If you have seen RRV before and know what it looks like, please advise me.

I know because my Mary M got it about four years ago and had nearly identical symptoms. Also in fall.

If it's own root, you could try to save the uninfected side; if it's grafted (as mine was) cutting off only the infected cane didn't work for me, as it came back with the new growth the next spring.

Any second opinions? I really hate to dig it out but don't want to infect any other roses.

Here's a quote from Pickering nursery: "We bud the majority of our roses on R. multiflora and the gallicas, damasks and some odds & ends on R. laxa." Vicky, the picture you posted is 100% RRD, my Mary Magdalene doesn't have that reddish new growth.

I removed an RRD rose in July, it has multiflora parentage, more susceptible to RRD. The previous rose in that spot for many years was a Knock-out, now still clean, I moved it a short distance away. So my RRD rose was infected at Home Depot, where I bought from. It was stingy in bloom, and I noticed the thorny basal shoot since last year, and it got progressively worse. One site advised NOT PLANTING anything there for 2 years, but with our winter in zone 5a, it could be less. I threw the plant & soil, and sprayed the entire area with Windex (very alkaline, kills ants too).

I was about to kill Lilian Austin today - she's thorny and poked me. She's own-root, very healthy, compact 1' x 1.5', flowers get huge with ruffles in second year. The scent is better on the bush than Ab. Darby. If you want Lilian Austin, I'll give you that plus Scepter'd Isle and Charles Darwin per our appointment March 25.

My kid wanted me to kill thorny Radio Times, but I keep that one for its damask scent. I'll move that today away from the house ... I buy low-thorn roses only for my kid's sake. I'll post the entire-bush shot of Lilian Austin taken today in HMF so you'll see how it looks like.

I have Queen of Sweden, can't be used a cut flower, it has more thorns than I expect. It has a great myrrh scent like Mary Magdalene. It takes partial shade well. You can have my Queen of Sweden, Lilian Austin, Scepter'd Isle, and Charles Darwin. All are 100% healthy, zero blackspot here. I already posted bush-shot pics of them in HMF. I'm making room for the thornless seeds I got from breeders in CA and Texas.

Strawberryhill, why are you discussing Roundup? No "weed and feed" product would contain Roundup. As an aside, your neighbor's damage will depend on the amount of Roundup taken up. At very low dosages it simply acts as a growth hormone (hormesis).
http://www.dose-response.org/news/Hormesis-review.pdf

Kind of off topic, but you shouldn't be using weed & feed 3 times a year. In the spring you need something with a pre-emergent control like halts (anything labelled for crabgrass control) to keep annual weeds from germinating. The only other time you should fertilize is in the fall and you should only use a weed and feed product if you have a widespread epidemic of broadleaf weeds and in my opinion, if you have this, you should probably use round up and start over from seed (It could be the result of not using a pre-emergent in the spring). If you have isolated weed issues, use a selective herbicide only on the weed areas. Don't spray weed killer over your entire yard to treat a few spots.

Just my 2 cents.

We have THE WORST dandelion infestation here. There's foreclosured house without lawn treatment and you'll see more dandelions than grass. My neighbor did everything you recommended, so did I for the past 12 years. None work except to do what professional lawn company does: broad-cast spreader with Scott's Weed & Feed, it's NOT A SPRAY, it's tiny whitish pellets, which got watetered in the grass.

Believe me, there's a place for everything. I lived in Michigan, Californnia, Connecticut, and many places in Chicagoland - I never did anything to the lawn until now.

"FAST FACTS - HERBICIDE DAMAGE"
.......
.......
Strange looking, thickened growth, often dark red or purple in color"
.......
Please note this is from a California Rose Society so the possibility that the red described above is from RRV by mistake is very low.
-----------------------------
In fact, according to one picture http://buggyrose.tripod.com/iabioticdisorders.htm it could be frost damage. Plus I suspect for zone 5 now it could be either RRV or herbicide damage AND frost damage.

----------------------------------------

I expect/hope that the availability of the specific Rose Rosette Virus test and the research now being done will allow future rose growers to be much more confident in their decisions.

My rose from Home Depot with RRD is the only one with multiflora parentage. It's BY ITSELF, since I spreaded black plastic around it early April to kill grass, to make a huge rose bed for next year. That rose is isolated with a border of 10 feet of plastic in all directions.

If it's a herbicide damage, or Scott's Weed-feed white pellets from my fertilizer-spreader, that rose gets none, since it's surrounded by 10-12 feet of black plastic & dirt.

My bed of 15 Austins got plenty of Weed-Feed pellets since it's next to my lawn. All are clean. Same with 6 Knock-outs and many roses in other beds, bordered by the lawn. None of my roses have RRD after I removed that multiflora-rose in July, with thorniess early April and got progressively worse.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. When I said spray, I didn't mean spray a fluid using a pump sprayer. I meant you're spraying a selective granular herbicide all over your yard. You didn't ask for lawn advice, so I'll leave you alone and let you fight the dandelions year after year.

Absent an analysis by a plant pathologist, what is a gardener to do? The answer, IMO, is this: Get that plant out of you environment immediately! Given the high probability that your 'Mary Magdalene' is RRD-infected, all roses in your garden at vastly increased risk -- not to mention roses who-knows-how-far-downwind from you.

Since we now have 2 roses in the same close area that have exhibited these symptoms, removing this rose probably will not remove the cause of the problem (infected rose up wind or Weed-and-Feed in water run off). The active ingredient of Weed-and-Feed is atrazine.

Atrazine is very water soluble. A law suit has recently been settled against the manufacture for the cost of removing atrizene from the drinking water supply.
http://www.bleedingheartland.com/diary/5545/atrazine-maker-to-settle-l awsuit-by-water-utilities

-------------------------------
A post seems to suggest that Weed-and-Feed run off water will not "infect" roses. Please see:
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/32/3/430.1.short

-----------------------------

I feel that as a professional it would be "highly irresponsible" if I did not comment on the use of Weed-and-Feed.

A number of countries have banned the use of atrazine.

