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The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Posted by brandyray Coastal NC/8a (My Page) on
Tue, Oct 2, 07 at 22:50

I know there have been comments about the disease resistance of Tantau and Kordes roses before. Another GWer referred me to Pickering and they carry a large selection of roses by these two hybridizers. I'm interested in red and orange/blend roses for a no spray garden. Which of these roses have you had good results w/? Two pictures that really attracted me were Gallivarda and Oriana - both pictured at HMF as red w/ yellow reverse- stunning. Anyone have either of those?
I am putting together an order for Pickering and need some help finalizing my choices- so far, Illusion, Chrysler Imperial, Westerland, and maybe Pat Austin. Thanks! Brandy


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

In my garden, Kordes roses have the best disease resistence. If you have an organic rose garden then be aware that many orange roses do suffer from BS more than other colours. Again in my PNW garden, Westerlane and Pat Austin are clean.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

There is a current thread titled "Brothers Grimm Fairy Tale: anyone growing this?", which is about a red (or orange)/yellow blend Kordes rose. You might find it worth reading.

Speaking from the arid west, I rarely see any blackspot, so I can't comment on that subject. Don't you hate me? If it makes you feel any better, I do get very cold weather...

I suggest that you look at Palatine Roses, also in Canada. They specialize in Kordes roses and ship enormous plants. I have tried both sources and am only ordering from one for next year.

Here is a link that might be useful: rose supplier


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Thank you, lynette and well-rooted. Westerland is on my list to order, I'm less sure about Pat Austin because of varying reports about bs. I love the colors of both but have not seen either in real life.
No, I don't envy you, WR- temps here rarely get below 18 degrees :)
I looked up the thread you mentioned. My only concern is what does one do w/ these long canes? Should I try to plant it where it has that much room, grow it as a climber, or just prune them off? I loved the color of that rose. Brandy


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Black Spot is a major problem here. My poor attention to my spray program caused a serious outbreak in August. Overall, my Kordes Hybrid Teas faired slightly better than the other HT's. Folklore and Belame (sp?) kept most of their leafs while Adolph Horstmann was almost defoliated.

Westerland was a champion. With a defoliated Peace almost touching him, Westerland had almost no spots. He just kept growing and blooming and reached 10' in year 2.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Thank you HarryS, I've got Folklore and just ordered Westerland. I did notice on HMF that some roses from growers known for breeding resistance are listed as bs prone or mildew prone, so I've tried to check out every rose before I ordered. Brandy


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

  • Posted by jont1 Midwest 5b/6a (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 4, 07 at 2:24

I grow a lot of Kordes roses in my garden and I personally think they are superior roses against disease than many other breeding lines of roses. As a whole, I think the more modern roses of all types and breeding lines are superior with regards to disease resistance as well.
However, that being said, I think the most important aspect of healthy and winter hardy roses is a matter of feeding and watering and protecting your roses all year round, not just in the winter time part of the year. Otherwise, you will not have healthy and hardy roses that can withstand winter chill and dryness as well as staving off attacks of fungal infections that are bound to come your way.
Good luck with yours!!
John


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Thank you, John. It is all sand here. I've been adding mulch to the hole, & shredded bamboo leaves. I've got some well-rotted (horse) manure but am afraid to apply that at this time of the year. I figured I would scratch it into the soil next to each rose in late winter so it can trickle down. If I could have gotten it earlier I had planned to work it into the soil but it's so late in the year, I'd be afraid to now.
As far as organic matter, the only other thing readily available would be woodland litter- mostly pine straw. The sand is acidic, so I'm not sure adding that would be a good idea.
I do need to get the soil tested but I plan to wait til winter- after the amendments have had time to settle in.
I prefer to use organic fertilizers, usually fish emulsion, bone meal and blood meal. Maybe someone out there knows of a complete organic fertilizer available for roses? And where I could get it? Brandy


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Brandy, it is not totally organic due to the super phosphate, but Espoma Rose (or Flower or Holly) Tone should be available in your area.

The Kordes roses that I received this year have been pretty good with resistance. Rosenstadt Friesing has been excellent resistance-wise, and it continues to be a beast, I think it ate a squirrel yesterday, I just wish it bloomed more.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Brandy, you asked about the long canes. For me the plant is just a bit floppy at the end of the season, so this year I have not worried about it. However, if it gets taller (and the canes aren't any thicker) next year then I would erect a tripod around it. This idea came from Shelley when I asked about nodding Austins in another thread.

