Henry- that's a lovely thought but we'll be happy to settle for Alaska. Sans Sarah Palin, please.

Tammy, I have ordered Laguna from Palatine and they appear to still have it. I wish there was another source for David Austin's on multiflora besides Hortico (I don't trust them based on their Dave's Garden Reviews). But I agree with you about the possible waste. Gives me goosebumps. I am hoping that things turn around soon.

Yes, we will have to monitor this situation. I was wondering why I wasn't seeing a lot of "sold out" like I normally do this time of year.

Here is the latest from Pickering. They appear to blame the Canadian bureaucracy rather than the American.

Dear American Rose Friend,
Thank you for placing an order for roses with Pickering Nurseries Ltd. for this past fall or coming spring.
Pickering Nurseries has shipped rose bushes to the USA since the early 1960�s helping to beautify thousands of gardens throughout the country and making many friends along the way. We are very grateful for and proud of the relationships we�ve formed.
This November as we prepared to begin shipping to the US we were denied inspection of the plants for export. According to the individual I spoke to at the Canadian Agriculture Department (CFIA) we would not be able to export roses this year. I challenged this notion, stating that we were in compliance with ALL the new regulations, directives and policies and was told that this was based on a "re-interpretation" of long existing rules. Effectively, under this new interpretation CFIA believes we should NEVER have been able to ship roses to the USA.
As such:
� If you had placed a fall order which we confirmed - we have CANCELLED it.

� If we had charged your credit card as your order was assembled and about to be shipped - we have fully REFUNDED it.

� If you have placed an order on our website for spring 2013 delivery we have permanently deleted the electronic copy AND burned any paper copy in order to protect your privacy.

I cannot offer any assurance that we will be able to ship to the USA next year either, though I have not been told as much. We had complied with all the rules as they were laid out for us leading up to this situation so I cannot place ANY faith in the CFIA going forward.

Maybe they should grow own-root roses to ship to the US, since their rootstock seems to be the problem.

"Maybe they should grow own-root roses to ship to the US"

Unfortunately, that would require a complete re-engineering of their facility and production protocol, which would be costly, time consuming, and (generally) result in a more expensive and potentially inferior product. Ain't gonna happen. You better cross your fingers and hope the bureaucrats can get their agenda sorted out, since Joel has complied with the regulations all along, and this is just an unfortunate re-interpretation of an old regulation. Useless, destructive bureaucracy in action. Joel, you have my sympathies.

CFIA - wow. If anyone knows of something we can all do, (doubtful since we are dealing with a govt entity) please let us know on the forum.
Good luck to them.

There is a simultaneous discussion of this issue on the RHA. It has been stated Pickering imports their root stocks from The Netherlands and has for some time. Supposedly, when imported, they meet the size restriction imposed by our USDA of not exceeding 10 mm, but are grown on until size appropriate for budding. The finished product is then shipped to the US.

There are four pages of restrictions and requirements for importing into the US. The third and fourth pages state the size limit for any material brought in from any country where A. chinensis and/or A. glabripennis are present.

"The plants for planting in this shipment, including all plant parts (e.g. root stock, scion, etc.) were solely grown in (the name of the exporting country) and A. chinensis and/or A. glabripennis are not known to occur in (name of exporting country).

Countries where A. chinensis and/or A. glabripennis populations are present: Afghanistan, China, Croatia, European Union, Indonesia, Japan, Republic of Korea, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Madagascar, Malaysia, Mayanmar, Philippines, Taiwan and Vietnam."

It appears this will prevent any Pickering (or anyone else's product) produced from any "parts" originating in any of the listed countries from entering the US, period.

Had the stocks (or bud wood) been imported into the US when still less than 10 mm diameter, then the bare roots produced here and successfully released from quarantine, perhaps the plants might have been salable here.

