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rosaholicme

Help, Please

rosaholicme
10 years ago

To date, I have lost 12 of my precious roses. The canes turn black, sometimes from the top down, sometimes from he root up. Sometimes the poor things put out a last bloom and I am brokenhearted. I live in Central Florida where we had a lot of rain this year but we have sandy soil, so my question is why?
Is it a fungus, too much water. And will I be able to replant in the spot where a rose has died?
To date, my loss includes the following: Love & Peace, Chrysler Imperial, Loretta Lyn Van Lear, Tropicana, Peace, Dolly Parton, Toro, a lovely tree rose, Sunbrite, and the list goes on
My Heart is broken. Has anyone else had this experience and can tell me why?
Any help will be deeply appreciated

Comments (30)

  • seil zone 6b MI
    10 years ago

    Do you know if your roses are own root or grafted? And if grafted what root stock are they on? Are they planted in the ground or in pots? Florida has a soil nematode that can kill rose roots on some root stock varieties.

  • dragoonsers
    10 years ago

    This happened this year with me too. Though I'm far from Florida. We had scorching sun with lots of rain/humid so I guess that's what got to me. Don't be let down. Lots of things. I would also suggest growing in a pot with good potting soil and see if the same thing happens?

  • rosaholicme
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Actually, two of them were in pots, two were own roots and the others are grafted in Fortuniana, which is the recommended rootstock for Florida, so although they were all in different mediums, the end result has been the same - all brown and dead. I still have three in pots with good potting soil (and they are several years old) which seem to be thriving although I have to prune the occasional brown cane from them - but at least they are surviving

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    If the ones in potting mix are thriving and even the Fortuniana ones in the garden are dying, you need to get a soil test. Also I would excavate to see if the builder filled over concrete rubble or something like that. Sometimes people even find buried concrete slabs a foot or two down. Or maybe you have a high water table during the rainy season.

  • amberroses
    10 years ago

    There is a fungus or bacteria that attacks the middle of the cane and quickly spreads to kill it. This happens almost overnight. The green leaves on the top of the cane shrivel and a blackness spreads over the cane. Last year this happened to about three of my roses. I know this happened to a few other Florida growers too. I don't know what the culprit is, but it seems to occur in hot, humid, wet weather. Thankfully, I didn't have that problem this year.

    Also, last year a few of my established roses declined over the summer and failed to revive. I removed them. It was even more rainy, hot, and humid than usual last year. This seemed to be a problem with the roots or the graft. I think that when it is extra wet, humid, and hot the roots boil and rot in the sandy soil. This year, the roses seem to be recovering from summer.

  • rosaholicme
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Amber, I think you've hit the nail on the head. But what is the remedy for this fungus, and can I replant in the same spots without worry? Perhaps I should consult with my local agricultural people to see if there is a solution to the problem

  • jacqueline9CA
    10 years ago

    Exactly what Amber described happened in my garden too - I lost about half a dozen roses in an astonishingly short period of time, two of which were very old and huge. After researching all over, and looking carefully at a few other roses which were starting to show the same symptoms, I have decided it is a very bad attack of "downey mildew".

    I went to the best nursery we have, and they had some anti-fungal products which specifically said they work on downey mildew. I used a soil drench and also a spray on either the bare places where the dead roses had been taken out, or the still alive roses which were showing symptoms (after cutting off all of the canes showing those spreading dark marks on them, of course).

    I also went on the internet and got some sort of biological thingy that was supposed to re-establish the good soil stuff that fights off the mildew in the soil, and used that as a drench on the empty places a couple of months after using the chemicals.

    Well, it's been a year now and I can report:

    1) The live roses I treated are still alive, with no signs of the disease. One of them got it again (it seems to travel down canes from the tips), but I cut it back more, sprayed it again, and it finally got better.

    2) I have not seen more symptoms on any of my roses.

    3) After waiting about another 6 months, I re-planted the bare spots, and the new roses have not gotten infected.

    Look up downey mildew on the internet - there is tons of info about it, pictures, etc.

    Jackie

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    But if Amber's disorder happened in hot weather, it probably isn't downy mildew, which is chronic only in areas that don't get hot, like coastal southern California.

  • jacqueline9CA
    10 years ago

    That's interesting, Michael - we do get very hot in our long dry Summers here, but often have cool wet Springs. As I recall, most of the roses I lost initially were in the middle of their Spring flush (to add insult to injury!). So, perhaps the weather got hot & dry and solved the problem, not me and all of my efforts?

    Jackie

  • henryinct
    10 years ago

    That sounds to me like canker. You normally need a wound so I would look very hard for one. It doesn't have to be very big. Back in CT canker was prevalent in the spring but it would also occur anytime when there are prolonged wet conditions which of course favor any fungus disease.

  • lookin4you2xist
    10 years ago

    Henry,
    It is not canker. I have had the same problem in St. Petersburg for years. I do not know what it is either. It has not mattered if my plant is on Fortuniana (grafted by me, or otherwise) or if it is on it's own roots.
    Sorry, I can not help. I do not spray. It hasn't happened to a slew of plants. I first noticed it about 6-7 ? years ago.