From that same thread Nancy told me that she phoned a nursery about this sort of problem and they told her to prune the rose to the ground in the spring and that worked well for her. I can see that working but Mother Nature takes care of that for me and some Austins are still floppy, so a tripod appears to be the solution.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

I like Kordes roses and especially appreciate any extra disease resistance since I don't spray. I am currently growing Lavaglut and Kardinal. Ingrid Bergman has been cleaner this year than either one of those. I have to say that Daniela Kordana, a Kordes grocery store mini, has far less blackspot than I would expect. Hasn't been sprayed all year, has most of its foliage with just a few spots. It is cleaner than Lavaglut (but doesn't bloom as much). It makes a cute pot plant -- hybrid tea shaped blooms. My experience with this little rose makes me think that Kordes takes disease resistance seriously in all its roses.

QC


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

I wonder where is Jim of New York now? LOL.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

ceterum

I'm here. Couldn't get on this page for awhile.

I keep looking at my roses still blooming and say to myself, gee those Kordes roses are great. Then it hits me that I have so many that I don't have anyone else to compare them with.

Eutin is a champ. No BS and even no JB's. And it blooms a lot. Little known as it is old (1937).I have a new Tantau, Bernstein Rose that is small but has already bloomed profusely twice. Some of my other new roses either haven't bloomed or very little. Rosarium Uetersen is also good on BS. A climber so it takes time to get some size.Tip hardy. I have so many it is difficult to comment on all of them. But I find them superior to others I've tried.

Everyone here is I think tired of hearing about Kordes from me.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

I have limited rose experience, but last year I bought 4 huge Ruby Vigorosa (aka, Rotilia) from Palatine. I don't spray. I rarely even deadhead them. They have had virtually no disease (I can't remember even seeing leaves affected with BS, much less serious defoliation). And I live in New Orleans, land of heat and humidity and lots of BS. Obviously I can't talk about their susceptibility to cold, but the Kordes roses I have are pretty much no maintenance. I also know that many of Kordes' roses have the ADR certification where they undergo a 3-year trial with no spraying or particular special care but still do well. The only drawback are the huge thorns (and my particular variety isn't very fragrant).


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

At the September ARS National in St. Louis, one of the speakers was a breeder from Kordes. He pointed out that 1990 was the year that they quit spraying in the fields. That is when disease resistance truly became a criteria for selection. Kordes roses before that time may or may not be disease resistant. They undergo trials in various gardens across Germany and have to pass the tests.

After that presentation, I decided that I would do some shopping at Palatine for some of those new ones. I believe that Kordes has discontinued their relationship with Jackson & Perkins and that will likely make them more available here in the US. Jackson & Perkins would rather promote their own roses.

Dawn


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Thank you, Jim, (I'm not tired of hearing from you), Asphard and Dawn. Eutin has been highly recommended but I will probably wait til spring on it. It is a smaller rose, so I will want to put it in front of something leggy.
I am impressed to discover that it is CHEAPER to order roses from Canada than from the next county over!!! Amazing!
If I was to get Vigorosa, I would probably plant it in front w/ my baby Homerun. This is a foundation planting w/ hollies and camellias and will require a very hardy rose. (It is actually a more protected spot as far as cold than the rose garden I am creating in back.) Thank all of you for your feedback! I will probably post a thread soon listing all the roses I have ordered so every one can oooh, ah, and boo. Brandy


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Love Kordes in SoCal. A little BS in spring. Fine now. No spray. FYI rose eating mammals love Kordes, too.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

It does not seem that disease-resistance on this side of the Atlantic ocean is the same as disease resistance on the other side of the Atlantic ocean.

I grow many new varieties of roses (Kordes, Tantau, Meilland, Austin and Poulsen Roses). Since I am able to grow them a few years before they are introduced in USA/Canada. Some of them are outstanding when it comes to disease resistance.

I have however decided to refrain from making comments about any roses disease resistance here on the rose forums anymore. It always turns out that some claim that disease resistance in Europe can not be compared to disease resistance in America. It is my beliefs that the widespread use of fungicides in America are responsible for fungicide resistant strains of fungi in America, strains that are more agressive and can not be controlled by fungicides anymore.
Many agricultural studies have shown the increase of fungicide resistance, causing fungicides to be banned here in Europe for use by private gardeners.

There are also different climate differences ( Even though roses are tested in USDA zones 4-9 ) there are always some forums members that says that disease resistance can not be compared because of climate differences.

Then there are different strains of fungi (Blacspot, Mildew and Rust). I do believe that they make a difference. New totally disease resistant European rose varieties, have not been exposed to those strains of fungi.

