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| Feeling totally furious, I am energised into further consideration regarding removing my roses from my increasingly problematical allotment. Despite having enthused many times about my wonderful moyesii, I had become resigned to leaving mine since it is an enormous gnarly beast, 12feet high and wide......but on the other hand, I am selfishly not inclined to leave it at the mercy of allotment philistines and council bulldozers (you might call them backhoes or summat). 4,5,6 year old shrubs - no problem........but what about these venerable giants? As you all regard rose relocation as something of a national sport, do tell/encourage/delude this cheap and impoverished gardener that it is perfectly feasible to lift and replant a 10-12 year old rose......and how best to go about it. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Wed, Jan 8, 14 at 17:35
| The oldest roses we ever relocated were planted between the 1920s and early1960s. They turned out to be the HTs Duet and Sutter's Gold, the bush form of Cecile Bruner, and Margo Koster. We moved them around the year 1998, so that would make them 40-80 years old. They had been languishing in full shade next to our driveway, the other landscaping having grown up and taken all of their sun. As I recall we also moved another HT from the same area, but it didn't make it. So, 4 out of 5 did make it. When we moved them none of these roses were very large, basically because they had been barely clinging to life in the DARK. Duet and Margo Koster were the only ones which had ever bloomed while we lived here (if you can call 1-2 flowers blooming) - we had to find out who the others were after moving them to large pots on a sunny patio and waiting for them to recuperate (which they did with amazing speed). We just cut them back (the ones which were not already smaller) to about 2 feet tall, and dug as large of a root ball as we could - maybe 2 feet in diameter and 2 feet deep, where possible. Then we immediately planted them in large pots in the sun (not knowing that we were supposed to do that gradually). Of course, they need a lot of water until they can re-grow feeder roots. So, I would say that you should definitely try and move the ones you love. The main cause of failure I have seen in other's gardens is leaving the bush too large for the reduced amount of roots to support. The rule of thumb to cut back the top growth to the same size as the root ball seems to work, although of course with a large rose that might mean 90% of the bush. However, if the rose survives it will all grow back! Of course, my ancient ones grew to 4-5 times larger than they had been in the DARK in the first 12 months. Good luck, and please let us know how you do - Jackie |
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| I have moved several extremely large roses of questionable age at the local botanical garden and at my mother's house. I recommend using a pitchfork rather than a shovel to loosen up the root ball. You are less likely to cut large roots that the rose needs to survive. I have had good luck removing all of the old wood and leaving some of the middle-aged canes, cut short by two-thirds if not more. The very young growth just seems to wilt so it is probably best to lob it off. So far, I haven't lost any of the few roses that I've had to relocate. I should probably knock on wood now. |
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| My Pinocchio was planted here by my Mom in 1954 so it's 60 years old now. It has been moved 5 times that I know of, Mom may have moved it too before that, and is still going strong. No, it isn't a massive giant but still, 5 times is a lot. You will undoubtedly have to cut the moyesii back, and it will take time for it to rebuild itself to its present stature, but it should survive with no problem. Being a species rose it is probably tough as nails and won't even blink. You can do this, Camp! |
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a E of Athens (My Page) on Thu, Jan 9, 14 at 2:18
| Much depends on the particular rose and the conditions. Also rootstock (if any). Laxa, commonly used in the UK, is probably less tolerant than other rootstocks. However I'm a firm believer that any rose and most any plant can be moved given enough elbow grease. If you have a rose that goes truly dormant (i.e. naturally looses all its leaves and there's no sign of sprouting) in your climate you can also move it as bare-root during its dormancy. Pruning the bush to suit the rootball (and also pruning the roots if you go the bare root way) is important for success. |
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| well moyesii definitely goes into quite a deep and long dormancy - like hardy hibiscus, it still looks totally lifeless, leafless and dried out till May. However, I am going to treat this as if it were a tree and allow myself 2 seasons to transplant it. I am an innocent when it comes to moving roses but, I have moved a couple of large trees. I am going to try to undercut the roots (because laxa is a tap-rooty beast) and get some good fibrous growth going this summer so I can keep a fairly intact rootball next November/December. This sounds like a fairly gentle way of doing it and it has the huge virtue of prevarication since I can go back to idling for a while till action is called for. Most grateful for the advice and encouragement. |
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- Posted by mariannese 5b (My Page) on Thu, Jan 9, 14 at 8:06
| We moved two huge roses 10 years ago and both had been in the ground for about the same time, a helenae and the rubiginosa Anne of Geirstein. We cut them down to about 20-40 centimetres before digging them out. We cut away all damaged roots. They grew back rather too quickly so we've shovel pruned Anne since then. I don't remember when we did the transplanting but it was probably in early spring, the time when our gardening energy returns. |
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| In my experience, R. moyesii roots very easily so why not take some cuttings of it instead of trying to move the whole thing? I have only moved one rose on laxa rootstock. You are right it is a tap-rooty beast with roots the size of tree roots. I had to excavate around each root and cut them with a pruning saw. The good news is the rose (Constance Spry) hardly noticed the abuse she had been subjected to. In the future I will think twice about moving roses on laxa rootstock even though rose relocation is somewhat of a pastime of mine (I moved 80 roses last spring). |
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a E of Athens (My Page) on Thu, Jan 9, 14 at 13:18
| Campanula, you can certainly do that 2 season thing but in my opinion there's absolutely no need to. Just move it during its dormancy even without any soil on it's roots and no fibrous roots whatsoever. New fibrous roots will start growing immediately after re-plant unless soil is frozen (if it is you shouldn't move the rose in the first place). Remember this was probably the way it was originally sold to you. Any plant that goes into winter dormancy can be moved bare root as long as it can be pruned hard. I tend to think that this can be a better way of moving a rose in its dormancy than carrying a root ball with it since you will avoid issues with rootball soil incompatibility with soil in the new spot drainage wise and you will also avoid the odd chance of the 'pot' syndrome (i.e. the new roots growing all around the rootball as if they were in a pot rather than growing into the new soil). If however you want to do this 2 season exercise, you will have to hard prune the rose twice. Since you mentioned hybiscus have you tried moving one? They have a huge hellical tap root that goes very very deep like a giant corkscrew. They are beasts to uproot and sensitive after that. I have successfully managed to move a 10 year old one almost bare root and with severely cut back root system and this in the beginning of the summer season. It took a drip irrigator and a couple of seasons for it to recover but recovered it has. Since I did that I have no fear to move any rose although this is not something I practice regularly. |
This post was edited by nikthegreek on Thu, Jan 9, 14 at 13:35
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- Posted by sherryocala 9A Florida (My Page) on Sun, Jan 12, 14 at 16:18
| Do it to it, Suzi. Better you than the dozer for your baby. Nik and Everyrose seem to know what they're talking about. I'm inclined to agree with them. And taking cuttings gets you lots of free plants. One question: why would a species rose be grafted on another rootstock? Everyrose, 80 roses moved? Sounds like fun. Sherry |
Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...
