http://paulzimmermanroses.com/?page_id=255
I put in Paul Zimmerman on google, brought up his page, and went to rose care. I don't know how to do links, but this is what I copy pasted.

Good luck.

I cut what I want to cut, and have learned the value of cutting off old canes after a few years, but I am not good at it. Paul has some videos, but I don't know how to get to them unless they are on this link.

Sammy

Sammy

Thanks, Sammy. In other words, be brave.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I have lost many roses as they reached about 6-8 years. I realize that I have enjoyed what I have seen, and have left them alone. For me that was a big mistake. If I understand the advice I have read, I should cut out the older canes starting at about 4 years, so the rose will become accustomed to sending out new shoots.

I also have feared cutting back the china and tea roses. I am not sure about some of the advice since whenever someone addresses this question, there are so many responses.

Also I often do not see freeze damage until I am afraid to cut. Mrs. B.R. Cant was beautiful in the spring. But that first flush is always on fall energy. After the first flush, the freeze damage seemed to begin affecting the rose, and ultimately I cat them back way too far. I think they would have been better off if I had cut out an older cane, encouraged new growth, then allowed the new growth to continue as later in June I would cut out the damaged canes.

In other words since I cut back everything at one, there was nothing to take in the water, photsynthesis, and everything else I don't understand. Towards the middle of July I realized that the roses were not dead. I messed up, but had seen a most beautiful display before all the canes began showing dark tan pith.

I hope someone else chimes in here - someone who can speak more factually. I am basically a right brained person, and do not always communicate well unless I truly understand what I am doing.

Here's what I do.
Climbers
First off, anything which is dead or on its way - ya know, all brown and wrinkly.
Then, any branches which are crossing or rubbing others - I take out the oldest or weakest - judgement call.
Then, I start thinning - anything which looks feeble- off...and I am not that circumspect about precise angled cuts above an outward bud...but you can be.
Finally, I choose which green and healthy canes are going to produce the most blooms. I pull these apart from the rest, if I can, then go along the entire cane, snipping every lateral to one or two buds - often about 10cm is left.
Ramblers
- I like to give these a summer prune but if I forget, I just cut a couple of gnarly old canes back from the base - sometimes just one and sometimes I just do a nick around a third of the cane. I cut off all the flowering branches from last year, at the ends where the stems have become congested, leaving short, unbranched laterals. Whatever, I want to see at least a couple of new canes arsing from near the base.
Shrubs - I dive in here, taking out anything dead, diseased or generally duff. Then I take out some twiggy growth, especially in the centre. Then, if I am trying to keep it within bounds, a further trimming, taking off between a third to as much as a half of all canes.
Polys and such - I use petrol hedgetrimmers - it looks brutal but they are fine.
If I am feeling tentative or anxious, put it off for a day and work up an invincible enthusiasm. Don't be mimsy, doing little trims here and there - be bold...or leave alone.
I have never killed anything by pruning (although I know some people have).

Sherry, it's still really early to be pruning at your latitude. We wait until at least the third week of February. What you don't want to do is prune heavily, have enough warm weather to encourage a lot of new growth, and then have another hard freeze.

Malcolm, I was thinking the same thing. If I cut now, they'll be putting out new growth in February (in fact, they've got new growth now), and then we'll get slammed with hard freezes like we always do in February and wham! Thanks, Malcolm. I'm guessing that in SoCal and other Cal places they don't get our hard freezes, and places like Northern Virginia don't get our warm weather early so they have little risk of new growth getting zapped. I'll wait a while.

Sherry

Paul Zimmerman's vids are just awesome! Check the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Paul Zimmerman Videos

If you look on the Vintage Gardens website, there is a wonderful essay by the owner on what he has figured out about pruning over the many decades he has taken care of thousands of roses. Might give you some comfort - basically he debunks most of the "you must do this" old rules of pruning.

Re Le Vesuve, I have three - two ancient ones, and one baby that is only about 8 years old. Whether it is a tea or a china (there is some dispute about this) doesn't matter. It has long, flexible canes that circle around and around, and produce sprays of very twiggy growth at the ends. This does not, in my garden, result in an "umbrella growth" look, because the twiggy umbrella growth bits are all over the rose, up, down, and sideways. It actually results in a rose bush that has a thick covering of leaves & flowers all over it from the top to the bottom, because the main canes go around in circles so much.

