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New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Posted by HerdingCats none (My Page) on
Sun, Oct 14, 12 at 16:06

Part Two: The Saga Continues.

When we last left our heroine Herding Cats, she had been struggling against a newly found addiction to roses. Having inherited her childhood home 18 months ago, when her Dr. said "go sit your garden. Relax outside, recuperate there", he didn't know what would happen.

Neither did she.

Ms. Cats, sitting in the swing on the far back patio (that her best friend bought and set up for her recovery from cancer surgery), sipped a glass of sweet tea, and, muddled by oxycontin and oxycodone, designed an incredible, magical, fairy tale garden to go with her fairytale house.

Once our heroine sobered up, the fuzzy muddled drugged out dream didn't die. Instead, she started researching. And looking at photos. And pretending she actually knew what she was doing. Over a scant few months, she had developed an incredible plan that, if able to be brought to fruition, would bring Heaven into her gardens...

She bought a shovel, and a rake. She also bought a lot of compost, topsoil, mulch, dirt, drip irrigation, and seeds. She started. Little by little, she has begun to terraform her own little corner of the world. Only one problem. She had no roses. She did, however, know enough to realize that Blue Rose Seeds from Ebay were most likely NOT the answers she was looking for. So she searched.

Then, she found the website of her dreams. Gardenweb, more specifically, the Rose forum. In her spare time, she has read each and every page. She's taken notes - more than 30 pages of notes, from such luminaries as Roseseek, Hoovb, Michael, Pappu, and others. She has devoured Paul Zimmerman's videos on YouTube, and began a post.

99 posts later, she has a delivery of 17 5 gals. of roses(*) coming on Tuesday, which she will NOT be prepared for no matter how hard she works between now and then; another 5 roses from Palatine, has planted 5 bands (2 Julia Childs and 3 Ebb Tides) in a small area called Papa's Garden, has started a ton of seeds (Hollyhock and Sweetpea), has acquired and used some fish emulsion, is plotting the feasibility of making a batch of Alfalfa Tea, is desperately trying to avoid purchasing any more roses, and has far more questions than she'll ever get answered.

This is where we pick up the story...at least we don't find our heroine tied to railroad tracks.


(*) The rose list from OttoandSons:
1 New Zealand HT
1 Sea Foam Shrub
2 Wildeve (DA)
2 Gruss an Aachen
2 Teasing Georgia (DA)
2 Crown Princess Margareta
3 Distant Drums (HT)
4 The Fairy Polyantha

Here is a link that might be useful: The first 99 posts...


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Oct 14, 12 at 17:35

Ms. Cats, you make me exhausted just reading all your efforts! But it all truly sounds lovely and I hope we get to see some pictures of that lovely dream garden in the future!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

There are some before pictures, and hopefully, when I find the stupid cord that lets me download the photos, you will get to see the after.

But I have to get to the 'after' part first. LOL...it's daunting. But...it's also something I really, really want to do. It's taking time, hard work, sweat, and lots of research and figuring things out, but it's really neat doing this whole thing.

If I can manage to get it even a bit close to what I imagine it to be, it will be nice...

And, today, I bought an electric tiller off of Amazon. It will be here in about a week, I hope...I just can't manage to use a shovel and a mattox on that barren strip in the back, so maybe a tiller, and then shoveling the loose earth to the side, tilling again, shoveling again, and then tilling a third time will make things easier to loosen/water/plant. It was really inexpensive, too...so if it works as advertised and as reviewed, then I'm a whole lot closer to getting things the way I want them to be, without killing myself with a shovel and pick. LOL.

As for being tired, I agree. I make ME tired. LOL. So I'm going to take a nap, and then relax for the evening. I am going to give myself a pedicure (no point in doing a manicure...hands will take a pounding for the foreseeable future), and watch the Season Premiere of "The Walking Dead." I LOVE that show. I don't like zombies at all, but I love that show.

Yeah, so I'm a tad weird. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Dear Herding,if you are like me, you will find that your favorite garden season is in December through February, and exists solely in your imagination. You start with the memory of the prep work you did during the previous garden season (remember all those seeds?) and the roses that hopefully were planted in the ground in the fall. In the garden of your winter imagination, all the seeds germinated. and none of those were lost because you mistakenly thought they were weeds. Or the cat slept on them. Or the neighbor's brat rode his trike through them. All the roses grew and bloomed with nary a trace of blackspot or Japanese beetles. The garden of your winter's imagination is a wonderful place.

PS, the title of your post suggested you might have questions, but I didn't see any.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

You have spunk that's for sure. We're all happy for you.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I note that you're adding 'Gruss an Aachen', my all-time favorite rose. Now you must find room for 'Pink Gruss an Aachen'. Then you'll want to select the perfect spot in your garden to add the very rare sport, 'Cl. Gruss an Aachen'.

The climber is availabe from Vintage as a custom order . . . Allow me be the first to inform you that Roses Unlimited will be offering Climbing Gruss very soon (perhaps in 2013, but no later than 2014). It's a fairly restrained climber (10-12 ft) that is impressive from the get-go, but only improves with age. I'm growing it on a wide trellis with another favorite, the blue clematis 'H.F. Young'. Smashing!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

NWRoselady, I agree...my imagination is quite fertile, unlike my soil. LOL. I do love dreaming and planning; but I have to say, I am enjoying all the hard labor. It feels good to be up and around, in the sun, sweating...this was a long, tough summer in many ways, and it feels good to just get out and get my hands dirty.

As for questions, I have many. The last thread was full of them, and this one will be, as well. But I was too tired then (and too sated from dinner now) to think of them. But trust me, they will come.

Kit, some call it spunk. Others call it attitude. LOL. I definitely have whatever the thing is that is all about "get to it, 'n' get 'er done." I have always been that way, too, since a young girl. It bugs some folks, but I like what it's done for me over the years...so, spunk, gumption, attitude, whatever it is, I'm very grateful that it's part of my make-up.

Windeaux, can you tell me a bit about Gruss? How big does she grow? I have a spot that needs border roses, and I'm trying to figure out if Gruss will do, or if Wildeve will do, or if I should add a different kind. This is the front bed, which will be the "Pink" bed. It will have St. Cecilia as a main piece, there will be three Distant Drums, a Fragrant Plum, a Betty White, and then either Gruss or Wildeve, as the border on the drive. Behind it, in the corner where the Eden used to be, will go Zephirine Druhin. If the climber were available now, I'd put it up as a continuation of the Gruss row of roses, but I'll make do with Zeffy.

So, the question (see, NW? Here's one!) for now is which will be better at the drive, as a low, pretty, pink rose - the Wildeve or the Gruss. Not positive I have enough with just the two, either...I may need a third one, which I can get onto the delivery if I make the decision tomorrow morning.

So, opinions? Thoughts, ideas, suggestions? I'm open...

I will be planting catmint, english lavender, and salvia, as well as lots of stock and violets and pansies and whatever else looks good to me at the moment; I've got some "Vanilla Berry" nasturtiums that may find a home here, too. I will also be putting some double hollyhocks in this bed, toward the back, behind the Fragrant Plum. I'll also put in some Sweet Peas and let them roam through the bed, and hopefully over the low wall into the walkway.

So...Gruss or Wildeve?

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Forgot to mention. I checked in on the transplants Eden, Soft Whisper, and Midas Touch. Eden and Soft Whisper are doing just fine; Midas Touch is drooping a bit...but no worse than when I moved him today. As I mentioned in the last thread, Midas had a super-poorly developed root system, so I would not be surprised if it doesn't make it.

But Eden and Soft Whisper are doing very nicely, considering the trauma they've experienced. So I'm satisfied...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Forgot to mention. I checked in on the transplants Eden, Soft Whisper, and Midas Touch. Eden and Soft Whisper are doing just fine; Midas Touch is drooping a bit...but no worse than when I moved him today. As I mentioned in the last thread, Midas had a super-poorly developed root system, so I would not be surprised if it doesn't make it.

But Eden and Soft Whisper are doing very nicely, considering the trauma they've experienced. So I'm satisfied...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi again,
I can't imagine 104 degrees today. I definitely would have been relaxing inside, too. We had a lovely day of 75 degrees, but on Tuesday, we're getting 30-40mph winds and pounding rain. Lovely. The last of my roses and snapdragons will be ripped to shreds. I would have just loved a peaceful decline into winter.
You did ask me a question about fertilizers for acid loving plants to use on the Palatine roses. Just look for a granular fertilizer for azaleas, rhododendrons, camellias, etc. The product that will help the most, though, is Hi-Yield Iron+Soil Acidifier. It has nitrogen, iron, and sulfur in it. It's found in nurseries, but probably not big box stores. This stuff brought my Frederic Mistral (on Dr Huey) out of a two year chorosis funk. He was a dejected, horrid bright yellow that was barely growing. You wouldn't believe the difference in this rose that is now about 6 feet wide and tall, and I credit to Hi-Yield. Nothing else was working. Also Rose Tone is just great or any of the Tones. I use Plant Tone because I can get it in the big bags, while Rose Tone is in the smaller bags in this area. I'm going to try to show you one of hollyhocks that I was writing about in the other thread.
Have fun tomorrow with your new roses. Diane


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

HerdingCats: In my garden, 'Gruss an Aachen' maintains a height of 3-4 ft with approximately equal width. I don't know if it grows taller if grafted. Pickering sells GaA on Multiflora, and I think Edmunds' still offers it on Dr Huey. It grows extremely well on its own roots. Also, I find it to be among the easiest of roses to propagate from cuttings.

I'm not at all knowledgeable about Austins, so I can't comment on how GaA might compare with 'Wildeve'.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

  • Posted by hoovb z9 Southern CA (My Page) on
    Mon, Oct 15, 12 at 10:07

Gruss here is a dainty perfect 3x3 globe. Wildeve is a typical Austin octopus, though a little on the small size, 4'x6'-8'

Sounds like we've been a terrible influence. ;*)


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

No, Hoov...everyone's been an enormously wonderful influence. Just wonderful. I was going to get to this labor of love anyway, it's just now I've had the confidence (or cocky-ness?) to give it a go right now.

Gruss and Windeaux, thanks soo much for the info. I appreciate it greatly!

So Gruss seems to maintain herself with a nice globe of about 3-4 feet all around. Wildeve seems to get wild...4 foot tall by 6-8 foot long. Given that, I think what I'm going to do is go with the original plan of Gruss in the front bed, with Wildeve in the backyard nestled into the agapanthas, with quite a few other DAs (teasing Georgia and CPM), and some other climbers.

Diane, I'm so sorry to hear of the storm coming through...although I admit to some jealousy inasmuch as it will be cooler, at least, than what I'm expecting this week. I will need to get some acid food for some rhododendrons that will be put in the front area by the alley, so I'll get something that works for both. If I end up with chlorosis, I'll switch to Hi-Yield, unless that's on the shelf already (which it may be when I go shopping).

Plant Tone is the same, or close enough, to Rose Tone to use interchangeably? I'd read somewhere that Holly Tone and Rose Tone were, but if Plant Tone is the same/close, I can get the bigger bag (which I need) at a better savings than buying the smaller bags of Rose Tone. Huh. Who knew?

As for those Hollyhocks - oh man, I'd love to have those to look at, backing the garden and running up the drive (the house is very close to the drive).

I'm still struggling to figure out what I'm going to put in the drive...it's a spare 2 foot wide, and I've used it as my veggie area (which works well, actually). I may keep it as the veggie garden...dunno just yet. There's a giant tree there, although the sun does not get blocked...it's so tall and the branches are so high up that there is definitely room and sun enough for other things.

And the Pot Ghetto will go right outside my kitchen door, for the nonce. Once I get all of the roses into the ground, I will claim that area for something pretty and growing...but I don't know what yet.

