For me, it's 1) clearing all diseased foliage from underneath roses each year, and 2) the Minnesota Tip.

One of my rose beds was severely affected this year by BS, so I was told by 2 horticulturalists to rake out the diseased/fallen foliage before winter protecting. I spent an hour trying to rake the foliage out from under just one mega-shrub of 3 Double Delights, the most defoliated by BS. I used a hand rake, my fingers, a cobrahead weeder, all to no avail since the canes crowded in so much that I couldn't get inside of them. I finally gave up and asked my husband to just blow the leaf debris out using a leaf blower. Of course, who knows if that does more good or bad, since that ensured all the BS spores got airborn and blown everywhere, if they weren't so already. I have about 100 roses right now, and I couldn't imagine painstakingly getting all the leaf debris out from under every single rose, even if it makes good scientific sense to do.

Long ago, when I first started in roses, somebody told me about the Minnesota Tip. I thought then and still do now, you've got to be kidding! I'd rather have complete dieback than do all the work of taking the climber canes off of their support, digging up one side of the roots, and digging a trench to bury the canes. That's not to mention undoing it all in the spring. Who has time for that?

Please share impractical advices you've been given, and if you have a practical way of accomplishing any of the "impractical advices", please share the tricks that work for you as well.

GAAAAHHHH!!!
That may be OK for SOME roses, but for others, it's a slow way to kill them.

Jeri

The worst advice I remember is to till in old mulch and fertilizers around the roses. Around these parts, "cultivating" the bed surfaces is the perfect way to insure a forest of Dr. Huey from every broken root, no matter how small it is. As long as the soil is friable enough for water to get in to and earth worms to come out of, Nature will do a good enough job of working all the organics into the soil, and without any suckers. Kim

I guess she believed that because she'd done everything according to all the advice you all have talked about.

Olga, I have taken your pruning advice on once bloomers to heart and am enjoying the results. Thanks for beating the same drum so many times over the years.

Of course, when you have old-fashioned roses and other shrub roses, they love to be planted with other flowers (at least so far) and I don't do anything to them. I probably should do more, but not doing much...may just be the secret :)

The worst advice I ever heard was a lady who bought a house with a huge and gorgeous fence lined with OGRs and climbers. It was a magnificent display in the spring. She didn't know much about roses so she went to her local garden club and they told her to cut out all the green canes at the bottom to give the big woody ones room to grow. So over the next few years she did just that. She came to one of our rose meetings this spring and asked for help. Seems all her beautiful big roses looked spindly now and she had little or no bloom last year at all and couldn't figure out why? I made several visits to help her with spring pruning this year and through out the season. She was thrilled with the difference in her roses already and the next spring she'll get more blooms and the following year they'll be back to what she remembered when she bought the house.

I personally think "Garden Clubs" are a menace to roses! They pass out so much crappy advice about a plant most of them don't grow or like much and then can't figure out why "Roses are finicky and hard to grow."!

Roses don't need filet mignon, just as your dog doesn't (nor most of us) as long as they get the minimum of what they do need. In quite a few soils, that doesn't amount to much, from what I've witnessed. Sufficient water is frequently the greater issue. Kim

Here is another advice that is frequently given and I think is not practical. Remove all leaves with BS spots. It probably will work in climates where BS is not so widespread. Here, if your roses are not resistant (99% of roses) and you don't spray, this will mean remove basically all leaves. This will be a lot of work and will do no good to roses too. Leaves with BS are better than no leaves. And BS is everywhere anyway.
Olga

Threads like this that tell the actual experience of rosarians are invaluable to those who want to grow roses, and I don't think can be told too often. I am telling you the truth of what is in my heart.

My sister was shocked. "But I thought you HAVE to prune them!"
I pointed out that there was almost nothing to prune, and told her she should stick to the removal of dead stuff.

Jeri

Since I am a casual type person, I do not need perfection.

I thought I needed to perfect rose with the perfect blooms - they should look like what my father used to give my mother in a bouquet.

I now know that I want garden roses that have their own individuality, and I want a garden free of spray.

Dust in my home does not bother me too much (thanks to our two golden retrievers), but I was taught to avoid black spot. Actually I can overlook a little black spot, especially after some rainy weather, just as long as the rose grows leaves and blooms.

I used to feel that I owed something to the modern hybridizers, but now I know I need to grow roses that will perform well in my community. I wish my community were to do more to promote all kinds of plants, but since they don't do much, I can get great advice here.

More ideas will come as soon as I press submit. Thanks for the thread.