The EPA is right now (since 2009) still reconsidering the registration of atrazine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/business/energy-environment/07water. html

http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/reregistration/atrazine/

-------------------------------------
See the following for some 2012 reviewed scientific articles:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/2t04410461u121p3/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570963912000611
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/22298924
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022347612009298
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147651312003004

----------------------------------
I recommend the use of the precautionary principle regarding the use of atrazine.
I am not alone - one example:

"The precautionary approach has been applied in Israel
in a number of recent policy decisions concerning EDCs,
including for example the ban on use of BPA in baby
bottles and the decision to severely restrict the use of
the herbicide atrazine. In the case of BPA, quantitative
risk assessments showed that little or negligible risk was
expected following normal use of baby bottles [39,40].
However, since there was considerable uncertainty
regarding the effects of low dose chronic exposure, evidence
of increased vulnerability in infants and children,
and available alternatives, the Ministry of Health
adopted a precautionary approach [41].
In addition, the Ministry of Health recently recommended
the ban of the herbicides atrazine and simazine
in Israel, based on concerns regarding possible effects on
reproduction and fetal development from chronic low
dose exposure via drinking water. In this case, current
levels of these herbicides in drinking water in Israel are
far below the Israeli Drinking Water Standard, suggesting
that there is negligible risk to the population. In fact,
the World Health Organization recently recommended
an increase in the drinking water standard in light of
evidence that atrazine is not carcinogenic in humans.
However, given emerging suggestive evidence of adverse
effects on reproduction and development at very low
levels of exposure, and given that there were available
alternatives, the Ministry of Health adopted a precautionary
approach."

The above is taken from:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/n61023222l055w50/

http://www.voanews.com/media/video/1248967.html

http://www.voanews.com/content/weed_killer/369797.html

Anyone who has seen both RU damage and RRD would never mistake one for the other.

My husband put some weed and feed on the lawn...would that possibly cause it? If that was the cause, would the rose likely overcome it and go on to be healthy?"

I wish I could understand how the damage works, and why we really need to take them out until we know what is damaged. For the mites to cross our property to these roses, they must pass several other roses. Does anyone know for sure how long the mites must infest the rose before the damage is apparent?

If only one cane is showing damage, do we really need to worry about other roses? If it is RU damage, would it continue?

About 8 years ago I dug up about 6 roses, and wondered later if they were really infected, or if it was RU.

Do you know a time frame for RU, and if so, do the symptoms continue? It seems like RU would show up after the spray, but would stop showing up if there were no more spray.

Sammy (who hates this subject)

For right now, the observations I made at a local, newly big box store will have to suffice. Potted up roses were moved on site 1 May for their grand opening. About two tenths of a mile away and upwind there was RRD infected multiflora along a fence line.

When I visited their rose collection the first or second week of June there were at least twenty roses with RRD. After I talked to their garden manager and then their store manager, I watched as they removed the sick roses to their dumpsters.

The following week, the state/ USDA inspectors visited the nursery where the roses had been potted up and grown to the point of blooming and could find no RRD in the crop still there, nor in the fields surrounding their greenhouses.

So, that will give you some time frame.

The similar Peach virus (vectored by a different eriophyid mite) was studied to find the accession time (time it takes for a mite to transmit the disease) and they found fifteen minutes of mite feeding was enough.

I personally think that 'shows symptoms' happens faster when the roses would 'naturally' grow faster, whether dependent on temperature, or on chemicals to spur growth. I also think there may be some major differences depending on the species roses the cultivated roses are descended from. (Specifically, roses that tend to go dormant-ish mid to late summer may not show as fast.)

Something else to watch for, now that frost is coming, if you are concerned about a specific cane, are there leaves that are much more susceptible to frost damage than others at the same stage of maturity. RRD does interfere (supposedly) with the conversion of sugars to starch..

H.Kuska comment. Of course the fence line multiflora could of been "sick" because they were sprayed with a herbicide and the 20 big box roses could of been sick also due to herbicide use. UNTIL, the rose rosette virus specific test is widely available these are examples of just "maybe".

-----------------------
Even in Ann's book she describes "infected" roses that did not pass the classic virus test - they did not pass on the virus by bud graphs.

" There are no laboratory tests to confirm a diagnosis of RRD; graft transmission tests can confirm the disease when the recipient plant (R. multiflora) develops RRD. A lack of transmission does not prove lack of the disease, just lack of transmission. Dr. Jim Amrine (personnal communication) suggests that graft transmission tests are more often successful in spring than in other seasons. This, to me, corresponds to the time that multiflora puts on most of its new growth (when its growth isn't affected by RRD)."

http://www.rosegeeks.com/id3.htm

----------------------------

Thus, there are reports of Rose Rosette Virus infection that are not confirmed. How many of the rose rosette virus reports that have been mapped actually were due to another cause? We do not know. I feel that we will have to start with a clean map once the virus test is available or at least only include the previous ones that were verified positive by the graft test (or use a different symbol for the "dots" for the unconfirmed reports).

Do I know what I'm talking about? Yes, we drive that fence line at least weekly and have for fifteen years.

Did the 'sick' multiflora I sent to Arkansas test positive for RRv? Yes, they did.

Henry, sometimes I wonder if you love roses or if you hate them. Why else would you encourage people to take chances with the roses in their gardens that have the potential to be both contageous and fatal. I am having real trouble respecting your observations.

Ann, no longer the least bit amused by your comments.

It ain't pretty -- but that's not what it looks like, really.

To paraphrase an old politician:
I know Round-Up damage, my friend, and this is not Round-Up Damage.

Even given the remote possibility that by some malign chance a huge dose of herbicide drifted to your garden, bypassing every other plant in the neighborhood -- that rose is STILL toast.

Roses THAT badly-affected -- You could waste productive gardening years trying to nurse them back to good health, and it is probable that they will never be right again.

Unless this is your own seedling, never propagated, and so the only plant of that rose in the world, it's far smarter to bite the bullet and dig it/them up and buy another one.

Meanwhile, if it IS RRD (and that is what it appears to be) the danger of infecting other roses -- yours AND those in neighboring properties -- is simply not worth the risk.

Jeri

But we are not totally free of it. It HAS been found in some areas in CA, I think.

So, what would I do, if we saw something like that?

Consider: We live in almost constant West wind, blowing in from the sea, and on up the hill.

We would immediately remove the affected roses, preserving in plastic bags some samples for the State to examine. And just to make sure it didn't get overlooked, we would ask Baldo who to contact in our County.

Yes. We would take it VERY seriously.

Jeri

The leaves tend to look wispy and stunted.

These are pictures of my Ballerina rose that had RRD:

As you can see, it's quite different. Of course not all roses show the same damage, but most pictures of RRD show over growth more than stunted and wispy growth. Also RU damage usually doesn't show redish growth or soft canes or hyper thorniness.

If you could post pictures of your rose and what could be RU damage it would help.

"The Dandelion's pallid tube
Astonishes the Grass,
And Winter instantly becomes
An infinite Alas.

