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| Was wondering about opinions on intensity of fragrance. If you took the very most fragrant HTs, and David Austins, and OGRs (in any specific or generalized categories) - do you think intensity and / or pleasingness of fragrance is comparable, or more in some over others? |
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| Probably more of the DA can be rated as intensely fragrant than other classes simply because fragrance is higher on his seedling selection list than many other breeders' lists. Of course more Austin roses should rate as highly scented than HTs, floribundas, even OGRs. One, or a very few people, select what's introduced and intense fragrance is one of the tip criteria. As for individual scents, you can find some from each class with as intense a fragrance as some from the other classes. Pleasingness of fragrance is highly individual taste. Kim |
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| Excluding DA's, probably the older OGRs, since scent was also selected for with them, while the Hybrid Teas were bred for color, shape and size. |
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| You might be surprised how many OGRs, particularly HPs were selected as exhibition roses where fragrance had very little to do with their "quality", much as it is today with exhibition HTs. Many of the more popular ones have been those with fragrance, but that more represents "selection", just as seedling selection at the Austin nursery does. If you read many of the old introductions and catalog descriptions, fragrance isn't mentioned at all. I'm sure it was as important a trait in Victorian and Edwardian times as it is now. Kim |
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- Posted by melissa_thefarm NItaly (My Page) on Tue, Nov 27, 12 at 0:00
| In the modern roses there's sometimes a link between color and scent. I don't know whether the fragrance was a breeding goal or whether it was just an accidental genetic link, where the hybridizer bred for color and the scent just came along. Quite a few deep red HTs have powerful Damask fragrance, that red that leans toward purple, not primary red or scarlet--those can be almost guaranteed to be scentless. And a number of the gray/lavender HTs and Floribundas I recall as having a strong lemony scent. In my experience the most intensely scented roses are precisely those Damask-scented Hybrid Teas: I can't have a bloom of 'Cl. Etoile de Hollande' on the table when I eat, the smell is so strong. But the scent doesn't waft like, for example, a number of the Pemberton musks, 'Mme. Alfred Carriere', 'Mme. Plantier', or 'Jaune Desprez', all of which can be smelled at some yards' distance. |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Tue, Nov 27, 12 at 13:12
| Thank you, Melissa, for the above info. From my alkaline clay garden with 35+ strong scented roses, and from the 1,200 roses at Cantigny Park, plus the 5,000 roses at Chicago Botanical Gardens - nothing can beat Kim Rupert's 100% thornless Annie Laurie McDowell, its musk scent is glorious in alkaline clay ... a pure heaven mix of lavender and lilac. One Annie's bloom can perfume my entire kitchen. It's both a wafting scent, and when I stuck my nose into the bloom, I had to exclaim "Wow! this one smells good." Austin roses? Jude the Obscure is so strong that I'm afraid to stick my nose too close - strong like a tropical fruit mix (more intense than Golden Cel.) Mary Magdalene is cozy to stick one's nose into ... smells like a sparkling fireplace, a mystical Catholic's incense and frankincense. Old Garden Rose? Comte de Chambord is like an myrrh and floral perfume, but I prefer Paul Neyron's refreshing old garden rose scent. Jacques Cartier's scent is so-so in my alkaline clay, I prefer Crimson Glory. Hybrid teas? Rock and Roll grandiflora lives up to its description in Edmunds' catalog. My neighbor has one, it smells like intense wild rose, like Basyes Blueberry. Firefighter is the strongest red-rose scent, beat Crimson Glory, Mirandy, and William Shakespeare 2000. For sticking my nose into the bloom forever and never get sick of? It's a tie between Frederic Mistral, Sonia Rykiel, mini-rose Norwich sweetheart, and Annie L. McDowell. |
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| In my garden the most strongly scented roses are La France, Aunt Margy's Rose (it wafts somewhat), and the Austins Sister Elizabeth, Charmian and The Dark Lady. I have quite a few teas which to me are not fragrant except for Mme. Joseph Schwartz. The Bourbons I have are also fragrant, but not strongly or very deliciously to my nose. Belinda's Dream is also quite fragrant. I'm so glad I'll be getting Annie Laurie McDowell in the spring. I can't wait to smell this rose! Ingrid |