Sammy

Nothing else in our gardens has to be perfect at all times. Why do the roses? I cherish the ones which happily provide me with more perfectly developed ones without my having to coddle them. Not all are perfect, but much of the time, I can find some which fit that bill to hand to a visitor or enjoy on the table in the house. That's fine with me. Kim

Ingrid

For some, only the high-centered form of the exhibition Hybrid Tea rose is truly "beautiful." For others, that shape is unfulfilled, and unfulfilling. For some, nothing but roses should grow in a rose bed. For others, true beauty is found when rose bushes are part of a lush garden whole. It's all good.

Find what suits you, and work toward that, but never be afraid to change your vision and your plan as time goes on, and you learn more. If you want badly to grow a certain sort of rose, and people tell you that you can't -- TRY IT. Grow it, and see what happens. You don't have all that much to lose, and the gains in knowledge and satisfaction are immeasurable.

Have fun with your roses. Live a little!

Jeri

Why on earth does EVERYONE think pruning is the only thing to do or the solution to all rose care. I only prune in the spring and I never "hard" prune. When they start to bud out I cut back to where they are healthy. Whether that's at 3 feet high or less than a foot depends on the winter and the rose. I never could understand cutting off perfectly healthy cane that was already starting to leaf out and making the poor thing grow it all back again. And I've found that I get my first bloom earlier as a result too!

Our own Jeri Jennings was the lady who convinced me that I didn't need to be a spray freak. I thought I had to have spotless roses to have beautiful ones. She said once that it was a choice you had to make. You can spend your time fussing and fuming and always spraying or you can choose to enjoy them with the spots. The blooms are always beautiful anyway whether there are spots on the leaves or not. And it hit me that she was right! I grow roses not leaves and even with a few spots here and there (of course, sometimes they are leafless) the roses are always beautiful when they bloom anyway. It made my life so much simpler and I enjoy my roses so much more now that I'm not obsessing over the leaves. Thanks, Jeri!

If you want beautiful leaves grow hostas!

You're doing what I've long preached, taking your cues from the roses. If you want them to be easy and cooperative, you have to THINK like they do, which you obviously are. They will show you when and where they intend to flower next. If you let them do as they want as often as you can, they will oblige with as many flowers, as often and as early as they have the resources and genetic ability to. All you need do is watch out for problems brewing and attempt to circumvent them to the best of the resources you wish to spend on them.

The ARS and chemical companies are responsible for the "spotless, perfect" mindset. Much like Martha Stewart and her kind, the more inept you can be convinced you are, the more attractive the way they do things can be made to you, the more likely you are to throw money in their direction. Been there, done that, until I discovered their ways ate me out of house and home and could well prove dangerous to me and those around me. No thanks!

All I would add to your sentiments is, we do also grow foliage, it just doesn't have to be always perfect. Just enough to keep the plants healthy through appropriate food production so their natural immunities can ward off fungal and insect attacks as well as possible. The easiest ways to accomplish that is through selection, placement and culture appropriate to your area and types selected. If it isn't happy where you are, send it where it can be happy and plant another more cooperative type. As Jeri has long said, disease CAN be gotten rid of and a shovel is the best weapon!

I WISH hostas were possible here. There are a few which will tolerate my soil and climate, but we have the Brown Snail which can reduce a healthy, lush plant to poop in an evening. They LOVE hosta! Not at those prices. I only use iron phosphate types of bait, and even that very sparingly. The Chihuahua inside LOVES the stuff and I don't want to use anything which might give him difficulties. He's a pain in the rear, but I owe him protection. Kim

The worse advice I ever received in my rose life was to hand pick rose curculios to keep them from damaging the buds and blooms in the rose garden. A little research showed that I either had to resort to a systemic drench, contact insecticidal spray or hand pick the dang bugs ... or not grow roses.

I felt very uncomfortable about the use of poisons because my garden is located in the watershed area where everything eventually ends up in the river which is the source of our drinking water.

Hand picking rose curculios as a control is totally impractical because they work from first light to last light 24/7 during their active season. That's a no-win if you want to spend any part of your day doing something other than picking bugs.

A couple of years ago, near the beginning of curculio season, I decided I'd had enough of seeing every single bloom of the first spring flush destroyed by the curculios. (I was already spending too many of my gardening hours hand picking bugs !) Since the first flush was always a disaster due to insect damage, I decided to remove all of the buds on every rose in the garden and take away the source of food and the site where they laid their eggs. It took five hours to get every bud.

The next evening I spent 15 minutes going through the garden removing all of the new buds that had developed and saw two curculios. The following evening, I saw one. I know the curculios were breeding in my garden, but since I had broken their breeding cycle, they migrated out of the garden.