The tube uplifts a signal Bud
And then a shouting Flower, --
The Proclamation of the Suns
That sepulture is o'er."

The Dandelion probably originated in ancient China, and it probably came to North America on the Mayflower, as it was valued for many reasons. It is a good source of calcium, potassium, vitamin A, and vitamin C. The calcium content alone is impressive. A serving of dandelion greens has as much calcium as half a cup of milk.

Maybe the Pilgrims were smart to have brought it.

Dandelion Wine, anyone?

Jeri

H.Kuska comment. First, I based my first part of my response on what information you presented initially. I am completely able to understand the significance of the additional information that you now presented.

Regarding the above quote: Are you now saying that someone should not first try cutting the diseased cane off at ground level?(If that is not what you mean, please clarify?)

Even earlier in this thread you stated: "If it's own root, you could try to save the uninfected side; if it's grafted (as mine was) cutting off only the infected cane didn't work for me, as it came back with the new growth the next spring."

And, you just posted this the other day:
""Posted by anntn6b z6b TN (My Page) on Thu, Oct 11, 12 at 23:11

Henry,
...................................................................... ...................................................................... ...............
Cutting off an infected cane HAS to be done before the virus moves down into the roots (assuming stem meristem infection) and back out. I've saved several roses from different classes in my yard by catching the problem when only a single leaf node (or three on one side of the cane) were infected in fall. I saved an American Pillar in spring when it was out on a cane about ten feet from the roots. I've never saved a HT, and I've only seen RRD on HTs in spring. That may have something to do with the transmission times in fall to late fall."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg090736464774.html ?47

H.Kuska comment: why is this addressed to me? A problem with catsrose's proposal is that in letting the possibly infected part grow, one is providing a possible source for infection to nearby roses. My recommendation was:

"Posted by henry_kuska z5 OH (kuska@neo.rr.com) on Wed, Oct 17, 12 at 13:12

vickysgarden, because of the timing of the "infections" I suspected a spring and then a fall "weed and feed" possibility. If that is the cause, it should go away if the applications of herbicides stop. As a precaution I would recommend cutting off the bad cane at its emergence from the ground."

That's why those of us who have seen both first hand are telling you this.

Jeri

I removed Maggie, and now have it on another rose.

The rose seems very strong and healthy, and I hate to dig it up.

I have never been able to understand how the mite operates, and why it can infect other roses. Does it lay eggs? Does it multiply? Does the mite give the rose a virus? How is it catching?

I have had problems for years, and if the distortion is red, then it is RRD. How is it that I can see a long branch, take it out, and the rose will be healthy for years?

I wonder if in years to come, horticulturist will say that we have made huge mistakes, and that there are many variations of what we thought was one problem, and all those roses did not require being pulled.

I like Henry's statements as well as Ann's. I think it is good to question traditions that cannot be fully proven.

I have many roses planted together. I hate to take out one. I have a Maggie standing alone where I took out the other one. If I remove Belinda's Dream, the other one will not look as dramatic all alone.

I am resistant to the information that I read. It just seems to me that there are some gaps in the data, and that all the information is not the result of scientific investigation.

I have always respected Henry's opinions.

Sammy

H.Kuska comment: I feel that there is a big difference between my actual positions and the above.

If anyone feels that they can cite statements in this thread or in other threads that support the "insistence" statement, please present them and I will try to explain them. This is a forum.

I have never been able to understand how the mite operates,
The mite is an eriophyid mite, (see line drawing in my ebook). It breaths through its skin, it feeds on plants through a stylette, it travels randomly by wind and is dropped out of the wind when the wind speed drops. If the RRv vector doesn't land on a rose, it leaves by the next wind

and why it can infect other roses.
Once it has fed on one infected rose, it has the potential to infect any additional rose it moves to.

Does it lay eggs? Females lay eggs and do not always require a male mite for fertilization. I don't know if it's known if the assorted eriophyid mite vectored diseases can pass through the eggs.

Does it multiply? The disease can multilpy once it's inside the rose stem, into the rest of the bush.

Does the mite give the rose a virus? Yes,

How is it catching? I think the disease travels through the phloem-xylem system of the rose (this follows Dr. Jim Amrine's suggestions of how the mite spreads RRD into active meristemic (and undifferentiated) material. From ultramicrographs we have seen that it resides in cells as well.

I have had problems for years, and if the distortion is red, then

Not all red growth is RRD, RRV, but normal red growth becomes green; RRD growth that's red happens rapidly and there will be a lot more red than on unifected canes of the same rose. In most instances it will turn green eventually. BUT RRD on some multiflora related roses will cause reddish new growth in seasons when the rose itself wouldnot normally make red growth.

Feel free to believe all that Henry quotes. This IS a free country.

Do, however, remember that two decades ago almost all ag people put in writing that RRD seldom affected cultivated roses because they followed what was written by two professors at Iowa State. It was only afer I started collected data and photos of sick roses (with the help of these forums on Gardenweb as start) that the tide turned and the professionals started realizing that the problem was serious.

No, I think your statement " I wonder if in years to come, horticulturist will say that we have made huge mistakes, and that there are many variations of what we thought was one problem, and all those roses did not require being pulled" is misguided. There may be some minor variations in the virus, but to suggest that all those roses did not require being pulled..... is just wrong.

Read the literature about the similar problem of Black Current Reversion associated Virus,a century long problem in Europe. Then go to the Pigeon Pea Sterility virus papers. Keep reading and then you may want to rethink your statement.

I watched a hedge of Knockouts over four years. This year all twelve of them are dead. It was interesting watching how the symptoms changed over time, never getting better. Really sad and depressing, in fact. No one in the business cared nor did their landscape company.

H.Kuska comment. This is supposed to be a forum. If Ann or anyone else feels that a quote from me or anyone else should not be believed, please produce the challenged quote and explain why you believe it is in error.
-------------------------------
Right now we still have on the table her statement of "Posted by anntn6b z6b TN (My Page) on Fri, Oct 19, 12 at 18:04"....."Why else would you encourage people to take chances with the roses in their gardens that have the potential to be both contageous and fatal. I am having real trouble respecting your observations."
-----------------------------
I responded to it on Fri, Oct 19, 12 at 21:08.
I asked: "Regarding the above quote: Are you now saying that someone should not first try cutting the diseased cane off at ground level?(If that is not what you mean, please clarify?)"
I then produced very recent examples where I felt Ann was saying things very similar to what I proposed. (When you consider this, please keep in mind that my recommendation was given to someone who admitted using weed and feed on the lawn and that this was in mid October in zone 5.)

