I know it isn't that long, but I've been buying bareroot roses from J&P for the past five years, and not a single one has come with a metal tag?? I have Meilland/Star roses that have the tag on them, but not J&P. That must be something that they've done in the past possibly?

I haven't been able to get any cutting to root either, as much as I've tried. However, like Marilia said, propagated roses are exactly what you are buying whenever you buy roses; whether grafted or ownroot. Most nurseries have "mother plants" that they take their cuttings from. If you grow roses from seed, they are not the same as the parent rose, and could grow up to be completely different! ...but I assume that's the fun of it! :)

There's the rub. Home propagation usually means a rose grown on its own roots. Quite a few modern roses benefit from being grafted. For those of us with an Alkaline Ph based soil Dr. Huey root stock is about the only widely available root stock that does well for us. European/Canadian sources, even were they to somehow propagate J&P roses, use Multiflora. Outside of growing them in containers, multiflora is not going to cut it for me. Neither does Fortuniana, the other rootstock that some modern exhibitition breeders use. We people in the Dr. Huey camp are the ones who could really be in a world of hurt......Maryl

Who is dr huey? There is a small metal tag that has the name of the rose. I have two of them, look careful on the rose for the tag, it is hard to see. Maybe they stopped doing it at some point? I will take a photo (when I have more time of the tag) and post it online here.

So, I see even if I was to propagate it, I would not be able to get a good root stock for it. Therefore, I think the tag would be valuable,in terms of resale or status. You would know you are getting the real thing with the good root stock.

This should help :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Types of Rootstock

The tag is not important. Basically, it's a piece of wire with a name stamped in it, and a person had to put it on the rose to begin with. If you've ever had a mis-tagged rose, you'll understand what I mean. (In other words, anybody can take a tag off one rose & stick it on another rose.)

A better practice is expanding your rose knowledge base. Read, read, and read more...and learn from some of the wise veterans here....and you'll be able to identify rootstocks, different varieties of roses, etc without reliance on a tag that may or may not be correct.

Granted, it takes time, but the information you learn here or in some of the better books on roses is WAAAAAAAAY more valuable than some goofball's schtick about Jaguars on his blog page. :)

Bug Girl -- THOUSANDS of people grow healthy roses in San Francisco, and the entire Bay Area is a very active rose-hobby area. If the roses you are growing have disease problems in San Francisco, you are growing the wrong roses for your area.
I, too, live in a mild-climate, foggy, coastal area.
There are roses we can't grow well here, but MANY that we can grow to advantage.
We have the best success with Tea Roses and China Roses, and some of the Noisettes and Polyanthas. Hybrid Teas and Hybrid Perpetuals aren't as easy.

And, yes. As others have said, if you grow roses from cuttings, or learn to bud them to good rootstock, they will be the EXACT same rose as their parent.

Growing roses from cuttings isn't that hard. Nor is budding an arcane mystery. Both can be learned. And you don't HAVE to bud to Dr. Huey. Other roses make very good rootstock, which is why we have found many of them, all over California.

If own-root does not appeal to you (I prefer own-root plants in most cases, but YMMV) buy yourself a Fortuniana, or even a Gloire des Rosomanes, and learn to bud.

And, yes. Read, read, and read more, as Flaurabunda advised. And ASK QUESTIONS. You're halfway there.

Jeri

I just looked at my tags, only one of my roses is Jackson and Perkins. The other has a tag, but it's not Jackson and Perkins. I am looking for a list of all Jackson and Perkins roses online and I can't find one. I just want to consider buying one more before they get hard to find.

The Jackson & Perkins Wholesale website has lists of their patented roses.

J&P may disappear but I doubt the many beautiful roses they've introduced over the years will all disappear. A lot of the older ones are already out of patent and available from other growers. I don't know the legalities but I believe they may also sell off their patents to cover debt which would keep even more on the market. And seriously, some of them weren't all that good to begin with. There are probably plenty of threads on here about their highly touted roses we all jumped to buy only to find after a season or two that they weren't as advertised. In any event the roses are the most important thing and not the little tags. I have dozens of them from my mom and I. I keep them in a baggie because I replace them with my own tags on the roses because they're too small to be readable.

I think learning how to propagate is a good suggestion. Rooting is very simple and grafting not that much harder. But lets also remember to BUY roses from the few vendors we still have to keep them in business. That's the best way to keep roses from disappearing.

Bug_Girl......

