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Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

Posted by cjrosaphile z8 Pacific NW (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 4:11

I've had really bad luck with Heirloom Roses HT bands. I purchased a Velvet Fragrance last summer and it has barely grown as all. This has happened with others that I purchased to the point where I am considering only purchasing grafted HTs. Opinions?


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

I have always stayed away from Heirloom's bands because I didn't want to have to baby an underdeveloped plant. I think that is why many gardeners plant the band in a pot--to give it a more protective environment until it grows larger and stronger and can be planted directly in the garden. Of course, others claim they plant the bands right away in the ground and the bands do fine. I don't know which is the best way, but I stay away from them just so I don't have to bother and worry over them.

I think there is sometimes some confusion between a band (tiny) and a potted own root rose such as one might get from a place like Roses Unlimited or Chamblees (and some other places). Those roses are growing in 1 gal. or 2 gal. pots usually and thus are older (bigger and stronger). Since they may have been growing in a greenhouse, I give them several day outside in partial shade to part sun to harden off before I plant them directly in the ground. I have never had any problem with those plants quickly adjusting and growing in the garden.

If I understand grafted bareroot plants correctly, they are probably a couple years old by the time we get them. They have to have a decent root system--which takes some time. In other words, they are not tiny "babies" like bands are.

For HT type roses, I prefer grafted bareroots--they seem to have more oomph and get going faster than other versions, and some roses need that extra stimulous provided by the more vigorous rootstock on which the rose is grafted--but I wouldn't turn down an own root HT if someone wanted to give it to me or that was the only form in which I could find a dearly desired rose.

If I didn't say all of that correctly, I'm sure someone will come along and correct me, but that is how I have always understood the differences.

Kate


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

By and large, Hybrid Teas are not as vigorous as many other classes, which is the main reason so many of them are sold on grafts. The Tea lineage is not very winter hardy. I'm one who plants my bands directly, no interim pot time. I've learned never to plant the HTs in the fall--they don't have enough time before winter. And they are always iffy for the first couple of years. I lose more HTs than anything else, esp the yellow ones--all the yellow genes come from warm climates.

I carved out a large circular bed on a gentle slope and planted 8 yellow HT with a white LFClimber in the center. I called it my Sun Circle. Only one HT is still alive and I moved it and the climber.


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

Excellent question and excellent answers thus far, IMHO.

I'm an "own root only" gardener.

As has been stated indirectly, good growth requires good roots. The less developed a root system is to begin with, the longer it takes to establish a good one. (Some band roses are actually just newly rooted cuttings. Others have better developed root systems and which of these one receives can be a reflection of the inherent vigor, lack thereof, market demand, or the quality of the nursery, etc.).

And then there's that Vigor component. Besides the perceived (or actual) faster-to-market aspect of grafting, grafting has historically been relied upon to allow otherwise weak rose plants to come to market by having the rootstock overcome the vigor issue. HTs intended for exhibitors assumed all manner of special fungicidal, pruning, and fertilization regimes to compensate for the rose's issues. And HTs for the exhibitor market dominated the market for decades as Tom Carruth explained in the article referenced in the link below. (One has to scroll down in that thread to get the article link, but the entire thread is worthwhile, IMHO).

Like the image of heaven and hell, there is a vast divide between the requirements for a good bench rose and a good garden rose. Exceptions do exist, but I won't hazard naming even one.

The very modern HTs with health and vigor may prove to grow as well from bands as others, like good OGRs, but their newness combined with their high demand in the 1 gallon size means we mostly don't know that yet. But I suspect it will be so.

Here is a link that might be useful: Huntington member article on the decline of the rose hobby

This post was edited by sandandsun on Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 11:08


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 12:07

Own root roses as a rule are a little less vigorous depending on the variety, of course. The whole purpose of grafting a rose onto another root stock is to add vigor to it. That's why strong growing and sometimes problematic suckering roses are used for root stock. Those roots add a great deal of strength to what might not be a very vigorous variety on it's own roots.

But the other reason they're slower is that they're younger and smaller starting out. They may only be a few months old rooted cutting and will take anywhere from 3 to 5 years to reach any kind of maturity. Grafted roses are usually a least a couple of years old root stock with a budded variety on it. It's an older, more grown out root ball to start out with. That bigger root ball is better able to feed the grafted buds and help them to grow faster.