Also I made the following point (and asked a question) on Thu, Oct 18, 12 at 14:31

"My statement included the following: "As a precaution I would recommend cutting off the bad cane at its emergence from the ground."
--------------------------------
This is the middle of October in zone 5. What is the risk of mite spread this late in the season from the remaining canes that do not show infection?"

================================

To summarize: The infected cane has been cut off, it is mid October in Zone 5, is there anyone here that feels (and if possible can document) that any still existing clean mites have a realistic expectation of picking up the virus from the remaining canes that do not show infection. If there is such a realistic possibility, then I am back to why Ann discussed similar cane cutting in her posts?

Situations change from year to year in different parts of the country with different weather.

Sheesh, Henry,

You now say: "I suggested and continue to suggest cutting single infected canes to try to stop the disease. I think that there are exceptions based on plants' differing rose classes and physiology."

Do you think my suggestion was an obvious "exception" such that it merited your statement: "Posted by anntn6b z6b TN (My Page) on Fri, Oct 19, 12 at 18:04"....."Why else would you encourage people to take chances with the roses in their gardens that have the potential to be both contageous and fatal. I am having real trouble respecting your observations."?

If so please explain. If not please retract.

I had (that's the operative word) a floribunda own root in the ground for 8 years this past spring called 'Hot Cocoa'. I mentioned to a friend of mine who is a consulting Rosarian about how the right side of the plant had canes with an overabundance of thorns (prickles) on them. She asked me if it was grafted or if the roses on these stems changed color-- I told her no in both instances. The stems remained red throughout the season and didn't turn green like the stems on the left side of this bush.
I was busy answering questions on another garden forum that I participate in and googled this disease. As soon as I saw photos of the excessive thorniness and the reddened established stems, I knew that 'Hot Cocoa' had to be dug up completely (no roots left in ground) and destroyed or placed to the trash curb. I have done a quick inspection of my remaining roses and have not seen this disease yet on my roses. I am keeping fingers crossed that I nipped this before it spread to other roses in the garden. I've read it spreads by a specific mite, but I would not discount aphids not doing their share of damage either as they are know viral carriers. In the past, this 'Hot Cocoa' has had aphids attacking it in early spring when the plant starts to emit their leaves and buds. Ladybeetles have helped a great deal, but I guess one batch of aphids had this virus in their saliva when they attacked my rose.

I have an e mail in to someone who wrote about this disease on the ARS website and have asked if I can replant another 'Hot Cocoa' rose in the spring here or another rose or should I plant something altogether different. When and if I get a response, I will report back what she says.

Years ago, before I knew what RRD was, I had two separate [client] gardens, each with an RRD rose and several others. I left both roses in the ground, cutting off the sick parts as they emerged, for several years before the roses died. None of the other roses in either garden were ever infected.

I also wonder if the mites may be hitching rides on deer and other critters who pass thru infested stands of multiflora.

For fairness Strawberryhill 5a (My Page) on Wed, Oct 17, 12 at 12:36 also brought up the excessive thorns, She said:

"I went out and check the thorns near the bud on my Mary Magdalene the second time. Very little compared to your DENSE AND RED prickles near the bud."
----------------------------------
H,Kuska comment concerning the thorns. Attached is a picture of Mary Magdalene http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.191231

As can be seen there are many small thorns near the flower bud. This is not uncommon, new growth - denser thorns, old growth (canes) very low density of thorns.
--------------------------------------
The question is what would the new growth thorns look like if stimulated by atrazine? My answer is I do not know. Observations made with Round-Up stimulation do not necessarily apply to atrazine stimulation as the 2 chemicals "may have" different modes of action. (I could say "most probably" but I will be conservative.)
---------------------------------

H.Kuska comment. Interesting questions. I have not done much "mite" reading. Raymond A. Cloyd, Ph.D. Professor and Specialist in Ornamental Entomology/Integrated Pest Management, Department of Entomology, Kansas State University would probably be the one to ask. Interestingly, he has a March 2011 web article about Rose Rosette Disease:
http://www.ksre.ksu.edu/library/entml2/mf2974.pdf

Professor Cloyd is probably best known to rose growers as coauthor of the book "Compendium of rose diseases and pests" (2007) with Professor R.K. Horst

http://entomology.k-state.edu/people/faculty/Cloyd-Raymond-A.html

http://entomology.k-state.edu/doc/cv/maincurriculumvitae.doc

--------------------------------------------
Apparently wind currents are not the only way the mite moves as: "Cloyd notes that these ingenious mites move from plant to plant by attaching to insects, or they may disperse via air currents from infested to healthy plants." See: http://citybugs.tamu.edu/2011/07/13/rose-rosette-disease-transmitted-b y-a-mite/
-----------------------------------
Myself, I marvel that a mite exists that is adaptable to such diverse climates as the climates in Canada where early reports were from and climates such as Missippi.
---------------------------------
There are "possible" non mite related ways that an infection could spread among your roses. An infected bush "may" infect another bush by the classic virus transfer routes: roots grafts, branches rubbing against each other, and lack of hygene during pruning.

catsrose: in regards to deer possibly being a mite vector-- I have no deer in this area of LI around me nor were there deer in that nursery where it was purchased. Now if deer were in the original nursery before it got shipped to me 8 years ago, I do not know.

"This past summer, news of herbicide contamination of compost in Vermont reverberated across the nation, and might lead to big changes in how herbicides are regulated, how compost is produced, and even the way major horse feed makers market their products"

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0817215826277.html

Jazzmom---Hot Cocoa is somewhat notorious for new growth resembling RRD. I thought mine had it 2 years ago; not so much. It's fine. Every now & then it will shoot up a new cane that looks like it sprung from the bowels of Frankenstein, and it's thornier than normal, and very red. In my case, that cane (and most of its others) remained red until it became "woody".

As I posted earlier in this thread, Raymond A. Cloyd, Ph.D. Professor and Specialist in Ornamental Entomology/Integrated Pest Management, Department of Entomology, Kansas State University has stated (second hand quote see link where I first presented this.): "Cloyd notes that these ingenious mites move from plant to plant by attaching to insects, or they may disperse via air currents from infested to healthy plants."

I can only guess how one could distinguish whether the mites traveled on Japanese Beetles or say somthing like aphids. (Of course they may travel on both or neither if Professor Cloyd had other types of insects in mind.) My guess would be that beetle transportation would be more consistent with infections appearing at random on bushes that suffered obvious earlier beetle damage while aphid mite carrier transportation would tend to be observed on roses closest to each other after the spring aphid outbreak.