It's a lot easier to disbud roses than it is to hand pick bugs and far more effective.

I continued to disbud the roses every evening through the curculio season and the roses responded by pushing out more buds than usual, more foliage and more growth. Curculio season lasts for about 8 weeks. Around week 7, I stopped disbudding and the roses pushed out even more buds and the first flush that I allowed was magnificent ! There was more bloom in the garden than I would have had in a normal first flush.

A few curculios migrated back into the garden, but not enough to damage the whole garden.

I cannot grow climbers or once blooming roses because of the bugs, but I can have rose garden without damaged blooms.

Smiles,
Lyn

People, particularly rose society members, are notorious for destroying old Tea roses by exhibition pruning them. I've seen it too many times. Membership in a "rose society" seems to give some license to kill through pruning. My sister's HOA Landscape Committee Chairperson joined their local rose society last year. I noticed the roses I'd enjoyed for years began looking pretty awful. My sister told me this brain doner now figures she's an "expert" due to her membership and has instructed the gardeners to whack them all back to nothing every spring. It shows. Kim

I've been trying for about 2-3 years to get my mother to understand how to treat her teas (which I've been trying to encourage her to plant). She always INSISTS she has to prune them to the ground each year. I think I've halfway gotten her to understand the difference between tea and hybrid tea but her understanding (and acceptance) is VERY tenuous, at best. It's like people have been brainwashed about roses, or something. So hard to change...

I'm a member of two Rose Societies, and I agree with you completely.

No matter how often you explain the difference, almost no one absorbs it.

Say "Tea Rose."
99.9999999% people out of 100 -- even IN Rose Societies -- will not hear the difference in the terms.

Jeri
(Loving Tea Roses in Southern California)

Jeri

Then there's the friend (who was a Rose Show Judge) who had a family rose that she believed to be Rosa alba and she grew accustomed to winning fall shows with that rose under that name. At the ARS National Show (a fall show) in Nashville) the rose was disqualified because it was misnamed; she was livid. I had clerked that team of judges and I agreed with their ID of the rose as Safrano. They, at least, knew it wasn't R. alba and all the seasonal confusion that that ID would entail.

I must say, tho, that I watched a team of "eminent" Rose Show judges DQ as mis-named a lovely entry of R. banksia lutea.

They DQ'd it because they "knew" it could not be R. banksia lutea because it was blooming in September. They were clearly ignorant of the fact that Yellow Lady Banks repeats very well along our golden coast.

Jeri

Jeri

Impractical advice doesn't necessarily equal bad advice. As a hot-weather rosarian, I see both on this forum every summer when one part of the country is experiencing a heat wave and/or drought. If the rose isn't getting rain, isn't on irrigation and you aren't running a hose - the rose needs water, not fertilizer. Doubtful you've got blackspot if it's hot and dry, too, although my experience with that particular disease is minimal. No amount of chemical spray is going to cure heat and water stress but there's always somebody (with good intentions, I'm sure) that will suggest feeding and spraying because they don't know the signs of prolonged heat/drought exposure.

Jeri

Just a thought.

Susan

Sherry

Give someone their head (British): to allow someone the freedom to make their own decisions

Since I want my roses to be 'what they are' within the bounds of my small garden, they have to be given time and opportunity to become that. They're mostly still under three years old so THEY're still making the decisions. I mostly just deadhead. When they mature, I'll see what's appropriate and needful at that point.

Sherry

My Malmaison twins Sou(venir de l) and Vic(toria, Kronprincess) are producing their second autumn flush. The first flush about a month ago, I remember counting the buds. This morning as I was counting, I realized there were so many that I couldn't do it accurately.

They're doing this on their own roots. Did I mention that?

#1--What's so wrong with my soil that I need to add all those doodads? Seems like it's just fine or else all those ag companies and farmers would relocate.

2#--Tamping down made really angry plants. Nice fluffy soil in the planting hole, then concrete around it as they tried to spread their wings underground. Silly, silly advice.

And I've been telling my MIL and her mother as well every day for the last 3 summers when they visit that I do NOT have a single tea rose on our property, but they refuse to acknowledge their error. They believe that I am wrong & they are right. Grandma-in-law still refers to her own Don Juan & Dr Huey in the front lawn as Tea Roses.

No, Hybrid Teas will NOT do well if you throw a bunch of kitchen products all over them & plant them in the shade, and that's regardless of zone.