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| There are so many variables, from personal to cultural to climatic, that it's hard to pinpoint fragrance. There's no right or wrong answer. I've smelled quite a few OGRs along the way, and grew one of the most reportedly fragrant ones, Rose de Rescht, only to find most of my fragrant Hybrid Teas more to my liking (Chrysler Imperial, Tiffany, Rouge Royale, Falling In Love, McCartney Rose etc.). The Austins do have some unique fragrances and I loved the Baby Powder fragrance of Fair Bianca and the Myrrh scent of Tamora. I will have to agree with Ingrid though, one of the most powerfully fragrant roses I remember was La France. I wasn't expecting it when I put it to my nose and it really surprised me. As for a wafting fragrance, in my garden Our Lady of Guadalupe, given just the right conditions, will literally pull you over from yards away..........Maryl |
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- Posted by meredith_e 7B Piedmont NC (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 0:08
| For what I've grown, I'd say Austins are the most likely to be strongly scented if you picked one at random. Next for me are probably my Bourbons. Or my Noisettes? That is tough! Noisettes, I'd say. Then Bourbons. My HPs aren't very fragrant, lol. Moderns I grow are rarely fragrant, but I go for the blooms on those, for sure. I can't smell Teas. Chinas are never strong for me, either. I have a beautiful version of Rose Edouard (Bourbon) from Ashdown's that's one of the most fragrant, old-rose smelling roses I've ever come across. I'd pick Clotilde Soupert for a strongly-scented poly. Some seasons it doesn't show, though. And the wichuriana and multiflora ramblers always smell yummy if they are still close to the species, imho. Those are definite favorites! |
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| Strawberryhill, I find you to be an awful tease! "For sticking my nose into the bloom forever and never get sick of? It's a tie between Frederic Mistral, Sonia Rykiel, mini-rose Norwich sweetheart, and Annie L. McDowell." I've been pining over Sonia Rykiel from prior photos you posted. Sonia, Freceric and now Annie L.M. are on my next to indulge in list. I just looked up the photos of ALM, and am mesmerized. And having her hybridizer right her on this thread - it just doesn't get much better than that. |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam Sunset 23 So CA (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 1:50
| We actually got a few days in summer that had enough heat + humidity to experience wafting from the roses. I liked that. Usually I have to go over and smell the blossom just as the air starts warming up. I have written here before that one of my favorite things to do is go out and drink rain water out of fragrant roses the morning after a good rain. Madame Issac P. and La Reine work well for this but I have had equally nice perfumed water from HTs. I usually pour the rose water into a glass bowl. If I'm feeling really decadent, I splash it on my face. Most of my favorites have already been mentioned except for Radox Bouquet, Memorial Day, Pope John Paul II, and Sterling Silver. A month ago I had a Papa Meilland that was like the best ever Chrysler Imperial but with something else that made it richer. I have to say that it ties with Sonia Rykiel and Sterling Silver for best rose fragrance ever in a HT. I'm a big Jude the Obscure fan. I wait for them to bloom so I can carry the blossom around and enjoy the famous fragrance. Morning sun seems to give the best fragrance and you have to keep checking on the roses to see who smells good on any particular day. I like the perfume that was passed down to descendants of Sterling Silver and those of the Charlotte Armstrong family. Love Potion is a really pretty fragrance and never overpowering. I like a bouquet of Love Potion and Sterling Silver together. |
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| The strongest smellers in my garden are Barbra Streisand, Tiffany, Liv Tyler, Abraham Darby, Purple Passion, Francis Dubreuil, Munstead Wood and Pope John Paul II. Madame Scipion Cochet isn't the strongest smelling, but I really love it. Lady Hillingdon smells like honeysuckle to me, and I really love that too. I have Francis Meilland on order. Can't wait to smell it! |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 11:44
| Hi Harmonyp and Ingrid: I hope that your soil brings the best out of Annie Laurie McDowell like my alkaline clay. Thank you, Kittymoonbeam, for your kind words on Sterling Silver ... if I had known it's low-thorn, I would had bought it when I saw at Walmart for $7 in a gallon-pot. For some reasons Angel Face, a descendant of Sterling Silver, smells blah in my alkaline clay soil. This is a funny comment made by Goncmg in HMF, regarding Sterling Silver, " to this DAY there is nothing at all LIKE it, the color is so pure, and the plant is just not as bad as everyone "says" yeah, it is sold at Wal-Mart, now, 60 years later! THINK ABOUT THAT! There have been 30 or 70 others of similar color since 1957 which are NOT! It throws basal breaks like crazy, the leaves are deep purple when young, it loves to set hips (for all the amateur hybridizers) and somehow this one has ended up as "the drunk uncle at the wedding" when it truly is a little better than that! It is more available than "Angel Face"! And do not TELL me "Angel Face" does NOT have an ugly bush that grows lop-sided and does NOT blackspot like a fiend!" |