Man, this is fun. All these changes, and all the promise of gorgeous flowers, and all the work...yes, this is fun.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats,

When I have a group of plants in pots,I usually say I am watching their growth a bit before I decide if the place I picked is right for them... Then I don't worry if it takes extra time for me to get them in the ground. Right now I have 2 lilacs and 3 hibiscus, plus 3 thorny roses and the 3 large cuttings-hopefully I will have "decided" on them later this week....lol

After a trip to Otto after some fruit trees (oops was that a couple of roses that jumped on my cart!)

I hope you have some good long gloves for the Ottos Austins, mine have all been a good 3 feet wide


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Kippy, I'm sorry. What? The DA's from Otto "arrive" at three feet, or grow to three feet?

I, too, have two lilacs (one Lavender Lady, one Angel Face) that are waiting for their perfect spots. I have two different areas that I'm turning into "Holding Areas" (erm, the Ghetto) for the roses, as I need to finish working the ground in one area, and figure out the placement I want for the others.

And yes, go get the fruit trees, and if roses volunteer to come home with you, call it Fate. Kismet. Karma. Just don't call it addiction. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats...they may arrive at 3' feet wide. I know I have several at that size, a couple closer to 2 feet side and one closer to 4' Can make getting them out of the pot and in the ground a bit of a challenge.

I don't know what the lilacs I have are called, I picked them up as dug up root suckers from a lady on craigslist. I started with 4 thinking surely a couple of them would not make it to start out with and I would have back-ups. All 4 are doing fine so now I need to decide what to do with a couple of extra lilacs.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Oh. Dear. Ah. Well then. At least I'll have an idea of what they'll look like, right? Oh. Wow.

Well, I suppose that's the reason I got the 5 gals, right? I mean, those were on sale, so that's actually why I purchased them at 5 gal, but at least I'll be able to see where they fit nicely in the overall plan.

Are the Otto HTs as large?

As for lilacs, I got these both from recommendations from Descanso Gardens. Lilacs need a lot of chill hours, but both of these were developed by Descanso, and don't need the chill hours of the regular lilacs, so they should work all right here. I've got a great spot for them - the Lavender Lady should get to about 15 feet, and my backside neighbor can see straight into the yard and house from their second story, so I'm hoping that eventually, this tree will block their view and also block *my* view of the junk they have stored between their garage and the fence. Right now, I look out at a bright red Mustang hood and fender. It's been there for years, so I doubt they'll be doing anything with it...so I want to block it out. I'm hoping the lilac is up to the task.

As to being careful about the thorns, I moved a 6 foot tall Eden with very nicely developed thorns on her nicely developed canes...I got a scratch or two, but nothing too bad. Do the DAs have worse thorns? (I suppose I'll find out tomorrow...)

YAY! Tomorrow!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats

I usually stick to just one section when I go to Ottos, figure my wallet thanks me. Well I walk the fruit trees too but have not picked one yet. Was waiting to see how the fruit was on our own trees after one more year of care.

The 5g Austins that I have bought, I think they keep them in their back lot in those 5g pots, so the plants look a couple of years or older. I have stuck with the "smaller" Austins for the most part. But the bigger ones are similar in size when I see them in the sales area.

I have high hopes for the Lilacs. The lady I got them from just lives a few miles away and her "tree" is very pretty. Her dad also wrote on gardening topics about the same time as my dad, so who knows where that plant originally came from. I may end up with one of the Lilacs down in the lower garden, but they are still babies so not quite ready to put them down there where I have to worry about the chickens picking off all the leaves. I am hoping my chill hours will be enough, she is a bit closer to a cool zone, so I might be out of luck.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats. First, I must commend you on your "attitude" as you call it. You include a single sentence about coming back from cancer surgery, and I'm sure it is no small thing. You are taking the bull by the beitsim, and diving into a very physically intensive, and simultaneously highly healing venture. Bless you.

I started in a strangely similar place 3 years ago. Except my pain was a foreclosure, and I too strangely inherited a fairly tale place that long ago had had beautiful flowers, but had sat dormant for many years, and was overrun by neck high weeds.

It has been clear to me over the past 3 years that the goal is not the end result, but the continuous journey. Every season has its magic. Summer - survival, Fall, reaping some benefit of keeping things alive through summer and preparation, Winder is of dreaming, Spring is simply awe and wonder. Always is the time for additions, preening, pampering, pruning, weeding, fertilizing, and just sitting back in amazement at how things are coming along, and always seeing past what is already there. The sweat, and dirt is heaven on earth, the bugs, and birds, and spiders, and all of natures little creatures - some that delight, and others that annoy the living heck out of us.

I love my hollyhocks as backgrounds to the roses. Not sure how similar your climate in S. CA is to my inland N. CA climate, but I find that mums, dahlias, cape plumbago, geraniums, and amazingly succulents right there nested in with the roses are super happy and simple for me. But then I am in sand, and you are not, so I may be giving you poor suggestions!

Looking forward to the saga continuing. Keep singing, and stay off those tracks.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Harmony, what a sweet, delightful post. Yes, it's been a tough go - actually two cancer surgeries, 1 week a part. And possibly more in the relatively near future. But I don't pay attention to that...instead, I create and dream and plant and get out there and enjoy myself and get dirty and sweaty and absolutely delighted at what little progress I've made so far.

And it indeed is about the journey...not the destination. I suspect that even when I'm "done", it will be that I'm "done" for that moment...not much longer than that. I'm already trying to figure out what I'm going to put in some fairly heavy shade areas...and one other area that seems fairly fertile, but has nothing but ivy and air-fern and umbrella bushes (don't know the real name) there...and then there's the spot where...well, you get the idea. LOL.

And can I tell you a secret? I'm not so sure I'm in clay as much as I thought. I know the whole area at the fence in front is sandy, and the walkway and front of the house are not clay...and the strip at the alley doesn't appear to be clay...so I'm not at all sure I was correct in saying 'clay'...although it may be.

In other words, suggest away!

OH, and guess what? LOL. I went to my local specialty shop to look at what they have available (I was looking for Lisianthus...). While there, I got to talking to the owner, and about the roses I've got coming tomorrow. I mentioned "Distant Drums"...and she hadn't heard of them. So she grabbed her lappie, and looked them up, and is going to get some to carry in her store this coming spring. She asked, if my DDs got to growing well, if she could come by and look at them, so she could see how they work in this immediate area, and I told her sure...no problem.

I left the nursery without any lisianthus, but with more lavender (I can't say no, ever), and some Black Eyed Susans, an Echinacea which is pink and yellow. She said she'd be getting more echinaceas in this week, so to come by late Friday and see if they look good. She's going to be ordering many different kinds, and if I get there on Friday, I can have "pick of the litter." I *do* like coneflower...and some of the colors nowadays are striking and so neat in this flower.

I am going to transplant some seedlings (Sweet pea and hollyhock) tomorrow while I'm waiting on the delivery...they're very ready indeed.

Oh, the journey. Yes, I'll keep singing, and no, I will make it a point to avoid all railroad tracks...unless there's a gorgeous hero around. Then maybe...just maybe. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats, how would 'Hellebore's' go in the shady area. Love your title and your way with words.

Regards David.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi Herding,
I've got to stay away from this thread--it's truly addicting, but so inspiring to share your gardening journey.
I think you'll like those coneflowers and black eyed susans. My garden is full of them, and they are dependable and have such long bloom seasons. My favorite rudbeckia (BES) is Indian Summer. It's not a true perennial in some areas, but it reseeds like crazy, and its blooming season is second only to my snapdragons. Some complain about the reseeding--I just look at it as an opportunity for free plants. And since my color scheme in front is purple and yellow/gold (like your Papa's garden), it's a real plus with the purple coneflowers--which, guess what, also reseed wonderfully, and can be transplanted all over the place. It just dawned on me that you may know all this already--oh well. Coneflowers and rudbeckia may not be exotic and for the plant snob, but they are the workhorses, along with snapdragons, hollyhocks, and other old fashioned flowers in my garden, and I love them. Diane


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats, are you saying your vegetable garden runs beside your driveway? That's something I wouldn't do myself, because the exhaust from your car gets on the veggies, as does tire dust when you use your brakes. The cancer hospital here tells people not to walk in streets because of the tire dust, it hangs in the air and is a cancer causer.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Yes, eahamel, it runs down the driveway. Which is always too crowded with dogs and various other things to actually drive my car down it. LOL. However, and in hopes that someday I will actually get to use the garage for a car, I have been considering moving it. The problem is, of course, where.

Don't dare go absent, Diane. LOL. And don't assume I know anything about anything gardening related. I am abjectly lacking in any real knowledge of a garden other than it has dirt and needs water.

And if folks don't like rudbeckia, snaps, coneflowers, and other "normal" flowers, they don't have to come to see mine, yanno? LOL. I don't care if others find them "common..." I don't, and I like them, and so they'll go in.

David, I've been thinking about Hellebores, but I know far less about them than I do about roses; and, as you can see, that means I had to check the spelling, as that's as far as my knowledge reaches. I am thinking of those, along with perhaps some begonias, and of course hydrangeas and calla lilies. I also was thinking about hostas, but am not sure I know enough about them either.

Suppose it wouldn't hurt to stop looking at roses for a day and research other things, right? LOL...(and thanks for the compliment about my "way with words." I love to read, and, as is abundantly apparent, I type fairly quickly. I'm Irish, so my talking translates to long, long posts. LOL)

I will be calling Otto and Sons shortly to see when I can expect my delivery. One absolute must do in the morning before they come is clear the lawn of dog poop. I'm pretty good about doing it anyway, but I really don't want the delivery guys walking through the grass at my directions and having to take home a Newfoundland dog poop. Those things are GIANT and STINKY. So I'll make sure the grass is cleared of landmines.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Oh, glory. Delivery between 8:30 and 9 am my time. Tee hee, yayayayay...

Got a call though that the New Zealand HT was not available...it didn't "look good enough" so they called and told me they'd rather not send it out. How cool is that? I thought about adding a different rose, maybe another Distant Drum, but decided (with Bob's encouragement) to hold off until spring; since they're out of a rose I'm holding two spots for anyway, I'll have to go up late March and get them...might as well get a full choice from new stock, as he put it.

I mean, after all, it's not like I won't have something to do for weeks, right? LOL.

And I wasn't married to New Zealand...it was more of an afterthought, more of a filler from available inventory which, at this time of year, is limited. So, I'll wait.

They have a class in January about roses, and suggested several times that I go. It's a small charge, and a two hour lecture, and is held several times in January starting Jan. 5th), so I'll definitely go. Kippy, wanna come too? Anyone else in the area wanna go? That'd be fun...even in January.

And, the electric tiller will come on Saturday, just in time for the cool-down. So I will be able to get that area worked out hopefully Saturday and Sunday, and get the roses in that area happy. I will make sure that I get a bunch of new soil and compost and mulch, and also get some horse poop, so I'll be all set for the back yard.

Woot. WOOT! Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow...how sweet it will be to see all those 5 gals. lining my yard in the general area that will be their final homes. I suspect that by the end of the day, my arms will be sore from moving them here, there, and just..over...there....one more time.

Hee heeeeee....singin' and dancin' tomorrow morning (if I wake up in time...otherwise, I'll be mumbling and grumbling and sucking down coffee...).

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats, if you're interested in Hellebores, you'll need to check more than the spelling -- they don't do well in warm climates at all. They need a cold winter dormancy, and mild temps.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

LOL, that will leave me out totally. No such thing as cold winter dormancy here at all. Here, even the bears want a shave in winter. I think we get "cold" for about 12 minutes sometime in late January...and the heat we tolerate on a regular basis (let's see...mid-October, it's 104* and 98* for the week's daytime high and low...).

No wonder I've never seen a Hellebore out here.

But I still need to think about those shade spots. Hydrangeas can only do so much, you know?

