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Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Posted by sherryocala 9A Florida (My Page) on
Sat, Jan 1, 11 at 12:30

Every time I see pics of these roses I want them very badly. I think there might be one or two that grow here (probably Malcolm knows and grows them), but I can't remember. Interestingly, with all these nights in the 20's that we've been having in 2010 (last winter and this winter), I wonder if that's enough cold, or is it just our heat they can't stand? Do any of them repeat?

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

They certainly did not fare well in our ultra-mild coastal area.
We grew a number of Mosses, Damasks, and Gallicas here, at one time. For the first few years, they grew reasonably well, but never got as big as the same cultivars do, even in Memphis, TN.
And they bloomed, but no where near as heavily as if they'd had a winter.
But after the first, oh -- five years, maybe -- they began to "grow backward," and finally pretty much expired on their own.
And even at their best, they all suffered from mildew. Also in some cases, rust.
I'm not sorry I grew them, however. And I truly love those roses.

Jeri


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Sherry,

How about modern miniature mosses? I actually wouldn't know how they will do in Florida no-spray but my little Fuzzy Wuzzy Red certainly repeats here in a mild climate. This is not a separate class, but I did a search for Ralph Moore's mosses and came up with this.

Masha

Here is a link that might be useful: Ralph Moore's Mosses at HMF


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Don't know about moss roses, but I grew Leda here and it did very well until my husband removed it. I was very happy with it's three weeks of bloom and looked forward to it very much. I grow a Gallica called Hippolyte, but that part of my garden, sorry to day, is neglected and I'm not sure where it is until spring when I see one or two blooms and go 'I forgot I planted that!'...

I always say you don't know what you can do until you try.

A


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

I grew two bushes of Alfred de Dalmas and they grew reasonably well and flowered reasonably well, but never to the point that I was enchanted with them. They finally went to rose heaven because they were taking up valuable real estate where roses that would bloom more enthusiastically and actually have growth spurts could be planted. No disease for me at all, but they managed to show me that this was not their preferred habitat. AdD, Salet and a very few other mosses do repeat. Salet deigned to do absolutely nothing in my garden and went to a better home.

Sherry, I read your entire blog and it is wonderful! I think you've found your niche! Your writing is so lively and entertaining that this non-fan of most blogs had a great time. Keep it up; it's awesome!

Ingrid


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

You're probably going to have the best success with the modern mosses, though all of them will suffer from varying degrees of black spot and fair to moderate mildew. The dense prickles just seem to trap the spores where they germinate and mar the stems.

The most reliable repeating moss I have ever grown (other than moderns) was Deuil de Paul Fontaine. I know you'll see it repeated that it has lost vigor, but it never appeared to lack any in all the years I grew it. It was own root in the desert adobe, amended with copious horse manure and it flowered spring through winter here. Mildew waa an issue, but from what I've experienced and observed, it's to be expected if you don't spray.

The suggestion was correct, though, you'll never know unless you try. You just MIGHT hit on the right combination of conditions and cultivar to make it work. Lyn, who posts here, grew a Sweet Chariot tree rose in her former home. In the front, it was a mildewy mess. In her rear yard, it was spotless. So, choose the one you want to try then be prepared to move it around until it's happy. I don't know how many seasons an older type may hang on in your milder climate. In the one I grew Paul Fontaine in, there was enough difference between the seasons that he just kept on performing until the garden had to be removed for construction. Kim


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

There's an additional problem: Hot spring seasons. I can and do grow some moss roses. But they bloom out really fast pretty much every spring. We don't get cool weather in May and that's when their blooms happen- so they happen gang-busters and really fast. And that's sad.

I only realized how sad two years ago when we went to visit the roses up in Ohio at Wooster. They have beds of moss roses that are magnificent and heavy bloomers. What left me reeling was that the sprays of blooms had buds at all stages of opening- as well as blooms that were spent and blooms that were at their peak. It was obvious that they'd been in bloom for a while and would continue to be in bloom for several more weeks.
Some were roses I'd grown, but mine grew so much faster every darned spring.


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Yes, ma'am, Ann! That's one of the first things about once flowering roses which disappointed me. I HAD to grow Chianti because of that luscious color, but all buds opened at once and the were all cerise because of the heat, intense light and alkalinity here. It also got twice the traditional size and suffered from every disease imaginable because the CLIMATE was totally unsuitable for it.