For anyone interested in the actual documentation, this is what I received from the USDA with my import permit this summer. Kim
{{gwi:347930}}

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Thanks for the tip Karolina. I hadn't placed an order with Palantine this season....I may have to now :)

Karolina,
I have gotten orders from Hortico both last year and this. They've been beautifully packaged, healthy roses and delivered on time. Shipping was very reasonable. They seem to have gotten their act together and I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again. Are the DG negative reviews from recent customers or several years ago? I think rose companies can change and do better.

I called Pickering after I got the first message and the customer service rep was visibly upset; she said she was being laid off because of this. I hope Pickering survives all of this.

I've never ordered from Palatine, but maybe I will now.

What a very sad situation for Pickering and a big loss to home gardeners. One of our best rose suppliers, and ironically known to produce some of the healthiest roses (their strong anti-rose mosaic virus program an important part of this) in the market in north America is effectively off limits.

I spent some hours online last night learning more than I wanted to know about the Asian long-horned beetle. According to expert opinions on the web from both the USDA and Ag. Canada the small size of rootstock of under 10mm (0.4 inches) would prevent the spread of this beetle. And since Pickering has been bringing in rootstock below that size it seems the bureaucrats at CFIA are throwing their weight around in this particular instance more than doing anything effective to protect consumers or halt the spread of this invasive pest.

There is a good deal of info available on the CFIA's website. Below is a page with lots of links for further reading. The CFIA provides a long list of affected genera, including the rose at this URL: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/plants/plant-protection/directives/forestry/d-11-01/host-genera/eng/1322628753967/1322628853096 (seems to be better and/or more easily found data than on USDA pages).

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: CFIA, Asian long-horned beetle page

Hortico continues to garner poor reviews on Mave's Parden. That includes for both 2011 and 2012. Do a search on Plant Scout there for Hortico. Unfortunately, gardenweb wouldn't let me post a direct link to that page (claiming it is spam, and warning of excommunication should I try again). Apparently being sent to Disneyland is still a option.;)

Melissa

I wonder why they are still getting poor reviews - my experiences have been good ones. Inconsistency, I guess.

I just got roses from Hortico. Green canes, lovely roots, well packed - no complaints from me and I have ordered from them for years with NO problems.

Based on the reviews, it seems like they send a lot of mislabeled plants and myself being a newbie, I wouldn't recognize a mislabeled plant until eventually it bloomed and I compared it to what it was supposed to be as I don't recognize plants/flowers immediately yet. Thus my concern would be that I wouldn't catch it in time to call their attention to it and get a replacement. Might have to try it though.

I really hope they figure it out as Pickering sells quite a few varieties that I can only find there. I can't even imagine how the employees feel about this, especially with the holidays near. Does anyone here with professional knowledge agree that there is a risk in what they are doing (growing European stock bigger and then selling it here)? I agree with Melissa that from what I am reading, if importing only the small sizes leaves no chance of of importing the pests, then what is the problem?

Federal departments obsessively follow the "letter of the law". That law states all the plant parts of the plants to be exported to the US must originate in the country exporting here, and no part of the plant to be sold within the US can originate in one of the listed countries. The scions are Canadian, the stocks, Dutch. The Netherlands is part of the EU, where the pests are known to exist. Whether the stocks initially are smaller than 10mm or not, they come from a restricted country. Hortico hasn't the issue because they evidently don't import their root stocks. If they did, they would probably get hit with the same restrictions. Kim

If that strict an interpretation of the rule is going to be applied to Pickering due to the rootstock originating in another country, then being strict on the scion would also nail Hortico. But perhaps that hasn't occurred to Ag. Canada. Yet. For example, Hortico has imported or purchased from another Canadian importer(s) mother plants that are used to graft onto rootstock (grown from seed by them presumably). Those mother plants did not originate in Canada unless they were bred there. And I will bet that many of the varieties Hortico carries are for roses bred in another country (including those on that list that have the pest). Some were likely even bred in the USA (which btw has outbreaks of the Asian long-horned beetle--so does the US also qualify as a country where the pest exists, if strict by the letter of the law reading is to be done?).