I did draw up a map for the delivery folks tomorrow. It should make things easier if I know where everything goes, right? So I wrote it out...hahahaaaaa.....heeeeeeehehehheee the roses are coming tomorrow morning.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

There's a nursery here that has been selling hellebores in the winter. I asked the manager if they would survive our hot summers and he just glared at me and walked off.

Shade. Gardenias would work. A brugmansia might, too, and they can take a lot of sun. Gingers. Ferns. Aspidistra. Firespike. Those would work for shade, and I'm sure other people have suggestions, too. I think there's a shade forum, you might want to look at, too.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I saw the pretty hellebores here too this last year, never noticed them before.

Pretty, but I wanted to do some checking before my checkbook saw them....sounds like a good thing!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hello again,
Here I am back with suggestions for your shady area. Do you know about hardy geraniums? They are the true geraniums (cranesbill), rather the ones we so often call geraniums in this country and which are actually pelargoniums. Now you are confused...Anyway, there is an outstanding hardy geranium called Rozanne which blooms for months on end with little care, except for some shade and, of course, a good watering. It's bluish with a slight purplish tinge. A second shade lover is brunnera, also called false forget me not, or heart leaf. This plant is so gorgeous in spring with its blue cloud of forget me not like flowers hovering above the heartshaped leaves. As the season progresses, the beautiful leaves grow larger until they are huge. Brunnera loves shade, and will slowly spread. And believe me, everyone who sees your plant in bloom will want a chunk of it to start their own. Rock cress does well in the shade, low growing and spreading slowly, covered with purplish or pink flowers depending on the variety in early spring. Campanula (bell flowers) like some shade. My favorite is good old Blue Chip, a purplish blue, that forms a nice mound, perfectly shaped, and when it blooms it's covered in little bells. When the blooms dry up, just shear them off, and get ready for another round of blooming. I actually grow Blue Chip in the sun with excellent results, but I think in your climate it would need some shade.
Well, it's very late, so I'm off for now. Have an exciting Tuesday. Diane


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Camelias. Now, you only get 1/4 year of bloom, and they are quite slow growing, but they are so beautiful, and in my intensely shady area are the only thing green that flowers, and doing well. I have lots of different succulents on the outskirts of the shade, so they get a few hours of sunlight a day but that's about it. To my surprise they are quite happy campers. I have one hydrangea (the third I'm trying here - the first two died) - and it's ... well ... it's still alive. I keep letting it dry out too much for its taste (makes the roses look very non-thirsty). I tried azaleas - they refuse to grow in my soil no matter how much acid loving anything I give them.

I've started putting down stepping stones, and sitting areas - cute stone and wood things to make it look more inviting which is helping a lot.

I've heard Impatiens sodenii "Madonna" thrives in the shade. I've just never gotten around to ordering her.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Morning chores are complete - all 12 critters fed, watered, and happy...yard has been semi-cleared of landmines. I'm on my second cup of coffee...

And I'm watching the time.

Tick-tock...tick tock...

I'm so excited. A little scared, considering Kippy's post about the size of these roses. LOL. But excited. I've got soooo much still to do before I get them into the ground.

Oh, man. I'm thinking both "what have I done??" and "Waaaahhhhhoooooooo!". It will be interesting to see how overwhelmed I feel in about oh, 90 minutes.

I'll be back once the roses are here...I have to get changed and out into the garden, move the car so they have access to the back yard, and then...wait. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

So. They're here. I have a forest of roses now.

And am I in love? Absolutely. Totally. The Distant Drums are an incredible rose face to face. GanA is far bigger than I anticipated. I understand what people mean now by David Austin's Octopus tendencies...oh yes I do.

No, Kippy. They're not three feet. Not hardly. I'm 5'7". The HT's I received - the smallest comes to chest high on me - probably about 4.5 feet. The DAs Teasing Georgia and CPMarg. both come to my chest, but spread at least as wide again, with two of the bushes throwing a cane each that reach probably 6 foot. The Wildeves are smaller. Smaller comparatively. They, too, have canes and a reach; not as much (thank you, God), but still a reach and definitely belong in the back yard and not the front.

The Faity is the daintiest, most "frail" looking rose I think I've ever seen, but it's a solid, thatchy bush already. 4 of them in a line will absolutely make the alley area unpalatable, as well as gorgeous. They really are as delicate and fragile appearing as a Fairy!

I can't believe how big and healthy these bushes are. I don't think I expected these; I've never dealt with a healthy, happy rose...and I hope desperately that I can keep them as happy as they are right now. And these aren't "full grown", from what I understand. What are they going to be like once they're settled in and happy, and full grown?

I am, indeed, overwhelmed. I am also thrilled, and excited, and think that my gardens just took huge steps forward. I don't know what to do now. I don't know where to start! LOL.

I will say that I went through each bush, gave it copious amounts of water, clipped broken stems and faded roses...they were all terribly thirsty and had been cooped up in the truck, so they all need to spread out and drink. I have untangled a few of them, and will get to the rest of it later tonight or tomorrow.

Oh, man...the drug addled dream is showing up in my back yard! WOOOOOOOT!!!!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats...Guess I should have mentioned I was not including the pot :)

I am so looking forward to photos!!!!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I can't stay out of the garden. I keep going out and checking on how they're faring, how they're relaxing and stretching out. And they're all doing fine.

I am sooooo thrilled with these roses. I knew I'd like the DAs - I've never seen them in person, but I've always loved the shape and the appearance of them in photos.

But they are better than I ever anticipated. And thornier. LOL. But the form of these roses - Teasing Georgia and CP Margareta - are absolutely gorgeous. What's fascinating to me is the size of the bush, and the size of the blooms...I can't imagine how big they'll be when the bush matures.

They droop, cascade, and also stand up. It's such a neat way to have a bush!!

And the Distant Drums have already gathered several comments from my walking neighbors...one, a dear friend (and the one I'm getting the PJP for), came all the way up to the bushes, and just looked and said "I can't even begin to describe them. Like a sunset. Luminous and glowing and like a sunset. Or a sunrise." I thought that was a pretty good description indeed.

Oh, I'm just thrilled. I can't wait until Saturday when I get my electric tiller and can start working on the back. I am expecting that I'll start planting at least the Fairy group and the Distant Drum group tomorrow, but I may hold off - we're supposed to get some Santa Ana's come through over the next 36 hours, and those are drying winds indeed. So I may just wait, give them a ton of water, and wait until it's a bit more favorable condition to plant them.

Still and all, I can't wait to see them in the ground. I'm just so thrilled.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

OK. Here come the questions. LOL.

So, what is the BEST way to plant these roses? I've got DAs, HTs, and polyantha...is there something different for each of them? They are all in 5 gal containers right now.

~What about the bud union in my area? At soil level, below, above?

~Amendments in the hole? Bone meal, Rose Tone, banana peels, a cup of coffee?

~Compost in the hole, mixed with the dirt to fill the hole, only surrounding the plant after it's moved in?

~Fertilizing in my zone? How often? How much? What?

~Initial watering: how much, drip irrigation, sprinkler, hand water?

~The latest time for an alfalfa tea in my zone (we have a 12 month growing season...)? Ingredients in the alfalfa tea? (I've read tons of threads on Alf. Tea, and there are various ideas for what goes in a tea).

~Fish emulsion/Neptune's Harvest: the last time to fertilize this year?

Here is the initial plan.

Get them into the ground as quickly as possible; some of the roots are out of the bottom of the containers already, so they need to get settled into a home ASAP.

No pruning this year, except to deadhead and to gently shape. Once they've settled in, and are happy, I'll lightly prune in January.

Other than that...I need directions and help. Explicit directions, and as much help as you can give.

I really want these roses to stay as pretty as they are (or get prettier), but I'm terrified that I'll kill them.

Thanks SOOOO much...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Anyone? Beuller?

LOL, I figured I'd bore you all fairly quickly. I will say I've begun to solve the really-partial shade area...I got a killer deal on a Black&Decker Electric Pruner, reach of 14 feet...retails $130+. But since I got the display one, and it was kind of beat up (but works just fine), I only paid $75 for the whole thing. So tomorrow, one of the "get 'er done" chores will be to open up the canopy and get some more light in the alley area...and then in the back yard, and then...never give me a power tool. I get very happy. I can easily see going down to my neighbors to volunteer to prune their tree. LOLOL.

And the electric tiller will be here on Saturday, so I'll be starting the backyard in earnest then.

But in the mean time, I want to get those gorgeous Distant Drums in, and if anyone has time to give my questions (in the post above) a go, I'd very much appreciate it.

Hope everyone had a great Wednesday. Of course, being Wednesday, it's never actually "great", but I hope everyone had as "great" a day as possible.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

You would be amazed what a 50 year old woman can do with a Ryobi Sawsall......hehehe (okay i was not 50 when I started...but still)


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Right? I mean, seriously. Why didn't we start with these power tools a LONG time ago? I'm thinking about getting a miter saw. I want to replace the backyard gate, build some raised beds, build up a good potting/work bench, and do some other woodwork around here. I don't want to pay the price for someone else to do it; I figure, even with the price of a miter saw (about $140 or so) and the costs of lumber, I can do it more economically and be able to do exactly what I want, and not settle for something lots of other folks have already.

So...yeah, a miter saw is next on the list.

I have also figured out what to do about that heavy shade area in the backyard. It's along the back of the garage, and it's almost like a second yard...you can't see it much from the house, and have to go down the walkway...and then, voila, it's there.

That's where my swing is, and my little "far back" patio. What I will add to the wall behind the garage (faces east, but has near total tree coverage) is put in a wee little surprise "room". Put a fountain (probably a bell fountain) flanked by hydrangeas, gardenias (apparently this is the perfect spot for gardenias), and maybe a rhododendron or somesuch. I'll add a small, light windchime set, and put an old fashioned bench near the fountain.

It will be a little "nook" in the back area, and it will not be able to be seen from the house. So it would be a "surprise" once you get back there and find it. I think I'll place the bench so it faces the DA roses across the yard, so one can sit there and admire the roses, while smelling a gardenia or two, and being surrounded by the prettiness of a hydrangea.

Yes, friends and neighbors, terraforming is proceeding apace.

Also, Diane, I got some blue plumbago today off the sale bench. 2 1gals. for 3 bucks each. I wouldn't have thought of it without your suggestion, so thank you. I'm sure it's just summer-sour, and will do fine once it gets into the garden. It looks sad and scary, but there are some good, strong green stuff under the wasted stuff, so it should recover nicely. I'm thinking of putting it down under the Eden roses on the front fence. That would be a nice contrast to the cream and pink of the Eden, and not overwhelm things, and will help keep the soil where it's supposed to be and not all over the sidewalk. LOL.

We'll see...that may not be their home...but I'll see where they belong. They'll tell me.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

This woman is tiiiiiiiiirrrrrreeeeedddd right now. LOL.

I got into the garden about 8:30 or so. I shoveled out a 3x5 part of the front bed, turned it with compost and mulch (and cut out a ton of roots), then planted the three Distant Drums with two handfuls of Rose Tone and one scant handful of bone meal in the hole.

Then, I watered them very thoroughly, and watered all the rest of the potted roses. I soaked thoroughly the Eden, Midas Touch, and Soft Whisper, all new plantings (Eden was transplanted from pot to spot).

I potted up my Zeffy (a band) in a big, big pot (that held the Eden rose that grew so nicely; same spot, too) along with a stake. Put in new drip irrigation to Zeffy, the Portlandia, and the CPM, all in pots, in that little cove between the chimney and the rest of the house. I'm a tad worried about my Ginger Syllabub; she's not showing the new growth that the other bands are. I may need to put her somewhere else; she has enough of everything, so maybe she needs some "alone time". LOL.

I trimmed down two very unhappy potted lavenders, and put them both into the ground. I stripped the trimmed stalks that were still all right, and stuck them in the ground at various places in my yard. I planted two echinaceas, three rudbeckias, and one fragrant stock.