IF you get any flowering, and IF they don't all explode and blow at once, and IF you get anywhere near the color/size/shape it's supposed to have, you won't get it very long before it's over. Even remontant roses when grown where they really aren't suited, may give you some enjoyment, but nothing approaching what they can and will do where they are HAPPY!


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Of course, I have no idea how it will do for you in Florida Sherry, but here in SoCa Salet has been pretty good for me. I grow it own roots and it started to decently repeat in its second year. I am curious to find out what will happen in its third year. I love Moss roses, too, and had to have a least one.

Masha, your idea to look into the modern miniature moss roses is a really good one. I am sure Mr. Moore has something in store ;-)! One problem I came across though is that many of his miniature moss roses creations are only one-bloomers, with eliminates the choice quite a bit for me.

Christina


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Ann, your post begs the question, do the roses sense the month of May, per se? Or do they sense the length of the day and the intensity of the light? Being farther south our days even at the winter solstice are not as short as yours and they get longer sooner in addition to getting warmer sooner. I was just wondering if our April would seem like your May to the rose. In April our temps are reasonable, certainly never higher than the 80s and more likely low 80's although that might still be too hot for these roses.

Kim, very interesting about the two Sweet Chariots. I have one in the front and one in the back, too. We/I really don't see much powdery mildew even in last year's very cool spring. All bets are off on BS though, right? (BTW, SC doesn't do bad in the BS department even no-spray. In fact, a lot better than the other miniatures I have. SC and Lauren do pretty well, but SC does better.) Was wondering about growing them in a pot, thereby exposing them to more cold in winter. Of course, that means more heat in summer, but I was thinking of placing it in a cooler spot with some shade.

Masha, thanks for the link. I've seen those Cresteds before and really like them and just happened to see Fuzzy Wuzzy recently, too. (was it on your blog?) Smaller is always better for my garden, so probably that would be the place to start if I decide to experiment.

Emmiegray, you're right. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. It's good to hear that you had success with some that you weren't supposed to.

Ingrid, perhaps those modern mosses would be worth experimenting with in your garden, but I certainly don't want to muddy your waters. I think I remember your inquiring about Salet recently. (Gotta start taking my gingko biloba again!) Thanks for liking my blog. Re "Your writing is so lively and entertaining that this non-fan of most blogs had a great time", that's a really neat perspective - having a good time. Yes, that's a supreme compliment, my friend. Thank you!!!

Sherry


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Sherry.....

I know of one moss that did very well in my Socal garden and now is my favorite rose in my Nocal garden. It's one of Mr. Moore's creations. I have triple digit temps for weeks at a time and this rose just keeps on blooming. The blooms really don't fry compared to the other roses in the garden. Of course, Kim was too polite to suggest it because Mr. Moore named it after him to honor the man he called a "true Rose Man."

This is one rose that looks a lot better planted in the ground than it ever did in a container.

Smiles,
Lyn

PS I have a couple of "poor" shots of the plant on HMF, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kim Rupert


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

If you are looking for a full-sized remontant Moss suitable for a Winterless climate, I recommend Moore's 'Lady Moss', which is a very reliable rebloomer, tolerant of heat and relatively Mildew free. In a humid climate, you can expect to have to protect it from Blackspot, however. This has very OGR style blooms in the softest blush pink-fading-to-white on a five foot tall shrub. It is similar to, but far more generous of bloom and more vigorous than the more frequently recommended Moss 'Alfred de Dalmas'.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lady Moss on HMF


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

She's beautiful, Paul, but I don't spray, and she may be too big (but HMF says 25"??) It's good to know their are heat tolerant mosses - or maybe just one. :))

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Mildew-Resistant, Paul?
What about a COOL climate?

I never really thought about it, but -- Perhaps?

Jeri


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Jeri,
Not sure what to tell you about that. All I can say is that Ralph showed me the plant way back when it was still 18-70-9 and commented on how Mildew resistant it had been in all the years he had grown it. Its only real disease issue here is Blackspot, which it has only mediocre resistance to, in my climate anyway.

Sherry,
If you don't spray to prevent disease, then in all honesty there isn't a single remontant Moss I can suggest; they all have either a serious problem with Mildew, or Blackspot, and sometimes both. One that might do OK without spraying is 'Rose Gilardi', which has been remarkably disease free in this climate. It is also a much smaller plant, not exceeding 18" tall.


