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Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a E of Athens (My Page) on
Thu, Jan 23, 14 at 2:19

Does anybody have any experience of this first generation HT growing in a med climate? In particular I would like to know how it's growth pattern and its suitability for training is and whether it is susceptible to PM. Can it also be grown as a self supporting large 'drooping' bush? Also will it tolerate some shade? Between this and its tea parent Niphetos which one would you recommend (though I'm not sure how easy Niphetos would be to source)?
Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Thu, Jan 23, 14 at 2:40


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Since nobody has answered yet, I'm expanding this question. I plan to order Mrs Stevens along with the following roses, in fact I was about to press the button but I came to my senses and thought I should check here first:

Ghislaine de Feligonde
Cornelia
Penelope
Mme Jules Gravereaux

Do you think of any reason why I should not get one of these roses? Are they all suited to my med climate? Are any of them PM magnets? Am I going broke?
Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Thu, Jan 23, 14 at 12:40


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Nik

Wish my climate were similar, but I'd hate to mislead you by referring to any of the above roses in the three climates where I've gardened--north central TX, Minnesota, Portland, OR. Maybe Jeri and Kim could be helpful? If I were you, I'd tag a post with their names before ordering...just to stay on budget. I'm pretty frugal but notorious for straying off budget, rosewise. :-)

Carol


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Nik, I somehow have the feeling that Ghislaine de Feligonde is not tremendously remontant, but I haven't grown it and I know others here have it who can tell you about it much more accurately.

Not all of the hybrid musks bloom like crazy. My Penelope was a little slow in that department, and also didn't give me that wow factor, but of course that's an individual thing. I like Cornelia much more, but then I'm a "pink rose" person. I wouldn't sneeze at a white rose that looks marvelous and blooms a lot, though.

Ingrid


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

This is speculation Nik;
my favorite nursery (zone 5 ) had Ghislaine last year, but is not carrying it this year. You probably already know the pictures are really wonderful, could GdF not have done too well in comparison to the other roses? in the photos the blossoms are gorgeous but in actuality they are small.
it is a beautiful little rose on a big bush.


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Hi all, thanks for the info. Still undecided..

Ingrid, I was thinking of treating Ghislaine as a remontant smaller and lighter rambler so to speak. If it can grow onto some lower but spreading bushes of Pistacia lentiscus (mastic tree) I have (and can't, legally, get rid of..) and gain some height on the chainlink fence I think it would do for me. However, I would expect some remontancy at least in the form of an adequate fall flush. If either is not what she's good in doing I will not consider it. Similarly with the Pemberton musks on this list. Also, what about Felicia?
Anybody has any opinion on Mme Jules? I am always weary of Teas being PM magnets so I will need some confirmation here.
Keep it coming folks please. Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Fri, Jan 24, 14 at 0:39


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Cl. Mrs. Herbert Stevens
Ghislaine de Feligonde
Cornelia
Penelope
Mme. Jules Gravereaux
I have all these roses in the garden except for the last, though mostly poorly grown. All are desirable beautiful roses, valuable as shrubs as well as for the blooms. My CMHS is a grafted plant in poor ground--I haven't succeeded in rooting it--that holds its own and has lovely flowers. I don't know how often it would rebloom if it were watered during dry spells and were in better ground. I think you might be able to grow it as a big stiff shrub, possibly with some support.
I'm not overly fond of 'Ghislaine de Feligonde', simply because I have it in the middle of mostly once-blooming old roses of European origin, and its glossy light green foliage and smooth canes stick out like a sore thumb. Good plant--mine is a shrub--can handle adversity, easy to root; as usual, I can't speak as to rebloom because I don't water during drought. It would assort well with the Pemberton Hybrid Musks you list, for example. I heard somewhere that it is somewhat susceptible to canker, and in fact I pruned off a cankered cane last year.
I adore ALL the Pemberton Hybrid Musks: excellent fine shrubs, good foliage, sweet fragrance. They tend to bloom spring and fall, and can be particularly lovely during the fall bloom. In my experience 'Penelope' is more shrubby, while 'Cornelia' has lax canes and if grown as a shrub is much wider than tall, or can be trained as a small climber. I've let my Hybrid Musks go, not pruning out old canes annually for renewal, and the sad result is that they're very run down now; and two wet winters in heavy soil haven't done them any good, either. So you need to keep after the pruning. In my climate they do best in part shade and in the cooler parts of the garden, and they don't like very heavy soil either. This is a big problem for me: so much of my garden is sun-blasted and windswept, with pottery clay as soil. Hybrid Musks don't like these conditions, so I have difficulty siting them. But they're glorious roses.
About mildew, I don't remember seeing it on 'Ghislaine', while the others I think get it in moderation in certain seasons, but not enough to compromise them. I don't spray, and accept that many of my roses are going to get some mildew in the summer. It's unsightly but doesn't do any particular harm. Actually 'Cornelia' may not get it.
Lest I not have made this clear, all these roses are, in my opinion, good to have in the garden. Almost certainly 'Mme. Jules Gravereaux' as well, but I can't speak from my own experience.
Melissa
P.S. Nik, I just saw your message. 'Felicia' is shrubby in my garden, not as distinctive a plant, in my opinion, as 'Cornelia', but if such a thing is possible with an even better scent. You might also consider 'Pax' and 'Francesca', both with possibilities as climbers, beautiful plants and blooms. They require the same conditions as the other Hybrid Musks.