Many of the modern HTs, particulary from the 30s thru the 90s, were bred to be grafted. That was the way roses were grown during those years for the most part so the breeders never tested them as own root plants to see how they grew. It wasn't a consideration. It's only more recently that own root roses have become more popular and breeders are testing them for that kind of production.

There is nothing wrong with own root roses. They just require more patience and time to develop into mature plants. Yes, some of them may never be huge bushes on their own roots but they will grow in time. And every variety will have it's own time table for that growth. You can't compare one variety's growth with another's. They're like children and each need to grow at their own pace.


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

In my warm and dry climate I'm successfully growing several early hybrid teas own-root from band pots, which I planted in the ground about a week after their arrival. I think my climate accounts in large part for that success, and also faithful watering and heavy mulching. In colder and wetter climates I've heard that own-root hybrid teas are very difficult to establish and may not be the best way to go. I disbud the roses for at least the first year and sometimes part of the second one to increase the vigor of these roses and that seems to help. I've never tried an own-root hybrid tea from Heirloom; mine are from Vintage, Rogue Valley and Burlington Roses.

Ingrid


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

My Velvet Fragrance was from Northland Rosarium. They sent a good sized plant and it grew very well. I followed Kim's feeding schedule for one gallon sized potted roses and did not let the plant go dry and I kept the pot /roots cool by shading it with another pot. In temps above 93 F, it sat under the shade of a tree. I have had Heirloom bands eventually become good large bushes so don't give up yet. I don't think it's the variety causing the slow growth.


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

I planted 6 hybrid teas from Northland Rosarium, all in whiskey barrels, early in the spring. They haven't bloomed as much as my grafted hybrid teas, but they have bloomed all season, especially Marijke Koopman, she's been quite prolific and now the blooms they have are every bit as big as my grafted ones. For the most part the bushes look healthy and they have grown quite a bit. My mystery rose, which I (with help from others) think is Granada has 3 nice size buds on it right now. I am hopeful they will catch up with my grafted ones by next season. I am not necessarily advocating own-root, but if that is the only way a particular hybrid tea variety is available, at this point i wouldn't hesitate to purchase it.


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

Actually, the issue really isn't own root vs budded.

When these roses were first introduced to commerce, they were introduced as budded roses because that was the industry norm. When a seedling was chosen to be tested, it was budded. Many of the roses would have been fine as own root plants, but they were never tested as own root. Of course, the opposite is also true. Many of them would have never been viable plants had they not been budded.

Now that the roses are being sold as own root plants, they still haven't been tested to see if they will grow well own root. So, you are always taking your chances when you purchase a band of a rose that had previously been a successful budded rose. Who knows whether the rose will do well own root ? No one. That's why these forums are so useful because we can share our experience with these roses now that we are growing them own root.

Yes, budded plants are more mature and take off faster, but the art of budding is becoming a lost art and the industry norm is changing to sell them as own root plants.

There is only one nursery in my area that I will purchase a budded plant from because whoever is their subcontractor that supplies their roses, knows how to bud roses well. This year, they are not carrying any roses that call my name, so I won't be adding roses to the garden this year.

Smiles,
Lyn


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

I have not ordered from Burlington roses but I understand she is sending out superior plants. The Huntington is having her produce some budded HTs for their sale next spring and I am going to have a look at some of her hard work then.


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

Back before the rose industry imploded, Weeks was moving to own-root because (as Lynn mentioned) the art of budding was being lost. Older budders retired. Young people chose not to work on their knees in the fields, but to go to college. Understandably.

Tom Carruth told me that they were testing their roses, to see which would flourish on its own roots. Those that could not, they would likely drop.

So -- some just DON'T.

But, even if they do, sure, those roses are going to take some time -- at least an extra year -- to become mature plants. And, rather than that process taking place in rose fields in Wasco, it's taking place in your garden.

Jeri


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RE: Are Hybrid Tea bands not as vigorous?

Kitty - Do you have a link to Kim's post on a feeding schedule for one gallon sized potted roses?


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