Anyway, for me OGRs and other zone 4 roses have been the best thing, but I don't do ANYTHING to my roses. I tried babying the hybrid teas and they still didn't do well...and I started to wonder if I was making it worse, by 'coddling' them :)

So, now I buy own root roses that are zone 2, 3 and 4 and they are very happy. I even have one area, out of the wind and on the southeast side of the house...where a few zone 5/6 roses have done extremely well.

The most helpful advice...and I read this in a book at some point...grow the correct rose, for your area. If you pick the right rose, you shouldn't have to do much at all. Just lots of aged manure, mixed in when you plant in, lots of water...and for me, lots of herbs/perennials that deer don't eat, to keep them from being munched on. Seems to work, so far! LOL

I believe that the question was a personal one - that is, what was the most impractical piece of rose advice I ever got?

If I had to have grafted roses, I would not have any roses. For me grafted roses are some of the ugliest most unnatural looking creatures in the gardening world.

It is unnecessary for me personally to cling to long held beliefs. I'm glad that I know that the universe does not revolve around the earth and that the world is not flat. I try to keep an open mind and to continually learn. My online research on root knot nematodes through the University of Florida - their information is extensive and available for download in pdf form, helped me deduce how to eliminate my nematode population. I don't have a link to it, I did that research years ago, but you or others can search "nematodes" on the site and find what I did. I realized that I couldn't successfully maintain my yard flooded (one method), but the solarization idea in combination with other information that nematodes could travel up to 3 feet in a season allowed me to extrapolate the barren area starvation method. It worked. I'm glad that I found that I didn't have to accept the pestilence, but that I could eradicate it. From observing many Florida landscapes, they wouldn't look any worse having large plant/weed and therefore root free mulched areas for a year while the nematodes starved to death or from maintaining a three foot mulched perimeter (driveways and sidewalks count as barren perimeter btw). Mine certainly looked better very much better than the semi barren weedy "lawn" area I previously had. And now of course, increasingly amazingly beautiful IMHO.

However, I agree with you that most Floridians should buy and plant roses grafted on Fort. if those individuals, gardeners or no, would not go to the extent of preparation that I have done to starve out the nematode population and then further to introduce fertility to very infertile sand which was what I started with - sandandsun, you know. It may be that most people want to just plant and go on about life. If so, those people should most certainly buy on Fort.

Chris

I have a friend who is the editor of a newspaper. She consulted me recently when her garden writer wrote an article about "hybrid T" roses. He's actually a very knowledgeable garden writer, and I always learn things when I read his column, but he doesn't know his roses. (I was able to get the terminology straightened out.)

Rosefolly

Chris, I hadn't read about the "barren area starvation method", but that's basically what I've done. My front garden is almost surrounded by pavement with weed-cloth covered graveled areas in the middle, and the beds are amended to the extreme (more than 50% soil replacement) and very fertile. The back garden has no pavement nearby but lots of gravel and similarly amended beds. I also don't like the look of fort-grafted roses. I only have one left - Mrs B R Cant. Like you said, if a gardener has only sand and doesn't want or can't go the total excavation/amend route, grafted makes sense. The problem is availability and then expense.

My other concern/doubt/question is the ground below my amended beds. My roses are old enough for their roots to have penetrated into that horrible, compacted, limey, cement-like native ground (Ocala has lots of limestone geology, making it excellent horse country but not so good for roses if you happen to have calcareous soil), and a few roses are suffering chlorosis and thin foliage. I may resort to lifting them, re amending the area and replanting. The organics don't seem to "flow down" sufficiently to alter the original ground. I don't know if nematodes are present in my area or if their habit is to come up from the bottom even if surrounded as you describe with starvation areas. It would be easier to assess the nematode situation if I didn't have the crappy native cement-like sand to complicate the issue. Growing roses well in Florida is certainly doable but definitely not easy. Determination, passion and a strong back (the gardener's or someone else's) are definitely required. But then, of course, people are plopping Knock Outs into the ground all over the place. I wonder what they will be looking like in a few years.

Thanks for commenting about this. I have kind of felt alone in what I have done. You explained it well.

Sherry

I also have gotten tired of the Tea-Hybrid Tea mixup. I've gotten to where I say, "Old Tea rose NOT a hybrid tea" SOMETIMES that works.

I do much the same thing when I'm talking to people. It's always "Tea roses which are not the same as Hybrid Tea roses" when I'm talking about them. I like the sound of your "Old Tea Roses" better though.

Then, one day as I went about the annual ritual of leaf stripping, and as I surveyed the jungle of roses and the monumental task before me, I finally came to my senses and told myself 'This is silly. Why am I doing this?' It dawned on me that this is all work and no fun. With a full time job taking up 70 hours a week, rose growing was starting to take it's toil. I had beautiful roses but hardly any time to enjoy them. Worse of all this was eating into time spent with the family.