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| "This is a funny comment made by Goncmg in HMF, regarding Sterling Silver, " to this DAY there is nothing at all LIKE it, the color is so pure, and the plant is just not as bad as everyone "says" yeah, it is sold at Wal-Mart, now, 60 years later! THINK ABOUT THAT!" Sterling Silver is a perfect example of MARKETING. Yes, it is a lovely color with a very good scent, but it is NOT the quality of the rose which keeps it being pumped out and sold at discount stores for cheap prices, it is the LEGEND associated with the name and that is the result of the hype primarily J&P pumped out about it. There have been many, MUCH better mauve roses, but SS was the first to be so hyped and it is the name everyone knows. When perfect, it IS gorgeous. It's just finding that one, perfect example among the millions of "also ran" ones that requires much time, many resources and vast levels of chemicals. Kim |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 13:59
| Thanks for info., Kim, I love a challenge. I don't spray and tamed Paul Neyron for his scent alone. Sterling Silver is my next experiment for its scent alone. It's a descendant of Peace, my favorite blooming-fool in alkaline clay. It would be interesting to get Sterling Silver to grow its own-root and see how it performs in zone 5a. Diseases can be solved through fixing the soil - but I can't fix the thorns nor the no-scent trait, that's why I am after low-thorn and fragrant roses. |
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| I will "TELL you" that for me, Angel Face "does NOT have an ugly bush that grows lop-sided and does NOT blackspot like a fiend!" I love this rose. It defies our hot, dry summers, blooms beautifully, and gets many compliments from passersby. It smells good, too, and I've used its blooms for lots of bouquets. My strongest smelling roses, in descending order, are Frederic Mistral, Evelyn, Big Purple, Brother Cadfael, Jude the Obscure. Diane |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 14:34
| Thanks, Diane, you made me laugh. I checked the height of Angel Face, it's listed as 3' in HMF, versus Sterling Silver listed at 2'. THANK YOU, Diane, for saving me from buying Sterling Silver, listed among the top 10 roses to avoid by "Roses for Dummies" book. That's not as bad as this comment in HMF about Vavoom rose: "This is, in my garden, the only truly, terrifyingly ugly rose I have ever planted. It reminds me of a pit bull. The tiny leaves blackspot and no amount of babying seems to help. Lots of mean looking little thorns." That's a lot scarier than Sterling Silver. I used to grow Angel Face, but it's really short in zone 5a. By the time I cut it for the vase, it's down to 6 inches, and the bunnies finish the rest. Sterling Silver, a florist rose will be wimpier like a creeping vine. Yes, Kim Rupert, I shall listen to your wisdom, I still kick myself for defying your warning and bought Jacques Cartier, and that's another story. |
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| I'm glad you have a good sense of humor, Strawberry Hill. I wouldn't recommend Angel Face for you because of your area's wetness and humidity, though. I do want to clarify that for others living in wetter places than where I live, which is a desert. What is neat is that dry environments, like SW Idaho, give some of these roses that are awful in more humid places a chance to shine and show what they can do in the right climates. On the other hand, I have an awful time with certain roses that shrivel in about an hour in our dry summer heat. I need to remove a few of those. Diane |
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| I don't know if it's hardy enough for you, but I've just come back into possession of a Climbing Columbia, the marvelously fragrant, old Cl. HT I'd grown many years ago. It is thornless, which is what attracted me to it twenty-plus years ago. Kim |
Here is a link that might be useful: Cl. Columbia
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| In my garden class doesn't seem to make a difference in the scent scale. I have roses that are very fragrant in a wide range of classes from HT's & OGRs to minis. Every class seems to have those that are very fragrant and those that aren't. And between the ones that are fragrant it depends on the individual smelling them. Ones that I think smell amazing my brother can't even smell. So it's a very personal thing. |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 23:25
| My advice for those that want to grow Sterling Silver is to use your very best soil and don't cut the plant back. Just let it grow. I tie wayward canes up to a stake and I get my share of wonderful flowers. If I lived where it rained more or snowed I might not have any success with it. Because it doesn't freeze, the plant can keep growing. One of my Sterlings didn't mind being in a pot last winter and I put it next to a warm wall. I have a few and I can say that they hate shade and won't do well unless the soil is wonderful. They like to eat and have the best of everything. I think it's worth it. I just got 2 VI plants from Vintage and I hope they will be even better. |