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Christina, none of the Moore mini mosses are once flowering. He didn't release any which didn't repeat.

Sherryocala, 80 degree temps are not hot enough to hurt moss roses. My old Newhall garden frequently had temps into the low hundreds, sometimes for several weeks each summer. The only down side to them in those times were the spring flowering ones popped all flowers at once and then grew unchecked the rest of the season.

Thanks, Lyn, yes "my rose" loves heat, performing best when it's warm. I don't know how it would do against black spot. Lady moss was usually five feet under plastic in Sequoia's greenhouses and should be easily kept at around four feet in the usual garden situation. If you prune more lightly, expect it to be larger. Your photograph of it is exquisite, Paul! Thanks!

The Moore moss roses aren't wimpy things, intolerant of heat. You have to know that Visalia, where they were bred and selected, could grow Daphne, Lilac, Crepe Myrtle, Redwoods, Citrus, most apple varieties and just about any berry you can think of. Hard frosts occurred and the greenhouses in summer could easily hit 120 F with a hundred percent humidity. If the plant couldn't withstand those conditions, it didn't get released. Everything they released will root and perform well own root (with perhaps the exception of Dahlia Rose which is always better budded).

The only Moore moss I ever had any real "difficulty" with, and I've grown them all, was Kara. It's the smallest of the lot and not a very strong grower, but then it's really a micro mini. All the others were sturdy plants, flowering from spring through fall in the SoCal mid desert. That even pertains to his older moss floribundas, Rougemoss and Goldmoss. The only one to really get huge is Fakir's Delight, a Bracteata-Moss hybrid I had the pleasure of naming for a Fakir's bed of nails. The prickles are so densely packed and are hooked downward, you can grab an inch thick cane and move it around without being stuck or scratched. It's a beautiful rose with a lovely peach scent, but it is also a HUGE grower. Kim


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Paul, thank you for your encyclopedic rose mind. I'll keep Rose Gilardi in mind. How nice that she's petite.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Sherry, We've tried a good number of the repeating mosses, including the older ones (Salet was by far the best) and several of Moore's mossed minis. I have not tried 'Lady Moss'. But of the ones we've grown, old or modern, they were disease magnets, and we were successful ONLY by spraying at least once a week, often every 5th day in rainy weather. So of all the mosses I've tried, yes, I'd say growing them in Florida without spraying is truly a pipe dream.


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?2

I should add that, with spray, 'Dresden Doll' was a beautiful and highly productive mini moss for us. Lemon Moss was also nice.


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

End of conversation for me, but thanks, Malcolm, for the cold, hard truth. However, there are rose growers here who spray, so maybe they'll have at it and grow one or more of these beauties.

Kim, I'm guessing you can have 100% humidity without fungal spores and not have BS. Alas, the fungus is amongus here.

Sherry


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Hi Sherry, if the temperatures are too cold or too hot for the black spot spores to germinate, yes, you can have humidity and no disease. But, those situations are going to be pretty rare because the temps are going to rise or fall some time.

I never had to worry about the major diseases because it was arid and hot enough in the old garden for them to be fleeting problems. Now I'm on the coastal range, closer to the ocean, they're real problems, even for this hotter, more arid mountain side. It's severe enough a problem, I've had to rethink my breeding goals and begin selectively eliminating roses upon which I've relied heavily for quite a few years. Fun stuff!


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Sherry,
to compare our gardens sunlight, let both gardens get twelve hours of sunlight at the spring equinox- because that's what the equinox is. That's usually around March 21 plus or minus a day.
If roses are daylight dependent, that is the equalizer. Then, in my garden, there are about 40 days until the once bloomers start (and five days or so later finish).

To compare temperatures take a look at a graph from a weather station near me. Weather underground is great for this sort of comparison- then just look up your weather for your town, pick the weather station closest to you, go to almanac and instead of today's info, ask it for yearly and designate 2010 (or any past year it has) and you can find out how your temps compare with any of the rest of us.

Here is a link that might be useful: My garden temps for 2010


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Paul, that Lady Moss is soo... beautiful and it seems to be perfect for my climate. Looks like with your help I found a second Moss rose for me. Thanks!