I re-tied to the fence the new Eden transplant, who seems to be all right; some yellow leaves, but not many, and I've noticed some new growth. So I'm thinking it's just a bit of shock, and shortly she'll put out a lot of new growth. But I did re-tie her, because I had only tied loosely and it was time to tie a tad more firmly.

I also planted the odd pansy, some salvia, and some other plants (which I forget the name of right now). Made sure the Fairys and the Sea Foam were trimmed of all dead roses, and checked to see that they were stretching out and relaxing. They are. I watered them thoroughly, and then watered the bougainvilla which is off to the side. I'm thinking that the blue plumbago will go in that general area, as the blue would play very nicely with the pink of the Fairy, the white of Sea Foam, and be a nice underplanting for a brilliant magenta bougainvilla.

I also put into place three more foxgloves, trimmed some dead calla lily leaves, and trimmed some roots from the calla area.

The I hung the hummingbird feeder and the squirrel feeder in different trees. Made sure both were filled, too.

And, a neighbor came by, and brought her dog (a bull mastiff, sweet as pie). Grace (my Newf) and Romeo (my beagle) had a ball playing with the mastiff, and she commented on how peaceful and charming the backyard is. I haven't even really begun the back - just lined the roses at one side, and cleared some stuff (although a lot more clearing needs to be done).

I was going to transplant some sweet pea and hollyhock seedlings, but I ran out of steam. I really, really just ran out of steam.

I still need to get the backyard roses watered out, but I need to relax right now. I also had to take a percocet because yes, I overdid it. I'll probably grab a shower and then a nap. LOL.

But am I happy? Satisfied? Content with a day's work? YES! LOL. And the Distant Drums are going to be absolutely stunning in the place I've put them, and are such a unique rose. I can't believe how much I like them...

I've also decided to move Queen Elizabeth, but not to the back; I'll keep her in the "Pinks" garden, just move her to the rear of the bed. I may change my mind again, but I'm thinking she's happy in this general area, and she'd be a good "height" giver in the back of the bed out front.

We'll see. Right now, I need lunch, and then a good washing up, and then a nap.

Phew. But happy. :-)

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

You're making me tired just hearing about all you're doing; I so admire your gumption and determination! This will all pay off, and being happy and satisfied is what it's all about... can't tell you how glad I was to retire after 50 years of working in the corporate world, just wish I had done it years ago instead of waiting, as sure don't have the stamina I once had!

Keep up the good work!!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

What energy! The plumbago will be fine, it's hard to kill. And, did you know you can grow more lavender from the cuttings? It's easy, just stick them in a pot and keep watered for a couple of months.

Ogrose, I'm with you, I just retired and have done a ton of work, after some months recovering my energy after being laid off from a job with a boss who hated me. I didn't know how draining his constant harassment was. They asked me to come back part-time, but I declined, and had nightmares for a couple of weeks.

But it would sure be wonderful to have herdingcat's energy!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Yep, know what your saying, eahamel, I worked for the "Boss from Hell" at Occidental Chemical in Dallas, and it does play havoc with the nerves especially when I really had no choice in staying because of insurance for my husband. It all worked out, though, his boss, the CFO, along with some of the attorneys, found a way to get this changed; all of a sudden it was like his meds for anger kicked in, he became a pussy cat. Still, wouldn't go back for anything~ Strangest thing, his wife was the sweetest, nicest person you would ever want to meet (she was an attorney with the company). Go figure.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Eahamel, I hope the plumbago will be fine there...it's in the shady part of the front yard (partial sun, but less rather than more), but I figure if the bougainvilla is doing rather well there, then hopefully the plumbago will, too. It would look nice indeed.

As for energy, nawp. None at the moment. LOL. Still have to get into the backyard and get the new roses watered, but just can't find the energy. I've just brewed a pot of coffee, so I suspect I'll be fine in about 30 minutes.

LOL, I will say that I seriously considered moving Queen lizzy today, but gave up the idea when I thought about the hole she'll need, and the energy it would've taken to dig it. Not there, so voila, she's still sitting in her throne. She'll move over the next week or so, though...

And yes, thanks for the reminder about the lavender. It's supposed to be easy to root, so I did stick about a half dozen goodsize stems from this haircut into the ground in various locations. We'll see if it's as easy as that. They'll get good water and good sun, so if that's all it needs, then I'll be just about set in terms of that. LOL.

And while I completely understand about liking not working for Boss Meany, I honestly can't wait to get back to work...I graduated nursing school just under two years ago, and haven't been able to get licensed/a job since. I'm dying here, LOL. But there are good reasons for it - my father (who was my biggest fan and best supporter; we were very close, and I grieve constantly still) passed away 9 weeks after I graduated, and then, I started getting sick myself. Then had the surgery earlier this year, and probably will have to have another one soon.

So that's my excuse, but I soooooo want to get to work. I think part of my drive to get the gardens done (or at least, more done) is that I may be down for a few months after the next surgery, and I know that I will want to have a place to go sit and relax and recuperate...and not look at roses in pots and worry that I'm going to lose them because I didn't get them planted beforehand. If that makes sense.

So yes, I'm busting my franny to get this all done...but it's good, and it's satisfying, and I am content with the progress.

This weekend, though, will be a lot of hard work...I will get the tiller this weekend, and expect to be tilling my little heart out in the back yard. And I've gotten the pruner, and while I had planned on getting that started today, instead I put the Distant Drums and other things in. So I'll start that tomorrow.

I will say that I emailed my gardeners' company and asked them to make sure they send a large truck next week - I'll have a lot of branches and things ready to be hauled out of here by the next time they come...so that also adds some "pressure" to get things done.

But it's good...it's great to be out there sweating and using my body, and creating a pretty space, adorning my home with gorgeous flowers and wonderful spots for squirrels and hummingbirds...just creating my little piece of Heaven right here.

But man, I'm tired and sore. LOL. I may end up taking another perc. tonight. The good news is that I didn't even get a new scratch; and DD roses do indeed have some thorns. YAY for careful hand placement!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hello Herding,
Wow...it sounds as if you have been a whirlwind of gardening energy, and I'm sure you did a fine job of planting Distant Drums. I had been meaning to answer some of your planting questions from a day or so ago. I'm no expert, for sure, and we live in different climates, but I'll try to tell you how I plant a rose. Everyone has her/his favorite method, and as long as the rose thrives variation in method is fine with me. For bare roots and roses in pots a lot smaller than yours, I dig a hole at least 24-inches wide. This is the minimal size for me. I bury the bud union a little below grade to protect it during our cold weather. I have read that doing this also encourages the rose to grow its own roots and,ideally, go "own root". In your climate, you don't have to worry about severe weather, so it would make sense to plant the rose so the bud union is at the same position as it was in its pot, probably just above grade. Again, I have read that doing this may promote new basal shoots to form, which are new canes coming directly from the bud union. So, the depth you want to plant your roses is up to you. My soil is terrible, so after it's removed from the planting hole, I have to sift out rocks and other bad stuff and break up clods, which is hard and time consuming. I then mix in Miracle Grow Garden Soil (not potting soil) in about 50-50 proportions with the ground soil. I don't add any fertilizer to the hole. I position the rose at the depth I want, add about half the soil, water well, and add the other half, forming a shallow dish of soil around the rose. This helps hold the water when you are hand watering. Then I water again. Don't let the new planting dry out. Hand watering is good. But eventually, you will want your drip system hooked up to each new rose. I add some compost and manure around the new rose, too, but don't mound it up around the bud union. I fertilize with Plant Tone, manure, granular rose fertilizer, and toward the end of summer good old Miracle Grow, using a hose end sprayer. I don't fertilize as often as directed on the packaging--it's more hit or miss, but I usually start the season (end of February) with manure spread around each rose. Later some Plant Tone or granular fertilizer.
I think I'm done on this topic (and you probably are,too!). I meant to ask if Otto provided you with some planting instructions because they would be specific to your area. I'd follow them as much as possible.
Keep up the good work. I'm winding down now in the garden and doing nothing this week. Clean up will be starting when we get a hard freeze. Take care. Diane


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I am sooooo tired. I met with a exterior painting company, and hate the hard sell...just hate it. Still, it's a reasonable offer. I just don't have the money available at this time. Can't make money appear, you know? Sigh. I hate this not-working thing...

As for me, I'm tired. Diane, I think I did a close job as to what you describe, although I did put the bone meal and rose tone in the holes. I did do the dish thing, and it's a good trick to keep the water there while it soaks in. And I also wanted to say that when I repotted the Zeffy, she'd developed some nice, long, bright white roots...I was pleased to see that.

I have both drip irrigation as well as regular sprinklers. I think I'm going to keep the sprinklers, but just add a separate spigot with the drip line on it, so that I can deep water as well as sprinkler water during the super heat we get. I know I need to get the drip into the back, though, because there is no irrigation to some of the area, and yes, hand watering is tedious.

I will start the pruning tomorrow...I am tired and kind of cranky tonight - I am hurting a bit more than I had expected, but I'm sure I'll be fine in the next day or so. I need to get some dinner into me, and then head to bed for the night...I am tired! LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi Herding. Busy gal you've been. To some of your questions. Planting - do you have a snowballs chance of having gophers? IF you do, do yourself the biggest favor on earth, and line your holes with wire mesh to keep them out. 3/4" mesh or less is recommended, but I had a tough time working with the tighter mesh (and it's REALLY pricey), so I cheated and bought 3x150' 1', 20 gauge stucco mesh, cut in 6' lengths and doubled over (so 3'x3').

For planting soil - there are lots of old posts on soil contents in this forum. Start with a google search with "gardenweb rose planting soil. That will get you started. Find some combo you like that seems similar to your soil conditions.

For our climate, I leave the graft above ground - by about 1/2-1 1/2". When first planting, keeping soil mounded over the graft and around the lower canes will help keep them from drying out. Soil doesn't have to stay up there, but for the first month(s), it'll be helpful for their transition. Of course, I'm remembering that you aren't planting bareroots - you're planting solid 5 gals - so they might not care either way...

Then - mulch. Keep the mulch away from the canes, but about 2-3" over your soil. This is where the horse manure is fabulous. Or old leaves, or any throw awah greenery from other parts of your property.

Stay away from fertilizing new plants. Let them get settled in, and besides winter is coming - even if our winters are mild, they are still winters. I start fertilizing in March.

Plenty of water. Don't let them swim, but don't let them dry out. You will see mild drooping if they are thirsty - don't panic if they do, they'll recover quickly as soon as they get more water.

Unlikely you'll kill them. Roses are H A R D Y. You don't need to give yourself a heart attack worrying about all the minute details. Take a few deep breaths, and it's probably a case of "less is more" in almost all areas you are concerned about - except for water.

And have fun.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

News From My (Gonna Be) Garden...

YAY, the Distant Drums look really good this morning. They seem to have handled the planting all right, and are all standing up nicely and seem to be fine with the amount of water they had yesterday.

I went out with all the intention to get some work done - pruning, transplanting the seedlings, working on the placement of the roses, all the things that need to be done.

I came in shortly thereafter...seems I'm still quite tired from yesterday's exertions. LOL. So I just wandered around, watered the backyard roses really well, and clipped spent flowers.

Best news of the day, though, is that my wee small band of St. Cecilia, sitting in a pot in the general direction where she'll live once she's big enough, has a very wee, tiny, weentsy small bud on it. I know I need to pinch the buds off at this point, but I'm going to let it bloom just. this. once. and then pinch off all other buds I find. But my word, it's wee...very, very wee. Of course, so is the bush, which is about 6 inches tall. But it's apparently quite happy with life, or it wouldn't have given me the bud, right? So I'm terribly thrilled.