My New Year's day resolution that year was a complete change in attitude - I became a minimalist. I now do the essential pruning, fertilise twice a year and water. Those that survived and did well earned their keeps, those that languised are shovel pruned and replaced by less needy, hardier perennials, such as hostas and heucheras, and fruitful vegetables. As for leaf stripping, I have done my fair share and will not advice anybody to undertake this less than practical task. Black spots are a fact of life in my garden - I have learnt to embrace them instead of waging an endless battle with them - a battle where there are losers and no winners.

I am now a far happier gardener, a lot more at peace and contended. I have fewer roses, but I actually get to enjoy and appreciate them more. Letting go, as it turned out, was the best thing I have done in recent years

Most recently the worst single piece of advice was the presentation to the local rose society where we were told to add lots of sand to the planting mix when planting roses. Given that the soil in my town averages about 80% sand, I'd say that was pretty bad advice. I know my garden soil is at least that much sand since I've done a soil particle analysis. What would adding more get me?? besides a planting hole that's now 90% sand instead of 80%.

'If a rose is a weak grower you have to prune it hard' is not just bad advice, but cruel too!

'You can't water a rose too much. Water every day in the summer.' Well actually yes you can water too much, and every day is too much - our summers rarely break 80 degrees after all. And not everyone is on 80% sand, there are areas that have more loamy soil that most definitely does not need daily watering for anything.

'You can control blackspot with horticultural oil and baking soda!' Nope, not here you can't. Maybe somewhere where there isn't much blackspot to start with, or different races that are more susceptible.

'You have to cover your roses by the end of October or they'll all freeze.' It's too warm still in most Octobers, the roses rot under the cover. Most people who aren't in the local society don't cover at all! and their roses all bloomed weeks before roses that had been covered, last spring. There's something wrong with this picture ...

'Old garden roses don't get diseases.' Well yes they do. Actually some of the newer hybrids are the best for disease resistance. You have to know the characteristics of the individual variety.

'Spray every week for blackspot.' Even the local exhibitors don't do that. Modern materials don't need to be sprayed that often, and most everyone quits spraying after the rose show in early summer.

'Use this chemical as a soil application every couple of weeks to feed, protect from diseases, and insects. And use this one as a weed preventer.' Um, you do know that we're all drinking groundwater here, right?

On Saturday, I removed all the leaves of my four potted roses. I just had to do it because they were heavily infested with mites,spiders and blakspots because I didn't spray them and the leaves now looked very dusty, and dry with yellowish to brownish colour. All my pots are sitting on the concrete ground.
I just couldn't stand the look of them. It's summer here in Australia. If I don't remove them, the mites will spread to another rose bush and I know that I won't have a healthy, lush green autumn display. My comtes de champagne is now sprouting out new and healthy looking leaves since I had removed all its old leaves two/three weeks ago.

I agree, it does take a long time to remove all the leaves off but I'm glad I did it because the garden looks tidy and clean again and I know that I have reduced the population of those spider mites.
Now that most of my roses are 'bare', I'm planning to start spraying and feeding them so that I could have a wonderful autumn display.

When the leaves are as far gone as those you describe above, you are right they are pretty non-functional, but if you are worried about spider mite infestation and have the facility to do so, just wash the undersides of the leaves with water every day for about 3 days to break the breeding cycle. Then wash the plants at least once a week. You don't have to use poisons/chemicals or anything other than water for spider mites, nor do you have to or remove every leaf.

Smiles,
Lyn

It's true, my roses are more prone to bs in the spring, but I don't have a mite problem during that time of year. By the time the heat hits, I don't have to worry about bs, but I do have to worry about defoliation due to mites. The practice of washing the roses is during the high temps of summer when the mites are most active.

Good luck with your roses.

Smiles,
Lyn

Recently, I read to rake up all the mulch and dispose of it after pruning and cleaning up the roses. Really?!? We use small bark mulch, and replacing it every year seems like unnecessary (and expensive) work.

What I'm thinking of doing instead is to rake the mulch aside, spread a thin layer of manure and organic rose fertilizer around the roses, scratch it in, then rake the mulch back over.

Not sure I could afford the water bill and seriously wonder what the blooms would look like if I was hosing my roses down 4-5 hours every day ...

