Hi Debbie, thanks. We've had similar discussions on the Rose Hybridizers Association. I want someone to attempt budding larger roses to minis in an attempt to dwarf them. I've thrown out the idea, but someone else is going to have to run with it. I have way too many balls in the air right now and can't manage juggling another! Kim

As I understand it a too vigorous scion will over grow a too dwarf rootstock. Perhaps a patio rose rootstock might be a better combination?

Cath

Yah! fascinating idea Catspa. I think there had been some development going on with stocks - I remember reading that the Harkness family had developed a specific rootstock but wasn't sure what they actually selected it for. Suspect it was more for hardiness than size though. I do rather feel this could be possible to some extent but I think Cath is right in that there would still need to be some equilibrium between stock and scion so I would expect only minor changes in vigour and size. I guess it depends on how much of a market there is to justify the effort involved....

Like campanula I'm skeptical, but what a great idea. I often feel I'm in a very small minority in that I like small roses. I've done the miniature route before, but with fragrance as my priority, very little choice there.

The forum also is weighted to the warm region roses that build up into very large plants which are supposed to be pruned only lightly if at all.

The idea of getting a big smelly Hybrid Perpetual in a dwarf size is really exciting. But could it happen?

That makes me think. Would roses respond to Bonsai treatment?

Well, the combination of practical problems to be overcome and the admittedly tiny contingent whining about pruning-adverse roses being too large probably means Mrs. B.R. Cant will be towering over my head and a management menace for some time to come. Thanks for the input, everyone!

I was thinking as I planted Purple Buttons yesterday that fortuitous dwarf-version seedlings do happen. That's my great hope for the Buff Beauty seedling I salvaged last year. So far (but way too soon to know!), it seems smaller in all its parts than its parent but looks very much like it. Maybe a "mini-me" of Mrs. B.R. Cant will show up one day.

~Debbie

I've tried it, but never got a graft to take. I came to believe that there is a natural restriction there -- that the rootstock has to have enough sap flowing for the big plant in order for the graft to take, or it won't happen.

Failure in budding to one mini variety may be due to incompatibility with that specific variety, or any number of other problems. Perhaps trying something like Red Cascade or other "climbing" type mini might be suitable. Or, if you can get your rose to set seed, try raising self set seed from it in hopes that something might reshuffle and generate a smaller version. Another alternative would be to select the best minis in your climate and begin breeding the larger OGR types you like with the mini. Ralph Moore did similarly years ago, introducing several mini X OGR roses. His Moore's Pink Perpetual and Moore's Classic Perpetual are from mini X Paul Neyron breeding, as is Sequoia Jewel. Neyron performed well for him in Visalia, so he used it.

He also introduced several mini X Tea hybrids. Sharon's Delight is half Safrano as is New Adventure. It's Showtime is mini X Bon Silene. Grandma's Pink is mini X Marchionesse of Londonderry. Lucy was half Papa Gontier.

It's quite possible following this line of breeding may result in smaller, OGR type plants which might fill your desires. Luck and selection will determine that. Kim

Plant 'em in Florida sand, and they will quickly become dwarves.

I have continued searching for the edition of the ARS magazine which contains the article on mini rose bonsai, but still haven't found it. I did, however, run across this site from a mini rose bonsai group which I thought might be of interest. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: The Miniature Rose Bonsai Lover's Club

Almost totally OT, at the turn of the previous century there was a lot of talk of dwarf roses. But that was inthe day when almost all roses were grafted and one expert had gone so far as to state whether roses did better grafted onto "Standards" or onto "Dwarfs" , the dwarf referring to the height of the rootstock onto which the scions were grafted.

Thank you, Kim - as ever you are on the rose case.....but, urk, bonsai! I cannot get my head around why this concept is appealing to so many (men) - I have a bunch of friends (males) who are very keen on this hobby but it definitely does not float my boat in any way.
At this point, no doubt a bonsai loving woman is going to jump on my head.....but I swear, this is one of those somewhat gendered interests (although probably less so in Japan).
It is not so much the look of the plants as the idea of them, in those tiny little bowls - sorta like a plant foot-binding or head wrapping.
On a more serious note, it is that disjunction between 'bending nature to our will' - which we do all the time, as opposed to allowing the 'natural' to predominate - obviously, there is nothing natural about most of our gardens (or they would be weed fields with a couple of natives) but nonetheless, we all draw a line (in our heads) of what we agree to be acceptable practice....and what we really would prefer to see vanish, along with trepanning, leeching and burying toads in midnight cemeteries. As an inveterate meddler though, I detect a whiff of hypocrisy in my own vicinity.

Certainly there are rootstocks that go in the other direction, of giving a scion extreme vigor (e.g., 'Fortuniana'), so it's worth looking for a dwarfing stock. But in other plant genera, it is important to note that the vigor of the stock is often unrelated to the vigor it gives to its scion. So while there would be value in trying various minis, the actual dwarfing may come from a non-dwarf stock in its own right.

What you need is a stock that sends less cytokinin (and perhaps less gibberellin) upward to its scion. That may be due to lower production of each in the root system, OR it could be a slight incompatibility at the bud union, restricting the flow upward.

If there were less gibberellin, would the blossoms be smaller?

Cath

Suzy,
I think it's just prejudice (speaking as a person who likes the idea of topiary, which sends shivers up many gardeners' spines). I talked once with a Vietnamese (guy) who cultivated bonsai, and it was quite pleasant how he spoke of it as a little daily ritual of maintenance of the plants. Bonsai would never work for me, as my gardening is irregular, great bursts of activity alternating with neglect: I'd kill the plants for sure. But I can see its charm, for the practice far more than for the results.
Food gardening strikes me as the height of horticultural artifice, actually, and none the worse for that. We're just so used to it that we don't think of it that way.
Melissa

Just found this old thread and this is so interesting! Fascinating info @roseseek !

I would think there could be growing interest in dwarf or semi-dwarf grafting of well-loved rose varieties nowadays, just like there is for dwarf fruit trees. It could make many large varieties accessible for people with limited space, small urban gardens or balconies.

For example, I was just reading about The Lark Ascending in another old thread, and thinking, that is an amazing looking rose, but the commenters in that thread said it resents being pruned short and just wants to be a free-growing 10 foot thorny beast, especially in warmer zones. So sadly I have to forget about it.

But if it came grafted to a rootstock that would make it max out at 4-5 feet I would get it in a heartbeat.

Have there been any new developments in this field?

I have no solutions, just a comment. Mother Nature seems to be the only thing which can take a once blooming climber - 'Felicite et Perpetue', and sport it into a very repeat blooming small rose with identical blooms - 'Little White Pet'. Even in my garden, where almost every rose I plant gets 2-3 times larger (or more) than it is "supposed to", LWP stays 3-4 ft high, and never stops blooming, and NEVERS gets any diseases.

Seriously, though - the "problem" discussed above reminds me of the normal human trait to always want that unobtainable unicorn - whether it is roses with true blue blooms, or roses which grow in ALL climates excellently, or small versions of large roses. Of course, these may eventually show up in commerce, but since they have not to date, it may take a while. Meanwhile, there are so many zillions of roses, and this forum is such a great way to get LOCAL advice from people who garden in specific places, that I would start a search here, but relax my criteria a bit.

Jackie

@seasiderooftop no. I've not encountered anything about anyone seeking a dwarfing rose root stock. Today's goals trend more to finding solutions to Rose Rosette Disease and leaf spotting diseases.