I will take a break on other things today...and once the electric tiller comes tomorrow, I'll get to work on getting things ready for the back yard bushes.

I do have a question about planting distances, though. Say I want to plant two David Austins to twine with each other, how far apart should I put them? They're the CP Margareta and Teasing Georgia together, or 2 Teasing Georgias and two CPMs together in a grouping. Haven't decided just yet. But I want a big mass of flowers in those spots, so how close would I plant them for that effect, and still be able to keep the roses happy and healthy?

Thanks so much...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Harmony, I forgot to add that yes, I've been reading tons of posts on soil, amendments, and potting v. ground planting...and all are wonderfully informative. I am, quite literally, devouring each page I click through when it's a topic like planting, transplanting, and soil.

It's a great resource indeed, this site. Thanks for reminding me to read, read, and read...and then stop worrying and get out and enjoy myself. I am enjoying myself, and that's a delight in my world right now.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I will admit that I have not read the whole thread, as I have to get outside and do some work in my jungle, but I will be back to catch up on your story later. I just wanted to comment that I was happy to see Sea Foam heading your list.

That was the first rose I grew. I didn't choose it, she was purchased by my dad from the hospital reduced rack at a big box and brought to me. Boy, how I loved that rose!! Watching her grow from a tiny thing into a beautiful, arching bush was wonderful, and boy, did she put on a show! The neighbors would catch me and say "Did you see your rose bush today? It's just beautiful!"

That said, I'd choose her again any day! She made me so happy. I wish I had room for her at this apartment, but just don't, sadly.

I hope she does as well for you as she did for me!!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

This winter, find some time to go into the Pasadena area to the Huntington and look at the Camellias. Having Camellias is like having roses for shade except no fragrance but they last a long time on the plant. There is a great variety of shapes to choose from. Save space for at least 2. They are much easier than azaleas in the ground. Mine are going when the roses have been cut back for the year so I have big lovely flowers while I wait for the first roses.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi, Merlcat!

The Sea Foam I have, in a 5 gal, promises to be exuberant and abundant...already there are arching canes, and loads of blooms...and I love the shape of the blooms themselves. It is a very nice rose! I'm not sure it's happy where it is, and where it is intended to go; but never mind. I will move it if need be...it's a great beginning, and I like it a lot already. Right now, Sea Foam is near with the Fairy roses, and makes a beautiful contrast to the little pink blooms on Fairy, but while Fairy seems to be handling the spot, I'm not too sure about Sea Foam. Again, I'll move her so she has a great happy home if need be...

Kitty, yes, camillias are very pretty. There is one at the back gate, which has lived there as long as I've been alive (close to 50 years), and seems to be quite content there. It's in complete shade - it's growing on the north side of the garage wall, by the gate, at the head of the path down the yard...never sees the sun whatsoever. Not a bit of watering, either...that whole strip (N. side of garage) only gets overspray from the lawn, but even that doesn't reach the camellia bush. It's thriving - already has a ton of buds on it; it's white and pink striped, but other than that I don't know what it is. Other than pretty!!

I am thinking of putting one in in the shade spot behind the garage - that's on the east side. That would be in the "secret" or "surprise" garden - that I'll put in gardenias (I found some on tree stock, so am hoping that will take away some of the issues I've had with gardenias on the ground), and where the bell fountain will go.

The "secret garden" is the area that...well, imagine this. A big triple slider from the den to the back patio. You can see a cement patio which steps down to a paver patio, total for those about 15 feet. Beyond that is the yard, green grass. To your left, Papa's garden exists; in the strip of land between the green grass and the fence, that will be filled with David Austins, blue berries, a Blood Moro Orange tree, and other smaller growing bushes.

At the back and to the far right corner, sits another patio, with sandstone pavers, and a double seater swing. Lining that patio, there are potted dahlias and lavender, and a baby Star Jasmine.

That is what you can see from the back slider door. But, if you step out, and walk down the 18" concrete pathway that runs along the south side of the double patios at the back door, you start at the camellia tree. But there is very little else, except a different tree, and a spigot, all the way down the garage wall.

As you walk down the garden path, you don't see much to your right except the sandstone pavers and swing...and then you reach the end of the garage. To your right, a whole garage wall is there...down to the property line (about 25 feet), and there is one tree.

That is the area I'm calling the "secret garden." It can't be seen from the house, or even from the edge of the house patio. But it's there...and if done right, it would be a wonderful surprise as you go to the back...because you don't even know it exists. That's the area I'm putting in the bell fountain, and whatever other plantings will take the heavy shade...all in an effort to create an outside space that is both a surprise and a secret.

But first, I have to put in what I've already got. LOL. To that end, this week I've put in the Distant Drums, built a low free floating brick wall (from left over/salvaged bricks on the property), took down/threw out tons of branches and firewood that I don't want, and put in some echinacea and rudbeckia, salvia, lavender, stock, and garden mums.

I wonder how the next week will go...as the electric tiller didn't get here yet, I couldn't start on the back yard. But that will come soon - this week, maybe tomorrow, and so I can start working that area.

I will say that since the delivery of the roses, I've not been without a dear sweet posy of David Austins in the house...right now, I've got 9 Teasing Georgias in a small bedside vase, and they are delightful indeed.

Delightful.

The terra forming proceeds apace, as they say...and I'm having a ball.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Oh ow.

The tiller came yesterday, and it's sitting in the living room, not yet put together. I went to the barn for a friend and her 4 kids, and gave them all pony rides on my big horse, after I rode him tired. LOL...yes, I totally overdid it, but it was utterly wonderful to be up at the barn, and riding, and hanging with kids and friends. But I am indeed paying for it this morning in some big aches and muscle soreness. LOLing at me...

Still, I'll put the tiller together today, and see how well it works. I am hoping it's as advertised...that it indeed can go through packed, sterile soil, and turn it over. I figure I'll be shoveling out the turned dirt, and making a second (or even third) pass, so this will be a several day event. After I get the dirt loose, I'll be adding compost and topsoil, and blending it together, and then adding it back into the holes. If the tiller does what it's supposed to (and as it's been reviewed to do), then I will be ready to plant all the roses in the back by the weekend.

And I got my replacement rose from Jackson and Perkins yesterday; this one, at least, seems to be in decent shape, and should withstand the transplant. My Midas Touch has gone completely yellow, so I think it's on it's way out; it's root system was not at all developed when I transplanted it, and I didn't think it would survive, and I wasn't too fond of it anyway, so I'm not upset...but still. It's sad. LOL.

And, I have two buds on my new Peace rose...as well as a wee small bud on the Fragrant Plum.

It's nice to see new growth and buds; means to me that I'm doing all right, and that what I've done so far seems to be working decently. Which is both reassuring and confirming that I may not kill all the new gorgeous roses that came a week ago.

Anyway, just thought I'd update the thread. I'll work as long as I can today...hopefully it will be a decent amount, but who knows. But at least I've got the tools now, and it's just a matter of getting going and getting 'er done, you know?

I hope everyone has a great Tuesday...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

  • Posted by minflick 9b/7, Boulder Creek, (My Page) on
    Tue, Oct 23, 12 at 17:37

Have you ever run a tiller before? I ask because I seem to remember you being in less that stellar physical condition. Feel free to ignore me if I'm remembering wrongly!! However, tillers are brutal on the body. I would recommend you hire in some physical labor for this aspect of the garden. Stand there and supervise, but let THEM do the work. My FIL got a big old honking Sears tiller that he hardly ever used because it was harder work then he had the body for anymore, and it gave him pain in his hands (neuropathy post chemo). I bought a little dink Mantis tiller (that doesn't sound like it would have been up for your spot there) and it made me ache all over when I had to use it for a few hours.

Seriously - if you aren't in tip top body condition, hire a body to help you with this thing.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Minflick, no, I'm not in stellar shape. This is the Earthwise tiller, and it's supposed to be lighter than the Mantis, but has enough power to get the job done. I doubt I'll run it long, and it's definitely far more manageable than a gas tiller and from what I read a Mantis tiller, too. It's only about 30 pounds, but still, when it jumps, it could be an issue...I'll give it a try, but if I can't hack it, I have someone I can hire, or I can make my gardeners company send me some folks over (as payback for the Eden fiasco).

But truth to tell, I was too sore from riding and then walking an hour in sand (the arena is sand) leading my horse around to actually do much of anything today.

Tomorrow, I'll put it together, and I'll see if I can handle it. If not...I'll get someone in. I promise. But I want to give it a shot first.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats, you can always have some one bring in a gas tiller and do a once thru (like your garden company)and then use the electric tiller to break it up even smoother.

But rest up, SoCal is just getting to the good gardening time of the year.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

  • Posted by minflick 9b/7, Boulder Creek, (My Page) on
    Tue, Oct 23, 12 at 22:11

Cats - good! I can't remember anything I've done that made my hands and arms ache the way running a tiller did. I'm glad you have help waiting in the wings if you need them!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Kippy, you're right...tis the season to start gardening! LOL, my tomato plants are still fruiting. And so is the odd strawberry or three. It's so funny...we shut down in the heat, but as soon as decent weather comes back, everything is up and running...

Min, thanks...I'll tell you what hurts more in the arms and hands department than anything else I've EVER done, and that's a big horse. LOL. Talk about a fight...there is nothing like trying to ride, control, and handle a horse who is scared (or simply mean) and trying it's best to do anything but what you ask...everything from neck down is used...and it all hurts at the end of it. LOL, horses are very strong beasties.

But I will take it gently and easy...I'll see how it goes, and stop when/if I need it. I love, love, love doing it myself, but sometimes, it's a better idea to bring someone in.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

  • Posted by minflick 9b/7, Boulder Creek, (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 24, 12 at 15:50

Cats, I haven't ridden horses since my early 20's, darn it all. A lot of my riding experience was cross country up in the Sierras, and some of the darlin's were not wanting to do that... We had several interesting rides through deep bog meadows, seeing coyotes and wild ducks and one of them VERY nearly cost me my right knee, TYVM. I was so much more fit in those days, aside from the knee injury which took months to heal, I was never more than moderately 'tired' at the end of a long day. Most fun riding I ever had, anywhere! Now that I'm not-so-young, a tiller is not a fun thing for me to contemplate. Luckily, my dirt here is SO bad I'm doing lasagna gardening on top of the clay and rock, rather than digging very much. It's still hard work, but nothing like DIGGING in balky ground!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

The old camellia probably has roots way out where it can get water. These plants love a good drink just like roses. Don't make the mistake of feeding a hot fertilizer and ruining your plant. Less is more. I feed a very slow release food in the form of cottonseed meal. Don't get any horse manure near the camellia. Camellia roots are very sensitive and near the soil surface. They don't want a thick mulch like roses do. I give mine a slow deep soak every week in summer and a light surface watering during winter when they go dormant. I love the way they make the flowers when they sleep. When they are ready to eat you will see the ends of the branches make a tender green growth around March for Japonicas. That's when you want to water well and feed them. Right now you should see them plumping up buds for the winter bloom.

So excited for you about the roses. I am back to my old habits and thinking some big DA roses would be better in a new spot and it's going to be a fight to get them moved. I'm thinking late November will be the time. Of course they always come apart in sections and so I end up having to pot up the sections. I can never seem to toss a rooted piece of rose no matter how small. The little rootlings grow into fine plants and the big section that I moved takes a while to get going. I always think- Why didn't I plant the little guys instead?! They look so wonderful in the pots with the first flowers. Eventually the big sections get going and throwing out big new canes and I feel I made the right choice. It sure is fun watching the little roses grow.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Oh, Min, I know *all* about horse injuries...the worst I've had (and it was bad) was when my own mighty steed spooked in a trailer; he knocked me under his feet and trampled me pretty thoroughly. I had a cracked skull, three broken bones in my feet, and was kicked out of the trailer with him jumping backwards over me. I had more bruises than I could count, and had bad headaches for a long time. But I still love him, and ride him, and he did his best to not hurt me (according to the witness), and he's had some issues with trailering (two trailer accidents), so that's just the way it is...I was in the wrong spot for a spook.