And a few drops of Fairy dish washing soap in a sprayer ... I tried it on few rosebushes - and they looked like they had been treated with a flametrower - that is how badly just a few drops of dish water soap in a sprayer scorched the leaves - all to a crisp ... I even tried the organic horticultural soap - the result was almost as bad as the dish washing soap - scorched crispy leaves ... Then I learned about natural pyrethrum - not the synthetic stuff - and with minimal spraying at the right time - got rid of the aphid problem and the - socalled "harmless" distorted growth of new basals cowered in 4-500 aphids ...

Just drag the hose over there, turn it on at blast-volume, and wash them off. A minute or less per-plant.

Truthfully, now that we DON'T spray, we see very few aphids to begin with. Other critters in the garden eat them -- including a handy troup of little bushtits (I think they are) -- minute little grey birds. They swoop in at least once during the spring, eat every aphid in sight, and fly off to the next garden on their agenda.

But if I DO find a concentrated group of aphids, I wash them off with a garden hose. Takes more time to haul the hose across the yard than it does to wash off the aphids.

Jeri

You are right ! I just realized that I rarely see aphids in my garden. I knew I solved the spider mite problem, but I wash down my roses mid-afternoon simply because I have found them to be more heat tolerant in this garden. (Heat gets trapped between the house and the slope with the garden located between the two.) Reading your post made me realize that I have also solved the aphid problem I had the first few years.

Thanks.

Smiles,
Lyn

As for the soap, I don't know where you are because you don't list your zone but if your leaves crisped that badly from one spritzing of dish soap water then it was probably too hot or sunny at the time. Even in my zone 6 garden the leaves will burn if it's too hot or sunny. I never spray anything of any kind (except plain water) on my roses if it's over 80 degrees or if they're in very bright direct sunlight. I have used a drop of Dawn dish soap in a large sized spray bottle to spritz the buds and new growth tips of my roses for aphids and it has worked quite well in drying up and killing the aphids and never burned them. I have burned them up once though. I used some concoction that had cooking oil in it that was supposed to clear up powdery mildew. It cleared it up all right...and fried all the leaves too! The oil left a residue on the leaves that cooked them the minute the sun came out. You live and learn...

Even if just took 30 sec. per roseplant - with 700 roses hosing would be way too much work ... The advice about hosing may be for people who have a much lower number of roseplants ...

I have tried showering some roses that get Powdery mildew - because I have heard it should wash away some of the spores - I do that in the morning/day time so the leaves dries faster - but I am not sure it helps much.

I also have started calling them "Old Teas", it tends to help explain. Sadly most people think that all roses are hybrid tea roses and that all roses behave like hybrid teas. It's so limiting...

Tommy's fertilizer program--- unless you show roses, your plants don't need that much food. Yes water is more important.
I live in zone 5b. I grow ht's. The new ones I get I plant the bud union 6' down. I never have to cover these plants.

Blackspot If you start early in the season and keep up a good fungicide program, you won't have blackspot. When the new growth is coming on for the season start spraying. Once you get blackspot, it's hard to get rid of, and it weakens the plant to lose it's leaves.

remember with new plants, grow roots first, leaves second, flowers third!

*** COMPLETELY different.

The pedigree of today's modern Hybrid Tea Rose does include Tea Roses . . . And China Roses, and a mish-mash of Gallicas, Damasks, Albas, Foetidas, Giganteas, and every other thing, in a glorious hit-and-miss mish-mash. Tea Roses and China Roses brought the ability to repeat bloom from Asia to Europe.

They are different in flower form, plant habit, and just about everything else. And the reason they may have trouble in zones where winters are very cold is that they did not evolve to go dormant in winter (as European roses did). Instead, they evolved to slip into a sort of dormancy in hot, dry conditions.

So, they are ideal for us in the increasingly-arid far western U.S., but for places where hard-freezes are the norm, they may not make it.

Not that people in such places have never grown Tea Roses or China Roses. They just have to work really hard at it.

Go read "IN SEARCH OF LOST ROSES," a book which will give you an enjoyable look at the history of roses. Check out Mrs. Keays "OLD ROSES," too. And maybe "THE CHARM OF OLD ROSES" by Nancy Steen.

That'll start you out . . .

Jeri Jennings,
National Heritage Roses Group

This thread has been an excellent introduction to how much it doesn't have to be hard to grow roses, and how much it pays to listen to your soil and your roses and other growers in your zone for ideas. In answer to your question about exactly how the teas versus hybrid teas are different, I'll let the rose experts chime in. From a practical perspective, the teas when happy grow to big bushes with lots of twiggy growth at first, with a tendency toward looser flowers (fluffy multiple petal flowers, open semi-doubles, or singles) than the traditional spiral centers we think of when most people say roses (those are some but not all Hybrid teas). In zone 5, I can honestly say don't bother trying Old Garden teas - most of them have old fashioned names like Mrs. Dudley Cross, or Safrano, or Clementina Carbonari. I have about 8 teas that have been in my zone 5 Nebraska garden for at least 4 years, and they're decidedly unexciting, even with faithful winter protection and coddling. You could do it if you want an experiment, but why put your energies into something that won't pay off very well particularly if you're new or have limited space.