Professor Cloyd gave a recent talk to the Wichita Rose Society http://www.sedgwick.ksu.edu/doc24994.ashx
Can anyone give us a report on it?

H.Kuska comment. If nothing else I would hope that you leave with an appreciation of the possible dangers of atrazine based lawn treatments to yourself, your family, and to society (if you did not already).

This link is off the subject but it is one of the reasons that I do so much reading about dangerous chemicals.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2012/10/cancer-rate-alarms-female-fire fighters#ixzz29yABf824

Henry Kuska Ph.D retired Chemistry Associate Professor.

Here in Southern California, the stuff runs off lawns, into gutters -- from there, into streams, creeks, and rivers, and on into the sea, causing all sorts of havoc. Even for folks way inland, there should be concern about what's running into creeks and lakes. If deformed frogs don't disturb you, they sure do disturb ME.

But I STILL don't think those RRD infested roses look like they've suffered herbicide damage.

And I STILL think that a plant badly-damaged by herbicide is a candidate for shovel-pruning.

Jeri

I am hesitant to include the "excessive growth of thorns" rule as it may only apply to exclude damage from certain types of herbicides and not others with different modes of action. Also not every expert agrees with that statement. For example, Ann Peck (see E-book link at the bottom of this article) points out: "Hyper thorniness is not a dependable indication of RRD, it does alert rosarians to be vigilant. It appears on some HTs, but sick OGRs and roses related to 'R. multiflora' may have �thorns no denser than ususal. Further confusing diagnoses, �many classes of old garden roses are extremely thorny �and no one could look at a sick rugosa, damask, or spinossissima �and declare it�s hyper thorniness to be aberrant. Likewise basal breaks on some healthy HTs appear thornier closer to the bud union, but become less thorny with increasing healthy growth. �This year, I have also seen a characteristic of some roses from cold hardy breeding programs to have denser thorns near the base; these roses have a built in rodent deterrent that I had not noticed until a question from New Brunswick about the possibility of RRD in that part of Canada."
---------------------------
H.Kuska comment. I feel that the last part of Ann's comments are similar to what I stated earlier in this thread:
"H,Kuska comment concerning the thorns. Attached is a picture of Mary Magdalene http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.191231

As can be seen there are many small thorns near the flower bud. This is not uncommon, new growth - denser thorns, old growth (canes) very low density of thorns."

H.Kuska comment. I know that you stated something along that idea earlier in this thread, but where is this idea challenged? By whom?

Jeri

When you drink Vodka over ice, it can give you kidney failure,
When you drink Rum over ice, it can give you liver failure,
When you drink Whiskey over ice, it can give you heart problems,
When you drink Gin over ice, it can give you brain problems.

Apparently, ice is really bad for you.

Warn all your friends

You need to look at the bigger picture and consider more than your pet cause.

Jeri

H.Kuska reply. I am disappointed whenever anyone is rude.

This was my question: "H.Kuska comment. I know that you stated something along that idea earlier in this thread, but where is this idea challenged? By whom?

A restatement. It is my opinion that no one has challenged that statement in this thread. Did I miss something?

The second is damage caused by a plant specialized bacterium called a phytoplasma. A July 2, 2012 article on Rose Rosette Disease by Dr. Joseph Bischolf states: "Based on some similarities to other better defined pathogens it's believed to be caused by a virus or plant specialized bacterium called a phytoplasma and spread by an eriophyid mite (Phyllocoptes fructiphylus)."
http://anla.org/knowledgecenter/ticker/index.cfm?view=detail&colid=123 &cid=329&mid=5415

His credentials are given on the right side in the above link.

In 2010 I started a thread in which some Polish papers and two non Polish reports that a phytoplasma affects roses were introduced.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0421561629709.html
--------------------------------------
The third find is that tested roses with Rose Rosette Disease type symptoms actually had: "In the process of attempting to identify the rose rosette agent, double-stranded RNA was isolated from several symptomatic Rosa multiflora plants from northwestern Arkansas. The pattern of the dsRNA bands differed among the five samples used in this study, suggesting the presence of several viruses."

http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/PDIS-92-12-1706B

Please note in the conclusion section the following: "Just before submission of this manuscript, the complete sequence of RMCV, a virus isolated from R. multiflora showing rose spring dwarf symptoms was published (2). RMCV and the dsRNAs isolated from R. multiflora in Arkansas are the same species because they share 99% nucleotide sequence identity. Cryptic viruses are expected to be symptomless though mild symptoms have been associated with several cryptic viruses (1). The presence of RMCV has been verified in both symptomless and plants infected with two severe diseases of rose, thus, the virus could play a role in the phenotype of these diseases as part of a virus complex. To our knowledge, this is the first report of RMCV in the eastern United States, which is closley related to RMCV from California (2). In the review process of this note, it was brought to our attention that a similar virus named Rose cryptic virus 1 was being investigated in Mississippi (Genbank Accession Nos. EU413666�68), supporting the statement that this virus is probably widespread in Rosa germplasm."

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread (on Oct 17) "I expect/hope that the availability of the specific Rose Rosette Virus test and the research now being done will allow future rose growers to be much more confident in their decisions."

For you to understand the "several Viruses" part of the equation, or to begin to try to understand it, first read the early reports by R. Gergerich et al about what they at first called RV-1. AND pay attention to why they looked at it.

Also look at the papers out of China that lump everything together based only on symptoms that seem to have been caused there by a nearby Pawlonia tree with witches broom.

Are the phytoplasma papers coming out of Kominska's lab germain? Look at the very short history of phytoplasmas. And you might also want to look at the prolific publications coming from that group of scientists who are finding phytoplasmas in huge numbers of plants. Do we grow roses in eastern European green house conditions, where their problem was first seen? I don't, nor do most people on Gardenweb. Maybe you do so it may be applicable to you.

Do you grow roses under a witches broom infected Pawlonia tree? If so, you may need to do something about it. From the land of Pawlonia gone wild (near me), so far, I've seen no witches brooms on the miles of them along I-40.

I would suggest you go to the scientists and learn enough to try to tell the world about the difference between the phytoplasmas and bacteria (and you might want to look at micovirses as well.)

What matters, to me and a few others, is that roses are sickening from a really nasty disease. I would like to think I've helped a few people keep growing roses.

There is a wealth of information in the Bibliography of my ebook. The Kaminska paper has been there for quite a while. And that is THE phytoplasma paper that tried to explain the greenhouse problem they were having in Europe.