So I will not comment on disease resistance on any roses more here on these forums. Since it is pointless. Roses that are totally disease resistant here do not seem to be disease resistant over there (According to some forums members). And roses that are disease prone over here (defoliates by Blackspot) are said to be disease resistant over there).

Take FX. The Austin Rose "The Mayflower": said to be disease resistant by Austin. I remember seeing Olga writing that it defoliates by blackspot in her garden.

So I have only decided to make posts about other qualities of roses than disease resistance. My opinion based on my observations here in Various parts of Europe does not matter and always ends up being faulted by some forum members anyway. So I will not answer questions about disease resistance any more.

As for Kordes and Tantau roses and some other European roses
theck the ADR listings. But again I suspect it is pointless ...

Here is a link that might be useful: ADR roses


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Thank you, cupshaped. I did not recognize very many names when I looked at the ADR list- are some of them sold under different names? I am sorry that all the chemicals are available here w/o any required training. It makes me cringe when I see arsenic being sold to kill ants, and bags of chemicals readily available to anyone to use in any way. I've seen people spraying herbicides while wearing shorts and sandals. We know that cancer usually takes about 20 yrs to develop, but we just don't think about it applying to us. Did you know that working around paints and thinners is a risk factor for leukemia? Or that the use of certain classes of yard chemicals can increase the risk of a child developing cancer? Sorry to get so gloomy. I have lost a lot of family members to cancer- mostly due to dietary choices. Brandy


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

It is helpful to know what ADR roses mean. And yes many of the roses are sold under different names. I have no idea why???
Vigorosa( or Apricot Vigorosa ) is the Kordes Roses "Aprikola".
It really is wise to look for roses that have good disease resistance IN THE AREA WHERE YOU LIVE. It is often a process of trial and error to find those. Some roses are worth growing even if they have to be sprayed, and many tolerate mild fungi attacks when growing roses. Or choose to grow a few roses that needs spraying and try choosing roses that have good disease resistance in the area/even the spot where they are grown. Some insects and roses disease make gardening annoying. Many will try organic/biological methods first, Before making gardening = Chemical warfare. I am not against the use of limited amount of fungicides /organic insecticides, but spraying every week is a bit too much IMO. In any case we risk fungicide resistant strains of Rose Fungi. I am very pleased to see the trend towards more organic gardening and not least farming. The demand for organic grown crops and meat has risen dramatically. I even think the new trend here in Europe will be organic grown roses ... . I am sorry for your loss of relatives.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Thank you, cupshaped. Brandy


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Hi Cupshaped,

Although I agree that resistance here in Europe is not entirely the same as resistance in North America, I do believe that a variety that is resistant here has a higher chance of being resistant there, especially in areas with similar climate conditions. So, it is always interesting to hear from people in other places what roses are resistant for them. Apparently, the new Kordes roses are doing very well in the disease resistance department, not only in Europe but also in North America.

That said, there is another reason why you should not feel reluctant to share information about resistance of roses in your garden: there are also other Europeans frequenting these forums! :-)

Rob


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

I was thinking the same Rob. That the new extremely disease resistant introductions would do well in America. The roses we grow over here that seems to never get any diseases at all.
Eden Rose FX is totally disease resistant over here, but seems to get rust in coastal areas of the US west coast. While it never gets any diseases here in all the places I have seen it Europe.
So Yes I will post about the new introductions ... And also about their disease resistance in the European rose forum. (Which is very slow) ...People seems to use their national Rose Forums more since it is rare to meet other Europeans here on the forum, that is more for Americans. Is there any Dutch Rose Forums?

Brandy: I see you like Hybrid Teas. Another Tantau Rose that
has the orange blend colours you like are "Chippendale". It has more Old Garden Rose Shaped flowers, What the Germans refer to as Nostalgic roses. It has the colour of men who has been spray tanned or use too much self tanning lotion. It is gorgeous ...the rose ...not the beefcakes :-)

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Wow, that rose is gorgeous! What a vibrant color and I love the packed petal shape. I looked it up on HMF and it is listed as fragrant! Unfortunately, it is not available in the U.S. yet. (As for the beefcakes, thanks for the thought.) Brandy


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

It is very fragrant! Hortico (Canada) can deliver this and many other kordes and Tantau roses

Here is a link that might be useful: Chippendale


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Cupshaped - how orange this orange? In your photo it looks subtle, something I could live with. HMF photos also show very complex colors.
Let's try this: how would you compare Chippendale with Tropicana or Fragrant Cloud?