Now hybrid teas are variable in size, come in the same variety of double or semidouble or single flowers, but we CAN grow many of them quite happily in zone 5. A good place to start checking the differences in how these flowers look, as well as reference for any roses you've heard about, is helpmefind.com (hmf-an outstanding resource we should all be supporting). Be aware that they're conservative in what they rate roses at because they depend on input from all of us as growers, so don't be put off if it rates many of the hybrid teas at zones 7 (particularly if it's "default"), but rely on other people such as on this forum that grow roses in your zone. There are some roses that hmf rates at zone 7 that are tip hardy over zone 5 winters, some that die to the ground and regrow well IF a graft is buried at least 2-4 inches below the surface, and some that will not survive my zone 5 winters with any amount of coddling or special locations. You got a great start with Buck roses since Griffin Buck bred his roses to survive to at least -20, and with an exception or two any will be fine in zone 5. There are other HTs that are reliably hardy - for instance, Kordes is another breeder that tends to be reliably hardy in zone 5 - but mostly checking out any particular rose requires some research as well as trial and error.

Within the hybrid teas, you'll find roses that have the classic "spiral" and high-centered look, but that look can crop up in other types of roses that can grow well in zone 5, like floribundas, shrub roses, and some climbers. Other old fashioned roses that will grow better than Old Garden Teas in zone 5 include Hybrid perpetuals, Bourbons (in a sheltered spot), Species roses, Hybrid Musks, Polyanthas, and all the once bloomers (Albas, Centrifolias, Gallicas, etc). Hybrid teas (HTs) tend to have a stiffer upright growth habit than teas or some of the other types of roses, which leads some people to prefer other rose categories because of a relatively artificial look you can get with HTs, but this can vary a lot with the specific variety or how you prune it. Usually more of the very bright and saturated colors (some would say garish) show up in the HTs and floribundas, but that can vary too, particularly when you're talking hot pink.

As for specific recommendations for zone 5 reds or purples, you'll have more luck starting a new thread with that as a title, since your question would get lost under this thread.

Oh, and to continue Mindy's original question in this thread, the most impractical rose suggestion (at least for my garden) that hasn't come up yet in this thread is to always pot up new bands for a year before planting them in the ground. Don't get me wrong, it can be excellent and highly recommended for many of us and undoubtedly makes the roses stronger before they're planted. It's just that it's impractical for me because I simply cannot keep roses alive in pots more than a few weeks. If I potted up my bands all year, I'd have a 0% survival rate. At least in the garden, I get 80-90% of them surviving the summer (yes, a few have too weak a root system to get established), and somewhat better than that if I leave the spindly ones in in the band pots until they get some new growth on them. I do baby new plantings in the ground, particularly if they're bands, but they have a much better shot if Mother Nature has a hand in their care than if it's all up to me.

Cynthia

Generally, Teas arose from Gigantea and Odorata hybrids. Hybrid Teas arose from crossing the Teas and early Tea Hybrids with European Hybrid Perpetuals, which arose from the Old European Garden Roses (Bourbons, Damasks, etc.) Teas require thick, old wood to perform and live many generations. Hybrid Perpetuals generally require hard pruning to replenish themselves and produce the size, profusion and quality of bloom they were selected for. Often, Teas are less cold hardy than Hybrid Perpetuals and many Hybrid Teas. Teas tend to be more evergreen than either of the other two classes. Teas were valued for the softness of their coloring and high-centered bloom shape as well as their ability to flower nearly continuously. Hybrid Perpetuals had more bull nosed, rounded bloom shapes and many flowered well in spring with little to no repeat later in autumn. It wasn't until the latter half of the Nineteenth to early Twentieth Century that the Royal National Rose Society had an autumn show because the roses of the day didn't reliably repeat their bloom.

Teas tend to be more spreading, with weaker, longer peduncles causing the blooms to "nod" or hang downward. HPs tend to have stronger, shorter peduncles which hold the flowers more upright. Crosses between the Teas and HPs resulted in more upright plants with generally stronger peduncles, more upright flowers with higher, more pointed centers. The deeper, richer colors of the HPs were blended with the high-centered form of the Teas. The "Tea scent" generally gave way to much of the Damask and other scents of the HPs and Bourbons.