Kim, maybe I shouldn't have written many of Mr. Moore's Moss roses are not repeat flowering, but it is said to be the case of the two I was really interested in.
Crested Jewel (HMF listed it as once-blooming spring or summer) and Crested Sweetheart (again HMF listed it as once-blooming spring or summer) and Celeste, a member of this forum, wrote that it is just flowering once in her garden, if I remember correctly.
Do you have any different info about these two varieties? Because if there is a chance that they would repeat I definitively would try at least Crested Sweetheart.

Christina


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Hi Christina, those two are Crested, and not really an expression of the "mossing factor" as he referred to it. No, neither of those crested hybrids repeat. For breeding, Crested Jewel is the better. For outrageous sepals, Sweetheart is THE one.

Sequoia released some repeat flowering seedlings from them, but they aren't as crested. Chelsea and Elegant Design are actually bred from Crested Jewel. For anyone interested in trying their hand at breeding crested sepals, Mr. Moore created a few really interesting ones using Chelsea in combination with things like Pinocchio. Unfortunately, the crested line isn't terribly fertile, so expect many failed attempts, elongated canes and more than its fair share of black spot.

If you want to try one of the prickle type mosses, take a look at Paul Barden's Unconditional Love. Even HE states it is the most disease free miniature he's ever grown. That says a mouthful coming from PAUL! Rogue Valley has it. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Unconditional Love on HMF


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

"Mel Hulse" a red Moss, that roguevalleyroses.com sells, that repeats as well as my neighbors H.T.s, and when deadheaded in autumn blooms late into winter, along with my Tea roses. The mossing is brown and fragrant of pine needles. It has large blooms and glossy foliage that has a cuticle that protects the foliage against disease. I have an organic rose garden and have never had to spray it with Cornell, even. I live where conditions favor p.m. greatly, and blackspot moderately. It's a lovely small plant too I have it at the front of a border..
Its a rose I bought for sentimental reasons, and it turned out to be one of my favorite red roses..
Luxrosa.


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Good call, luxrosa! Both are Paul Barden hybrids and Mel Hulse IS a very nicely clean, beautiful plant (and flower). It's very befitting such a great gentleman and cherished friend. I apologize for not thinking of it. I don't currently grow it so it wasn't in the front of my thoughts.

Now, the primary issue is whether such double flowers will withstand the rain/humidity of Florida. As far as the plants go, they would honestly be your best possible choices. Definitely superior to anything which came before them. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Mel Hulse on HMF


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Very pretty rose. Congratulations, Paul.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

I think "Mel Hulse" may open well because of the shortness of petals,compared to the wide width of bloom. In the last month we've had unusual amounts of rain, this December, through January, and "Mel Hulse" is one of only 3 roses in our courtyard that continue to open normally, despite abundant rain and fog. The other two are "Nastarana" and "Duchess de Brabant"

Lux.


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Treasure Trail THRIVES HERE!!!I have one in a large pot on Fortuniana, also a smaller one in a pot own root. I will post a picture of from this evening... I lost my phones usb cord, so sorry for the webcam pic. One of my Favorite roses! Just had to walk 10 feet outside to drag it inside.

Mel Hulse,I tried twice before it lived. Never has amounted to much here.

Lady Moss and Condoleezza do alright here not worth writing home about.Better grafted. Fa's Spotted moss also grows in my yard, not doing the best. But, with the cold December it is filling out.Some black spot on it.Not grafted.

Fakir's Delight is an octopus here. VERY thorny like many mosses, close to 10 feet spread I am guessing.

Almost ALL of the old moss roses have tried have not lived here grafted or not.

Warm and Fuzzy grows here Nicely. Clean.

I DO NOT SPRAY! I will say that almost all of my Ralph Moore moss minis have to be replaced like clockwork and really are not worth growing here own root.Grafted ones are better, but not even close to happy in most cases, a few exceptions. I do it for the pollen. I would not encourage most mini mosses in Florida and only a good handful of moderns. I have tried about 40 - 50 types total I am guessing. Kim, I think I will have to try Unconditional Love
anyone mention it on RHA?
Regards,
Andrew Grover
St Pete Fl


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RE: growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/lookin4you2xist/Picture10.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/lookin4you2xist/Picture11.jpg

I must have had the img code wrong. Sorry!


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

Thanks, Andrew, for going to all that trouble. Hope you find your USB cable by the time the blooms open.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...


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RE: Is growing Moss roses in Florida a pipe dream?

No problem at all Sherry. I'll get outside today while it is light and see what other mosses I have in bloom. Might be a couple. I am excited to see your blog!


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