rose, I mean its diameter. If you imagine a square of 3'X3', a mature Fairy rose would just fit inside the square and touch the square's perimeter all the way around it. Of course, this is an approximation, and in your warm climate, the Fairy could get bigger!
All your hard work has given me some incentive (lacking this time of year) to get out and start digging up some stuff that needs to be removed instead of waiting to do everything in spring. I do need to wait on most of the roses till late winter and all are dormant for any transplanting (a great excuse for laziness).
Can't wait for your new thread to start. Best of luck on the hollyhocks. Diane


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RE: New, need help

Diane, my gardens have been neglected for decades. There is a ton of stuff to do, include cutting down some branches, preparing beds, softening ground, and running irrigation to some areas that haven't had water aside from rain in decades. I don't believe your beds are nearly in as dire straits as mine are. So no guilt...deal? I'm just decades behind, is all. LOL.

thanks for the clarification. I've got two bare root Lion's Fairy Tale roses coming in the end of November (they said start shipping 11/19). The height listed is 3-4 foot, so the "wide-ness" would be three feet in every direction, yes?

That would work nicely in the desert area in the back...underplanted by Angel Veranda, and backed by a Crown Princess Margareta or something else (LOL, that's my brain..."something else").

I suspect things will get bigger here than other places...I'm zone 9/Sunset 20,and I've done some reading where it says that one should count on double the size of the tag statements.

Which, frankly, is a tad alarming. For example, I can't decide if I'm going to put Gruss or Wildeve in the front bed. Both are supposed to stay around 3 feet tall, but I don't know if that's true.

Does anyone know the final (mature) size of Gruss or Wildeve in my zone? I don't want to repeat the mistake of having a large bush in front of shorter ones...my Queen Lizzy is the mistake I mean. She shoots canes up to 7-8 feet tall, and is on the front edge of the bed...LOL. She's getting put into the back on a fence where she can reach for heights unknown without an issue...but I don't want to have to transplant again if I don't have to.

So, final size on Gruss and Wildeve? And on Distant Drums?

Thanks...

Best-
Herding Cats

PS: I read somewhere that threads are closed at 100 posts...so Kitty, I may end up starting another one sooner than Tuesday. LOL.


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RE: New, need help

I am not the one to tell you who gets tall and who doesn't My Queen Lizzy is in the front of the bed too-lol. Only mine has never gotten any taller than 3 feet. She was with the Golden Celebration that does nothing, the sad Sheer Bliss and St Patrick. So I think that has more to do with the source of the plants at this point.

I realized the beautiful rose I took pictures of this spring that had covered a 6' fence panel at the music academy is probably cpm Makes me think I should get one to cover a fence panel too.


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RE: New, need help

Otto has plenty of CPM, Kippy. LOL. (I know, I'm totally enabling, but turn about is fair play. LOLOL just teasing...).

And yes, CPM is a gorgeous rose, and definitely one that will cover a panel, from what I've read and seen. I've got two coming, and they are slated for the back yard on a south-facing wall. I hope they grow like I've read, because that wall is an old fence and I'm not going to replace it soon...so I'd like to cover it.

I'm sorry to hear about your roses' heights. I will say that my Lizzy has, quite literally, scared me at times with her height. LOL, I didn't understand the first thing about roses when I put her in for my Dad, 15 years ago or so (maybe 20 now...). He loved her there, but she needs to be in a place where she can just let loose and see how high and wide she will go. In thinking about things, I'm fairly sure that the nursery I bought from uses Otto and Sons...so this was probably one of theirs.

I'll miss her screaming heights in the front yard, but I'll be able to see her in the back...

I am leaving room for two Heart o' Golds in the back yard...I adore that rose - it's color, it's height (like Lizzy for me), it's presence...so I'm going to make sure that there is room for two Heart O' Golds back there somewhere.

But other than that, *my* fall flush is coming to a close...I've bought all the roses I can possibly handle; I suspect some will remain in pots for a few months, as I get the ground prepared and fertile enough to give me bloooms and lush growth. But since the front is mostly done in terms of soil, it's just a matter of repeating things in the back.

Of course, the back is worse. LOL.

Come Tuesday, I'll be overjoyed and quite intimidated at the same time. LOL...lots of work in the next 4 weeks or so, but after that, it's just maintaining things and letting nature take her course.

I hope.