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| I have fallen in love with Stainless Steel, and finally purchased one of her parents, Sterling Silver. I will pamper the heck out of her and see how we do. Her first bloom smelled like heaven. Strawberryhill - this was my Angel Face before the gophers killed her. I just recently replaced her:
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| Harmony, that is NOT the "traditional" Angel Face. Yours was definitely NOT one which had dried out in storage. It was also grown in a suitable climate with suitable culture and care. I haven't seen one approaching the high-culture quality of yours in MANY years! You did well by it. Kim |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam Sunset 23 So CA (My Page) on Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 16:40
| Angel Face can do very well in a 1/2 barrel where it has no competition for food and water from other roots. It has a nice rounded shape that is not too tall and always looked great with violas in winter. |
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| Here is my Angel Face, just one year of age, photo taken this past September. Not bad for a baby. Diane |
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| I wonder how many of those "body bag" roses labeled 'Sterling Silver' are actually something else that looks similar enough to convince the buying public, and that this may account for some of the different experiences. After all, so many of the people buying them will see the name and think "oh, that pale lilac rose with the nice smell" and be satisfied as long as what they grow matches that. I also remember from one of my books that another rose was called 'Sterling 95' for a while, but renamed to avoid confusion -- even though it was marketed as being similar in color but with better growth characteristics. I wonder if some of the mass-producers simply switched out their mother plants to the "new and improved" version. :-) ~Christopher |
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| That's a definite possibility, Christopher. MANY body bag, inexpensive producers supply roses of similar color to the name on the tag. Add the public's knowledge of the Sterling Silver name and it's a done deal. MANY years ago, I managed a jewelry department for a SoCal dept. store. I grew dozens of different lavender-lilac-mauve roses. I'd taken an enormous bouquet with many dozens of various blooms in those tones and set them on the counter. I can't tell you how many people passed by and exclaimed, "Look at all those Sterling Silvers!". Ironically, there were NO Sterling Silver blooms in the bunch. At that time, I had refused to grow it due to its demonstrated poor performance in my area. It wasn't until I obtained the florist stock of SS, the one I shared with Vintage that performed significantly better, I permitted it in my garden. Kim |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sat, Dec 1, 12 at 13:11
| I'm very impressed with Harmonyp and Diane's Angel Faces. Another person once typed Angel Face as "Angel Fart" and that's how it looks like in my zone 5a: little dumpling clump that's shorter than my petunias. It's shameful to post mine here. It smells like "Angel Fart" in my alkaline clay. |
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| Strawberry, I definitely have alkaline soil here in the desert, and Angel Face smells great, so I'm not sure your alkaline soil is what affects the smell of your plant. Diane |
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| Strawberry, are you sure you had Angel Face then? I know we all perceive scents differently, but Angel Face has a very light, fruity, sweet and lovely fragrance. I can imagine it having varying degrees of intensity, but not - not smelling sweet. I still have yet to understand what myrrh smells like (although I should this coming spring with Glamis Castle), but I understand it to smell like farts (tee hee) to some. Angel Face is known to have a fruity/citrus, not myrrh, fragrance. |
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| Myrrh is licorice. If you like licorice, you're likely to like the scent of myrrh. Personally, licorice has a "too sweet" element to my nose, combined with a solvent bitterness. I can't stand the taste, though I do enjoy small doses of the scent. The overly sweet element quickly diminishes, leaving the medicinal, solvent side which is completely objectionable to my tastes. Kim |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Sat, Dec 1, 12 at 20:11
| Myrrh reminds me very much of paperwhite narcissus blossoms. Most of my myrrh scented DA roses have myrrh + some other scent. Glamis castle seems to be the strongest myrrh with no other scent blended with it. I like myrrh best when it's a gentle supporting part of the fragrance. My appreciation for it has grown over the years. At first I did not like it at all in any amount. |
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