Kitty, YES it's so fun to watch things grow. I have a 1/2 flat of seedlings that I'm getting into the ground soon, as well as all the roses. I found an old stump of a rose root, with one wee stem above the bud union, so I stuck it into a pot. It's given me a bit of new growth, so I'm wondering which rose it is. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

We have Santa Ana winds over the next few days, so I'm just going to make sure that they're watered well; I'll prepare the ground, but I won't put them in - too much trauma at once, I think. So they'll stay in pots a few more days.

As for the camellias, thanks for explaining about their root system. This one is seriously old, and has to have it's own source of water as there is nothing I can see giving it any. But I will soak out the spot over the next day or so; and yes, it's got a lot of buds on it.

I've never even thought about fertilizing it...and I was planning on using the manure for the roses and companion plants, and not the camellia. But she's going to be happy with extra water, I think...

I am looking at rebuilding the gate in the next few months. The gate we have is almost as old as I am, and is pretty well shot. I'm going to lower it (it's 6.5 foot tall) to about 4 foot, and change the color - it's brown, so I'm making it white - and maybe build an arbor over it. It will be fun to do that...and create a neat entrance to the backyard garden.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Kitty, do you have any experience with moving a very old camillia? I have one in a spot that is right in the way of where I want to put in a new door and porch. (there is a very old, broken pane, painted shut antique window-I want to put in a new door that opens out to the yard and lets fresh air in)

This one is well over 50 yeas old, might be closer to 100 but has dealt with roots being messed and loved a heavy pruning a few years back to paint.

Cats, can I say OUCH!! Having had a mad mare use my chest to push off of after she threw me, horses are heavy!

I stopped at the local public rose garden today, the Distant Drums where looking pretty and green, but a good 4+ feet tall.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

  • Posted by minflick 9b/7, Boulder Creek, (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 25, 12 at 17:44

Cats - OUCH.... Just, ouch! That sounds awful... Glad he wasn't TRYING to hurt you!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Yes, Kippy, horses are heavy. My mighty steed stands 16.3hh, and weighs in at about 1350...he's a big boy. LOL.

My Distant Drums are just gorgeous...new buds, lots of blooms, and I couldn't be more pleased with their unusual color combo. They are definitely a conversation piece indeed...

Min, yes, OUCH. No, he wasn't trying to hurt me...according to my trainer (who was witness), she said he was doing his best to "tip toe" and even took a whack to his own head, opening up a serious flap between his ears. No, he wasn't trying to hurt me; he tried to avoid me, but I was under his feet, and that was just the way it was. We were trailering to a show, and needless to say I didn't ride at the show, but he did show, under our trainer, and won several classes he was in. I cheered from the sidelines, with gorgeously flamboyant bruises and stoned outta my gourd on morphine. LOL.

Hey, guys? The strangest thing has happened. My Double Delight, an old rose, has NOT been doing well at all. Great place, prime real estate, but nothing. Nada. Maybe one bloom in spring, but it was deformed, and nothing else, despite feeding and watering and all that jazz.

So, I SP'd it, but didn't put it in the trash. I put it into a tub of water, thinking well, maybe I'll have a place in the back. Got going on other things, never changed the water, didn't think about it...

Fast forward to today, about 8 days after putting it into water.

It has not only got new growth on it, but...it has a BUD! Seriously. I mean, what the heck is that? Roses grow hydroponically? Considering it's will to live, I potted it up and put it into my "transitional housing" area. It will have it's own drip waterer, and has a good, protected spot for it. I will probably relocate it into the back yard, but for now, it's in a little cove that gets great sunlight. I am going to see what happens with this bud...

What a surprise! I don't believe it; I looked at, and felt, the bud, thinking it was just some leaves clumped together or something, but no, it's a real bud.

HUH. I don't know what to think at all.

And these winds are sooooo hard on the David Austins...I've watered them, and they've "bounced back", but they were drooping and looking very thirsty. And they're in a relatively protected spot (in the shadow of the north property wall, which blocks the majority of the north wind, Santa Ana) and getting great sun. But they perked up with a long drink...

I'll be putting in drip irrigation tomorrow along that strip of land. It needs to be done, and the glory of drip irrigation is it's easy (*and cheap) to move/extend/relocate when and if the need arises after I've gotten the roses planted.

But what's with that bud on the Double Delight? Seriously...has me scratching my head.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I did it, I went to Otto's today.

And yes I bought trees, two of them even and the Munstead Wood for my son and his fiances wedding colors.

(two more roses hopped in the car since there was space-good thing I told mom to stay home...lol)


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Whoooo hooo! Kippy got her fruit trees, and the Munstead Wood...and of course two roses came home. Glad Mom stayed at the house so there was room.

Which rose did you decide on?

I will be getting back to gardening tomorrow...the back needs some serious attention. I had to take two days off because I suddenly have a purebred Saint Bernard who is all of 8 weeks old (had been abandoned with the papers at my horse trainer's vet...). So I have a registerable Saint Bernard male, who is utterly, totally, completely adorable, to go along with the 10 cats, the Newfoundland, and the Beagle.

LOL. Rescuing has it's drawbacks. I will not have room on my bed at all for me...LOL. But he's totally adorable, and it looks like he was the "runt" (which is likely why he was abandoned). He's all about the snuggles and food right now...it's too cute.

So tomorrow, I'll be back in the garden...It needs some attention, too. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Oh wow a new puppy!! how fun! Lots of extra garden help.

I had told mom that she was welcome to join me, but I had no idea how long I would be in the Ventura area, if I hit a Friday Rush hour traffic I planned on sitting at the beach and watching the sunset rather than be stuck on the highway. And if there trees were tall, I would have to put the front seat down for extra tree space so she would have to ride in the back seat. But she was busy making beans at home and was happy to stay.

I got a Santa Barbara peach, it was a nice shape for the area I want it, but the second peach (Red Baron) I did not like the shape. But the lady at the counter (I am horrible with names-super nice lady too) called to the fields and they brought me up a "high head" tree and it is perfect! And a good thing I could put the seat down, because it barely fit. I took the SUV cause of the heat and lack of A/C in the truck. Good thing because the truck has a shell on it and no way could I have brought that tree home!

Munstead is on the smaller side...for now. But will have a prime spot so guessing that next spring it will be perfect.

I had to get a Gruss an Aachen, I got a lesson in how to correctly pronounce that name in good German!

After putting those two roses and two trees in the car, I realized could fit one more if I changed the back seat to fit a taller rose. So Belinda's Dream found a ride back to Santa Barbara too.

And I managed to miss the traffic until I was back in Santa Barbara.

Tomorrow, I will use the hose to start some holes. I dig a bit, put a few gallons of water in the hole and move on to the next hole. Next day, same thing, more water and in a few days I have some real nice holes that were pretty easy to dig.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi Herding,
The last we heard you had acquired a new puppy, but no news from you about your roses lately. Did you get them planted? Anymore gardening plans? Maybe the new doggie is temporarily displacing gardening--there are only so many hours in the day. I do hope you are feeling well and let us know what's happening in your garden. Diane


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I'm sorry, Nanadoll, for not updating! Yes, Fintan is keeping me super busy...and I've had a headcold. Between the two, there's only been maintenance gardening done, nothing more. And I do need to have one more surgery, but that won't be until after the holidays.

And we've had some strange weather lately - close to 100* again, but later this week, there will be a high of 62*...and lows into the low 40s.

Before I finish up the rose planting in the front garden bed, I need to move the Queen Lizzy. The weather has been so weird lately that I've been hesitant to move her (in the 100* days...) but I'm hoping to move her tomorrow, in time for cooler weather and less stress.

Once she's been moved, I will be able to get the Gruss in the ground, as well as companion plants in there. Then all that's left is for things to fill out. St. Cecilia (a band) is doing really, really well, as is the Fragrant Plum; both of those will go into the front bed, but probably not for a few monts yet (although I may do it sooner...they're growing super well).

And my climbers - CPM, Shropshire, Portlandia, and Zeffy, are all doing really well in their pots. I still am concerned about Ginger Syllabub, but she's starting to show some new growth, so...we'll see.

And, the walkway is almost complete. The Midas Touch, which I moved from the front bed, did nothing in the 4 weeks it was there...and dropped a ton of leaves. So, I moved that into a 5 gallon bucket with water and B1, like I did with the Double Delight, and will see how that goes. Maybe, like with the Double Delight, it will regain it's footing...

In it's place, I've put a second Soft Whisper, which looks really healthy. I'm beginning to think that the area (this was the Double Delight's former spot, as well as the transplanted Midas Touch) is not getting enough water for some reason, so I am planning a switch from overhead autowaterer to a drip line. That might make the difference...we'll see.

And, again, my PJPII is in bud. It has, again, a tremendous amount of buds on it; it's soooooo very happy in it's tub and spot...just throwing it's buds out there. And the blooms are delicious, as always.

Other than that, I've cleared one area of hedges, and set out some hydrangeas in pots to see if they enjoy that spot. If they do well, I'll plant them in...and let them fill that area under the window with some color. That's also where the plumbago will go, and is where the magenta bougainvilla has established itself very well. I'm considering some rhododendrons there, as well...but am not sure if that's the right spot.

I think I am going to have to build some planters for the backyard roses...between the tree roots and the dead soils, I've been having a difficult time digging out a large enough area for the roses. So, I'll probably build a few elevated planters and let the roses live there. It will look quite nice, if I can do what my imagination says can be done...so that's all right. :)

In other words, while the body has been elsewhere, the mind still remains in the garden. And, as it cools off, I will finish up planting and getting things into the ground.

All in all, things are moving along...a tad slower, with the unexpected addition (and he is a cutie for sure and certain...10 weeks tomorrow!) and the weather being bizarre (even for us), but it looks like I'll be back in the garden in full force and effect again shortly.

YAY!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Sorry about needing the more surgery Cats. That has to be NO fun to deal with! Puppies are fun, even if they do keep you on your toes.

The heat this week has been horrible! So many things for me to finish up this week and NO desire to work in just under 100 degree temps.

Take care of your self! If nothing else hire a good gardener and supervise!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I have to go get some labs done tomorrow, and that will tell me a whole lot more about the timing of the surgery...we're hoping it can wait until January, and then I'd be able to have the holidays out of state with my family...I don't want to travel too soon after surgery, you know?

So the labs tomorrow will let me know what kind of time I've got before heading off to the OR. Sigh.

BUT! Finn is the dearest little puppy - he won't be little for long, but while he is, I'm holding him as much as I can. LOL. Such comfort in a cuddly puppy...and I've got the other dogs to love on, too. So I'm good.

As for the garden, I'm hoping that the cool-down which is predicted to start tomorrow actually will...there's a small chance of rain, too, on Thursday, which would be great to transplant in, you know?

So there will be some work done this week - I'm a tad behind...but that's all right. It'll work out.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

crossing my fingers for you on the labs!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I am in a dither.

I can't decide where to transplant the Queen Elizabeth! I had originally planned on moving her to the backyard. Then, I figured I'd keep her as a back of the garden rose in the pink rose garden in front of the house.

Then, I thought about it, and her pink here, in my climate, is almost neon...very very bright. So it wouldn't quite fit in the bed colorwise...I've got Gruss, Betty White, St. Cecilia, Distant Drums, Zepherine Druhin, and maybe Fragrant Plum in that bed, all muted pinks/creams or mauves. So in my head, Queen Liz would be too sharp a contrast.

I don't know...I just don't know.

I also have to find homes for the Double Delight (which budded in a 5 gallon bucket of water; has been potted up and is doing really, really well...), A Shropshire Lad, Portlandia CL, and Ginger Syllabub.