"First report of association of �Candidatus Phytoplasma asteris� (16SrI group) with little leaf disease of rose (Rosa alba) in India
Y. Chaturvedi1, M. Singh1

Journal of Phytopathology, Volume 156, pages 93�98, (2008).

"Rose (Rosa alba) is grown in Gorakhpur, India, for ornamental and essential oil extraction purposes. Symptoms of little leaf disease, yellowing and shortening of internodes were observed in different rose gardens during June 2008. Leaf samples were collected from four plants each with, or without symptoms. Total DNA was extracted and assayed for phytoplasma 16S rRNA in a direct polymerase chain reaction (PCR) using universal primers PI/P6, followed by a nested PCR with R16F2n/R16R2 primers, yielding amplicons from only the samples with symptoms.

Three nested PCR amplicons were cloned (pGEM-T Easy Vector, Promega), sequenced, and the consensus sequence deposited in GenBank (Accession No. FJ429364). BLAST analysis revealed the highest identity (99%) of the R. alba little leaf phytoplasma with those of group 16SrI �Ca. Phytoplasma asteris�, confirmed by phylogenetic analysis (MEGA 4�0).

The group 16SrI has been reported from rose in China (Gao et al., 2008), and has impacted in India since its record in sesame (Khan et al., 2007) and desert rose (Adenium obesum) (Raj et al., 2007). However, this is the first report of a �Ca. Phytoplasma asteris�-related strain affecting R. alba in India."

--------------------------------------

The point I am trying to make is that there are known similar problems that the normal rose grower can misdiagnose as rose rosette virus. We both recommend cutting off the infected cane as a precaution. I give links to both of your articles on my rose rosette web page. What is the difference in our positions?

"As I have mentioned earlier in this thread (on Oct 17) "I expect/hope that the availability of the specific Rose Rosette Virus test and the research now being done will allow future rose growers to be much more confident in their decisions."

It is evident, however, that he invests a staggering amount of time noodling around the internet in search of obscure ephemera that may be supportive (if only tangentially) of his quest to pooh-pooh our RRD concerns. As I read his pontifications here about our gardening decisions, it occurs to me that it might be of passing interest if he were to reveal the percentage of time he spends conducting his online research, verses the percentage of time he spends working in/caring for/observing his own garden (assuming he has one).

There are a few certainties that almost everyone acknowledges: RRD is a very real problem. RRD has been a problem for quite a while. RRD seems to become more of a problem with each passing season. There is much that remains to be learned about this scourge -- but until we learn all there is to know about RRD, what are we to do? Follow Henry's cavalier "wait and see, maybe it is/maybe it isn't" approach?

Those of us who have witnessed RRD firsthand KNOW that Vicky provided a photo of an RRD-infected rose. It seems to me that Henry is a contrarian solely for the sake of contrarianism. Unfortunately, there are those confronting a stressed rose(s) who may listen to -- and act on -- his nebulous opinions, straining to embrace the slim chance that someone somewhere in their general vicinity just might possibly have applied an herbicide at some point in the fairly recent past. The stark fact is that there are times when risking an overreaction is the most reasoned and prudent course of action to take.

I do not think I'm being melodramatic in (again) stating my belief that the damage Henry's wait and see response may already have done, and may continue to be doing, is incalculable.

Equally incalculable, IMO, is the contribution that Ann has made, and continues to make, in creating an awareness of the problem at hand, monitoring the spread of the disease, and keeping us abreast of RRD-related developments.

There is one thing in jaxondal's list of the things we know about RRD that is missing. We know that at this time the most likely way to prevent a contagious infection is to eleminate that which is infected. Removing an infected cane is not fool proof and while waiting to see if it worked your other roses are at a higher risk than if you had removed the whole plant. The difference in your postions is that cutting just an infected cane is not the best and most certain course of action--it is an action fraught with risk--Ann knows this. Henry's presumption seems to be that RRD is not high risk with devastating potential.

THANK YOU!!!

Jeri

and then later after getting a yes answer. "vickysgarden, because of the timing of the "infections" I suspected a spring and then a fall "weed and feed" possibility. If that is the cause, it should go away if the applications of herbicides stop. As a precaution I would recommend cutting off the bad cane at its emergence from the ground."
-----------------------------------
Please see everyrose's comment in the following thread:
(rather than cut and past it here, the thread is short, so please read it there)

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg101547265198.html?6

-------------------------------------
Another post where there is concern that damage could be from herbidide:
"Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on Sun, Apr 1, 12 at 18:14

if it's against the fence you need to check with the neighbor on the other side of that fence and find out if they have used any herbicides lately."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg0414491111284.htm l
----------------------------------
Also see: "Posted by flaurabunda 6a, Central IL (My Page) on Tue, Aug 7, 12 at 10:35
................I freaked out thinking that the gorgeous group had RRD earlier this summer, but I didn't call anyone or post about it. The city seems to be pretty lax & takes the easy way out of plant care; scatter some water around, mow over things, hope for the best. I figured if some unknown woman called them, the call would go ignored. Anyway, I kept an eye on the ones that looked like your photo and they appear fine now."
And in the same thread:
"Posted by dublinbay z6 KS (My Page) on Tue, Aug 7, 12 at 15:00

"Until one of the experts comes along, I recommend that you rip that questionable cane out down as low, as close to the crown, as you can get. Then play the waiting game--if no strange growth returns, whatever it was is gone. If it returns, then start really worrying about how serious it is--that is when you need the expert's diagnosis."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0817215826277.html
--------------------------
"Posted by kentucky_rose Z6 KY (My Page) on Tue, Jul 31, 12 at 15:15

Yesterday I saw what may be early stages of RRD and cut it out. If anything weird or suspicous-looking grows from the bush after this, it is out of here. I'm hoping it's herbicide drift or if RRD, I caught it early enough to save the bush. Time will tell. My bush is Pat's Choice. Then later I visited a friend's rose garden and her Chris Everett had multiple infected canes of RRD and based on the growth it had been there a while. I told her to dig it up, bag it, and toss in regular garbage."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg071955158386.html
-----------------------------------
"Posted by michaelg z6B NC Mts (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 9:45

A cluster of shoots and with crumpled leaves ( different from equally young growth on the same variety), these are additional RRD symptoms. If you remove such suspicious growth with pruners, be sure to sterilize them and bag the trimmings. Also you should take the underlying cane down to grade immediately."
"Posted by michaelg z6B NC Mts (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 12:40

KR, What I do if I have strong suspicion but am not fully convinced is to cut the plant down, removing most of the cane and all foliage, and see what grows back. I just dug a plant yesterday that came back funny. Another one that I cut back at the same time looks fine. The latter previously had probable RRD growth high on only one cane."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0920343630587.html
--------------------------------------

H.Kuska comment. I am surprised that you do not see the simularity between Ann's "cut cane" recommendations and mine.
Regarding the rest of your statement about your interpretation of my "presumption", please do not try to base a discussion on "seems to be" type statements.

