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Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

Posted by Alwayzbgrateful 8 (My Page) on
Sun, Oct 13, 13 at 2:10

I was out at a local nursery today and they had "new rose plants " they were trying to promote. Apparently the plant had at least five different varieties grafted onto one single rootstock. I asked the nursery owners all the following questions, but they couldn't give me any answers. BUT this is coming from the same place I asked what book or article they best recommended to novice rose gardeners for identifying different foliar diseases, especially the ones commonly confused with(and or referred to as) black spot. Their answer, you ask?? "Its blackspot, not BLACK SPOTS if you have black spots on your leaves, then you know what it is. Its not rocket science" (Yea I know) Anywhoo, back to my question. Is it possible to grow several diff varieties on one rootstock without difficulties a raising? Wouldnt one or two types take over ? Over time will the plant use more energy trying to accommodate so many grafts? This is the first time I've ever seen anything like this so im just curious about the effects on the plant.
Thank you all for your help!
Have a blessed day
Lyna♥


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

  • Posted by curdle 9b, Australia (My Page) on
    Sun, Oct 13, 13 at 3:39

How weird !..
I 've seen duo type grafted standard (tree) roses here at Bunnings (the ones I saw were on sale in the lead up to St Valentines day), and there's an on line nursery that offers them during bare root season. They're usually red/ white , often Europeana/ Iceberg mix.

But 5 different roses seems a bit excessive...


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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

Hi Lyna, you can graft (or bud, virtually the same thing) as many types on one stock as there is room. It's done all the time for flowering trees, stone fruit, even citrus. And, yes, the potential for one type being more vigorous and crowding the others out exists. That's why it is important to match the strength (vigor) and eventual size of the types grafted together as well as possible so the results are as successful and pleasing as possible. What works quite well are usually color sports such as Iceberg and Pink or Burgundy Iceberg as they have generally the same size and growth habit. Mary Rose and its color sports make very attractive combinations on standards. Putting multiple varieties on the same stock produces a novel result, which is pretty much why it's done.

For diseases, the internet is probably your best bet. There are numerous sites on line which have excellent photographs of them. The link below will take you to Baldo Villegas' site. Baldo is our recently retired California State Entomologist. He lists many diseases and pests with photographs and suggested remedies for them. Once you know the names of the various diseases, it's easy to search them on line to find other illustrations and remedies. And, of course, you will likely get quite a few other suggested sites from this thread. You won't be hamstrung by the book being out of date, or stuck with possibly insufficient illustrations as the internet is dynamic, constantly being updated. I hope it helps. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Baldo Villegas' site listing diseases, pests and much more.


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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Oct 13, 13 at 14:16

I've seen these multi-budded rose trees too but never on a bush plant. I suppose it really wouldn't matter though as long as like Kim said, they're compatible. But for me if I like a rose enough to get it I want the whole bush to be that rose and not just a piece of it. Particularly in my cold zone. What if one of the varieties wasn't winter hardy? I'd have a big hole in the bush! I think sometimes they get a little wacky with these ideas.


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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

  • Posted by jim1961 6a Central Pa. (My Page) on
    Sun, Oct 13, 13 at 15:02

Alwayzbgrateful,

This first pic is of Blackspot... (irregular shape/fringed edges)

 photo black20spot_zpsddf2fc32.jpg

This second pic is Cercospora leaf spot...

 photo Cercosporaleafspotonrose_zpsf3470e3e.jpg

This third pic is Spot anthracnose:
(Note: Spot anthracnose looks a bit like Cercospora...
But Spot anthracnose will develop a hole in the middle of the spots)

 photo anthracnose_zps57ec27fa.jpg

ANYBODY FEEL FREE TO ADD INFORMATION....


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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

Thank you so much for the link Kim! I really want to learn as much as I possibly can so if and when something does show up on our roses I wont be completely lost. Lol!
Curdle, I've also seen two roses grafted onto one root stock before but never so many.I think it looks kinda cool. (But I wouldn't buy one )
Thanks again!
Lyna


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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

You're welcome, Lyna. Learn to bud your own, it's easy! Then, you can make all the different "Island of Dr. Moreau" rose bushes you want, FREE! Kim


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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

Thank you Jim for the pics. I've always managed to thoroughly confuse myself when trying to determine the difference between blackspot and Anthracnose. The only way I can remember Cercospora, is from the hole it creates. Every time I've done a Google search of "blackspot" I've seen all three described as the same thing without any clues how to differentiate any of them. So again THANK YOU! for the pics and description. :-)

Kim, me ? Grafting? HA! I wish! ;-) I still can't figure out how to get rose cuttings to root, and believe me I've tried all different types with a million different methods at all seasons. But alas still no rooted cuttings :-(
Maybe one day, when I've figured out what in the world I'm doing wrong with cuttings will I muster the courage to try my hand at grafting. It absolutely terrifies me that I might mess up so bad I end up killing the whole plant!Lol;-)

Bless you all,
Lyna


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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

Lyna, so what if you kill the whole plant? Learning to root takes patience, practice and experimenting. If a method fails for you, determine why it didn't work; experiment with variations on the method to find what will make it work. If you continue failing with one method, try a new one and work that through. Fortunately, most root stocks root really easily, so perhaps you need to start with one or two of those to practice? If you kill one while budding it, so what? You aren't going to kill the plant you're taking buds from. If you happen to kill the rooted stock, oh, well. You should have others you've rooted to practice on. Besides, if you have any suckers on any grafted plants in your garden, you can easily practice budding on them while they are still attached to the original plant. Learn to make the buds take while you're learning to root cuttings. Even if you don't have suckers, you can easily practice budding on canes of other roses until you succeed. Yes, you might spread viruses by doing it, but you have to practice on something to learn.