I have a CPMargarita which has decided it wants to live, so the back fence will have a grouping of three CPMs, and both Teasing Georgias...CPM/TG/CPM/TG/CPM. Farther off from that grouping, I'll have an unnamed yellow, and, if the Midas Touch survives, I'll put him there too. And along the brick border which outlines the grass, I'll put the two Wildeves, a Blue Girl, and another unnamed rose.

I also have coming from Palatine two Lions Fairy Tale, and two "mini" Verandas (the yellow centered ones). So the brick line will look like: Lions/Wildeve/potted Veranda, and then potted Veranda/Wildeve/Lions. There is a break in the bricks (they fell over, and I never put them back up...and think I'll leave it now...it's a natural entrance to that area; I may add a mini gate, just because...), so the break will be flanked with the Verandas in pots.

I also have some blue berries back there, and a Moro Blood Orange Tree (dwarf).

So, I'm thinking that bright pink (Queen Liz) won't go back there, either.

Sigh.

The only place left would be at the chimney, but I was going to put one or two of the climbers (probably Portlandia, and Shropshire), as that's near the front rose garden.

Actually, there is one other place - by the kitchen door. But I am not sure I want her there, either.

Augh. See? I'm dithering.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi Herding,
I'm so glad we heard from you, and I hope those lab tests have the right results so you can spend the holidays with your family and have some quality time with them before embarking on the next health hurdle.
Don't worry about dithering. Dithering is so normal among roseaholics. I may dither about buying a rose from a few months to a few years. Then the dithering begins about where to plant it in my small garden. And what would I do during the winter if I couldn't dither and be indecisive, going back and forth about the purchase of a single rose.
Anyway, I like what you have decided to do in front of the brick wall, with a mirror image of roses on either side of the opening. QE is more problematic. Could you group her in the back of the pink bed with two of the darkest of the other pink roses? Then have the lighter, most muted roses in front of the QE group? I need to look at your selections on HMF to refresh my memory about some of the colors. Sooo, I'll be back after that.
Diane


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

My QE is pretty poor, or I would offer you a second so you can have two of them. I will dig mine out one of these days too, but for now she can sit in her spot.

Hope you got some rain today, we got some mist this morning and lot of cold wind.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Nanadoll, I'm thinking that I might put Queen Liz at the corner of the window and the chimney, which is sort of "behind" the Zepherine. The problem is, that I wanted that spot for fragrance - it's a window that I keep open most all summer - unless it's too hot, of course - and wanted the fragrance to come in. I had thought about putting the Zeffy there in that spot, and putting the Queen Liz in the corner of the house (that area is like a backwards Z...there's a protrusion which has the windowseat that ends in a corner, then a space of wall/window to the chimney, then the chimney protrudes). So in the corner, I could put Zeffy, and the at the front corner (at the back edge of the pink garden) I coujld put Liz...but I wanted a climber there to climb up and over the windowseat roof, and provide a visual "height" or lift right there.

It might look nice to have the Fragrant Plum (which is a very dominant pink/magenta), then the Queen Liz, then the Zeffy...all in a line stretching backwards down the driveway from the corner to the chimney...that might work. They're all pretty bright, loud colors, and all in the hot pinks/fuschia/magenta range, so it might do well there. And that way, I'd get some fragrance...

I just don't know. There is one other spot...it gets decent sun, and it's along the driveway...and then there is a spot at the kitchen door (that area has a sort of triangle dirt area) between the kitchen door and the back gate. That's really the only other spot, unless I put her in the back yard.

But I want the back yard to be the way I've laid it out...I think it would look really neat with the DA's along the fence, and then the mirror image of the other three along the brick line...and if I add a small gate, it would be so cute and cottage-y. BTW, the bricks are lined with agapanthas, so there is contrasting blue during the summer, too. (I have to thin them out, though...they're quite overgrown and crowded). Add to the brick line some dahlias and ranunculus and lavender and sweet peas and sweet alyssum and periwinkle and maybe some hollyhocks in the back...that would be sooooo super sweet. Lay some pea gravel down for a walkway, or put down some pavers or something, and then it's like a little rose lined pathway.

I have a huge blank spot at the back of the property - poor sun for roses, I think, so I'm going to put in some other things...not sure what, just yet, but something else.

So there really isn't a place for the Queen Liz, so I may just put her in the kitchen garden. I was hoping to put some veggies in there (some raised beds...lettuce and spinach, and maybe some green onions), so she'd be accompanied with that sort of thing.

I've got to figure it out, though, because I'm waiting on planting everything until I know where she goes...it is holding me back...you know what I mean? LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Kippy, don't ask me why the Queen Liz has done as superbly as she has...I have no idea. LOL. Sorry to hear yours isn't quite as big as mine...it really is a nice rose. I cut 6 of them for a small bouquet today, and it's a sweet, bubblegum pink splash on my cream colored wall.

As for rain, yes, we've gotten some...and expect some more tonight, maybe tomorrow, and possibly on Saturday. I LOVE the rain - lit my first fire of the season, and had a hot chocolate (spiked with some hazelnut Kahlua, thankyouverymuch), and am enoying the coolness.

It's also a perfect time to transplant...sigh.

As for me, I postponed my labs to coincide with the ultra sound scheduled for tomorrow. So I'll spend the morning at the hospital getting poked and photographed, and then come home and play in the dirt (if I'm up to it)...and play with my dogs, who are all loving being inside with me (because of the rain).

I hope you get some rain too, Kippy...it's nice.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi Herding,
Your evening sounded so cozy, and I'm hoping the tests went well.
We went from spring weather to snow in 24 hours. Of course snow for us (and rain) is measured in the hundredths of an inch with rare exceptions. If we ever get as much as half an inch of rain, it's like the floodgates have opened, and we don't know what to do--ha.
I definitely think you should have a good smeller outside the window you keep open. Which rose have you decided on for that spot? I also love the idea of the climber up and over the windowseat roof. That sounds so cottagey, too.
Maybe the QE should have a temporary home in the veggie garden, and when things start to gel next year, you may have a better idea of where her permanent home should be. Things are not written in stone, and gardeners are constantly moving things around--it's in our blood, sort of like dithering as a winter hobby. I plan to do a whole lot of moving around (of roses) this spring myself. If you just go ahead and plant QE, it will free up your thoughts to move on to the next planting ideas. Once things get rolling, you will be surprised how everything falls into to place, and locations you thought might not be the right one for a rose turn out to be just fine--a nice surprise.
Have another cozy evening. Diane


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Everything seems to be going well for you so I hope that your health will follow right along and everything will be fine.

To answer the moving the old camellia question there are two possibilities

One is that the camellia was container planted and has no tap root. Then you should be able to prune back the foliage and dig up a big rootball when the plant is dormant and move it. I have heard of people pruning back, cutting the roots at the drip line and a month later, cutting the roots at the bottom after the cuts have healed from the first pruning of the roots. The whole root ball is wrapped up while the plant is laid over. I did this with a big DA rose once and it took all day.

The second possibility is that the camellia has its tap root intact. These camellias usually don't survive the moving process. The nursery usually pinches off the tap root so the plants can be container grown. A tap root is a good thing for a camellia to have because it allows it to go deep into the soil to search for water. Most plants are grafted today onto seedlings that had their tap roots pinched off. If you want to be sure, you can try grafting a piece of your camellia onto one you bought at the store just to keep a copy of yours alive while you try moving it. I have four seedlings that have the tap roots intact. The camellia nursery advised me to let it grow and if I don't like the flowers I get, to graft on and I will have all the advantages of a tap rooted plant. If you think rose bands grow slowly, try a camellia seedling....3 years later and no flowers yet!


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi, Nanadoll.

No, the tests weren't good. Sigh. But I did have a second cozy evening, and am planning on a very nice, snuggly evening with my critters, a fire, and The Walking Dead television show. :)

I think you're right...since Queen Liz is what has me stalled, I'll find a temporary home (and yes, the kitchen garden will be that home), and then, once I've gotten everything else sorted out, I'll know where she goes.

I am thinking that I''ll put her into a big, big planter instead of the ground, so that the trauma of digging her up will be lessened...come a permanent home, I'll just tip her into it, without having to disturb the roots again. It will hopefully drop the transplant shock risks down...I think.

As for transplant shock, my Distant Drums, while putting out new growth and still blooming, have yellowing leaves (a lot of them) on their stems. I'm not sure why...I'm wondering if maybe there is too much water there, so I plan on adding a drip line water system, and improving the drainage a bit. But it also may just be transplant shock, too. I can't really tell.

Well, today is a big day at my house...I'm starting to get ready for the holidays, and since I'm expecting to need surgery again in the next two months, I'm going to start prepping for that - lots of cooking and then freezing, so there will be good, healthy meals waiting for me. And I'm behind in my Fall cleaning/winterizing my house (I know, we don't really have "winter" here...LOL), but things need to get done so that the three days of cold weather we do get, life will be good. LOLOL.

My puppy is continuing to bring tons of laughter and giggles in his 10 week old exploits...and he loves to cuddle. Along with my other critters, my life is blessed many millions of times, as I am constantly receiving love from them.

Would anyone like to see pix of my dogs? I have some, but didn't want to just post them here (it's a rose thread, after all...). And, hopefully in the next week or so, I will have photos of the house and gardens (incomplete), so that you all can give me a hand. No promises, though...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I would love to see pictures of your puppies!

Sorry the test results were not better.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Yes, Kippy, me too. I had a mass on my thyroid which was 1.3cm in February. Due to other concerns (diagnosed with vulvar cancer April 20, surgeries 5/11 and 5/18), it was put on the back burner. It has, unfortunately, grown and now measures 2.5cm. Bloodwork shows a lot of things out of balance because of the thyroid instigating lots of hormonal things...and now I'm severely anemic. The Dr. wants labs done again on Tuesday, and possibly a transfusion to come on Thursday (it's fairly alarming when you bleed it's orangish red, not blood red. Sigh...but it does explain the exhaustion, lightheadedness/greying out, and the jitters, so it does.). Unfortunately, this means surgery. My hope and prayer at this point is that I can do it after Christmas, as I'm going to see my brother and family in another state. I'm hoping the surgeon agrees...

BUT! I did spend a decent amount of time in the garden today, and have decided to pot up the Queen Liz...in a very large tub. It will be temporary, but it will allow me to get the balance of the front bed handled, and then I can dither about where Lizzy will go without it being pressure. YAY. Tomorrow, that's the plan...

I'll be back in a moment or two with some photos of my canine family...and I think I've got one of my mighty steed, too. Let me poke around...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

[IMG]http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn275/Nonime_photo/november012012870.jpg[/IMG]

This is my Newfoundland dog Grace, or, as she is AKC registered, Chaotic Grace. She is 135ish pounds, and is just shy of her 2nd birthday. her head measures 27.5 inches around, and her "depth of chest" measures more than 22 inches (which means she's more than 42 inches around at her deepest part of her chest). She stands 27 inches at the shoulder, and is more than 4 feet long from her muzzle to the base of her tail (her tail is 1.5-2 foot long itself). She has webbed feet as do all Newfoundlands, and loves to swim. She is a big, big girl indeed.

She has started pulling a wagon, and will soon graduate to a dog sulky...and take me for rides.

She is as sweet, gentle, and snuggly as she looks.

[IMG]http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn275/Nonime_photo/november012012813.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn275/Nonime_photo/november012012833.jpg[/IMG]
This is Romeo and he is 7 years old. He is a rescue, and has been "out" for just under 1 year. I say "out" because he was used as a medical experimental lab subject for 6 years, and was rescued by a non-profit beagle rescue group.