When I first moved here, I tried to prune out the dead growth. The problem was, this rose makes bushes that are self supporting, and get 8 feet high and wide here. Most of the dead growth is at the very bottom of the bush, and is actually supporting the rest of the bush. So, when I pruned it out, other parts of the bush collapsed down, and I ended up with a bush that was 6 feet high and 10 feet wide, which I did not want as now it was blocking the path!

I am sure that if you keep at it daily, you could end up with a show case specimen with no dead growth, but I do not have the time or inclination. So, I just pruned off the bits that are blocking the path and let the rest of it be. It eventually built up enough dead supporting growth at the bottom to re-achieve its original size & shape, which is how I like it.

Jackie

Great Vintage article on pruning, Jackie. Thanks for the tip!

Juliet

Here is a link that might be useful: Vintage Gardens Pruning Essay

I agree with the go slow crowd. It's always easier to cut more than to glue something back on! :-)

How you prune also depends on the age of plant and how you want it to grow in your garden. If you like a tall full bush then by all means don't use the standard cut to 12" exhibition pruning method.

If I can answer any questions from my videos don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks everyone. I've read Vintage's excellent articles and watched Paul's very informative videos. My question was specific to the plants that I mentioned, and you were all trying to be helpful even though you don't grow them, I guess. Jackie, my Le Vesuve is almost 2 years in this spot (it was in another spot for a year before that), and as you well know it's big. I can't just let it keep going like it is. I have to find out how to control it. Since Malcolm prunes all his teas pretty hard in February, I would imagine I can do that to Le Vesuve, but it grows very differently than other roses that I have. You really can not reach into it. It is solid growth. Even though this rose survives and even thrives this way apparently, instinctively I'd like to thin it out and size it down. If it begins the spring as it is, there's no tellin' where it will wind up - probably blocking MY driveway, too, 12 feet away! These photos were taken last week, and that's a 6' round bed.

{{gwi:224863}}
{{gwi:224865}}
{{gwi:224866}}
{{gwi:224867}}

Also, I'm thinking of cutting Red Cascade back to 12" in hopes of it growing into the same size it did last year. Does anyone think that's a good idea?

There's room for Blush Noisette to keep going and it's young, so should I let it?

Fountaining Hybrid Musks...do I take a little off the ends, cut it back one-third, or what?

My problem is that I don't know what they're supposed to look like when I'm done. I understand there's no rules anymore, but I need just a little guidance. Is one-third a good idea?

Thanks.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

hi, Sherry,
Here is a link to some pics and description of how Cass/Berndoodle prunes her Le Vesuve. Scroll down a little to get to LV. Maybe taking off some of those leaves to see what you're doing will help, too. Gean

Here is a link that might be useful: Berndoodle Prunes Le Vesuve

I'm glad you started this thread Sherry. Berndoodle's comments regarding Le Vesuve are really helpful! My only problem is that three of mine are located at the edge of or partly down a steep slope. I'll have to think long and hard whether it's worth the risk.

Ingrid

Oh, Gean, you are the sweetest angel. What a magnificent find, and Cass' genius can not be overstated! I am eternally in debt to both of you. All of her examples are so useful.

Ingrid, I hope we both come out alive after this venture but unscathed would be too much to hope. I fear there will be blood - mine. Hopefully, not yours. I need to bite the bullet and get a pair of gauntlets. Now.

Happy pruning!

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I agree with you about Cass, Sherry!

OK, Gean, you're the sweetest, humblest angel. :))

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Speaking of Vintage Gardens, here is another treasure on pruning

Here is a link that might be useful: Gregg Lowery on Pruning

Sherry - looks like Cass' instructions re Le Vesuve are tailor made for you! Your rose looks like it is just the size at which she recommends pruning.

Just for your amusement, wanted to let you know that the picture of the 100 year old Le Vesuve Cass posted is the one I was talking about in my garden. After my first misadventure pruning it, I left it alone, except for trimming it off the path (which is behind it in the picture). It looks and is huge, but I wanted to let you know that we have since discovered that the picture is actually of TWO Le Vesuves next to each other - at some point it tip rooted, and there are two main old canes - one is 8 inches across, and the "baby" is only 4 inches across.

Jackie

Jackie

Wow, that Le Vesuve is amazing, or the two I should say, beautiful! Just how big is it?!