Somebody, somewhere needs a dash of common sense.

Melissa

That strict interpretation is what's used. Where the rose was bred is immaterial. You can't import the bud wood to bud on Canadian stocks to ship to the US. You can't import stocks to bud Canadian scions on to ship to the US. You CAN import bud wood into Canada, bud it, hold it for the quarantine period and have it come successfully out of quarantine, then bud from the Canadian budded plants on to Canadian stocks to ship to the US. Hortico can purchase either stocks or scions from other CANADIAN sources, produce plants from them and sell them to US customers. Both the literal bud and stock used originated in Canada. Deal with the USDA and State and County Ag. Depts. Literal is all they speak. Kim

Is it possible for Pickering to source their rootstocks from another Canadian source rather than from the Netherlands?

Hope Canada forgives us. No NHL Hockey, either. Going to be a rough winter for a lot of Canadians. :(

If they can find another Canadian source for the suitable stocks known to be RMV free, absolutely. It would be the RMV free issue, availability and cost that would possibly limit that, but even under the best of circumstances, you're looking at a minimum of a year, probably two, before they can re enter our market. Own root has also been suggested elsewhere, and that would likely take significantly longer. If they hadn't become the premier producer of clean stock, things could be much faster and easier for them as they could then follow the established J&P and Hortico model of just procuring whatever and dumping it on their customers. Kim

I am going to send Pickering an order and tell them to donate my order to a Canadian tax free organization of their choice.

That's a lovely gesture, Henry. Hopefully, enough people will follow your lead to make a difference for them. Kim

Considering the impact this is going to have on Pickering's business, I would be more inclined to give the $$ to them rather than some charity, cause they are gonna need it.

I am very concerned this will put Pickering out of business and I have ordered from them for years - their service and product are wonderful. I dont see why, instead of just shutting down shipments [which have gone out for years with no problems] Pickering could not be allowed a grace period of a number of years to redo their product - why they have to just cease shipping anything to the US at all. Some of these regulations are ridiculous. I breed and sell horses, currently working on a shipment of 8 going to Mexico and possibly some to France. Paperwork has to be done perfectly.....no excuses. But this is a known factor - I dont understand why after all these years they suddenly decide to just shut down shipment. I certainly hope that Pickering can figure out an alternate solution -

I am very, very disappointed in this turn of events! I was particularly hoping to get 2 Parades from Pickering, because they are for my pergola. I wanted grafts, not own-roots, because I really want the faster results one gets with grafts. Can anybody suggest a source for grafted Parades? (Horito doesn't carry). If not I guess I'll get them from Roses Unlimited - mind you, I love RU but its just that own-roots are a little slower to get going.

But all this said, my disappointment is nothing compared to how awful the poor folks at Pickering must be feeling! I feel terrible for the poor person who is being laid off! And this seems so unfair. In my experience, Pickering has great plants and a great catalog. Not only that, they have always impressed me with their integrity and responsiveness - they are great to do business with. I sure hope this thing doesnt cause them to fold!

I too am terribly disheartened by the potential impact that this will have on Pickering. If they can survive this blow, then within a few years they should be able to grow sufficient rootstock locally to be able to resume shipments to the U.S. That assumes, however, that import restrictions will not continue to become more onerous between now and then. It's interesting to note that this happened not due to a USDA inspection, but due to a reinterpretation of the USDA rules and regulations by the CFIA, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. I have come to respect Pickering a great deal over the past several years, and it's very sad that they have been hit so hard in this way.

I think Henry's point was that Pickering would keep the money, and donate the roses. A nice gesture.

Hard to know who's to blame here. But don't fault govmt for following the 'letter of the law'. They get sued otherwise. Fault often lies in poorly written laws and regs, either because of inadequate understanding of the problem or political pressure from the affected industry. Wonder how much pressure from competitors of Pickering might have to do with this re-interpretaion of regulations?