He has had a very hard life, but is a very happy, loving dog. He still has issues with open spaces, but loves to go on walks as long as he is with me or one specific friend. He will go on car rides, and has recently been spotted galavanting around at the dog park (instead of hiding beneath my feet). For what he's been through, he's pretty healthy; he does have some issues, but none prevent me from lovin' on him, and he will come over and ask for scritches and snuggles all the time. He has even gone up on the legs of relative strangers for ear touches. He is coming along. Some of his favorite things to do are chew sticks (as in the first photo), and taunt the world from under Grace (as in the second photo). He is a huge blessing to me, and is just as soulful and sweet as they come.

[IMG]http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn275/Nonime_photo/november012012893.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn275/Nonime_photo/november012012947.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn275/Nonime_photo/november012012973.jpg[/IMG]

And the latest is my "little" Fintan Ruadh. He is 10 weeks old, a tri-color Saint Bernard, and he believes he's landed in Disneyland. He can snuggle with me, cuddle with Romeo, and then wrestle Grace. He was the runt of the litter (there were 11 pups in that litter...wowza), and is learning how to chew kibble, loves bones, has learned sit and lay down, and will do pretty much anything I ask as long as he understands it. He is learning what a leash is, and how to walk on one; it's a bit confusing, but he seems to be coming along with it. He sleeps in a kennel next to my bed, with Gracie laying guard at the door...she adores that little one...is, in fact, besotted with him (as you can see by the photo where he's laying on top of her).

Currently, he stands just under 14 inches tall at the shoulder, weighs in at 23 pounds (and is underweight), and is a bundle of curiosity, joy, and energy. He is going to be a big, big boy; his sire was 185ish, and his dam was 160ish, so he'll probably get to be about 175 or so. He will learn to swim, and to pull a cart, and to use his nose to "find" things...hopefully, he will become a volunteer SAR dog. If not, he will absolutely be a therapy dog (as Grace will be, once she graduates), and go on visits to schools, hospitals, and nursing homes.

If I've done this right, you will see my dogs' photos...and if I've done it wrong, I'll try again tomorrow.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Grace
This is my Newfoundland dog Grace, or, as she is AKC registered, Chaotic Grace. She is 135ish pounds, and is just shy of her 2nd birthday. her head measures 27.5 inches around, and her "depth of chest" measures more than 22 inches (which means she's more than 42 inches around at her deepest part of her chest). She stands 27 inches at the shoulder, and is more than 4 feet long from her muzzle to the base of her tail (her tail is 1.5-2 foot long itself). She has webbed feet as do all Newfoundlands, and loves to swim. She is a big, big girl indeed.

She has started pulling a wagon, and will soon graduate to a dog sulky...and take me for rides.

She is as sweet, gentle, and snuggly as she looks.

Romeo
Romi and Grace
This is Romeo and he is 7 years old. He is a rescue, and has been "out" for just under 1 year. I say "out" because he was used as a medical experimental lab subject for 6 years, and was rescued by a non-profit beagle rescue group.

He has had a very hard life, but is a very happy, loving dog. He still has issues with open spaces, but loves to go on walks as long as he is with me or one specific friend. He will go on car rides, and has recently been spotted galavanting around at the dog park (instead of hiding beneath my feet). For what he's been through, he's pretty healthy; he does have some issues, but none prevent me from lovin' on him, and he will come over and ask for scritches and snuggles all the time. He has even gone up on the legs of relative strangers for ear touches. He is coming along. Some of his favorite things to do are chew sticks (as in the first photo), and taunt the world from under Grace (as in the second photo). He is a huge blessing to me, and is just as soulful and sweet as they come.

Fintan Ruadh 9 weeks
Finn and Grace
Finn and Grace
And the latest is my "little" Fintan Ruadh. He is 10 weeks old, a tri-color Saint Bernard, and he believes he's landed in Disneyland. He can snuggle with me, cuddle with Romeo, and then wrestle Grace. He was the runt of the litter (there were 11 pups in that litter...wowza), and is learning how to chew kibble, loves bones, has learned sit and lay down, and will do pretty much anything I ask as long as he understands it. He is learning what a leash is, and how to walk on one; it's a bit confusing, but he seems to be coming along with it. He sleeps in a kennel next to my bed, with Gracie laying guard at the door...she adores that little one...is, in fact, besotted with him (as you can see by the photo where he's laying on top of her).

Currently, he stands just under 14 inches tall at the shoulder, weighs in at 23 pounds (and is underweight), and is a bundle of curiosity, joy, and energy. He is going to be a big, big boy; his sire was 185ish, and his dam was 160ish, so he'll probably get to be about 175 or so. He will learn to swim, and to pull a cart, and to use his nose to "find" things...hopefully, he will become a volunteer SAR dog. If not, he will absolutely be a therapy dog (as Grace will be, once she graduates), and go on visits to schools, hospitals, and nursing homes.

I hope this works...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi Herding,
Your dog kids are adorable--love that tongue on Grace, and Fintan is just so cute. Love the pic of Romeo and Grace. It's good he has a big sis to protect him. They will help get you through all the health issues, I know. It would be cool if Grace could grip a shovel (sorry). Just think of all the holes she could help you with. By the way, where are the cats you herd? Being a cat person, I'm interested in them, too.
Given your anemia and thyroid problems, I can understand if progress on planting slows. Wish I could be there to dig a few holes, or at least email a virtual casserole. Still, it will be good for you to get outside and forge ahead as much as possible. Being in the garden is the best therapy for my soul, and I always feel better with a dose of fresh air.
If you ever have a little (actually a little more than a little) extra space for a rose that smells heavenly, think about getting Frederic Mistral. It would be a great rose for under an open window. Its blooms are beautiful and they last a long time in a vase. I love them scenting my bedroom. Yum.
Take care, and all my wishes for a better round of tests the next time (and a great Thanksgiving with family).
Diane


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I love your babies!

Grace looks so gentle with the puppy too and wonderful you could save Romeo.

Thyroid issues sure can tire a person out and yours sounds like it is working hard to do just that. Hope they get it right for you.

And where are the herds of cats?


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I just managed to get the card reader to work, and I will get crackin' on the herd of cats. I told you there was 10, didn't I? LOL, all rescues, all from the streets.

Yes, Diane, they have been a wonderful source of love and comfort, and I rely on them for that. The dogs and the cats.

And yes, Kippy, the thyroid does tire me right out. Or makes me dizzy and "fluttery". I'll be speaking with the surgeons and Drs. sometime this week; I think the plan is a thyroidectomy, but I'm not sure. I'll know soon enough.

In the meantime, I get out to the garden as much as I can, and there is a sale at the garden store tomorrow, so I'll go get more pavers, mulch and compost...if you look at the photo of Romi and Grace together, you will see a corner of the backyard, before I did anything to it except clear some branches. You can see what I've been calling the "Dead Zone", just behind the bricks and the agapantha.

I'll post more "before" photos, so you all can see the terraforming I'm doing.

Diane, Grace, Romi, and now Fintan are helping me garden, even though they don't use shovels. They are, you see, digging. LOL. If only I could get them to dig in the right places, all my troubles will be solved. ;)

G'night, all...

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Nanadoll, I think F. Mistral is on the "gotta get" list. How I missed it when looking for pinks, romanticas and hts, I'll never know. It actually would go very well in the pink garden...and, as it would be near the front windows (which are open a lot during the summer) the scent would come in nicely.

Thanks. I think. I mean...really? Another gotta get rose? Sigh.

LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Hi Herding,
I feel badly that you will have to dig another hole, but FM is a really nice rose.
Hope today is a good one.
Diane


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

I have been following your story with great enjoyment. MY best friend had thyroid cancer surgery with Radiation treatment 2 years ago. She was pretty weak and sick for the first month but by the end of the winter she was so much better then she had been in years! I am hoping you will find that too. Plan to take it easy for a while after surgery. The body takes time to sort itself out. Changing what is happening with thyroid throws the whole body for a loop, but once it is healed, you will have so much more CALM energy that you can recover the time when it feels like your garden was neglected. Just be prepared to sit back and enjoy being in the garden without working on projects! THat is your task...to be IN your garden but not in charge for a while and let it tell you things about itself. Sit and listen.

May your surgery go well, and the healing be a time of peace. I will be thinking about you.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Lizalily, thanks for that...I love hearing good stories. We are not sure about radiation/I-131 treatments yet, just that surgery is what is the most likely first step. Yes, the thyroid controls so much of what happens in our bodies that when it's off, everything goes batty...

I am looking forward to CALM energy, as you said...not this fluttery anxiety-fueled energy that I've had for a while. And yes, it will be the hard part - to sit on my swing and relax in the garden instead of working on it...that will be the hard part. Sitting and listening.

Thank you so much for the encouragement. I appreciate it a lot. More, perhaps, than you'd know.

Nanadoll, it's not a hole that bothers me...rather, it's a good location for a new rose. I'm struggling to figure out where all the roses go now, let alone a new one. LOL. FM does indeed sound like a gorgeous, fragrant, perfect-under-window rose, though...so I may just have to figure it out.

Tomorrow is another day, as Scarlet O Hara would say...I'll be getting some things done in the garden tomorrow; now that I know I'll be putting Q. Liz in a big tub until I know where her final home will be, I'll hopefully be getting that whole area handled tomorrow...Queen Liz out and replanted, and then both Gruss An Aachens into the ground. To be able to get that done would make me happy indeed...because then that front bed would be mostly complete.

BTW, does anyone know when it's a good time to put bands into the ground? I've got two that I want to get into the ground, but they're still sort of small...both, however, have bloomed for me (a Fragrant Plum and St. Cecilia), so they're doing all right so far.

But I don't know when I should put them into the ground...what height or age, or whatever. If anyone could give me that info, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Cats

Did you notice the Weeks roses tag on the Belinda's Dream? It says it is on its own root. Never occurred to me that they might do own roots on some roses.


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Kippy, I didn't get a Belinda...but yes, it never occurred to me that Otto would do own root. Big, happy healthy bush though, right?

Or did you mean Weeks does own root?

Sorry, I'm a tad muddled right now. I had a fine needle biopsy on my thyroid done this afternoon, and there was ativan and vicodin involved. Still utterly freaked me out, but in a mellow, calm sort of way. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

Kippy, I didn't get a Belinda...but yes, it never occurred to me that Otto would do own root. Big, happy healthy bush though, right?

Or did you mean Weeks does own root?

Sorry, I'm a tad muddled right now. I had a fine needle biopsy on my thyroid done this afternoon, and there was ativan and vicodin involved. Still utterly freaked me out, but in a mellow, calm sort of way. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

LOL Cats, turns out even on meds your more with it than me!

I thought you had gotten a Belinda from Ottos, I had picked up a couple and for what ever reason I was thinking you had gotten Belinda-turns out it was Gruss an Aachen we both got.

I left the tag on mine was adding some drippers (just in time for rain)and noticed the Weeks Ownroot tag. Just looked at their on-line catalog and Weeks has several ownroots. The Fairy is listed as own root at Weeks


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RE: New, Need Help Part II: the Saga Continues

LOLing at you...no, Kippy...not if you realize I posted the same thing twice. ROFL. Oh well.

Yes, I have two Gruss An Aachens, and they are delightful. I haven't planted my two Fairys, so haven't looked at the tag, but they strike me as own root, the way they've grown so far. So now I'll look. LOL.

And yes, I fixed a drip line today, just in time for the rain here, as well. And if I have a chance, the Q. Lizzy has just finished blooming, and I will prune her down a ways, and get her potted up.

and then I can get the Gruss An Aachens into the ground...

And I got a HUGE compliment from my across the street neighbor. She and I have a good friendship going, and she came over the other day to look at my roses. She thinks I'm brilliant at gardening (I'm absolutely not...LOL), and she wants me to come over in January and teach her to prune.

Of course, I told her I would...but still, it's funny she thinks I know what I'm doing.

I will have to look at Otto and Sons, and Weeks, and see what I can see about own root...

Best-
Herding Cats


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