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| Sherry - there is not one nursery which offers ANY roses on their own roots, not a single one in the UK. I seriously considered doing this until the wood got in the way - I could have raised enough cuttings, I calculated, to make a tiny, but feasible income. However, there is a reason why I have been poor my whole life....because I am totally crap at dealing with either people or money so........ Nik, I did (move a hibiscus) but without any of the extra loving care such as irrigation....which is why it has taken 4 years for the thing to recover....but it did, at least, survive. Everyrose, I was going to do cuttings last year but the whole season just got away from me...and this summer is likely to be the same. However, going back to basics, I have been using some of the prunings to do hardwood cuttings (and these are a cert with moyesii)....there is a higher fail rate but on the plus side, it is more or less effortless and the cuttings can sit, practically forgotten about for the whole year. |
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a E of Athens (My Page) on Sun, Jan 12, 14 at 16:57
| Hi Sherry, 'One question: why would a species rose be grafted on another rootstock?' Main reason is propagation methods predominant in Europe. Buy a stock of understock from a specialized supplier (who grows it mainly from seed), plant it in a field and bud whatever on it. Then uproot and sell as bare-root plain or potted. For buds very efficient micro-propagation methods such as in vitro tissue culture are used by the larger growers. Now there might be some good sense in this other than the convenience of the nursery, such as suitability of the rootstock for the predominant conditions in your target market, something that may not be guarranteed for all species plants, but production convenience and success rate is the main reason AFAIK. |
This post was edited by nikthegreek on Sun, Jan 12, 14 at 17:27
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Sun, Jan 12, 14 at 20:20
| Wow - that is so amazing that anyone would produce species on other root stock! I realize that there are areas (evidently Florida is one of them) where local conditions prefer a particular root stock, but one of the main excuses given here (other than the truth you cite, which is the convenience & money of the nursery) is that some HT roses just do not grow well on their own roots at all. Evidently they were hybridized to be beautiful, but not to survive on their own roots, and they don't. This argument, of course, does not apply to species roses, which presumably evolved on their own roots quite happily. It does astound me that there are no nurseries in the UK that offer any roses on their own roots - there are tons here - more and more all of the time. Jackie |
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a E of Athens (My Page) on Mon, Jan 13, 14 at 1:07
| Hi Jackie, This is not a UK only thing, grafted roses only is the norm across Europe. I would venture a guess that there should be only a handful of professional nurseries selling own roots all across the continent. I happen to know only one, located in the South of France selling warm climate old roses like Teas etc. who propagate their roses by cuttings and this happens to be owned by Americans! Be aware that even now all new rose breeding in Europe by major hybridizers is done bearing in mind that the rose will be grafted. Selection is based on the performance of grafted roses and this applies to David Austin roses also. One thing I did not mention is that it should be, in theory, easier to control and contain virus dissemination when rootstock production is done by seeds and scion production is done by in vitro methods but this is a subject about which I only have rudimentary knowledge. |
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- Posted by kstrong 10 So Cal (kathystrong@gmail.com) on Mon, Jan 13, 14 at 12:49
| Give it a shot. The dearly beloved rose has got a better shot at survival no matter what you do than it does if just left behind to the dozers. And roses are remarkably able to cling to life even under bad circumstances. I've moved old roses dozens of times. They usually live. And if they die, well, at least I tried. |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Thu, Jan 16, 14 at 5:32
| Own root roses by Campanula. Why not? You'll have the space and your sweetie can handle the paperwork. And you have no competition for own roots. I love band roses and I would be sad if all US roses were sold grafted. I'm in agreement with everyone else. No harm in trying to move your favorite roses when you know what their fate is if you don't. I got estimates for tree trimming and finally just climbed up and did it myself yesterday. Big limbs were shading my rose bed and half of it was too shady for roses anymore. It was nervous work but it's done now. Sister watched so I didn't drop anything on people passing by. I'm so happy now. Areas that got only 2 hours of early morning sun are now sunny until 2:30 or 3 pm. And the place that was too shady for my one gallon camellias gets good light again. No one would come out just to do those 2 limbs and if they would they were going to charge a high rate. Now I have wood for the fireplace and my rose bed back. Just plan out your rose relocation and then go for it. |
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- Posted by PortlandMysteryRose 8 (My Page) on Mon, Jan 20, 14 at 20:38
| In PDX, I've moved 30-year-old ones which amazingly didn't croak! Weren't thrilled but didn't croak. |
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