It'll take a little time, but surely if you are really interested, you can carve out a bit to play with both goals? It's fun and it honestly is NOT that difficult, unless you wait to practice until you have something you REALLY want and feel likely never to find again. Whatever you decide, have fun with it. That's the main thing. Kim


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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

Thank you Kim for your encouraging words!!
To be honest I'm REALLY interested in rooting, grafting & starting from seed.
I realize I have a whole lot to learn, heck im still tryin to remember the diff diseases (lol!) But I've often found myself looking at all the roses leaves, buds, stems , flower petals I'm absolutely amazed at each plants "personality" .I've gotten a pretty good grasp on how to help the roses along when they need or when to stop "loving them to death" (lol) but for whatever reason when it comes to rooting cuttings I either end up with rotting stems or they shriveled up. Ive adjusted my soil accordingly , I no longer mist them, and I only water when the soil starts to dry out. I really dont know what in the world I'm doin wrong, but everything else I try to root (including hardwood cuttings) root in two wks or less, but not the roses. Of course that doesn't mean Im not gonna keep trying ;-) May I ask what methods you use for both rooting and grafting? Did you find rooting easier to learn or grafting? Preferred methods??
Thank you for all your help!!!!
Lyna

P.S.
Sorry if you've already answered these questions.


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RE: Multiple buds grafted onto one rootstock

You're welcome, Lyna! Yes ma'am, each one HAS its own personality. It's observing them then determining what other "personalities" you want to mate them to that's part of the fun of breeding.

If your cuttings are rotting, they're too wet. Whether that's due to too heavy soil, watering them too frequently or having too high humidity due to covering them, something is keeping them too wet, so they rot. If they shrivel, they're usually drying out. I'd not had success rooting roses in my new climate until I ran across the wrapping method, which I termed "Burrito Method" and detailed on my blog below. Like all the other methods, it requires tweaking to get it set just right for your specific conditions, but once you get the hang of it, the method works!

A few months ago, I received bud wood of a rose I'd sought, from a lovely lady in Northern California. The wood was quite thin and I didn't know what exactly I could do with it. I had stocks rooted, so I tried budding it, then took what wasn't really suitable and tried a modified method of rooting. It was actively growing, and it was warm, so the wrapping method wouldn't work. I treated them as I would any cuttings, then planted them very deeply in seed starter mix, in gallon cans and placed them under other potted roses where they would have higher humidity, some filtered sun, but protection from the real heat and extreme sun. Most failed, but a few ARE rooted! Many of the buds also failed, but some are remaining green after a few months and appear to be successful. I figured by planting them deep, so most of the cutting length was immersed in cool, damp soil, they wouldn't dry out. It's what I do with callused cuttings out of the wraps, and it works perfectly with them. With only an inch or so of cutting poking out of the soil, and only a leaf or two remaining on them, they could provide some photosynthesis to help carry them along until roots formed. Once it begins raining, I will transplant them from their communal pots, lifting them to the level I want them to grow. Until then, I'll let them continue forming roots. The rains will help to harden them off so they won't be lost to being subjected to too high heat, too brilliant sun and too dry conditions too quickly.

I'm also getting ready to break the tops of the root stocks so the foliage will remain attached to help keep them fed, but much of the sap flow will be interrupted so it is directed into the inserted buds, forcing them to begin growing.

I use both the traditional "T" budding method and Burling's Chip Budding Method on several different root stocks so I hedge my bet with whatever I have and want to insure takes. Using several methods helps spread the risk of loss so chances of success improve dramatically. I use VI IXL, Cardinal Hume and Sequoia's Pink Clouds. I should also obtain some VI Dr. Huey and VI Ragged Robbin. I had the Ragged Robin VI from the Heritage Rose Garden, but lost it. I also have Dr. Manner's VI Fortuniana. It's finally put out enough thicker growth to provide some decent stocks next spring, so I'll probably start messing with budding to it then.

If I have material I want to reproduce in the appropriate window here for rooting; I know it roots OK and grows OK own root; and it is of the appropriate condition for wrapping, I will wrap it. If it's summer, hence hotter (too hot for wrapping) and the material is actively growing, I'll try budding it. Whatever remains which isn't suitable for budding, I'll strike as cuttings to see if something works. But, if you wait until you have what you've been looking for, forever, to learn how to make the methods you want to use, work, you're guaranteed to fail. Murphy assures that. It's like waiting until the day before you take your world cruise to buy your new, elaborate camera you have absolutely no idea how to use. You're doomed.

Rooting and budding are about equally as easy to learn. The hardest part is determining you are NOT going to allow it to overwhelm you. If it doesn't work, don't get frustrated. Put on your diagnostician's hat, figure out WHY it didn't so you can fix the problems, then get back on that horse to show it who's boss. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Wrapping cuttings


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