You can generate a list of Jackson & Perkins roses by using the ADVANCED SEARCH feature on HelpMeFind and using "introducer" for your search criteria. A list of about 24 pages of roses will appear.

Smiles,
Lyn

Here is a link that might be useful: HelpMeFind.com

Absolutely, Seil. I'm sorry I didn't emphasize that.

Some of our wonderful Specialty vendors ARE still in business.

BugGirl needs to know to look up her roses by the rose name, not by J&P. Anything J&P offered, other growers ALSO offered.

As for bred roses, some of the best roses of the past couple of decades came to us from smaller companies.

Some of the BEST came from Tom Carruth's breeding program, at Weeks Roses (which company was pulled down by J&P's crash).

If you go to the HelpMeFind website, you can look up a rose you are interested in, BugGirl, and even find out who currently offers it. (Not ALL rose vendors are gone!!!)

If NO ONE currently offers it in North America -- PROPAGATE IT YOURSELF.
I assure you that some of the best roses bred in the United States in the past few decades did NOT come from J&P.

Jeri
(who lives about 2 miles from J&P's defunct Research Facility)

Here is a link that might be useful: HelpMeFind Roses

Keep in mind many of the roses J&P sold and with the tags were not their roses. They were renamed roses from Kordes, other foreign rose hybridizers, and independent hybridizers. Some were roses that had never been patented that J&P renamed and patented.
While they did bring out some great roses, they also took advantage of others that weren't theirs.
Over the years they introduced Several "Exclusives", "Limited editions", and "Roses of the Year", then stopped growing them. They refused to grant permission for others to license their propagation so many have disappeared or are only found in a private garden somewhere.

I do agree with the above but if one can't find the rose one wants one can't you can't propagate it. If I could find one that would be enough for me, considering the size of my garden is small.

There were too many new roses every year. Most people I think like to focus on roses with establish reputations, unless one is able to grow a large number of roses.

I have been to help me find, but how would 'introducer' indicate that those were Jackson and Perkins. I did see a list on the wholesale website, but there were not very many under patent. The list seemed short, most of them had a lot of petals. A high petal count is bad. I had a disease resistant rose, but the flowers would not open due to a high petal count. The rose was ruined and it did not matter that it was disease resistant.

I just wanted to ad one of my silver tags is also a Meilland/Star and one is a Jackson and Perkins. I buy those vintage dolls and clothes on ebay and having the tag is really important to the resale value. Maybe with roses it would not be important? I can see that. I was just thinking of the idea of people buying some now to sell in five years. Once you start playing that buy now resell later of limited edition items, you start to care about the tags. You can see the same item one with the tag and one without will go for different prices. Without the tag it will be much less. However, if the J P tag does not mean that it real, then that would throw the whole theory off.

But, I still think it's a good idea to buy some now, because the more good gardeners buy them now, the more will be saved for the future. If someone buy one and just throws out the tag over the years they will forget the name of the rose. It is very hard to ID a rose. If the house is sold the new owner may noticed the J P tag, and the rose is saved.

My suggestion is to ask some of the more experienced gardenders on this site their recomendations for some of the new J&P roses that are still under patent, especially the ones who live in your area. That's what I do whenever I'm having trouble making a decision or finding a specific rose to meet a need :)

But I really wouldn't worry about the tags, out of almost 250 roses in my garden, maybe 3 came with metal tags! Plus, I don't think there's really big resale market for the actual "mother plant," its all propagated cuttings that are sold and traded.

Wow, that is a lot of roses. Are there any rare or hard to find roses, that you know about? I know a lot of old roses are rare. We have a garden for them in san jose. But, putting old roses aside, I wonder if any modern hybrid teas or grandiflora roses did go up in value or became rare and hard to find? Also plant trading is very hard for me when we can't ship any soil in or out of California. Even if I could find a rare rose in another state, it could not be shipped to me, and also I could not sell the roses on ebay. Even shipping soil within CA may be outlawed unless you have a commerical operation. I would have to sell them to someone local within driving distance. All this puts a big damper on any plans to propagate roses and sell them.

No. Rose cultivars will not increase in value because they are rare.
They'll just disappear.
That said, be aware that you most certainly CAN buy roses from nurseries in other states -- though without precautions, regulations, and inspections, you cannot legally send roses to all areas of the U.S.

When I said "Learn To Propagate," I was talking about the time-honored practice of "PASSALONG."