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Tropicana and Fragrant cloud are much more uniform in colour.
Tropicana being to my eye Orange-red , while Fragrant Cloud is Red-orange. Chippendale is like you say more subtle in the orange Colouring. It can be quite a chameleon, like the Rose Alchymist, or Abraham Darby and Charles Austin. "Orange blend" is the correct term ...they have hints of orange, outer petals fade to pinkish orange and the base of the petals and some of the inner petals are sometimes yellow, mixed with orange and pink. Sometimes they are very orange (especially in early stages), but in bright hot conditions in full sunlight they fade to a abricot-pink. So they go well together with many roses.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

It can be quite a chameleon like the rose Alchymist, or Abraham Darby

t in bright hot conditions in full sunlight they fade to a abricot-pink.

Hurray!

Thank you, thank you. That's what I was hoping for! There is hope for me with Chippendale.
I love the pictures of Alchymist (I do not grow it) and love Abraham Darby's in every shade he is capable of producing.
You did see the thread about which orange is truly orange or something similar because you posted a photo there there are photos of some orange roses in that thread that I truly feel very harsh, especially planted in a very hot and humid climate.

Do you have or did you see the Albrecht Durer rose? Not very blackspot resistant based on the rating in the Tantaus catalog, so I am interested what did you see or experience. Or, what can you tell me about Barock?
I know that you considered Gartentrume as one of the very best. I do hope Pickering will have a few next year on. If not, I will risk ordering it/them from Hortico. I tried to order Augusta Louise last year, I was told they had it, I got the invoice then a week before the December shipping date I got a call that they do not have it only next year about the end of March (too late to plant bare roots in myzone) but no guarantee even then. So I canceled the order.

As to disease resistance I think the issue is a bit more complex. I checked all the roses in Tantaus Nostalgie series, and only 3 roses were marked by the Tantau firm! As having complete black spot resistance: Chippendale (interesting, considering the color), Elfe and The First Lady (pretty but zero fragrance).

So it seems that you cannot claim that all the new Tantau roses are completely disease resistant to blackspot and Americans just want to be nay sayers. Humidity here on the east coast is much worse than any hot and humid weather I experienced in Europe. So if a new Tantau rose is less than 100% blackspot resistant, rest assured it will blackspot in my coastal humid inferno and probably will get more bs in the mid-Atlantic.

It does not mean that I will not grab and buy them when they will be available here or in Canada. But I am prepared to spray them. If I dont have to, the merrier I will be.

*(Many, many more roses are marked as fully resistant to mildew though)


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

I will certainly not claim that ALL Americans are Naysayers... some are.

As for the Tantau ratings for Disease resistance it is my experience that they are way underrated. Many roses who only get 1 star out of 3 have year after year shown their superiority when it comes to disease resistance and wins the roseshow (not because of the flower, but the immaculate shiny leaves). It sometimes takes about 10 years before a rose becomes popular .. then gardeners have seen how well it does and the words spreads. So having only 1 star rating from Tantau for Disease resistance have often proved they have underrated their roses!

In the fall 2007/spring 2008: these roses have gotten 3 stars for blacspot resistance.

Chippendale
Elfe
First Lady
Marietheresia
Nostalgie
Pastella
Piano
Goldstern
Uetersener Klosterrose
Castella
Feuerwerk
Rosario
White Haze
Aspirin Rose
AlpenGluhen
Mirato
Rugosa foxi series
Rosita
Satina
Schneekonigin
Bayerngold
Goldelse
Apricot clementine
hobby
Acapella
Barkarole
Duftrausch
Lady like
Violina

How they have come to this rating is unclear? What matters to me is personal experience. Growing the rose myself, or seeing some of my rose friends growing them and they are immaculate year after year (I do not care so much for the rating)

I notice the red HT Barkarole have gotten 3 stars. But I have seen it get BS in some gardens anyway.

I do think some orange roses can be too harsh ...but many Orange blend roses are much better. Albrect durer Rose is another one of those chameleons. I have never seen Bs or mildew on these. So much for ratings.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Thank you for the list, cupshaped. I would prefer not to order from Hortico. Maybe Chippendale will be available more widely soon?
As for Taboo/Barkarole, this is near the top of my 'to order' list, so it concerns me that you say it sometimes gets bs. So many have recommended it as clean or almost clean. Brandy


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

It can be quite a chameleon like the rose Alchymist, or Abraham Darby

t in bright hot conditions in full sunlight they fade to a abricot-pink.

Hurray!