This post was edited by melissa_thefarm on Fri, Jan 24, 14 at 0:48


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

  • Posted by titian1 Sydney, Australiae (My Page) on
    Fri, Jan 24, 14 at 1:19

Hi Nik,

I guess Sydney is somewhat similar in climate, except that we get very heavy dumps of rain from time to time.
I have Cornelia, Penelope and Felicia.
Cornelia did very well as a result of a leaking sewer pipe (went on for months as there was no smell, weirdly!). No mildew, no disease of any sort, and sweet racemes of little pinky/apricot flowers that are supposed to be highly fragrant, but of v little smell to me - even now the sewer line has been fixed!
Felicia is shrubby (unlike C which sends out long canes), has a delicious scent, but for me the blooms look raggedy within hours (minutes?) of opening, but the scent makes her worthwhile. And she flowers continuously from Spring to Autumn
Penelope sends out long canes, but they are much less flexible that Cornelia. I love the blooms. They are quite large and occur in heads the size of footballs (nearly), and start off a pale apricot fading to white. They look fragile and stunning to my eye. I'm not dead-heading every bunch this summer, as I've read that the orange hips look great against the autumn blooms.
I also have Buff Beauty. It sends out long canes too, and is on it's 3rd or 4th repeat since Spring. Not many blooms at a time but they are beautiful, although hang so low I have to pick them up to look at them. But it is only in its 3rd year, and as I have the disease you've classified as American, of moving roses, it has been re-homed once, and also severely pruned to get to the sewer line.
Trish.


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

I had never even seen canker in my garden until GdF appeared. What a mess. Because it grows in a typical multiflora way (loads of canes from the base), it occupies a much larger footprint than I would have liked and is also a horrible trial - endless cutting off and snipping whole canes which have become entirely girdled - great chunks of shrivelled dying rose foliage - I hate it and am simply allowing Schoener's nutkana and Tolstoi to bury it out of sight. Penelope has been another iffy rose - it lacks any of the symmetry of other hybrid musks, throwing one or two long stiff canes in unwanted directions and the blooms are ephemeral to say the least although, as a caveat, I am at fault here since it is uncomfortably wedged into a corner with a couple of low growing Lens roses (Matchball, Sibelius) in front - I suspect it would be much happier grown more as a standalone specimen.
I am also revising my opinion of hybrid musks in general - they truly are much happier in clay and resent my sandy, silty loam, getting mildewy as the season wears on....in the ones with dark new growth such as Moonlight, this is a serious deficiency. Buff Beauty is STILL basically one cane despite lavishing care and attention, careful pruning and training (I am letting the thalictrums have their head and simply grow over and through BB as it will never turn into a swan in my garden), I feel. Originally, I adored them as having that slightly ragamuffin air of untidy exuberance but they will not be going to the woods (also sandy, shelly soil)....although I will be going a little further back in the lineage and attempting Trier and Aglaia, along with more sweet briars such as Amy Robsart, Lord Penzance at al.
It might be because I am faced with a massive transplanting project but I am looking at ALL my plants with a more cynical and critical eye these days. Out of over 100 roses, there will be probably less than a couple of dozen I bother taking with me or reproducing from cuttings (but on the other hand, I fully intend to engage in the world of huge ramblers).


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Nik, I have Cornelia.
She definitely wants to be a climber in my garden.
She is planted against a derelict, neighbouring house. North facing.
She does get some PM here, but not a lot and I am hoping she will grow out of it.
She has only been planted 3 years.
Daisy

 photo 035-4.jpg

april 2013 110


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Thank you all. I can now say I'm more confused than ever... Maybe I shouldn't have asked? This rose selection business is so confusing especially if one doesn't have local references.

Taking the plunge 1, taking the plunge 2, taking the plunge 3, entering CC info, approved, done!!!

Just bought bareroot grafted top-price Cornelia, Mme Stevens and Mme Jules, accompanied with one Evelyn just to make P&P from the UK appear a tad cheaper....