Hey rose people -
Does this sound fishy, like something a long time ago apparently also generated by the USDA? Pickering is so-o clean with a stellar reputation for labeling and a wonderful selection of varieties - in short an absolute gem for rosarians! They are wonderful people to deal with and very much something we should not loose here south of the border. Any sleuths out there - lets band together and get to the bottom of this!!!! You are welcome to e-mail me with questions and ideas and I will do my very best to help Pickering.
Suzy V.

No Suzy, not "fishy" at all. I don't know when the size limitation was imposed for imported material, nor how long the restriction has been in place that ALL plant parts must originate in the exporting country, but they are the same restrictions for all countries, all plants, across the board and not Pickering-specific. I fully agree with all the wonderful, positive things you've said about Pickering, but there is honestly nothing to "get to the bottom of". Our government has imposed restrictions and conditions upon importing plant material to prevent a potentially very damaging pest from being permitted entry. The Canadian government is holding to the restrictions. Pickering, unfortunately, is caught in the middle. Had someone in the company been on top of things, maybe this could have been discovered many months, perhaps even a year or more ago and steps taken to prevent the emergency at the last minute. The only aspect I can see which might need to be gotten "to the bottom of", is who at Pickering SHOULD have been aware, should have paid attention and brought it to the company's attention to potentially circumvent the problem. Somebody appears to have really dropped the ball as this isn't a last minute change. Kim

Plants have been circumventing the globe forever - are we so very clever that we can think we shall really be able to stop unwanted pests from following or establishing wherever these will choose? I will bet the creature that is the so-called roots of this is much already here. Let us not destroy Pickering for politics and let us keep a very valuable source of roses.
A dedicated rosarian.
Suzy V.

Plants, people and pests have circumvented the globe forever, yes, but not with the speed and efficiency with which they do today. The good old days when it took weeks to months to bring something from over seas have been replaced by a trip of a few hours. An insect flies into an airliner in Europe and exits in New York the same day.

Hopefully, some sort of "special dispensation" can be arranged in this case, but the laws and their interpretation must remain literal or they will mean nothing, nor protect nothing nor no one. And, yes, we are so "cleaver" as to prevent a number of unwanted pests entry. Many would have been prevented entry and spread IF "people" wouldn't circumvent the restrictions put in place to prevent it. There isn't a "natural" entry for the Asian Citrus Leaf Miner. What I've read is that was brought into the country by someone smuggling infested material across our border.

From the California Dept. of Food and Agriculture: "California agriculture experienced a 15 percent increase in the sales value of its products in 2011. The state's 81,500 farms and ranches received a record $43.5 billion for their output last year, up from the $38 billion reached during 2010. California remained the number one state in cash farm receipts with 11.6 percent of the US total. The state accounted for 15 percent of national receipts for crops and 7.4 percent of the US revenue for livestock and livestock products.

California's agricultural abundance includes more than 400 commodities. The state produces nearly half of US-grown fruits, nuts and vegetables. Across the nation, US consumers regularly purchase several crops produced solely in California."

I hate the thought of losing a Pickering (or any other rose source, for that matter), but compared to throwing up our hands and letting material entry without restrictions, probably bringing in damaging pests and diseases we MAY well prevent and damaging or destroying our ag. industry, the value of "ornamentals" pales in comparison. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: California ag. statistics

I wish I could send them some money for the order I know I will want later. Like a Pickering deposit account :) I have to set it aside mentally, anyway, so I wouldn't mind if they might have to refund it sometime in the far future.

If they are open in a year or two, I WILL spend that money there. I have no doubt.

I am completely amazed at the willingness of US Consumers to import roses grafted onto Multiflora Rootstock. With the amount of wide spread problems with Rose Rosette and the fact that R Multiflora is a known host for the virus - this utlimately cant be a good thing. Not to mention that R Multiflora is on the USDA noxious weed list for most states and on the DO NOT PROPAGATE list too.
Im surprized that it has taken them this long to start cracking down.