Thank you, thank you. That's what I was hoping for! There is hope for me with Chippendale.
I love the pictures of Alchymist (I do not grow it) and love Abraham Darby's in every shade he is capable of producing.
You did see the thread about which orange is truly orange or something similar because you posted a photo there there are photos of some orange roses in that thread that I truly feel very harsh, especially planted in a very hot and humid climate.

Do you have or did you see the Albrecht Durer rose? Not very blackspot resistant based on the rating in the Tantaus catalog, so I am interested what did you see or experience. Or, what can you tell me about Barock?
I know that you considered Gartentrume as one of the very best. I do hope Pickering will have a few next year on. If not, I will risk ordering it/them from Hortico. I tried to order Augusta Louise last year, I was told they had it, I got the invoice then a week before the December shipping date I got a call that they do not have it only next year about the end of March (too late to plant bare roots in myzone) but no guarantee even then. So I canceled the order.

As to disease resistance I think the issue is a bit more complex. I checked all the roses in Tantaus Nostalgie series, and only 3 roses were marked by the Tantau firm! As having complete black spot resistance: Chippendale (interesting, considering the color), Elfe and The First Lady (pretty but zero fragrance).

So it seems that you cannot claim that all the new Tantau roses are completely disease resistant to blackspot and Americans just want to be nay sayers. Humidity here on the east coast is much worse than any hot and humid weather I experienced in Europe. So if a new Tantau rose is less than 100% blackspot resistant, rest assured it will blackspot in my coastal humid inferno and probably will get more bs in the mid-Atlantic.

It does not mean that I will not grab and buy them when they will be available here or in Canada. But I am prepared to spray them. If I dont have to, the merrier I will be.

*(Many, many more roses are marked as fully resistant to mildew though)


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+RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

My apologies for the double post - I have no idea how it happened.

Brandy, Barkarole is not 100% BS free here but still worth growing and much better than a lot of other roses. Or, Osiana,another Tantau, despite being a florist rose has more or less healthy foliage. Furthermore there are roses that improve and there are roses that deteriorate in disease- issues.

For example: Papa Meilland is far better now as he was when I planted it, while Frederic Mistral was very clean for 3-4 years and he isn't now; FM still does not defoliate but positively spotty.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Thank you, ceterum. I will still plan to order Barkarole for spring. Brandy


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

I found this pdf by Denver Rose Society Consulting Rosarian, Carol Macon. It is available for download from the link below.
She wrote it in 2009. I don't think it's been available on the internet that long (might have been) - I can't believe I wouldn't have found it sooner.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kordes Roses


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Thank you, sandandsun. I have not bought any more roses in a couple yrs, but I do have some that need to be shovel pruned :(
so I may yield to temptation and order some replacements. After a quick glance at the Kordes info, I am most interested in the climbers- especially the yellow one. Thanks for the info.


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

You are welcome, brandyray.

I just listened to Rose Chat Radio's discussion of the 2014 Kordes introductions with Kordes' US agent.

The page is linked below:

Here is a link that might be useful: New Kordes Roses for 2014 : Chris Pellett


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

I like to download the mp3 and listen to it on my installed player. To do that, just click the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Download Rose Chat Radio's New Kordes Roses for 2014


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

Westerland has done well for me- some black spot but it keeps blooming. Reve d'Or is outgrowing her space-very healthy. Fields of the Wood- also good. Red Cascade- totally disease free- but tiny roses and no scent.
My roses have not gotten enough care and I need to do better so there will be more blooms next wk (I let too many tithonias pop up and they shaded the roses). I'm planning to shovel prune one of my climbers (balling) and would like to plant a yellow climbers there- suggestions? Looking at the Kordes website, I was wondering about Golden Gate or Moonlight? Anybody know anything about either of them, or another yellow climber? Maybe I should start a new thread...


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RE: The disease resistance of Tantau & Kordes roses

I am glad to see this thread updated.

I think cupshaped--I do wish she and Jim from West NY were still posting here--made a very good point about fungi developing resistance to fungicides, In view of the recent news about "superbugs" and "superweeds" having evolved resistance to herbicides and Bt engineered corn, I think her point is one we American gardeners ought to be taking seriously.

I am growing and trying to preserve some of the older Tantau floribundas. They do BS, but leaves grow back quickly when I cut off the spotted ones, and do seem to be hardy with protection. The colors are like nothing else I have seen among roses.

Paul Zimmerman has said in writings and videos that roses will often develop some resistance, as individual plants, to the diseases that might be present in one's own area.


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