Jeri

Bug Girl, Please don't take this the wrong way, but is your intent to truly save roses that are at risk of being lost, or to attempt to propagate for profit? If it is to buy/sell for profit, there's really not a lot of money to be made right now. There's speciality nurseries that have been around for years/generations that are at risk of going out of business, or have decided to close (ie: Vintage Gardens, J&P). These nurseries have built up reputations over the years, and even with that reputation, its still not enough to keep them afloat. Like Jeri said...try to keep the roses in circulation by tradng and passing them along...its the best way to make sure they are never lost!

I'm really not sure here what the goal is now; is it to grow roses as an investment? I don't think that venture will have much success, otherwise we'd not be seeing the unfortunate attrition of so many wonderful vendors.

If you're looking to stick rare or unusual roses in your yard regardless of what grows well in your climate, it will be an expensive, uphill battle.

Roses are shipped either bareroot or as potted plants. Bareroot = no soil. Where did you hear that nothing can be shipped to California? That's news to me, and I know we have a great representation of CA rose growers here. I know they don't all buy their roses from within the confines of the borders of that great state.

I just want to know out of curioisty, which roses are rare and hard to find. But, I was not thinking of adding them. It's a very small garden, very bad climate etc.. But, it might be good to post the information for others who are reading but not posting who may want to do something like that as a business venture.

I would imagine that for > 99% of gardeners, what they should be worrying about is finding roses that fit their needs as far as enhancing the beauty of their gardens, disease resistance, and appealing to the gardener's personal taste. The very few people out there who have the space, resources and inclination to collect rare roses for the sake of preserving them from extinction surely already know which roses are worth preserving and aren't going to be helped these posts.

If you're worried about your garden's resale value, I would encourage you to find roses that meet the criteria I listed above and find roses that complements your landscape. If a rose doesn't look good where you've planted it, chances are the new owners would simply shovel prune it regardless of its perceived rarity.

If you're having problems with roses balling, you should look for varieties resistant to botrytis, or at least avoid pale pink roses with lots of thin petals.

There's just about nothing that would anger rose growers more than having someone acquire rare roses and plant them in a garden where they would die just because they wanted to drive up the price for people who really CAN grow the specific variety.
Sorry, but that whole idea really rubs me the wrong way.

Yes, I did have botrytis and it undiagoned for years, until someone ID here. Now john keats is finally having a good flower.

I don't think anyone would want to buy up rare roses and let them die, because where would your resale value be? If you pay more for something one would take better care of it, but some do stuff like buy vintage clothes and leave them in moldy attics. I would not do something like that.

because where would your resale value be?

*** For the most part, "used" plants HAVE no resale value.

Jeri

BugGirl -- Let me put this simply for you. There is ZERO resale value in roses, ever, rare or otherwise, well kept or poorly kept, good climate or bad climate.

Profit is not why ANYONE should grow roses, save for maybe Jackson & Perkins, and look how well that did for them, even with economies of scale, their own breeding program and so forth.

And I am one of those people who collects the rarities. And I do take excellent care of them. You can find my list of roses on HMF under Rosaholics Southern California Garden.

Kathy.

bug_girl, you appear to be considering roses as if they were paintings or other types of 'art'. They aren't. There is absolutely no "resale" value to a rose bush. Trying to find homes for them from your garden is like trying to give away flea infested, pregnant kittens. I have requests at least three or four times a month from people who want someone to come dig up the roses from their gardens and give them homes. No one responds. When you can't give them away, what makes you think they could possibly have a resale value?

If they were desired and valued sufficiently in the first place, none of the nurseries we've lost would be where they are now. Even those closed by death, illness or old age would have found willing new owners to keep them going. The advice you've received here is solid. IF you want to "preserve" any of the about to be lost J&P roses, determine those which please you most and which will perform well in your climate and garden, then just enjoy them. Eventually, perhaps, you'll read a request here or on Help Me Find where someone is looking for one of them. Even then, they'll most often want a rooted or budded plant ready to bloom, and most often for as little money as possible. Been there.

There are already dozens, if not hundreds, of modern roses which were very good somewhere and are no longer commercially available. One I grew for many years in my old garden and which was rock solid in that climate was Glory Days, a J&P HT. It's listed in a few gardens and no nurseries offer it. Vision was the first imported rose to be introduced here by Week's and was another incredibly solid rose in my old garden. Same thing. No one offers it for sale. That most often says no one bought it from those who used to sell it, so it was replaced by something newer which fewer grew and more people spent money on. Kim

I am definitly the newbee here, but long story short: grow them for their beauty & your enjoyment, not to make a quick buck! Pick one's that you find beautiful, whether common or not!