Yes, thanks Sherry for starting this, very informative.
~Meghan

I spent Saturday pruning a massive tea at the Sacramento Cemetery with Cass. It was a fabulous learning experience. She taught me so much. She takes out the old, dead stuff first. Then she goes through looking for those forks where too many shoots are coming out. She thins to the two biggest and best placed ones. If she needs to shorten canes, she cuts the two remaining arms of the forks the same length. This is important or the bigger one will steal from the smaller one. This part can be a little tricky trying to find bud eyes on approximately the same place on both canes. Then she steps back and looks to shape into a snowball shape. Viola! A beautiful tea next year.

The tea we pruned was a massive old thing so these instructions are for mature teas.

Thanks Cass for a great afternoon!!

Debbie

Debbie, thanks for sharing your experience Saturday. You filled in some gaps and emphasized some points nicely. Reducing canes from those clusters to a single fork is brilliant. I hope Cass knows she's brilliant.

Meghan, it won't be too long until you have to do this since I see you ordered Le Vesuve.

Jackie, 8" canes are amazing. I'll see how big mine are when I get pruning, and I'll take pictures so I'll remember what he looked like when he was a baby.

Landperson, Gregg's articles really are a treasure.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Hi Sherry. I agree with Malcolm about waiting until the third week in February. Some rosarians in Ocala start around Valentines day but not before. I usually didn't touch mine until the end of February.

I was always told to never cut back any of the teas more than a third. Mrs. BR Cant in particular could become ugly if you do and will certainly resent it. She is best left pretty much to do her own thing with only a nip and a tuck.

I think teas look the best if allowed to grow the size they want to be with cutting blooms as my on-going pruning. If I had a period of time when I didn't cut blooms I followed the no more than a third rule....usually much less than that. I don't think I ever cut more than 1/4 off. However, I did clean up any dead stuff, spindly weak canes and anything that rubbed against each other enough to cause injury in the wind. I think it is good to open up a little bit of air circulation inside the bush.

Hybrid teas can be cut back by half but no more than down to knee height.

I fertilize with organic fertilizer at the same time, with anything quicker release than that about two weeks after pruning.

Sandy

Hey, Sandy!! How's the house coming...and the garden? Hope everything is going well and on schedule.

Thanks for the tips. I won't be touching the teas except for clean-up stuff. Just the ones I mentioned at the top of this thread.

Hope you're back to stay.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Hi Sherry,

We are under construction and the house is almost totally "dried in". I had some trouble deciding on a few window placements, but we were able to support the structure until we worked it out. Today we placed our window order, and they will arrive in about 3 weeks. I think we're realistically looking at about May before we can move in. We're doing tongue and groove cypress inside rather than sheetrock, so that is going to add to the timeframe. I am also very good with wood, and very fussy, so I will be doing the finishing work on it myself.

I might have mentioned before that we are building the old Florida Cracker style house with a full wrap around porch, and log siding. I love it and it is becoming everything we envisioned. I am starting to picture roses and trellises around it. I can't wait to get my hands dirty in the soil again!!!! Things have taken longer than we expected, but it took a long time to design things out and get it the way we want. My husband spent a few months engineering the structure out, and then there is the permit process, etc.

I have great plans for gardens, but they have been on hold for the time being. I just couldn't design a house and work on building it and break new garden ground at the same time. I do have a few roses planted and they are doing well. The greatest joy about these old teas is that they are so beautiful despite total neglect. The potted ones have been sorely negelcted and I will be lucky to have more than a handful come out of it O.K.

Your Le Vesuve is gorgeous. I wouldn't do a whole lot to him (or her). I think if you just do a little cleaning up and nothing drastic you'll have armloads of blooms this year.

I can see some chickens running around in my future too. The locals tell me they are wonderful bug eaters.

Sandy

And they make eggs and manure. Sounds like it will be wonderful. I love that style house. Enjoy the journey!

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Sherry, I love that you asked the pruning question ;-)!

I am very impressed by your Le Vesuve. The plant is so vigorous and healthy looking but I would be intimidated by the thought of pruning it. I have never seen a rose that is so twiggy growing.

My Le Vesuve is much smaller than yours and is still living in a pot, but I don't look forward to keep him in check in the future, since I am most likely not able to give him the room to grow to the full size that he wants to. Thanks to your thread I have already an idea what to do in the future, which makes it less scary.

Christina

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Garden Dreams