"I am completely amazed at the willingness of US Consumers to import roses grafted onto Multiflora Rootstock. With the amount of wide spread problems with Rose Rosette and the fact that R Multiflora is a known host for the virus - this utlimately cant be a good thing."

There is a world of difference between importing roses that employ R. multiflora as a root system, and importing and unleashing R. multiflora itself into the environment.

I seriously doubt the issue with Pickering is what stock they're using as there are, and historically have been American sources which produce on the same stock. From the facts as related, it appears the issue is their stocks are imported from a banned country. The USDA restrictions state "all plant parts" must originate in the exporting country. Had their stocks been produced IN Canada, I doubt there would be an issue. Kim

Kim is correct; that is the issue, not the choice of rootstock species.

I have ordered from Pickering for many years and have never had a problem with their rootstock nor with any rose rosette disease. Wouldnt hesitate to order from them again if they could ship to US. I hope they can correct this problem and begin shipping again - they have always sent me quality roses that grow well with no problems.

My first "Canadian imports" arrived around 1984. Rose by Walter LeMire carried some very interesting things which I lusted after, but couldn't ship to the US, presumably because they'd been caught shipping varieties under US patent without collecting nor paying royalties for them. V. Krause had some very interesting things, too and was the source of some of my earliest "blue roses", as they carried the esoteric things, such as the 1966 Silver Star. Their plants, prices and service were very good and they also produced on multiflora.

Pickering enjoyed a good reputation at that time, too, for their service, plant quality and accuracy in identifications. Many of the species, OGRs and rare things in the old Huntington Study Plot were brought in from Pickering because they appeared to know what they had and took pride in supplying the right things of good quality.

Hortico at that time, was very similar to how they have been reported to remain over the years. They offered very new European roses nearly as early as they appeared in Europe. Unfortunately, they were the ones who had the reputation then, as now, for not being able to send the right thing under the right name. Spring shipments frequently came moldy, blackened and squishy. Orders arrived incomplete and promises from one season to supply the rose or a replacement the following season, weren't kept, no matter how often they were reminded. Refunds didn't occur, again, no matter how many demands nor reminders were sent. After a while, you tire of having to remind and push a business to behave appropriately and do the right thing. Why should you HAVE to, particularly when there were so many others which DID the right thing and very seldom disappointed? Kim

Ahem, ash die-back disease has been decimating European trees for the last 20 years while we have been happily importing, not just plant material, but huge amounts of soil (with all its abundant microlife, both beneficial and malign) until, lo, ash dieback (chalara fraxinea) is here, in our woodlands,killing one of our main tree species, after probably originating in plant material from the Netherlands. So, as Denmark has already lost 90% of ash trees, we are expecting the same impact that Dutch Elm had on our environment. So yes, a dialogue concerning the free movement of biological material across the globe, needs to be initiated now.

Well, yes, we should consider such a dialog, Companula. Pessimistic (realistic?) soul that I am, though, I feel compelled to welcome you to life in the "global village" with its rapid transport, blurring of national identities/boundaries, singular focus on ready profits with no truly serious concern about environmental impact, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

Here in the U.S., we opine about the consequences of closing the barn door AFTER the cows have left. The cows, I fear, are long gone.

Honestly, I think the bigger import issue is the uninformed gardener. The ones that hide a few plants from the inspection stations (they have those here in CA) or that tuck some cuttings/fruit in their luggage and think nothing more of it.

Mom's place is on the edge of a quarantine zone for citrus. We have fed fruit traps in our trees regularly. My fear some one will bring fruit from a friends back yard and we will loose all of our trees from the insect they did not realize they had.