LOLing at me. I'm such a newbie.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Hi yet again,
I think we may have been talking about two different kinds of roses. I thought you were referring to a rose, still popular, that dates back to about 1930 called The Fairy. It's a polyantha and no relation to Kordes' roses called the Fairy Tale Series. The Fairy is the one I had as a small hedge and is very thorny, growing together to form a brier. The Fairy blooms in sprays and each little bloom is about one inch.
Now The Fairy Tale Series of roses are from the German hybridizer Kordes. Your Lion's Fairy Tale rose is from that series. I'm not sure of its size.I do have Kordes' Sisters Fairy Tale rose also called Home and Garden. It's about the same size as The Fairy, but I don't think it would make a good hedge. I'm sorry for the confusion. The Fairy, as I've said, would make an excellent thorny hedge. I would go with that one not the Kordes roses, for the hedge. Diane


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RE: New, need help

Yes, Diane, it's the polyantha Fairy, from the early 19th century...and yes, it's a "mini" inasmuch as the blooms are tiny. The goal is indeed to have it grow together and form a brier, and hopefully discourage any interlopers.

And yes, I'm getting the Kordes Lion's Fairy Tale, but those are bigger and for the backyard.

I got 4 of The Fairy, but am thinking I may need one or two more. Do you know it's growth habit? How large/long they can go? They're supposed to be more able to grow in part sun, and that's the area...part sun, and on the low side of part sun, at that.

Thanks...I really appreciate your help, and everyone's help. YAY for this board!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

I have had both versions of "the Fairy". Somewhere through the years and being grown all over the world, two or more versions of this rose exist. I got the upright version from Wayside a long time ago and saw the lower, spreading version and finally got one. I forget where. The low version shoots out horizontal canes like a groundcover and a few taller arching canes but does not build a small upright shrub the way my Wayside Fairy did. The flowers were the same.

My Kordes Fairytale roses have been very large plants indeed and I have been impressed with how disease free they are. I have Lion's, Cinderella, and Pomponella fairy tale. All took a while to get going, but are now going strong. If you get any of these from Palatine, remember that the rootstock they use doesn't really like our alkaline clay based soil. I grew mine in 15 gallon cans until they produced their own roots and then planted them out in the garden. When I decided to move another rose I had bought from Palatine, I saw that the rootstock was almost completely gone. Fortunately, all the roses have done extremely well as own rooted plants. Palatine has a great selection of hard to get goodies.

I agree about Queen Elizabeth. I got the pale pink sport of Queen Elizabeth and it's even taller and bloomier!


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RE: New, need help

Kitty, can you explain more about the Palatine roses? I had read that multiflora did not do terribly well in our soil here, but I had planned on acidifying it some.

When you say you grew them in 15 gal cans (which I have, no problems there), "until their own roots grew", can you explain that a bit more? Did you bury the rootstock underneath the soil, and treated them like own-root bare-root bands (if there is even such a thing?)

I am getting 2 Lions, 2 Angel Verandas, and one PJPII from them. The PJPII will be potted up and given to my neighbor, but the other four will be the ones I have here. The Veranda ones will only get 1.5-2 foot tall, so I was considering leaving them in pots. But I had hoped that I could get the Lions in the garden itself.

So, if you have the time and the patience, would you go further into detail about how to get grafted bare roots to go own root? And how would I achieve this?

As for The Fairy, I'll end up with whatever kind the bush is. LOL, I thought about calling Otto's this morning to find out about it, but realized if I did, I was more than likely to add even more roses to the list. There are some Pilgrims that are crying out to me across the interwebs, you see...

So, as with the first step in any addiction, realization you have a problem is the first step. I didn't call. LOL.

Thanks soooo much. I *really* appreciate the help and the time all of you are taking with me. It's quite heartening. :-)

I'm outta here for the night...bad headache and feeling a bit worn out, so I'm heading to bed early. Tomorrow will be a hot, hot day, so I need to get all the gardening I've planned done early, so I can bring the puppies into the house and stay in the cool during the afternoon heat.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Hi Herding,
It's me again. I have quite a few roses from Palatine and they are all grafted onto multiflora rootstock which supposedly doesn't like to grow in alkaline soil, which I have (and you probably do, too). Some of my Palatine roses don't seem to be affected by this much, and others have done less well. I've found that using fertilizer for acid loving plants and Hi-Yield soil acidifier with sulfur, iron, and nitrogen help a lot. I haven't planted any of my Palatine roses in cans--just directly into the soil. It's thought that burying the graft union (the knot) below grade an inch or two will help the roses grow their own roots and not depend on the multiflora rootstock.
The roses in my Fairy hedge were all about three feet by three feet when they merged together to form the hedge. I was glad to learn that you had the old Fairy roses coming for the hedge.
Have a good rest. Diane


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RE: New, need help

Morning, Diane and everyone.

I did have a good sleep - coupled with lots of snuggles from the kitties and the dogs, I slept very well. Headache is minimal this morning; some music while I garden, which makes me dance in the sun, will help the headache far better than any other analgesic. The neighbors worry about me, but who cares...LOL.

Yes, according to the listing on Otto and Sons, the Fairy I have is the old 1930's polyantha. I am going to plant them about 2.5-3 foot apart, and hope that they merge and create that barrier. I am also going to be putting in some other shrubs and bushes in the area, and maybe that will combine to deter anyone from crossing.