  • kentucky_rose zone 6
    10 years ago

    I have a similar problem, too, for several months. It appears at the prune site. I wipe the pruners with alcohol or very dilute bleach and try to prune the area again when I find it. The brown/black area works its way down the cane if left alone. Sometimes I have noticed that it turns yellow first. Yes, I would like to know the cause, too.

    Here is a link that might be useful: GardenWeb

  • mori1
    10 years ago

    In the span of two weeks, I lost Sonia and Jack Frost. Not sure what happened both are different beds. Always use alcohol when pruning. Sonia will be easy to replace but Jack Frost not so much.

  • floridarosez9 Morgan
    10 years ago

    I have had a similar issue which started in my Belinda's Dreams and spread to other roses. Mine started when the Belinda's were in full bud in the spring, and suddenly all that beautiful new growth wilted down as though they needed watering. By the next day they were crispy brown. It did no good to prune down to good wood, as the cane just continued to blacken and die from the top down. It never starts from the bottom. I have never found a diagnosis for it, but sure would like to.

  • floridarosez9 Morgan
    10 years ago

    I forgot to say, Copper fungicide helps if I catch it early. When this first started happening, DH was very ill, and frankly, I didn't realize how serious it was until too late.

  • kentucky_rose zone 6
    10 years ago

    I started noticing mine shortly after seeing the stink bugs and same thing last year. Could the stink bugs be the problem or bring the problem in?

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    There is a terrible disease resembling fire blight--bacterial blight of rose, caused as I recall by phytopthera bacteria. It causes wilting and death of new growth with black streaking, also oozing sores on the lower bark, and finally death of the affected canes. The treatment is copper spray along with systemic copper applied as a soil drench (Phyton 27).

    Also verticilium wilt is a possible cause, producing wilted tips, yellowing and death of the foliage, and death of the cane. It usually affects one or two canes at a time.

    I would take some samples to the county agent and have the state path lab give you a real diagnosis.

  • rosaholicme
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I have noticed that there is a more than normal proliferation of lizards in my garden this year and I wonder if they play a part in transmitting disease from one plant to another. JUST A THOUGHT!

  • Campanula UK Z8
    10 years ago

    mmm. I immediately thought of one of the wilts. Any fungal disease has implications for replanting. A soil test is the way to go.

  • Campanula UK Z8
    10 years ago

    Do you still have the dead/dying roses? If so, a root/soil exploration would be worth doing...and also check the vascular system of the canes - cut across a cane and strip a layer of bark down some of the length, just under the outer cambium layer - are there signs of fungal attack (white, powdery mould, brown rings girdling the cane diameter, yeasty smell?)
    Any sign of a fungal mycelium in the soil. Black bootlace fruiting bodies? Armilleria or honey fungus?

  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
    10 years ago

    Michael

    What would be a possible treatment for verticilium wilt, and is there any reason it would be more prevalent on store-bought pots (or mail order bareroots) than own-root bands and younger plants? I call this "the Black Finger of Death", and I've learned to expect this process on virtually every potted or bareroot rose I buy, except the ridiculously healthy ones like Easy Elegance and the like. It doesn't sound like fire blight (no oozing) and it happens all of our very dry and hot summer (not likely to be downy mildew), so verticilium wilt is my present best guess.

    In my case, whenever I buy a bareroot rose even from the best of vendors and plant it during early to mid-spring, I look at every cane and know none of them will still be here in a few months. Every single existing cane will probably die off with this gradual yellowing-browning-black progression, and trimming below the damage will not help however well I sanitize the pruners or the cut surface. The only thing that makes the rose survive is if I can get it to put out new basal canes before the graft croaks, and then those new canes almost never show this pattern and the rose is usually fine from now on.

    Is this something that roses in crowded environments pick up from the conditions in a crowded warehouse or retail store? I mostly buy potted roses from a particularly good nursery in town, but even a huge 10 gallon pot with 8 healthy canes can be reduced to a single one-cane wonder pretty quickly. Sometimes it's my impulsive ShopKo purchase, where they only have a few roses and don't know how to prune them (so they don't), where the potted rose keeps its canes.

    If it's the pruning that causes the wilt, why does my pruning not seem to cause it in the rest of my roses, however old or finicky they are, and it almost always seems to cause it when pruned by someone else (however knowledgeable) in a warehouse or store? And of course, any way to save these bareroot or potted roses ahead of time? I buy from Pickering and Palatine and all the good bareroot companies, and I can't blame them for the rose death since I know they're providing it good care. It's a process that happens after it arrives in my yard, and I'd love some ideas to stop it.

    Bottom line from reading this thread though, roseaholicme, is that you're not alone and it's a tricky problem for rose growers in home gardens.