Let's just hope there will be one rose amongst them I won't regret getting.
Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Fri, Jan 24, 14 at 8:54


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

You'll just become the local expert, Nik. Someone has to do it.
Melissa


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

  • Posted by zjw727 Coastal Oregon Zone (My Page) on
    Fri, Jan 24, 14 at 10:53

Daisy, your Cornelia is really lovely!

Also, Nik- if you want to expand upon your collection of Hybrid Musks, I would tell you to strongly consider growing Buff Beauty. Gorgeous rose, with a lovely tea-scent.


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Thanks zjw, I planted BB a couple of months ago.
Nik


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Ho Nik, 'fraid you will get impassioned highly partisan views here....as well as many carefully considered responses. It is difficult though, because our gardens are unique to each of us. Melissa, who grows many more roses than I do and knows heaps more about them, says her HMs are unhappy on clay....whereas I was equally convinced mine did not enjoy the sandy soil on my plot. Truth is, there are so many factors to consider - heat, humidity, soil types, companion plants, aspect, positioning, care regimes (mine are always a bit scrappy, to be honest which is why I gravitate towards species). I often suspect that the fault is more with the grower (definitely if it is myself) rather than the rose (and having seen such glorious Buff Beauties compared to my weedy one cane wonder, it is not surprising).
Is replant syndrome an issue for you? It still is in the UK so I tend to be more circumspect because if I grow a failed rose, I cannot easily plant another in the same spot....which means I either put up with the flaws or leave gaps for something else (but mainly, because I am a bit cheap, I often just avert my eyes when the blackspot hits). I sorta envy the moveable feast of rose-growing in the US.
In truth, if you really don't like something, is it such a disaster....or is it another chunk of education we are getting for the cost of a rose?

Oh yeah - Mrs Herbert Stevens - there used to be one against the side of the greenhouse at my local college. My lecturer, who had a lifetime of working in the rose industry, rated it as one of the very best climbing HTs that maintained the delicacy and refinement of teas while coping with the vagaries of english weather - prickly bugger though.


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Camps, learning through mistakes is OK as long as you don't get broke and get a bit of enjoyment from success in the process.

No idea if rose replant syndrome exists on my soil. Have never planted a rose in place of another one and I'n not sure I would recognize the issue if I saw it. However farmers in my country are advised of issues with some stone fruit trees and citrus. There are other cross-species issues as well, too numerous to keep in mind. Did you know that you shouldn't plant olive trees where cotton used to be grown before 5 years have passed? No? I didn't think you would! lol
Nik

PS For rose replant issues have you tried the cardboard box method?


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

  • Posted by titian1 Sydney, Australiae (My Page) on
    Fri, Jan 24, 14 at 15:40

Hi Nik,

Good luck with your purchases.

My soil is clay, with around 6" of loam on top. My roses seem to love it, I've never had them grow so big.

Daisyincrete, I think your photo is beautiful, but I think it's Cornelia the noisette, not the HM.

I would have to agree with Campanula, so far Penelope is an awkward looking plant, and BB is back to being a one-cane wonder since its altercation with the plumber.

Trish.


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

It is lovely Daisy....and forgive, I don't think it is Cornelia either ...although I don't think it is the noisette either. Its the buds, I think - just look a bit pale rather than the really quite deep coral colour? D'y think yours could possibly be Felicia? I have seen both of them go into a climb-y mode.

I am rubbish at identification so pinch of salt, obviously.


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Forgive me Nik for highjacking your thread, but just to reply to Trish and Campanula about my rose in the photo.
I ordered Felicia. A rose labelled Felicia was delivered, but when it first flowered, I could see that it was unlike all the Felicias I had grown in England.
The flowers were smaller. They were held in bigger trusses and the growth was slim and pliable.
My Felicias in England, had always been stiff, strong and upright.
When I asked Peter Beales about it, they thought that they had possibly, mistakenly sent Cornelia.
It did look like a lot of the photos of Cornelia on the internet, so I accepted that it was she.
Now I don't know. She is not at all like the Felicias I had known, so she is a mystery rose.
Daisy


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BTW I don't think that PB grows the noisette so it couldn't be it either.
I do think that it looks more like Cornelia (HM) than Felicia, only judging by pics of course. I don't think anyone can judge just by the colour shade in a graded colour rose. Too many factors can affect it. Maybe it is the cretan climate? Maybe the alkaline soil? Maybe it has grown a root into the raki barrel?
Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Sat, Jan 25, 14 at 1:18


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

"Maybe it has grown a root into the raki barrel?"


That made me giggle.
Nik, It amazes me, how many things raki is useful for.
I do use it to sterilise my secateurs when I can't find the surgical spirit!
Perhaps that's what affected my rose.
Daisy

This post was edited by daisyincrete on Sat, Jan 25, 14 at 7:25


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RE: Info about Mrs. Herbert Stevens climber

Daisy
I use it mostly to sterilize my inards from the bacteria life is giving me.
Nik


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