And pick them, irrespective of what company produced them.

Some might think J&P a towering giant of roses.
And so, in its day, it was.
Now, no more.

The roses they grew will be as valuable over the coming decades as they show themselves to be. If they are really valuable, many people are growing them, and some plants will survive. But know that the world is full of roses produced by some of the FORMER giants of roses -- and if they survived to this day at all, a large number of them survived as Found Roses, with their names lost.

If there are roses you value, from J&P, or Weeks, or Sequoia, or any of the others we've lost ...

Just GROW them.
Propagate Them.
Share cuttings from them, in friendship.

And REMEMBER THEIR NAMES for the sake of those who may re-discover them in 20 or 30 years ". . . when tastes change" again . . . " and they are remembered, and sought.

Jeri

What you should do is go on craigs. I go on the free list of craigs and I post rose free. Such as the droppy yellow rose and the balling red rose, got taken within a few minutes of posting. That free list people at it all the time. But, of course that is not making a profit, but it's saving the rose from the great compost bin in the sky.

Thanks I am going to look at the list of rare roses, just for interest, just to learn more about roses.

Just skimmed this thread. My head is spinning. I think I must go lie down now. Bye . . .

I'm done.

Jeri

Me too!

Some people definitely have more patience than I do - you know who you are and my hat is off to each of you.

As frustrated as I was getting with this post...I really did have to laugh at times! I kept thinking "am I on Candid Camera?" Just had to shake my head in disbelief...

Regard these things as moments of light entertainment.

Jeri

It could always be worse.....got any blue rose seeds for sale? harharhar

Oh, bug girl is just pulling our collective leg. It's probably some kind of scheme to increase traffic to her blog. Oddly enough, she can spell and write a sensible sentence there. The link is on her profile , if you're curious about the deranged, like I was.

No, don't go to my website seriously, I don't update it and I don't like go daddy anymore since the CEO killed an elephant, but if I take it down, I can't get my money back. I don't have any use for traffic on my blog, because I don't get paid for it. I don't understand why a rose grower who is supposted to grow beautiful roses is such an ugly person inside. I am just chatting, and I will not reply to trolls every again, so don't bother writing back here, I am deleting all the replies on this forum. I got my question answers, I don't have any use to argue back and forth with trolls.

I was just doing some research on Jackson and Perkins for a client and this thread turned up........OMG, I haven't laughed so hard in ages! Thanks for making my day - that's the funniest discussion I've read on GW since forever. LOL!!

I think the really hot market is in the little metal tags.....

This makes me laugh too. I kept all my tags and transfered them to the bands that I bought later. It always seemed that the cane with the tag got the dieback so maybe the roses are trying to say something. I see people trying to read them from the sidewalk so I think they are useful.

ROFLMAO! The best was how earnest and sincere the replies were! Where was Campanula? I got a great chuckle out of this. Thanks for resurrecting it.

For Sale:

Metal Tag maker, no electricity required. Good way to build arm muscles.

No rose tags included, but I might have a variety of naughty lady "Social Security Id Card Blanks." (remember back when you used to carry that little paper card in your wallet and wanted that nifty personalized metal one)

(and if only I was not kidding and the "proud" owner of such a machine-my parents from back in the swapmeet days)

I think Kim may have touched upon something with the flea infested, pregnant kitten market!

Whoever you are bug-girl, please stop making comment about things you know nothing of-J&P and Wayside are doing fine

Mainsail, this thread was started in 2011, which is when the companies were in bankruptcy. That's beside the point. You just need to read the whole thing for the laugh factor, lol. Nobody ACTUALLY took bug_girl seriously.

Besides being really old, this is a hilarious thread! Anyone want to buy some rare "Simplicity" tags.......I know Kim looooooves this rose.

With any luck the 10+ year old or so thread on Pizzles from the pet forum will return. That one was gold!

Kippy, I missed the Pizzles thread, and I think it's gone from the Wayback machine. Someone tried to find it for me. We need to try to gather all the funny threads from all of GW and put them together somewhere. We're a hoot, if I do say so, lol. Remember the one about the fish/alfalfa mix fermenting into....olfactory garden gold? Who was that?

This is hilarious. I think everyone was misinterpreting what bug_girl was trying to say.

Probably because she didn't know how to say it.

Fig, you're thinking of Pappau's "Big Stinking Mess". I laughed until my face hurt. I think it's still out there somewhere.