If you have a particular statement that you wish to challenge, I request the courtesy of you putting it in quotes.

You would then have images and your own data to go with all of the internet searches. You could then write your own ebook and just drop your link to your book rather than all of these "quotes" you post here.

Just as an fyi; my boss who uses roundup regularly and had his garden staff use ru right next to his driveway lined roses, there was some red damage on the roses shortly after spraying on a windy say. BUT it did not take long for the damaged cane to look more normal and green like the rest of the plant. Today, a few months later, the worst cane looks more like it had a bout of mildew damage.

H.Kuska reply. I feel that there are enough articles by scientists in the field already available.

I have tried to sumarize a select subgroup of them on my web page on the subject. I of course will update it as new information becomes available.

-------------------------------

On some of my other rose related web pages I include something like the following:

"This page gives the information that I have collected from my own literature searches and from others posting on the internet. Please let me know if you feel anything is not clear or is not addressed at all as I am continually updating/modifying it as I get feedback."

I will add the above to the rose rosette virus page the next time that I update it.

Google already does web searches. If you were satisfied with those, you would need to do no more than drop the link to your website with all of those rather than all the quotes and replies with yet more web searched quotes.

But I think I am wasting my time; there are those that do and those that talk (or type)

Another person told me about you, and in time you were encouraged to tell what your credentials are. I wish you would remind us.

I am only a school teacher who is suspicious. I know the weather can have effects on roses that nobody here seems to mention. I know that there have been drugs that were supposed to be vital to many of us who have gotten older. Then suddenly there is a big "Wooops", and we must stop them immediately, and hope no damage has occurred.

I have always had so much respct for you, and wish you would blow your own horn a little.

I am not trying to diminish Ann's knowledge, but I feel that many are getting too wrapped up in these disagreements. Gee. We all have a life. I think this thread has been very interesting. But in the end, I will do exactly what I want to do in my garden. And I hope through threads like this I will have more information than I had in the past.

We all are who we are. You are a scientist?? I like your information and your links.

Sammy

Among the regulars here, Henry is not the sole possessor of credentials.

My first mention of Rose Rosette Disease on the internet (that I can document - I have have lost much information due to disk crashes and I have eliminated all of my earlier paper copies due to final downsizing) was on May 24, 1995 in rec.gardens.roses

1994-5 rose literature Henry Kuska FMFR...@prodigy.com rec gardens roses The following was published in the June 1995 issue of the Akron Rose Rambler. 1994-95 Rose Literature (through April) AUTHOR(S) Vainstein, ..... AUTHOR(S) TITLE Rose rosette research resumes. PUBLISHED IN American Nurseryman v. 179 (Apr. 1 ' 94) p69.
May 24 1995 by Henry Kuska - 1 message - 1 author"
---------------------------

You might be interested in, perhaps even persuaded by, the opinions of another very learned person, one who is widely recognized as a rose expert: Malcolm Manners, PhD. Dr. Manners is (full) Professor and Chair of the Department of Horticultural Science at Florida Southern, an institution renowned both here and abroad for its horticultural programs. He was very recently honored by the World Federation of Roses when his name was added to that organization's roster of "Great Rosarians of the World".

Time and again on this forum and on the Antique Roses Forum, Dr. Manners has stepped in to correct assertions made by Henry Kuska on a range of topics, including RRD and RMV. You might find it enlightening to do a search for some of those threads. IIRC, the exchanges on the Antique Roses Forum are particularly revealing.

Please post a link(s) to discussions where Dr. Manners has challenged my views on RRV (as you have stated above - "correct assertions made by Henry Kuska on a range of topics, including RRD.....".

Odd how most of these loooonnnnggg threads have so many posts by one person

My disappointment is in the loss of so many posters when there are disagreements. People give their views, then suddenly the forum "goes viral", people take sides, and often feel free to ridicule Henry Kuska, Dr. Henry Kuska, a college professor for 30 years.

I needed to have my facts before I posted about Henry, but he has impressive credentials. That does not make him smarter than Ann or Dr. Manners or anyone else. However, every one of us deserves to be treated with respect. I am a Spanish teacher, and do not have a clue about some the posts the others are talking about. I cannot understand it. That makes me a better teacher, and does not help my garden.

I think about some very good people who had valuable input, and have left. That is sad. Why do any of us care enough to get mad? I see the conflict between the two experts, but I also see that some of us are taking sides. I don't think we should do that. I like Henry, and I like Ann. They are both experts and I think they should have their say without being disrespected.

I am not sure that threads stop at 100 anymore.

Sammy

(I guess I would like to edit.)
Sammy

But when presented with overwhelming evidence of RRD in the form of red, distorted growth, hyper thoriness, and to STILL insist that it is herbicide damage is not just annoying, it's negligent, IMO.

I understand that Henry has credentials, but to me, he seems not to see the forest for the trees. What does compost made in Vermont have to do with someone's roses across the country? We all know that herbicides can cause damage to roses. But most of us also know that it is not the same as RRD and to confuse the issue risks that real cases of RRD will be left in a garden to infect other roses.

And let's remember that it was scientists at a university that implemented RRD with the promise that it wouldn't harm cultivated roses. So excuse me if I take what they now say with a grain of salt.

Henry, you likely have over a hundred posts on this subject matter. For you to think that someone who has read many of them hasn't or shouldn't come to some general conclusions about your attitudes and what "seems to be" your thought process is ludicrous. I'm not interested in "challenging you." I'm here for the conversation. The art (not science) of communication takes more into account than specific literal meaning of words.

H.Kuska comment: My statement was: "vickysgarden, because of the timing of the "infections" I suspected a spring and then a fall "weed and feed" possibility. If that is the cause, it should go away if the applications of herbicides stop. As a precaution I would recommend cutting off the bad cane at its emergence from the ground."
Please notice I said "I suspected" and then "as a precaution". This is not the same as: "insist that it is herbicide damage...."

Ann said: "Yes, sorry, but it is.
I know because my Mary M got it about four years ago and had nearly identical symptoms. Also in fall.