    Cynthia

  • floridarosez9 Morgan
    10 years ago

    Michael, what is the difference between regular copper fungicide and the Phyton 27? Out of desperation I've been drenching with regular copper fungicide. I'd never heard about the Phyton 27?

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    Phyton 27 works as a systemic drench because it is water soluble. Not all copper fungicides are water soluble.

    Phyton 27 is the recommended treatment for verticillium wilt. It is commonly used to treat infected japanese maples, which are highly susceptible.

    Cynthia,

    I suspect this is verticillium because you report that roses can recover from it. I have seen this happen. (It must be owing to an immune response.) Could it be that your grafted plants get it because multiflora is more susceptible than average? I have had verticillium on three plants (I think; only one was professionally diagnosed), and all three were on multiflora. (This is not much of a sample.) The disease must be in my soil, but it doesn't seem to have affected other roses.

    Roses accumulate sulfur in their vascular system as a defense against systemic fungi, so be sure your soil has adequate sulfur.

    (I seem to be infected with parenthesisosis today.)

    This post was edited by michaelg on Mon, Oct 28, 13 at 11:10

  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
    10 years ago

    Hmm, thanks for the response, Michael. It's at least nice to have a name for this. I don't think it's the multiflora influence, since by far the quickest grafted roses to die from this Black Finger of Death have been on Dr. Huey (Regan's, Edmunds, David Austin, local nursery). I like the idea of the roses taking up sulfur as a preventative defense, and since our soil is fairly alkaline it wouldn't be a bad idea in general to go ahead and plant them with some soil sulfur. I keep it around anyway for the blueberries, so it's easy and doesn't involve spraying (which I avoid like the plague).

    Once again, thanks for a thoughtful and practical response. (Parenthesisiosis strikes again - must be contagious through the web). I'll post pictures this summer if it seems to make a difference

    Cynthia

  • hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
    10 years ago

    Since the OP is in Florida, maybe check with Dr. Malcom Manners at Florida Southern College? He posts on this forum very occasionally.

  • floridarosez9 Morgan
    10 years ago

    Thank you, Michael.

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    OK, I'll discard the multiflora hypothesis.

    About sulfur, sulfates such as epsom salt or gypsum would be more accessible for the plant than elemental sulfur, which is insoluble. Roses apparently know how to reduce sulfate to sulfur.

  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
    10 years ago

    Interesting, Michael - I thought epsom salts were mostly for replacing trace elements of magnesium, and weren't generally recommended for alkaline soils. Since sulfur reduces alkalinity, I would never have thought of either gypsum or epsom salts for this purpose. Still, the bottom line effect is the same, to add something simple to the soil when planting. Certainly epsom salts are cheap, and since I don't add other synthetic fertilizer more than once a year I don't have to worry too much about salt build-up in the soil given a one-time application at planting.

    Would there be any purpose in adding the epsom salts at planting for roses in which I don't get a high occurrence of the V. wilt, such as most own-root roses? I'm hesitant to add anything unnecessarily chemical to plantings of band plants, since I put them right in the ground and what they most need is water, drainage, and time to grow. Does gypsum/epsom salt "burn" in the way chemical fertilizers can if they're too close to the feeder roots?

    Thanks again for the insightful response, and hopefully this discussion helps the original poster since it sounds like V. wilt may be part of her problem too.

    Cynthia

  • michaelg
    10 years ago

    I don't want to give the impression that I really know what I'm talking about here--I don't think there have been trials that showed adding sulfate would help roses resist V-wilt. But it is true that roses build up sulfur internally as an immune response, and also true that they can't take up elemental sulfur from the soil. If you apply plain sulfur, over months or years, bacteria burn the sulfur and release acid, which then reacts with bases to form soluble, neutral sulfates such as gypsum and epsom salts. Meanwhile the pH goes down. If you want to get sulfur into the plant, it would be more efficient just to add the sulfate to the soil.

    Neither gypsum nor epsom salts will affect pH much or contribute much to the buildup of harmful salts. Epsom salts can be harmful if there is already excess magnesium in the soil.

    Gypsum is slow to dissolve, and four ounces added at planting time would last for a year or two, I think. It wouldn't hurt. I am just speculating that it might help.

  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
    10 years ago

    Thanks for the tips Michael, and it's too late to try to give the impression you DON'T know what you're talking about. I realize these are educated guesses on your part, but I'll take that over many types of "expert" advice that gets published about roses.

    Back to roseaholicme, the original poster - did you get enough information to help with your roses? You got some nice input from Amberroses in Florida about her strategies, and some advice from others for various fungicides that may help. I can't see any way the lizards in your yard would be contributing to the problem. Usually critters respond to food sources, and the fungal or wilt sources are usually spread because of air and weather conditions not critters. The lizards may be attracted to bugs that are more prevalent during various seasons, but it doesn't sound like your problem is bug-related either.

    Hang in there, at the very least keep pruning below the damaged area, and feed with some alfalfa to promote new healthy canes in case the old ones keep showing the problem.

    Cynthia

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