Teas and very early HTs are often difficult to root where the HPs and those which lean more toward that side of the family, are generally easier and faster to root. Teas can be devilishly slow to start as own root plants, where those which tend more toward the HP side generally root faster and produce sturdier, faster developing own root plants. Teas were more likely to be afflicted with mildew. The HP side more likely to be afflicted by rust and black spot. Combine the Foetida influence which was considerable at the beginning of the Twentieth Century, and the disease issues were exacerbated.

Often, HTs will lean toward the Tea side of the family in performance and expressed traits. You have late Teas which are classed as Teas, but are more likely early HTs, such as Lady Hillingdon. She looks and acts like a Tea, but is reportedly far more cold hardy than is usual for the class. Sometimes, a HT will lean more toward the HP side of the family, such as Frau Karl Druschki and Symphony (Weigand, 1935). They look more like HPs but are genetically, by breeding, HTs.

Teas are more like Mons. Tillier, G�n�ral Schablikine, Devoniensis, etc. Hybrid Teas are more Peace, Double Delight, Brandy, etc. Hybrid Tea flowers can be easily imagined by thinking of a dozen, long stemmed florist roses.

You have those who classify the plant by how it looks and performs. "If it quacks like a duck, it IS a duck!" You also have those who classify the rose genetically. If it is a cross of two Teas with no Old European Garden Rose contained in it, the plant is a Tea. Take a Tea and cross it with a Hybrid Perpetual, then no matter what it looks like or how it performs, it is a Hybrid Tea. Symphony is classed as a HP because it looks, grows and performs like one, but it is a cross of a Hybrid Tea by what is classed as an HP (but which is by breeding, a Hybrid Tea). When registering a rose, it is up to the person filling in the information as to what the rose should be registered as. From a gardener's perspective, it would be far more beneficial for the "quacks like a duck" classification to be used. If you're expecting a Queen Elizabeth plant and flower and you receive a Lady Hillingdon performing plant, you aren't going to be satisfied. See where much of the confusion comes from?

If you live in a shorter growing season, harder, longer winter season climate, HTs may do OK for you where Teas probably wouldn't. If you live along the coast here in SoCal or in the Gulf States, Teas may be more suited to your climate than many HTs. Generally, HTs are going to have longer lasting flowers for many climates. They are available in many more colors than Teas, as well as many more sizes, types, habits and scents. If you're looking for cut flowers which can last up to two weeks in a vase, some HTs are usually the way to go. If you're looking for more of the "Old South" look, Teas are it.

Generally, if you live in a colder climate where winter protection is an issue, avoid those which are advertised as "resents hard pruning" as they will be problems to cover and protect from frost and snow. There are many qualifiers and conditions and none of this is absolute, as is true of most of roses and gardening in general. I hope it helps give you a bit better idea of how Teas and HTs are related, how they can have similarities and what their differences can be. Kim

You might consider contacting the people who grow the specimen you found so attractive, ask them what varieties the ones you particularly liked are and if they do anything special to grow them there. Like the old Packard automobile advertisements of 70+ years ago advised, "Ask the man who owns one!" If they are near where you are and should be expected to experience the same conditions, their advice would hold far more value than what most of us could suggest. We can theorize, but he DOES it. Good luck! Kim

I have two gardens, one in zone 3 and one in zone 4 where I grow/grew most hybrid teas and grandifloras.

It is hard to find information on over-wintering roses up here as I have never found more than a few paragraphs dealing with it, which means few to none up her are writing about, or they simply say there are others than hybrid teas for the north gardens.

I have spent hours upon hours trying different prep methods for winter and found some that work very well but there seems to be always a new gremlin that crawls out of the wood-pile. What makes it worse is one never knows if it is a one year glitch or common.

This year I got tired of babying along a few roses and let them kick the bucket what used to be my large garden is less than half what it once was.
At the same time, while uncovering my roses this spring, I grabbed on and heard a pop and suddenly I was holding the entire rose about six inches out of the ground as the main stem below the graft had snapped leaving a few roots.
I said damn, literally jammed it back in the ground, add ed a little dirt and moved on.
It is now one of th e healthiest roses in the garden with beautiful blooms.

If you really want to grow HTs give it a try. Yes, some of them will probably die but some of them may thrive too! Even the location within your own yard will make a difference. Look for places that are warm spots and have some wind protection and plant a couple HTs and see what happens!

Last week I read in the paper that "The biggest mistake rose growers make is watering them in hot weather." What???

Cynthia