I will definitely use acid-loving fertilizer in the areas of the Palatines. I have two blueberry bushes, and they need acid, too, so it's not a big deal for me to put it down on the roses. Do you have a recommendation for the fertilizer? I've read good things about Vigoro, but don't know much about things like that. All I know is that initially, no high nitrogen, as the plant needs to expand it's root system, and nitrogen works on the top. I have Rose Tone, Neptune's Harvest fish emulsion, and Miracle Gro (although I don't really want to use that one). So, any suggestions and/or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

I will bury the graft union...that's something which has been a problem for me in the past, apparently. When I put the few roses in for Dad years ago, I followed the instructions to not bury the graft, but to have it above the soil line (or, at least that's what I recall).

Consequently, all the old roses here have graft unions on top of the shaft, which seems to have grown up quite a bit, in one case about 4 inches. Now, it may have been poor planting on my part (I have NO problem admitting that), but it's left some roses with a serious need for replanting. Sigh. But the worst - the Midas Touch - is going to be transplanted anyway.

I will be burying all of the existing rose bushes over the next few weeks. That way, at least I'll be able to give them some help.

Honestly, although my memory may indeed be faulty, I *thought* and remembered putting the union at the soil level. I wonder, then, if there isn't something under that lifts the union up. We don't freeze, thus no heave...so it's not that. But maybe a big root or something. Dunno.

And it doesn't matter why, in the end...I just need to replant. That I can do.

It's supposed to get to 104* today, so I'd best get into the gardens now, and take advantage of the morning coolness. I hope everyone has a fantastic Sunday, and gets to dance in the sun in their rose gardens...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, need help

Of course, it had to get hot early. Sigh. I started at about 8:30, and came in at 12:15 or so...

Before the heat chased me inside, I managed to free the Eden Climber that had been in a pot since I got her about 1.5 years ago. I had estimated that her canes were about 4 foot, but no...they are taller than I am, and I'm 5'7". I armed myself by watching Paul Zimmerman's video on transplanting a rose, and followed his advice. She also got about an hour's worth of trickling water. I'm pleased and have good hopes for her...she had an enormous rootball, and tons of those little webbie feeder things, and most of that came to the new home complete. She's not showing any droop yet, although I do expect her to. Still, she's been moved, and her canes loosely tied down to the fence, and she will look fantastic there if all goes well.

Then, because it had to be done, I transplanted Midas Touch from the bed to the walkway; it's showing drooping already. It's roots were not in good shape at all. I honestly expect I'll lose this one. Which doesn't make me too sad...it's a pretty rose, but I'm not attached to it like I am Eden. (And I have no idea why I'm attached to my Edens...but I am)

And then, just because I wasn't already too hot, sweaty, tired, and lightheaded (or so I told myself. LOL), I went ahead and put Soft Whisper into the ground, too. I had to remove the Double Delight, and decided I couldn't bear to SP, so it's soaking in a bucket of water and I'll pot it up tomorrow. I don't know if it will survive; it certainly has not done well where it was, and that is prime rose real estate. It, too, has a poorly developed root system, so we'll see what happens. I won't miss it, to be honest...it's a cool rose, and great fragrance, but it's done sooo poorly that I think I'd probably have better luck with something else.

I have come to the conclusion that I will not be ready for the delivery on Tuesday, but I will be as ready as I can be. I will have a pot ghetto, but over the next month or 6 weeks, I'll be able to get things into the ground.

I also marked out the places for the Distant Drums, Fragrant Plum, New Zealand HT, Wildeve or Gruss in the front bed, and, in the backyard, have selected Queen Lizzy's new home.

I also culled some of the agapanthas (they've been there for 20 years, totally naturalized)...only removed two parts of the beds to make room for some roses. I also freed some bricks from the old, defunct, laundry yard (which is no longer in existence; and yes, there are more bricks there to uncover and move, too...)and moved the bricks into the driveway. They will go toward making "raised beds" of a sort, in the front yard by the fence, to keep water and soil from washing away under the fence (it's an old post and rail fence...and I constantly lose soil to the sidewalk).

I was going to take down some hedges under the front window, but ran out of steam. I may ask my gardeners to do that...just clear the whole area of ivy (sigh...) and the hedges. I'll put some things in pots there, and see how things go. It's west facing, so I'm not sure that roses will do well there...so I'll leave them in pots and see if they do all right. If not, well...I'll move them.

Gak. There's so much to do...and I just am not going to get it done in time. Oh well. The roses can stay in pots for a while...

Phew. I'm tired. Overheated and tired. But content. Lots of progress...I won't be able to move my body in a few hours, but a lot of progress has been made.

And, at the bottom of this post, is a link to the new post..."New, Need Help: The Saga Continues."

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Herding Cats

Here is a link that might be useful: The New Post...


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