If it's own root, you could try to save the uninfected side; if it's grafted (as mine was) cutting off only the infected cane didn't work for me, as it came back with the new growth the next spring."

H.Kuska comment: she did not say cutting off only the infected cane would be negligent. We came from opposite directions, but we both mentioned the same option.
-----------------------------
Please note that I brought up the dangers of atrazine and additional sources of herbicide exposure after the thread issue was settled - vickysgarden had told us that the bush was removed.

I documented that other "experts" than Ann also mentioned the possibility of "cutting the cane off step" (as I documented that she had).

I also documented that other "experts" bring up the possibility of herbicide damage and or cutting the cane as have other participants in this forum in other threads. I presented pictures of how variable herbicide damage could be.
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
One great thing about Google is that it is easy to find new or changed web pages. This is one that came up:
http://www.nashvillerosesociety.com/Diseases.html
It is by the Nashville Rose Society. It does not allow a direct link but you can get to the Rose Rosette page on the left side.

What is of interest here?

1) "This deadly affliction is 100 percent fatal. So if you see it, just dig up the plant and remove it from the garden as soon as possible, as the mites which spread the infection are present in the plant."
H.Kuska comment. The article did not mention trying the cut route first. No discussion about other possible causes such as herbicide damage
-------------------------
2) "Canes appear overly large and purple or deep red in color"
H.Kuska comment. No allowance that the cane symptoms can vary.
------------------------
3) "The symptoms of this affliction are described as 'virus like', because the exact actual organism which causes Rose Rosette has not actually been identified as of yet."
H.Kuska comment. ???? The September 17, 2012 reference that the paper cites says: " Rose rosette disease (RRD), a disease believed to be caused by the recently identified Rose rosette virus,......"
------------------------------
4) "Hybrid Teas are less likely to be used as hosts by this mite."
H.Kuska comment. Ann, I will leave this one for you.
-----------------------------
5) " This affliction is NOT spread by pruners or by any other known agent besides the tiny mites. So it is not contagious in that way."
H.Kuska comment. Interesting contrast - always pull out the bush but don't worry about prunning spread. I am not familar with any research concerning spread by prunning. Ann, did Iowa or any other laboratory publish something that I missed?
----------------------------

To me the problems with that article, so close to Ann's stomping grounds, illustrate that we are not being successful enough with communicating what science knows and doesn't know about this virus.
-------------------------------------
Did this year's American Rose Society Annual have an update on this topic?

H.Kuska comment. Notice he "knows" that about Ann even though Ann allowed for that same possibility of cutting off the cane with no "devasting potential" part of her statement. He then uses a "seems to be" statement. Please look up "setting up a straw man". I am interested in discussing my statements not defending against "straw man" positions.

Your later statement: "For you to think that someone who has read many of them hasn't or shouldn't come to some general conclusions about your attitudes and what "seems to be" your thought process is ludicrous." is another example of this problem. I did not state that. I expect every reader to come to whatever conclusion they want to about the subject and to post their conclusions about the subjects.

My statement to you was: "Regarding the rest of your statement about your interpretation of my "presumption", please do not try to base a discussion on "seems to be" type statements.

If you have a particular statement that you wish to challenge, I request the courtesy of you putting it in quotes."

In doing so, you have driven away others who had the temerity to comment on what you regard as your personal territory. Just let it rest, already.

We have ALL "got" that you believe Herbicide Damage may sometimes be mistaken for RRD. Well and good. You don't need to continue to pound that "lesson" home. You are not covering yourself with glory, here.

Take part in a discussion among equals, PLEASE.

Jeri

I came to this thread in hopes of getting some practical information that I could use or impart to others about what RRD is. Instead I see links to herbicides and other off the topic links.

For this entire day I so wanted to post a picture of the proverbial 'beating the dead horse' on this thread.

I don't know Henry at all, but anyone trying to find practical information to this disease if they attempted to go through the 100 plus posts here would find they were inundated with the 'chicken vs' the egg' thinking-- herbicide damage vs RRD causing the deformities on roses. Most people coming to these forums want bullet information-- not link upon links to wade through.

I am grateful to those who have tried to keep this thread on the topic. I believe the OP wanted to know if her pictured specimen had RRD. There was dissension if the damaged areas should be removed or the entire plant removed.

I'm in the camp that agrees with complete removal of the plant-- if its RRD. RRD is a systemic disease and can spread to other roses by either your pruners or those mites that are wind blown to your rose.

Now can we please stop with the herbicide links? Please if its important to you to mention this, please start a thread about it instead of hijacking this one. Thank you.

Well this person, who was very nice and personable, didn't know that there were roses that were once bloomers and said that she though RRD was caused by roses being in the shade.

Buford, I too heard an "expert" at a recent talk on RRD to our local rose society. The audience had to constant correct his misinformation. We get a lot of RRD here--we know it well.

I have learned a lot on this thread, so for that, I say a heartfelt "thank you."

I've also learned that sometimes, this forum does what every other forum does...and that's argue until the subject is exhausted, and then still argue. Sort of like the last man standing wins, I suppose. LOL.

What I've also learned is that while we all consider our roses as friends and companions, replacing one is not very difficult in most situations and for the average rose-gardener (not speaking to unusual or rare varieties...). And yes, while it "hurts" us to SP a plant, still, it's just another job to do in our gardening duties sometimes.

In other words, as Paul Zimmerman might say, "it's just a plant."

removing a diseased plant from our gardens should be second nature to us; does any of us "like" pulling live and healthy plants? No, but if there's a chance that leaving it intact would infect the rest of my garden, it goes.

In summary, I suppose what I've learned from this thread is:
~SP a plant with the disease;
~RRV is very contagious;
~RU may mimic the early stages of RRV;
~When in doubt, pull it out;
~Roses are "just a plant".

This will be my only post on this thread...thanks for the education.

Best-
Herding Cats

Thank you, HerdingCats. :-)

Jeri

If you felt that there was no question that it was infected and you feel as you stated "even those of us who have had to deal with the epidemic of this disease" you could of added a statement in this thread to vickysgarden concerning your opinion. This is an open forum.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0420114631872.html

In that case, only 33 to go.

Jeri

If so, I'll take one down and leave 32.

I cut these the other day, before the Santa Ana wind began blowing.

29

Jeri :-)

28.

The wind was wicked down in Ventura today!

Pretty calm up here today. RRD mites would have been blown to the ocean with these winds

26

25

There was a guy at OSH yesterday asking the salesman if roundup would work on mice and rats....

24

Maybe the hurricane will Drown the mites.

Jeri