Both the uninformed as well as the "I don't care" gardeners. Encountering those who should know better, should care, but want what they want and all else be hanged, irritates the Hades out of me. Kim

I understand how annoying -- frustrating -- it is to be denied the opportunity to obtain roses you really want.

BUT a gentleman in Southern California's San Gabriel Valley wanted just as badly to grow exotic citrus varieties, which he could not legally import. He smuggled them in, and budded them onto a local orange tree.

Because he was THAT foolish and THAT selfish, our citrus industry is now endangered by the Asian Citrus Psyllid, and the Huanglongbing disease it spreads. Affected trees WILL DIE. No getting around it.

And, because that piece of foolishness has now affected our county, we are now quarantined.

So, I take the prohibition seriously, and I can only wish Pickering had been on top of the issue early, and adjusted approprately.

Jeri

Just the paperwork now required to comply with the newly imposed restrictions concerning this disease are a pain. All records concerning every tree used and produced for ANY reason/use MUST be maintained for a minimum of FIVE YEARS and remain available for State inspection. Every tree produced must be recorded, including its final disposition, including the name, address and phone number of the final purchaser (if available). This applies to the producer of the trees and not the retail source. Retail sources will have all documentation necessary to prove the stock they are selling is from licensed sources, produced from registered trees. The registration includes any SEED used and what its source is.

Trees registered and released for sale can only be held by the producing nursery for twenty four months. Any stock not sold within that period must be destroyed. The conditions and restrictions go on and are more detailed and oppressive than those encountered for importing other stock. All because that one person decided HIS desire to grow what he was denied was more important than anyone, or anything else. I hope they fined him into debtor's prison. Kim

"All because that one person decided HIS desire to grow what he was denied was more important than anyone, or anything else."

*** EXACTLY.

We're afflicted here (in the county) with Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter, too -- that threatens the wine industry. (HORRORS! NO WINE?)

I actually know how to inspect for THAT -- but the Asian Citrus Psyllid is a different kettle of fish, and one I actually worry about -- particularly when I look at the broad acres of citrus trees, along the Santa Clara River Valley, here.

I'd love to have five minutes with that jerk.

Jeri

To be fair to Pickering, they appear to have been in compliance with all rules for years, and this issue isn't because of a new rule but instead due to a reinterpretation of an existing rule. This reinterpretation may turn out to be incorrect and the original interpretation correct. We don't know how this is going to pan out. However, Pickering does not appear to have changed their procedures, and I don't know how realistic it is to expect them to have known that a large bureaucracy was going to make a radical about face.

As to this nasty citrus disease, Huanglongbing aka yellow dragon disease, there appears to be a glimmer of hope on the horizon in the form of the spinach plant. New research on citrus with spinach genes added is showing resistance. There also seems to be interest in using antibiotics, as this is a bacterial infection. The citrus industry is spending millions looking for treatments.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Spinach genes may stop deadly citrus disease

Rose Spring Dwarf (aphid spread) has been show to have the ability to infect barley and oats. It would appear that we also should be concerned about spreading rose spring dwarf infected roses to areas that are "clean" of (at least) that particular virus.

Other rose viruses may infect other food crops. One example is Blackberry chlorotic ringspot virus (BCRV) which is known to infect roses, blackberries, and raspberrys.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/Blackberry%20chlorotic%20ringspot%20virus%20(BCRV).htm

Even the "classic" rose viruses infect food plants.

Here is a link that might be useful: my rose spring dwarf information

All in all I think Pickering has handled the situation with a lot of grace and if and when they are allowed to sell to the USA again I'd be more than willing to order from them. I hope that happens sooner rather than later because we've already lost too many good nurseries as it is. I hope this snafu doesn't spell the end of another one.

Multiflora rootstock has nothing to do with the spread of RRD. Multiflora is the bridge supporting the spread of RRD simply because it is by far the most common wild rose in the RRD zone. If the pastures and vacant lots were full of hybrid tea roses, those would be the bridge varieties.